Was it today??

[JapJok]

Well in all the excitement of the past 17 years I've forgotten!

Go ahead. Make may day!!!....... somebody tell me was it today or yesterday.
Whatever it is/was, I suppose there will be effigies burning right across the world tonight/last night, and a million tears shed into beer glasses as the inevitable dissection goes on, and on, and on.......

We really pharqed them as promised. Here I am flying a heap of $hite in the land of the rising sun when it could have been domestic in Australia. Not even VB would have mer back in spite of being one of the party faithful.

So sad.

[gas-chamber]

The only thing sad is the people who still live in those times. Old proverb says never look back 'cos sumthin' might be gaining on you.

[SM4 Pirate]

T'was yesterday, the 23rd...

[Capn Bloggs]

Yes. :ok:

Those who ignore history do so at their own peril.

[019360]

Actually SM4 it was the 24th. And not just because of that, every thinking airline pilot should have Capn Bloggs post tattooed on the back of his/her hand. It has, especially for Australia, never been truer that history can warn and teach but only for those wanting to listen and learn.

[JapJok]

019360, Absolutely correct!! Go to the top of the class, and not a bad suggestion to have the tattoo just in case I make the same mistake again.

History taught me never to trust the union because its agenda may not be the same as mine or the best one. In this case it was certainly wide of the mark.

Great point you made.

[019360]

Hmmmmm JapJok....so if only you had known you could have acted differently than all of your fellow pilots agreed to in secret ballots? I would worry about that a little. This is not a day for cheap points scoring. As we speak the AWA time-bomb is ticking away underneath AIPA.

In fact the hypothetical tattoo we talk of is there to remind us that any time one pilot (or indeed a small group) decide to follow a different path than the vast majority of their fellows, then there is the potential for disaster. If you wish to preach the mantra of "I know best" then maybe, just maybe, your philosphy is part of the problem and not part of the solution.

Anyway, enjoy the day and safe flying.

[JapJok]

If only you had known how I did vote 019360, and I was one of the minority, a very small minority I believe, who voted against the course of action subsequently taken.

So how is the AWA time bomb different today from what it was last year or will be next year? The management has always wanted us for less, but now it's a different tool, the AWA.

Perhaps if the AIPA had admitted the Impulse/Jetstar pilots when requested instead of telling them "you are not real Qantas pilots," they may now have the extra muscle they need to fight this threat.

As for knowing best, I may not always be in that position, but neither was the union in 89, and there could be little convincing argument that they were.

Please do not confuse a majority voting in a particular way, and what is right, either for the majority or for any individual within the group.

No cheap points scoring intended, and I will enjoy my flying today and always, and hopefully I will contribute to keeping it safe.

[john_tullamarine]

As disinformation and lack of timely information played a role at that time .. one can only imagine how a vehicle such as PPRuNe might have changed the course of Australian Industrial history ....

[JapJok]

exactly john tulla. I don't think it would have been nearly the same outcome, but we'll never know now.

[jack red]

I think it was summed up nicely on the 12 November 1989 by the then President of the AFAP:

What of wage determination? There never was one. After all the righteous outbursts from the Airlines, Governments and its Ministers, the ACTU and the AIRC, the Americans and those others who joined them received salary rises of between 40 and 100%. Salaries for Airline pilots who now work in the Industry have been increased beyond their wildest dreams. The problem for management, the Government and the ACTU is that 1,300 pilots of the Federation and their families were not prepared to pay their price.

What of the union extermination ? A combination of the most abhorrent and anti-labour practices ever employed in the free world could not break the spirit, principle and integrity of over 80% of Australia’s domestic airline pilots and their families. In a country where mateship, and sticking by your mates is the quality most admired and respected, these are the people who have been put to the that test, and passed.



Amen.

[JapJok]

Is your nom de plume Jack Red or Jack the Red??

As a student of the 89 thing, and a winner according to you, but a loser according to me, I can tell you authoritively that there was a 30% pay rise awarded to pilots for a 30% increase in productivity, i.e., 40 hours a month (AFAP figure even though the companies disputed this and said it was 30/month) increased by 30% = 53.3, rounded up to 55 with overtime paid above that figure.

If you then flew 90 hours, it was an increase of 125% above the pre thing figure of 40, so would realistically attract an increase of 125% income. Why is there difficulty with that concept? My understanding is that the comanies weren't opposed to a pay rise but it had to fit "the accord", i.e., more money, more productivity, again a simple concept and one that they embraced.

"Salaries for Airline pilots who now work in the Industry have been increased beyond their wildest dreams. Except if you work for VB whose chief pilot sold his colleagues down the drain for a handsome holding in shares freeof charge but recently worth 20+ Million $$. VB pilots work for half that paid to QF pilots with no overtime provisions.

Those salaries "beyond their wildest dreams" are not as much as, for example, Cathay pays, but those enjoying those salaries don't feel they are being paid "beyond their wildest dreams".
I recently re-read an old diary written by my grandfather who fought at Gallipoli. In it he said that sticking by your mates was a fine ideal, but not realistic, especially when the Turks were shooting your mates, and if you didn't look after yourself first, then you would be shot also. A fine ideal indeed, but not always (or often)practical, especially if dud information had you headed for certain slaughter. Need I draw the obvious analogy??

