Why are there so little cockpit announcements? [Archive]

Getoutofmygalley

23rd Aug 2006, 09:07

Speaking as Cabin Crew but not a Pilot, I see the passengers reaction when you get a chatty pilot who makes a lot of PA's and that the passengers generally want him (or her) to just shut up!

Whilst passengers who have a fear of flying might want an explanation of every single noise or bump that is felt, the regular traveller will want to get on with what ever they are doing (or sleeping) and not be woken up to say we have climbed/descended or whatever.

At my airline, whenever the fasten seat belt sign is switched on, we make an announcement as to why (landing or turbulence etc).

I remember flying with a lovely friendly captain a year or so ago on a morning flight to Malaga or Alicante (can't remember which) and the Captain after we had been flying about 30 minutes came onto the PA with the usual "We have reached our cruising altitude blah blah" and went on for around about 5 minutes with all sorts of wonderful stuff for the pax to listen too - and I actually had passengers say to me "Can't you shut him up?". Around about 20 minutes later he was on again saying "We are now flying over .... those of you on the left hand side will get an excellent view of .... later on we will be flying over .... " and so it went on for another 5 minutes or so. I didn't have the heart to say to this Captain that the passengers didn't appreciate his PA's because he was (is) such a lovely friendly chap and would be devastated to know the pax didn't enjoy his PA's.

My personal preference is for minimal PA's on an aircraft. If it was up to me we would have just the following:

After take of (a safety related PA)
Gift Shop (information PA)
Brief update PA with expected time of landing (information PA from pilots)
Further update PA around 30 mins to landing (information PA from pilots)
Expected/Experiencing turbulence PA (a safety related PA when necessary)
Before landing PA (a safety related PA)

If a nervous passenger makes themselves known to the Cabin Crew on boarding (and a lot of them do) at my airline we generally seat them near to the front of the aircraft so that during take off and landing we can keep an eye on them and try to calm and reassure them. Also, the front of the aircraft doesn't get so turbulent as the rear, so they don't get the bumps quite so bad.

lexxity

23rd Aug 2006, 12:20

I think it's nice to hear from the Captain when you're flying over somewhere special, ie the Grand Canyon. I always remember the times when the Captain has pointed somewhere special out. Like the time we flew over Dubai at night, all those lights in the darkness were spectacular.

angels

23rd Aug 2006, 13:07

Gotta go with Lexxi there.

I like announcements from the cockpit. Fair enough, on a long haul with everyone having/trying to have a kip, they arne't necessary in terms of 'sightseeing'.

But I remember a (day) flight between Las Vegas and Dallas where the pilot not only gave us info about the watershed in the U.S., but also pointed out some irrigation circles in the desert. 'They're exactly a mile wide. So now you know what a mile looks like from five miles up.'

He was chatty and I really enjoyed the flight.

Getoutofmygalley -

Gift Shop (information PA)

is just the sort of PA I don't want to hear!

Skintman

23rd Aug 2006, 13:25

Globaliser

23rd Aug 2006, 14:30

Another passenger chiming in here: The complaint from those who fly regularly is that there are already too many announcements, both from the flight deck and the cabin crew. I know that some cabin crew are also fed up with the amount of stuff they have to recite as a matter of routine on each flight as well.

There are two other things to bear in mind.

One is that times when announcements from the flight deck would be really useful to everyone are often times when the tech crew is genuinely too busy to be able to do this safely. For example, when an approach has just been aborted and the aircraft is going around, passengers understandably want to know what's happening. But this is a period of extremely high workload on the flight deck, and the crew must keep focused on the things that are important, namely flying the aircraft.

The other is that on many flights, there will be many people who want to rest or sleep. This is so even if the flight is during the day: they may have just got off a long overnight flight, or their body clocks may be out of synch with local time, or they may have had a very early start just to get to the airport. It's courteous to them to keep the cabin quiet during the cruise phase of the flight. To a lesser extent, this also applies to those who are working.

Middle Seat

23rd Aug 2006, 14:40

I'm SLF that doesn't care for a chatty pilot....or flight attendants who fancy themselves as comedians. PAs are good for preboarding announcements, turbulence warnings, service announcements, landing announcements, and that final one...

