Now pilots = school principals

[murgatroid]

AJ interview on radio 2GB today.

The salary that J* is offering pilots is very good compared to a school principal.

Outstanding comparison, where does he get this stuff?

[RENURPP]

I wasn't aware that headmasters worked weekends or shift work or overnights or paid $30k for their training as headmaster, or were regualarly required to have medicals, check flights or sim sessions or ep's or dangerous goods any of which can end our career.

I generally like the Irish, but I can see why there are so many jokes about them!

[Capn Bloggs]

And I don't think pilots get 10 weeks off work a year, RIGHT in the middle of the schools holidays, EVERY YEAR. Now that would make planning your leave easy...

[Howard Hughes]

I don't know why you all have this incessant need to compare our industry with others, it is an extremely unique industry and whilst conditions have seen a downturn in recent times, I for one expect to see improvement soon.:hmm:

This industry may have some very tedious downsides (as you are all quick to point out), but it also provides it's own opportunites for those enterprising enough to take part, in life, all things are trade off. Take me for example, like all of you I may bitch and moan about rostering, pay, overnigths, etc... But in the last twelve months I have been overseas with my family 3 times, compare this to my friends, many of whom have never left Australia and the majority who probably never will!! Whilst they may earn considerably more than I do, International travel is but a dream for most of them.

You have to weigh up the good with the bad, when the bad out weighs the good it's time to leave, the door is always open. Of course it's much easier to stay put and shout, "the sky is falling".....;)

[Jetsbest]

I think, if you refer to Murgatroid's post, it is AJ, the CEO of Jetstar, who's doing the industrial comparisons on this occasion. Perhaps you should talk to him about relevance! :ugh:

[alidad]

RENUURP,
A mate said to once that there was no such thing as Irish jokes--IT'S ALL TRUE.

[SM4 Pirate]

When the ATCs had a dispute over the EBA about 5 years back, we were compared to similar occupations, namely 24/7 facilities like the Broadmeadows Ford assembly factory. Nice to know how the management types really feel about the people at the sharp end.

I liked the Chaser skit a few weeks back, where Julian asked AJ how much it would cost to stand "this close to him" (about 1 metre), and then how much it would cost to "call him a prick", then "an utter prick"; of course that was in relation to the job interview fee...

But how much does it cost, line-up, line-up...

[murgatroid]

Thinking about it. There probably is a bit in common.

School principals spend their days dealing with disruptive immature children, who lie, cheat, lack respect and who should know better.

A lot like dealing with management.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Sounds to me like they're sticking another PR nail in the pilot coffin...next they'll be comparing pilots to sundry other jobs...a slowly they will have got the message out to the public that these whinging pilots are paid more than ALL OF YOU and still they whinge:sad: :ugh:

[Howard Hughes]

Jetsbest,

I realise that it is AJ making the comparison in this case, but there have been numerous other times on these forums when pilots have been compared with anything from bus drivers (although thats generally management), to High Court Judges and everything in between.

My point was that if an individual finds themselves in a position where they feel under valued they can always vote with their feet! Comparing our skills with any other profession serves no purpose, this is an extremely unique profession that requires a unique skillset and has rewards that sometimes can't be measured in dollars and cents. So the only question that remains is how much each individual values themselves, when the good outweighs the bad, it's time to retire, or if your still young enough, buy a boat and go fishing...:ok:

[Toluene Diisocyanate]

My point was that if an individual finds themselves in a position where they feel under valued they can always vote with their feet!
Interesting. Thats the exact same attitude Easterns management holds. Their pilots are taking this sage advice that the new chief pilot is offering. IN DROVES:}
Last one out please turn the lighs off?:suspect:
Don't worry about the clusterfuk that's the 400. You'll have no-one left to fly it anyhow:ugh:

[B A Lert]

My point was that if an individual finds themselves in a position where they feel under valued they can always vote with their feet!

As Buster's friend Magna would surely say "Lordy, Lordy. How often have we read this sentiment in various guises in these forums?"

It really is very simple: if you don't like what is on offer or what is being done, shut up and ship out. There are so many who just don't get the fact that the times are-a-changin'.

[JapJok]

Whoever said it is right.

Most pilots don't have degrees, and only about one in 50 teachers will ever head the team as the Principal whereas better than one in two will head the team as the Captain.

Is a principal worth more or less? I don't know, and surely there can't be a comparison the fields are so different.

Bear in mind that the guy in charge will do everything to devalue your job so he can justify paying you less. That's what you have to combat, not the comparisons.

BA Lert you're right. The times are a changin, and not just for us, but everybody. The industrial reforms that swept the world over the past 10-15 years are just starting to bite here. Good luck.

Howard I agree with you.

[Keg]

Is a principal worth more or less? I don't know, and surely there can't be a comparison the fields are so different.

There can be comparisons done and I reckon I have an answer to the question. I also come from a position of authority whereby both my parents and an older brother are all school adminstrators (Dad now supposedly retired but he keeps going back for more consulting stuff).