The fact that 80% of Australia's airline pilots chose an alternative was never a problem for the managements and government. It was a bonus for the management; salaries cost them a fraction of what they had previously (2/3 the pilots doing 2.5 times the flying for an average of twice the previous salary). The government indicated that it was prepared to flex its muscle to reign in a 'rogue' union and read the riot act to other like minded unions. Hawke's standing improved enormously because he kept the accord intact against an attack by 'a privileged group of workers'.

As I said above, success oir failure is a matter for the individual to decide upon. We've all heard of winning the battle but losing the war.
There is something that is more highly admired in my home country than mateship and what it implies, and that is individualism and the ability to think for oneself when the $hite hits the fan. Do I follow my 'mates' to certain slaughter, or do I do what is required to survive? Easy decision.

Incidentally where is the "then president of the AFAP". Isn't he working for a sub standard salary at VB, one the chief pilot negotiated to improve his personal wealth by $$20 Million ++? Isn't he also the one who wouldn't take a backward step and insisted on almost 30% with no tradeoffs.....until it was obviously lost and then "just wanted to negotiate".

Amen also

[jack red]

Read it again Mate...........

................could not break the spirit, principle and integrity of over 80% of Australia’s domestic airline pilots and their families. In a country where mateship, and sticking by your mates is the quality most admired and respected, these are the people who have been put to the that test, and passed.


...............and with all due respect to your grandfather, I'm glad I wasn't fighting side by side with him in NAM.

[JapJok]

So red, presumably you've done sufficient scientific research to determine that

In a country where mateship, and sticking by your mates is the quality most admired and respected,

Would you care to publish the research references so that I can check for myself??

OK, I got it. It's your opinion and has no scientific basis.

Is that Pekenham you draw reference to?? Too bad if it was Vietnam, because I have mates who hold exactly the same sentiments as my grandfather, and that is look after yourself first

[jack red]

Jap Jok mateship is not a science my friend. It is a mode of conduct among Australian men that stresses equality, friendship, and solidarity.

Indeed it was Vietnam to which I refer and I can only hope that your mates whom share the same sentiments as your grandfather are not in the military.

[019360]

JapJok....you are protesting way too much. If you need to get something off your chest do it elsewhere. Professional help is always there if something is haunting you.

Almost all your former colleagues have lived with their choices and I still hold my head high. Don't rain on our picnic please. There are lessons to be learned and you know what they are. Small groups breaking away can almost always get a better deal here and there. but in the end when the whole structure dies (remember Ansett, TAA, EWA, IPEC) then its everyones loss. In the end it was just ahandful of "me first" guys who created the world we have today. There are bettwer worlds ahead....I hope....but they will come from professionalism and solidarity, not...."I just had to make a decision for my family"

[priapism]

They may have passed the mateship test , but lemmings do too.

Now watch this thread degenerate into another pre and post 89 bitch fight.

[JapJok]

OK red, I now have it after lengthy explanation from you.

Mateship is a state of mind, the same state of mind the former CP of VB displayed (equality, friendship and soldarity) when he screwed his former mates to accept half the going rate so he could receive $20 M in shares!!

Equality, friendship and solidarity indeed! I still argue that it is the ability to think as an individual that is more highly regarded than the so called qualities of 'mateship'. Any loser can follow the leader, in some cases into oblivion.

013690, you guys always fall back on the 'help is available' line when you're cornered. Doesn't wash,sorry. None of the airlines you mention areout of business because of the events of which we write. Nice try, but fantasy. No further argument on that issue will be entertained becaus e you know you're talking bull$hit.

priapism, let's hope it doesn't degenerate into what you mention, but you make a valid point. Mob mentality is adangerous thing as many, including me, have found to our great cost. This thread was definitely not intended to be what you suggest.

[019360]

Nevertheless, the current and next generation have to somehow work out how to build a better system. Can it work with a "me first" attitude? Isn't that what the AIPA guys acuse JPC of? How can you/we reconcile the need for solidarity (and yes it does often work) with individualism?

[019360]

Anyway, we had a good party and remembered some good times. And have few regrets. Thank goodness for red wine.

Safe flying

[Old Aggie]

Sui Generis!:) :)

[Bolty McBolt]

Correct me if I am wrong, for I was young in the airline industry at the time but...

Didn't the pilots in the 89 dispute resign.

Imagine if that tactic was tried today, there would be no need for a prime minister to intervene

We should all learn from history to prevent repitition of mistakes !
:ok:

[Desert Dingo]

OK. I'll correct you then.
That's the wrong question.
You should have asked "WHY did they resign?"
Search the archives here and you will find enough information and heated debate to keeep you occupied for months.

[Redstone]

I may be just a simple greaser, however from an outsiders perspective the question I would have asked is why you would resign from a company, loose your bargaining power and then keep banging on about it for the next 17 years. If you walk out you risk the gate being locked behind you.....:}

[019360]

Good point. And some might also ask was it necessary to bankrupt an entire industry, losing 4 fine airlines in the process, rather than talk to a group of pilots through their union?