"On behalf of __ Airlines, we'd like to be the first to welcome you to ___ where the correct local time is __:__. We will be taxiing for a few more moments and ask that you remain seated with your seatbelt fastedned until the captain has brought the aircraft to a complete stop at the gate and has turned off the seat belt sign. That is your indication that it is safe to move about the cabin. Please be careful when opening the overhead bins as contents may have shifted during the flight. On behalf of this ___-based flight crew we thank you for flying with us today. We know that you have a choice of air carriers, and we thank you for your business, and the next time your plans call for air travel we hope you call on ____, or visit us on the web at www.____.com. Thank you and have a pleasant stay here, or whereever your final destination may be."

Untied offers channel 9 (pilot's discretion) enabling you to listen to Air Traffic Control, which can get pretty dull on a transPacific flight.

lexxity

23rd Aug 2006, 15:21

Middle seat you really made me laugh with that, you must fly all the time to be able to recite the welcome spiel off pat. :p

I should clarify that I don't care for chatty stuff during a night longhaul (The one exception being the Dubai thing I mentioned), but on a boring intra european shorthaul or transcontinetal in the US, it can be quite nice, the Isle of Wight is really pretty from five miles up.:p :p

TFlyguy

23rd Aug 2006, 16:30

The IoW is really pretty from ground level too!

Getoutofmygalley

23rd Aug 2006, 16:32

Getoutofmygalley -

Gift Shop (information PA)
is just the sort of PA I don't want to hear!

Let me make it clear, the only type of gift shop PA that I do lasts for a maximum of about 20 seconds - I know crew that do PA's for the gift shop that last for a staggering 2 or 3 minutes, and if I was pax on a flight with a PA being made listing off every different perfume, aftershave, gift, toy or gadget I would be extremely annoyed!

We have to do a gift shop PA because believe it or not, some pax would not realise that the gift shop has just gone past them (when we ask every single awake pax if they would like something!) and would complain that they didn't have the chance to buy that bottle of 'Brittney' or 'J Lo' :rolleyes:

vendetta

23rd Aug 2006, 21:23

Thank you all for your replies so far.

I do not expect the pilots to be "chatty" for the whole duration of the flight and I'm also not that interested in sightseeing information. And I understand that they have loads of stuff to do. And I can relate to passengers who want to sleep or rest. The thing is, I have been on flights where the cockpit crew didn't say a single word, seriously. But that happened only once or twice, so no big deal. My point is just, it is comforting when you hear the voices from the cockpit. Kinda like a sign that the captain and the co-pilot are still alive ;) and doing their jobs - that everything is ok there.

I think it's also because when you are a bit fearful, what can you do for distraction? Reading or sleeping is hard when you are fearful. So you are in a state where you pay attention to every little changing noise and think about what it could mean and you imagine the worst-case-scenarios. ;) In those cases, the voices from the cockpit and a bit of information would help so you see that those people "in charge of us" are still alive and kicking. ;) So an announcement every now and then would be just cool :ok:

But I guess it's hard to find a solution that pleases everyone, since you mentioned the passengers who want to sleep and rest, which I understand. But see, that mostly applies to long-distance-flights only. And I was mainly talking about the 2 - 4 hours flights, so what about them? :)

Tarq57

24th Aug 2006, 00:14

I want to know the "important" stuff, reasons for delays, anything wrong, how long are we likely to be in this holding pattern, is there still two of everything, etc.
However, listening for the "important" stuff is often like trying to make out train station announcements...."passengers travelling to (garbled) should (garbled garbled) at platform (garbled) immediately..." (add non-english accent appropriate to your region)
The sound system, ironically, seems up to the task for advertising purposes.
Some flight crew (not all - some are very clear) could do with having a listen to their own p.a's from down the back, sometime.

Bangkokeasy

24th Aug 2006, 07:44

Have to go with Globaliser here, that in general, PA announcements are not welcome, the least the better. Particularly hated are the ones read off the card at breakneck speed in an incomprehensible accent, such as FR CC have a habit of imparting, or seatbelt announcements in the middle of the night on account of non-existent turbulence. Oh and while I'm at it, those stupid announcements on landing all over the Far East, to the effect that "Drug smuggling is a serious offence in (insert country), punishable by..." - Oh, and there was I thinking it was compulsory :rolleyes:

A suggestion for Vendetta though, if concerned about noises and happenings on board, you might like to ask a fellow passenger, or failing that, CC, who would usually be happy to help allay your fears. I for one, would much rather share a few reassuring words, than sit next to an increasingly jittery person the whole flight.