It has been the subject of considerable discussion around the dinner table over the years. The verdict- invariably reached when I've missed another birthday or Christmas or whatever and aren't there to have an overt influence on the decision- is that I'm worth every penny I'm paid and probably worth a whole lot more. They also acknowledge that the issue isn't that pilots are overpaid but that school administrators are under paid- a point that Joyce doesn't articulate at all! :rolleyes:

[Going Boeing]

Which of the Jestar pilot salaries was AJ using to compare with school Principals?

1. J* Intl cruise relief F/O's
2. J* Intl F/O's
3. J* Dom F/O's
4. J* Dom Capt's (approx $130k)
5. J* Intl Line Capt's (approx $140k) - thanks JPG
6. J* Intl Line Capt's Ex Sandpit (approx $180k)
7. J* Intl Trng Capt's Ex Sandpit (approx $220k)

[Centaurus]

Certainly interesting comparisons. Although I wonder why "Training Captains" (International or local) are paid a higher salary than ordinary line pilots. In the RAAF each squadron had a QFI/IRE which means Qualified Flying Instructor and Instrument Rating Examiner. There was no extra money involved because we were paid by rank (Flight Lieutenant, Squadron Leader etc) and to be selected as a QFI at an operational squadron was considered to be quite a privilege. The extra responsibilities were willingly taken on the shoulders. Not so, evidently, in civil aviation where even having an instrument rating is worth an increment in The Award system if it still exists.

[Ejector]

I don’t see how people can complain about J* anymore. In my opinion the company offered a package below what I consider the average package out there around the world, probably expecting to have to raise it to get people to work for them, but no, folks gave in and flocked to them for some reason only known to them selves. Not a problem, just don’t ask me for support. :ugh:

[Mud Skipper]

No Ejector, I don't think people flocked but forced J* to partially come to the market. Sure the JPC accepted a cr@p deal that did not mean 330 drivers would come home without barganing...

I seriously hope the EK guys were able to get 180-220 and have heard some even negotiated around 250K. Guess they had to sign confidentiality agreements so as to not offend the J* guys/gals, sold out by RH & co., so we may never know the truth.

Hear another 15 are also leaving the sandpit, hope this helps the P&C in EK.... may want to work their one day.

[Gnadenburg]

Certainly interesting comparisons. Although I wonder why "Training Captains" (International or local) are paid a higher salary than ordinary line pilots. In the RAAF each squadron had a QFI/IRE which means Qualified Flying Instructor and Instrument Rating Examiner. There was no extra money involved because we were paid by rank (Flight Lieutenant, Squadron Leader etc) and to be selected as a QFI at an operational squadron was considered to be quite a privilege. The extra responsibilities were willingly taken on the shoulders. Not so, evidently, in civil aviation where even having an instrument rating is worth an increment in The Award system if it still exists.

Maybe that's why the RAAF has retention problems.

The trouble with 'prestige' is it attract the wrong people as trainers- officious, incapable types. I have seen airlines lose millions of dollars with poor trainers when type introduction is cocked up or expansion windows missed.

Money talks. You know who are the capable guys who belong in training- pay for it and go and get them!

[Metro man]

RAAF = Free training & Good T&C. Defending your country
G/A = Self funded training, poor pay and conditions. Getting shafted making some businessman rich.
If the boss is making money off me I want something in exchange for my efforts and recognition of what I paid to get the I/R in the first place.:hmm:

[Danger Mouse]

Bosses are often getting LESS money than you. DOn't you realise it is an industry where profit margins are LOW and that it is difficult dealing with all the uncontrollable costs (CASA, AIrports, Airservices, Fuel). If you don't like it where you are LEAVE. It just brings everyone else down if you stay.

If you feel UNDERVALUED -MAKE YOURSELF VALUABLE instead of winging. Winging people are not valued. People who are proactively fixing problems are. You have more control over your desiny than you think!

[Gnadenburg]

Bosses are often getting LESS money than you. D


Which airline is that says Penfold!:zzz:

[Metro man]

If any boss is working for wages GA pilots get, he's in the wrong game. He should get a job in KMART instead because they pay better than alot of pilots are making.

I know what I should do, work for less so he can stay in business and just be grateful I have a job. That way things will eventually improve :ugh:

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

RAAF = Free training

Try telling someone who must give the RAAF 10 years of their life in exchange for the training, that is is free.

[Metro man]

I don't see them having to draft people for pilot training even in wartime like the walking army have to. Ever hear of anyone called up and forced to become a pilot. Return of service obligations laid down in writing, no secret

How many RAAF pilots working second jobs to pay for their next endorsement ?

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Well if it's such a great deal, why you didn't do it?

There is only ever two reasons why not:

1. Applied and got knocked back; OR,

2. Didn't want to do it because the "price" (ROSO, military lifestyle) was too high.

There is a price for everything. Military pilots pay it along with everyone else.

[Runaway Gun]

All RAAF Pilots have second jobs. Although they are generally called secondary duties, which can consist of numerous concurrent jobs - mostly unrelated to aviation.