[JapJok]

I suppose the simple answer to that 019360 is that we resigned and the companies felt no obligation to talk with former employees. I'd be doing the same thing in their positions if I wanted to cut numbers, get rid of the rabble, save money, and take a position of strength against the union that had virtually run the airlines for years.

I see you're still plugging the 'lost four fine airlines' BS. That's fantasy and well you know it. It's also irresponsible misleading young Bolty on the issue.

Jack Red, I think you're labouring under a gross misunderstanding of what 'mateship' is all about.
The qualities you mention, i.e., equality, friendship, and solidarity. are indeed fine qualities, but you must look afteryourself. I bet not one of your mates from Nam would put you before themselves or follow you into a situation where certain slaughter was the only result to contemplate. If they would, then I have serious doubs about their sanity.

I also have great difficulty with anybody who would put their so called mates before their family. That wasn't why I went down the path I did, rather it was a misguided sense of loyalty to the union.

019360, I also enjoyed a couple of Kirins and contemplated the past 17 years. I too have few regrets, but one looms large.

BAE146, even if woomera is watching, there can be no intervention if it's kept civilized, and it's certainly that right now.

DD, Bolty didn't ask the wrong question at all. He may have asked the additonal question on why we resigned, but his question is a valid one. We did resign, thereby foregoing our right to a ticket back thorugh the door except at the discretion of the boss. An American import told me that he was interviewed and offered a job, with a start date pending, long before we resigned.

Tactically the union was outmanouvered at every turn, 'forcing' the resignations (which, incidentally, the AFAP management assured us were not going to be served) thereby putting the companies in the box seat, and us in the rear stalls, or even outside the hall.

[BAE146]

I think Desert Dingo has the right advice for everyone - do a search, it's all there.
I reckon Woomera has been keeping a close watch on this one and I'm sure I heard the faint sound of "metal to metal" (ie *click*) a couple of responses back.;)

[019360]

Hmmmm....so if Ansett et al didn't get buried by their own management incompetence and intransigience (hope I got that spelling right!)....where are they now?

[JapJok]

There's no doubt you're correct when you say they're not around, but due to 'incompetence and management intransigence' I would say is a matter of speculation. As pilots, we are very critical of airline managements but without management training, we do not much more than guess at whether they are good or bad managers. Certainly anything that doesn't go our way is seen as incompetent management.

You may find a dozen different theories on the Ansett demise, or perhaps a hundred.

I would suggest the most plausible reasonfor the AN collapse was that is was forced on AirNZ by Anderson, the then minister for transport and who later quit the ministry with a dodgey prostate), a situation not unlike the Alice Aprings Aero Club buying Skywest. I know they had first rights, but the government can block those deals in the national interest. If SQ had bought in, it would have been very different. Once again we can only speculate on why Anderson blocked the SQ buy and vitually forced it upon Air NZ.

Now onto the real issue you once again raise. The events of 89 had nothing to do with the demise of ANsett 12 years down the track. It's that simple. To suggest so is a simplistic, mischievous, and a pathetic attempt to blame it on those on whom you would like to blame everything from ingrown toenails to haemorrhoids.

[Brian Abraham]

Our CP (GA outfit) at the time was a staunch AFAP man but nearly all the pilots were of the opinion that the AFAP was on a hiding to nothing with the stance they were taking. Then again the pilots may have been blinkered by their own experience with the AFAP. The pilots did all their own negotiations under the auspices of the AFAP when they were all members, but the AFAP told them that unless they toed the party line they would have a certain union engaged in the building industry show them the error of their ways. The result was a mass exodus from the AFAP and creation of their own union.

[max autobrakes]

I'm also quite reliably told by the gentleman involved ,that as the dispute was escalating the Industrial Relations Judge presiding over this case asked the AIPA Industrial Officer at the time to try and pass on a message to the AFAP in order to try and defuse what was by then being seen as a potential catastrophe.
The message was ,apply for a 15% pay rise and the Industrial Court would be favourably predisposed towards such a request.
The AFAP said bugger off, it's 30% or nothing, and ladies and gentlemen the rest is history. :ouch:

[019360]

Ah Japjok, and here was I thinking Pollyanna was a fictional character. Please don't wear those rose-coloured glasses in the cockpit will you.

Though to be fair, about the demise of Ansett, I don't suppose even the AFAP at its best had the clout to force Ansett to buy one of every jet ever made, pay vast amounts to pilots on individual contracts, refuse to talk to the legal representative of a large group of employable pilots, be the only airline to fly the 767 with an F/E, totally screw up the CRJ intordution and then try and start international air services in possibly the most spectacularly unsuitable and inept way ever done.

So maybe we should end this by agreeing that the dispute was horrible, the AFAP might have been a little flawed, and that just possibly, Sir Peter wasn't perfect either.

[max autobrakes]

So that's why Qantas is going the way it is.
All those ex-Ansett people now in Qantas management.:}