Admittedly, some perfectly normal noises associated with flights can be a little unsettling, even for seasoned travellers. One that still gets me from time to time, is the loud clanking that some landing gear makes, when deployed or raised. However, I always make a mental note that it is better to have it, noise and all, than not...

lexxity

24th Aug 2006, 07:55

Vendetta have you ever mentioned to the cabin crew that you are scared of flying? I used to have a terrible time when flying and I mentioned it once to a cabin crew member on a bmi flight and they were fab!! They sat with me on take off and kept popping back to make sure I was ok and tell me that the noises I heard were all normal. Now I can get on a plane and be asleep by the time we take off.:ok:

flash8

24th Aug 2006, 10:59

Unless a company has a specific policy, you'll likely see a wide range of announcements ranging from the bare minimum through to believing you are on a sightseeing flight (and that includes the FO and cabin crew :rolleyes: )

Some Commanders have the gift of the gab and won't shutup (or like to hear their own voice) whilst others hand all the announcements over to the FO.

Its human nature. Some like some don't. No different from the people down the back.

knobbygb

24th Aug 2006, 11:59

Despite all the reasons above, there do seem to be less announcements made these days than, say 10 years ago.

I personally (as just pax) put this down to the fact that pilots these days are less happy in their work - more worried about the latest "security" procedures, threats, management penny-pinching and backstabbing and are generally less inclined to make that extra bit of effort. To be honest I can't blame them. I know that probably isn't true of everyone, but the industry has changed so much... Also, people generally fly much more often now so often don't want the full explanation of exactly what's happening and that everything's going to be OK. I know there are nervous fliers still, but surely less than in the past, in general.

On a side note, one "sight-seeing" PA I always remember was from an ERJ captain over Arizona. He pointed out the little airfield where he learnt to fly. As a PPL that's something I could relate to. I think I'd be the type that wouldn't shut up : "Ladies and genetlemen, on the right you'll see a runway where I made a particularly late go-around due to a 15-knot crosswind a few years back...". Geek.

Smiliesam

29th Aug 2006, 19:24

SXB

29th Aug 2006, 20:29

Getting back to the subject of nervous flyers Getoutofmygalley and Lexxity give great advice. Anyone who is nervous on an airplane should definately tell the CC.

I was on a multi sector trip last week and the passenger seated next to me asked the flight attendent for a glass of water while we were sat on the tarmac, he explained he was very nervous about flying. She was great, immediately explaining to him that on this aircraft type, a CRJ-200, there would be a loud 'clunk' just after take off as the gear is raised, much louder than on larger aircraft. She regularly chatted with him and answered his questions about turbulence in detail. She also came back and told him there would be another loud 'clunk' when the gear was lowered. On leaving the aircraft the first officer was saying goodbye to passengers and he greeted this particular passenger by name and invited him to visit the captain in the cockpit. I met him again by the baggage carousel and he still had a huge smile on his face.

These things may seem small to us but I could see the change in this guys manner as the flight went on. All credit to the crew of that aircraft, professionalism personified and led by the cabin crew.

For info this was an Austrian Airlines flight from VIE-SXB (via LUX)

gorgeous spotter

29th Aug 2006, 20:36

Having been on 4 planes last weekend (Birmingham/Zurich/Budapest each way), I just wish I could have Understood the Voice from the Front. These guys seem trained in a cadence way of talking starting each sentence with a loudish consonent that fades into a mumble.........mmm
:hmm:

Did you go with BA on any of the flights? I understood it that flight deck/crew with them were trained to 'talk properly' to passengers!!

flybywire

30th Aug 2006, 07:25

You can listen in to the Pilot/ Air Traffic Control converstaions on your seat headset. Sure passes the time and I'm sure would help the fearful ones.
Skintman

Good idea for the experienced travellers like you! However I believe that people who are scared of flying (and I mean scared by any bump/thrust-mechanical noise) would not appreciate it as much. F/D-ATC conversations can be very difficult to understand and a simple report of the pilots when they are visual with other traffic might send some people completely ballistic!! :uhoh:

I agree with Lexxity and getoutofmygalley, our pilots have some mandatory PAs they have to do exactly as us CC, however some of them tend to inform everybody if we're flying over something particularly important or beautiful.
I do not like long PAs as I see that most passengers tend not to listen anyway.
However if there's any person who is nervous about flying I make sure I keep them informed personally, talking face to face, if we're expecting any turbulence, and try to foresee the changes in noises for them like "we'll start our descent in a few minutes and you'll notice a reduction of noise from the engines, do not worry as this is entirely normal" etc etc etc.
It takes two seconds to make somebody feel better. I have even been able to sit next to people who were really scared for take off and landing.

So to sum it up, if you're scared of flying do not be scared to tell us!!! We do understand, believe me!! :ok:

FBW

paulc

30th Aug 2006, 14:37

Try domestic flights in China - no announcements from the flight deck on any of them.

Biggles' Apprentice

31st Aug 2006, 08:40

None of you have even a thought for the poor pilot on this one. It's out ragous.

What if I want a little nap? Or am hammering the FO at Cribbage? Or have managed to get the Test Match commentry? Have you ever thought about how difficult a game of Jenga is in turbulance?

Totally inconsiderate.

The last thing I want to do is point out that that's the Siciliean Desalination plant under us to a bunch of burberry wearing chavs.

(all in jest dear PAX).

chrisstiles

31st Aug 2006, 15:02

Personally I'd prefer few or little announcements. Yes, sometimes it is nice to have something on the ground pointed out - however I might equally be trying to sleep and then it's not so good. As at least half of the passengers will fall into each category, so silence is better.

Brought home to me by recent - first and hopefully last - flight on Ryanair. Announcements galore, giftshop, lottery, &^%%ing scratchcards!

Amusing thing was that when landing back at Stanstead the passengers started clapping twice - once when the lottery winner was announced, once when the pilot landed successfully - i can only presume the latter is a hit and miss affair ;)

Pax Vobiscum

31st Aug 2006, 15:55

I'm always grateful (in daylight, if the weather's fine) for points of interest (cities, rivers, mountains, ...) being pointed out from the cockpit. I appreciate that (particularly on short-haul flights) the folks up at the pointy end are pretty busy, but if the opportunity arises ...

I still remember a flight back from Munich by BA Trident (that dates me!) on a lovely clear day, when the pilot announced that we were passing directly overhead Brussels and then did a gentle bank left and right to give us all a better view. Happier days!

Hampshire Hog

1st Sep 2006, 08:43

Vendetta,

Let me know the message bord for fearful flyers. I used to run from departure gate, but overcame my fears - various techniques - including becoming a ppl. I'd love to help others with this debilitating fear if I can.

I sympathise entirely with the feeling that some reassurance is gained by the occasional message from the flight deck. There are several reasons for this. First, the sound of a calm voice - no matter what the message - from someone in the front of the aircraft impacts on the subconscious with the message - calm = all is well (but remember, a good captain could make you feel safe even if the plane is falling apart). Secondly, a little commentary - routing after take-off, cruise position (on a longer flight and where no map is available so passengers can see where they are) and a warning before the engines are pulled back for descent (with est time to landing) can be very reassuring. This needn't be disturbingly long - just a succinct message. I find I want more information on aircraft without the map/flight information screens.

Whilst airlines feel the need to give business travellers peace and quiet, I have come across many regular business travellers who also suffer from nervousness about flying. Most would be reassured by short messages. Research has shown that some 80% of people suffer from fear of flying to some extent. Airlines should remember that 80% of the population = a lot of potential customers. One especially fearful fight without any reassurance from the flight deck can put a customer off for life.

I flew back from GLA a few weeks ago with BA, on a particuarly stormy day. The captain was excellent - especially after the cabin crew folded the map screens up - telling us where the next bout of turb was expected and so on. Sometimes, the all important business traveller must put up with some reassurance for the common herd - in the interests of the industry.

If you want to cut the disturbance on flights, get rid of some of the pointless sales messages that the cabin crew are now required to spout.