Then there's the desk jobs....


It's not a free aviation career - the boys and girls work very hard for it.

[ITCZ]

I don't know why you all have this incessant need to compare our industry with others, it is an extremely unique industry.....

You mean, our job is Sui Generis?

Now there's an idea. Why hasn't anyone thought of that before?

:ugh:

[ITCZ]

Bosses are often getting LESS money than you.

I'd like to earn as 1/2 much as GD.

I wouldn't mind earning 1/2 as much as the guy I flew C210 for. He has a nice big house overlooking the water and has got around in a newish Porsche for at least 15 years.

I wouldn't mind earning 1/2 as much as the guy I flew Metros for. He has a nice big house overlooking some other patch of water and a thumping great yacht parked out the front if he feels like finding out what is over the horizon.

DM, you gotta stop believing everyone else's hard luck stories.

[Point0Five]

How many RAAF pilots working second jobs to pay for their next endorsement ?

No need, they made sure they got a decent job the first time around :ok:

[Howard Hughes]

You mean, our job is Sui Generis?
Exactly!!:ok:

[Eagleman]

People are out most precious resource

Who gives a rats if ADF pilots don't pay for endoresements, who gives a rats if they have secondary duties.

I would have at a guess that ACM Houston and even the previous CDF, now QF boardmember, General Cosgrove, have (had) respect for their people.

Do our Chiefs, Dixon and the gnome, have respect for their people? It is resounding NO.

An undersized gnome compared us to School Principals. School Principals are good people, thanks Al Earlier this year he said that he wasn't worried about burning pilots out, 'cause there are plently more out there. Gee Al, that not nice. Wasting people, there have been court cases to deal with that sort of behaviour.

(I understand the recent staff survey was so bad that Dixon won't even show it to GGM's!! The 9th floor is dead scared that it will leak and the public will find out that Geoff's image as master CEO is all spin doctoring. The survey result was disgraceful and puts Qantas at the bottom the barrel when compared to other Australian companies. Media and Analysts, why don't you ask about that?)

IMHO neither Dixon nor the gnome are suitable persons to hold positions under the CAR's.

Sadly, it will take a Monarch or Seaview to reveal what we all know. If only CASA and/or the ATSB were proactive. Instead we will have to wait to read -

Safety recomendation R#####

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau recommends that the Civil Aviation Safety Authority review the suitability of persons holding positions under Section 28 of the Civil Aviation Act 1988, Regulations and Orders.

[Elroy Jettson]

Sorry to drag you all back to the topic, does any one know what a private school headmaster earns? :confused:

[theheadmaster]

Let us look at this the other way around. You are a school principal and have been compared to a pilot. You decide to do some on line research and whilst doing so you find this forum. You see the standard of spelling and grammar used by many of the posters and decide that whoever made the comparison has done you a grave injustice.

[Point0Five]

What a wonderful first post :ok:

[mingalababya]

Sorry to drag you all back to the topic, does any one know what a private school headmaster earns? :confused:

The top of the range for a Prinicpal from the government sector in Victoria would be around 140K.

http://www.educationworld.net/salaries_aus.html

As much as a Qantas SO?

[Keg]

As much as a Qantas SO?

More than the average 767 F/O- and the principal doesn't have the chance to lose their job seven or so times a year!

Again though this shouldn't be about how much a principal is or isn't paid. I've seen the work load first hand and I've seen the stress, the angst, the out of hours work and even the physical assault that comes with school administration. They are woefully underpaid. Whether what they do earn should be compared with pilots is a nonsense however I keep going back to the issues my family articulate. Whilst they reckon they deserve more ( :E ); they reckon I'm not paid nearly enough for the back of clock flying, jet lag, feeling like crap, missing birthdays, anniversaries, Christmas, stuff that crew go through on a daily basis.

[Howard Hughes]

They reckon I'm not paid nearly enough for the back of clock flying, jet lag, feeling like crap, missing birthdays, anniversaries, Christmas, stuff that crew go through on a daily basis.
Is it realy that bad?:hmm:

[Going Boeing]

Is it realy that bad?:hmm:

@@@#### Yep :ugh:

[Capt Claret]

For the 10th anniversary of my meeting Mrs C, I'll have the pleasure of an EPs intructor, playing make-believe in a airyplane, after it's finished flying for the day.

This xmas I'll be working my 4th xmas in a row.

Howard, I'd agree with Keg. It's a fact of the job but not too many of us take the job so we can miss the important family functions.

[Transition Layer]

I think it's impossible to compare the relative worth of two such different professions as these.

However, to put it into perspective, my old man has been teaching for over 35 years. He has a Bachelor degree and a Masters in Educational Administration. He has been a High School deputy principal for 10+years. He still hasn't managed to score a principal job (admittedly he has probably been a little fussy about which schools he goes to - same happens in our industry). Only a very small % crack the top job, whilst in reality, anyone who keeps their nose clean and works hard when required should crack a command once they get into an airline.

Not a fair comparison, looking at it from both sides of the fence.

TL