HH

Bangkokeasy

1st Sep 2006, 09:31

Tarq57

1st Sep 2006, 10:53

Ah, yes, the notorious Marty Feldman :eek: " the wings are not on fire." sketch.
Reminds me of a certain Larson cartoon.

gorgeous spotter

1st Sep 2006, 20:43

Hampshire Hog - I admire you!!:ok: Conquering your fear of flying and becoming a pilot as well. Well done to you! I suppose its a case of 'in at the deep end' :uhoh: and facing your fears head on. Its obviously worked for you. I would love to know some of the techniques that you have used. Watched something on tv recently (think it was last week) where a group of terrified non flyers were guided through various group therapy sessions to firstly get them in a crane to certain heights, and then to finally boarding an aircraft and flying. Interesting. Only a couple I think failed to board the aircraft but on the whole it worked for the others and they are now (supposedly) frequent flyers. Great to hear about you though.

Ps We work in similar sectors so I am especially interested to hear of your success with the controls!!:) It must beat reading 'briefs' any day!

Happy flying!

Gorgeous

flybywire

1st Sep 2006, 21:01

Gorgeous....
for what is worth I used to be so terrified of flying that I once even bit an AZ cabin crew's arm while we were going through some severe turbulence... I was so scared that as a teenager I used to cheat and listen to music on full volume during take off because just the increase of the noise of the engines would make me feel faint!!
However I still felt that something was attracting me to flying and I needed to kill that fear.

So one day, when I was particularly bored and probably brave, I applied for a cabin crew job. Guess what....I got it! (of course didn't tell them I was terrified - women are pretty good liers sometimes :E)

For the first year and a half in the job, everytime I had a flight I was really thinking that that was going to be the last day of my life(I flew LongHaul). However, getting familiar and more experienced with the noises, smells, with the technical aspects of the aeroplane and the laws of physics that cover flying, as well as getting to know more experienced pilots and cabin crew made me relax a little bit more. My confidence increased and so the fun!

Now, I couldn't live without my job. It took me a few years to feel completely at ease though, and taking care of scared passengers helped me a lot because I had to be convincing in reassuring them!

I still get the odd irrational fear when I fly as a passenger, but usually is brought by something else and the flying becmes just an excuse. I am not a pilot, although feeling that I had some kind of role in the success of the flight was really what made me turn that corner.

I learnt the "hard" way but even if sometimes people think that I am weird/crazy person etc, I can only say that I am not the only one who started like this, I know lots of crew who started flying to beat the fear of flying!!

I would say to all the nervous pax to remember that the cabin crew know how to handle a situation like this, so if you feel a bit anxious/scared it might be worth telling them!!! The worst that can happen is you get spoilt a little bit during the flight ;) :ok:

Ciao

FBW:)

SXB

1st Sep 2006, 21:06

I recall one announcement, from a TV sketch show (Not the Nine O'Clock News?), where the Captain and FO were chatting in the cockpit and the Captain said, "Ah yes, here's one I love doing", whereupon he cleared his throat and switched on the PA, "Ladies and gentlemen, there is absolutely NO cause to panic"....

I believe that was actually the "bored airline pilot sketch" from Monty Python now, sadly, removed from 'You Tube' for copyright reasons

gorgeous spotter

1st Sep 2006, 21:58

Flybywire, firstly thanks for the reply; its so good to hear that its not only us pax who get the jitters! :ok: When I flew with GB in June I did tell the purser that I was scared in-flight; going out over Bay of Biscay was terrible. Aircraft was really shuddering. Flight deck did acknowledge this though and seat belt signs were on for a while. My husband was laughing (typical male) but I was terrified. The only good thing though was the Bucks Fizz that kept me brave; ridiculous I know at breakfast time, but we all like a bit of Vit C with our bacon and eggs don't we?!! :E I do think its great though to hear stories of crew like yourself and pilots who have conquered their fears and are up there doing it for a living. Great achievement; and it was obviously your calling.:)

Gorgeous

raviolis

2nd Sep 2006, 20:23

Try domestic flights in China - no announcements from the flight deck on any of them.

Wouldn't understand much anyway !! ;)

Hampshire Hog

5th Sep 2006, 11:49

gorgeous spotter

5th Sep 2006, 19:24

Well, I have to say flybywire, your approach to self-treatment beats my meagre efforts! Becoming cabin crew really was brave. Don't think it would have worked for me, I'm not that good looking;)

Gorgeous, I do, indeed, try to get out from work to go flying as often as I can! I think the treatment for aerophobia depends on the individual specific symptoms and their causes. For some it's fear of heights, for others it's claustrophobia, for many type A personalities it's not being in control ... For all though, I think regular exposure to the flying environment helps, especially in circumstances where the individual is fully aware of what is going on - which is where doing a ppl can help. Flying is not an intuitively natural activity - either as pilot or passenger - it takes some getting used to. Learn as much as you can about what happens - watch some of the anorak videos available - they are great exposure treatment.

Noting what you say about your GB Airways flight, learning where to expect turbulence will help - mostly it won't be as bad as you expect. If it's any consolation, I have a friend who is a captain with GB airways who recently described herself as 'rather tense' sat in the back as a passenger. Her airline captain husband had to tell her to relax! The point here is not about GB Airways, who I understand are actually a rather good airline, but that even professionals sometimes dislike the sensations and lack of control associated with sitting in the passenger cabin.

I took my father-in-law flying yesterday and spent the whole time trying to get him to relax. Trouble was he told me that was what his dentist always says too:E

Happy to talk more if you want to learn about how I (mostly) got over it.

HH

Hampshire Hog, you are absolutely right; its the feeling of not being in control that is the worst aspect of being afraid. Yes, you know the flight deck are competent and have done severse harsh and lengthy training to get where they are, flying that multimillion pound aircraft; but together with fear of heights (which I suffer from a little), not the fear of being in enclosed spaces, but a colleague is flying out to Japan soon and he says exactly the same thing, he doesn't like the flying because of not being in control.

Yes, I am definitely interested in hearing some more of how you conquered your fears; I should think most people who read this thread of Vendettas' will be. Even if pilots are a little afraid in the passenger seats and not up front at the pointy end then theres not a great deal of hope for the rest of us! :p Alcohol, although I know should not really be taken, needs to be taken a little in my case to help me relax. The type A personalities thing is totally right; so I must have one of those!:)

Thanks once again for the reply and look forward to hearing more of how you overcame your fears, if you don't mind telling us!!:)

Gorgeous

fearfullflyer

5th Sep 2006, 21:18

Thanks to everyone for their points on passanger jitters!!! As a terrible flier at the best of time it is nice to hear that I am not the only one and every bit of advice helps.
I used to be ok many years ago, but following a particularly stressfull event, I had a panic attack during a really bumpy flight and unfortunatly ever since it seems like it wont get any better (although I havn't had another attack, I have come close a few times!!).
I am flying tomorrow (long haul again dammit) and just reading your kind words has calmed me down a bit so thanks again everyone.

On the point of announcements from the flight deck, I must admit that I am definatly reassured and gratefull when the pilot takes a few moments to tell everyone that all is ok, we are at xxx altitude, xxx position, xxx speed and eta is in xxx.
Pointing out interesting features is great aswell because, as I think about other things I tend to calm down. I have thought for ages that this would be a great safety point, simply because calm passangers are unlikely to give anyone grief, but someone who is panicking can (I've seen it happen) start off an almighty row, disturbing everyone else and the CC above all. Something tokeep in mind perhaps pilots?
:ok: :O :ok:

NadaEspamo

7th Sep 2006, 04:01

Maybe this is not a workable idea, but if the pax can listen to the pilots talking to ATC on the headset, why can't the pilot also talk to the pax via the headset? Pax who want peace don't have to listen, and the people who like the chatty pilots can listen on the headset. Everyone's happy.:ok:

"Ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain. Everyone else is asleep.... quick... hide!!!" :confused:

Okay, maybe not.:hmm:

SLF3

7th Sep 2006, 11:03

I would put up with almost any number of inept announcements in exchange for BA canning the 'well being in the air' video.

Hampshire Hog

7th Sep 2006, 14:49

Gorgeous and all,

You asked if I could post more tips for getting over aerophobia. I though I would try to post one or two a day and see how we get on.

Please note, I am a manager, not a psychologist. This advice is based on my research of numerous sources on fear of flying, on my own experiences, and on my limited knowledge gained through doing my ppl (and other aviation activities). If there are any professional pilots/psychologists out there - please feel free to contradict and/or chip in.

I propose to work through several aspects:

- you/your fears/motivation to get over it
- Aviation knowledge: how planes fly/the aviation environment(weather/ATC/Collision Avoidance/Engineering/Safety Regulation etc)
- Physiology affected by flying - why your senses cannot always be trusted - what are those strange noises - 'Is my head going to explode during descent?!'
- Getting exposure - gradually - being around planes - airports - strategies for getting back into flying ...

Let's see where we go from there.

Here's today's offering:

1) Ask yourself what you are afraid of. Is it 'not being in control', enclosed spaces, busy places, heights, the noise, something else? Many would say all of the above and more, but try to narrow it down. That gives something manageable to work on. A really common one is fear of being afraid. That's more complex and generally relates to fear of panicking or losing control. You cannot work on too many fears at once.

2) Be tough with yourself on the above. Set aside some time to really think about it. Some of the tips I will offer later apply more to some types of fear than others.

3) Ask what has happened to trigger your fears. Was it a 'bad flight'? If so, review what happened and ask whether you were really in danger. If so, why? How many good flights have you had? Why do you think your next flight will be bad/end in disaster? How can you know?

4) Don't just believe the press articles about an air incident. A good amount of what they say are made up by journalists who don't know what they are talking about. If you want to read about aircraft incidents - read the NTSB or AAIB accident reports - but remember, serious incidents involving commercial air travel are few and far between. For private flying, the risk is about the same as driving your private car.

5) The above is tough, but feel free to post answers here. Let's talk about them.

More tomorrow!

HH

gorgeous spotter

7th Sep 2006, 19:34

Great post Hampshire Hog!!:ok:

For me, (and I hope others post you their replies); its the number 1), fear of not being in control; think that another aircraft is going to slam into us. So not just relying on the pilots, its air traffic control as well!! :\ Maybe I don't fly enough (i.e. every month) in order to calm down a little more; i.e if you are on a motorway in the fast lane everyday, then you are used to it. If you drive B roads all of the time and rarely use the motorway; the fast lane may be a bit scary. Just an example. (The guys in JB will hate me for saying that but its true!! ) Find your thread fascinating and keep posting and telling us more.:) Never read press articles any more; if I want the truth about any airline incident now I read Rumours and News on here. Trouble is, you get so absorbed!!!:E

Gorgeous

Hampshire Hog

8th Sep 2006, 09:33

Well Gorgeous, you mentioned the control issue before, so I guess that's a big one for you - was for me too. You also mentioned insufficient exposure - not flying enough to get used to it. That plays a substantial part in any phobia and, apart from drugs/alcohol etc, is also the principal method of treatment. I'll come back to why aircraft shouldn't collide in a later post, but suffice it to say for now that both ATC and TCAS (Traffic Collision Avoidance System) carried on all passenger airliners should prevent that - the Lake Constance incident involved a pilot ignoring TCAS coupled with poor ATC practice - it was almost a freak accident, BUT lessons will have been learned from it and applied worldwide. The industry is like that.

I'll talk about exposure to your set of issues in a moment, but let's just look at motivation.

1) Why do you want to conquer your fears? What are you missing? Does it affect others - your friends, family? Is your fear of flying hindering your career? Does it leave you with low self-esteem?

All these things are common. You think you can do a flight, get more and more worked up about it as the time approaches, find a rationalised excuse not to do it on the day, then feel relief - followed by guilt - followed by depression at your failure. I know, it's horrible. Not nice if you think you're letting others down either. Imagine if you didn't have these worries! If you could fly confidently - you don't have to like it!

2) What if you took a flight? Did you get to where you wanted to go and back again? How did you feel after? You might have felt relief to be back on the ground - and you might have said 'Thank goodness, never again!', but I'll bet you were a little proud of yourself too. Was the flight really as bad as you were expecting? (Maybe yes - flying hasn't become any easier of late!)

3) You can spend a lifetime making excuses not to fly. It's too dangerous, too uncomfortable, too expensive, don't need to go there anyway, could take the train and enjoy a more relaxed journey ... MY POINT: YOU HAVE TO WANT TO GET OVER THE FEAR OF FLYING - TO BE ABLE TO FLY WHERE YOU WANT, WHEN YOU WANT, TO SUCCEED IN GETTING OVER IT.

4) Claustrophobics - start getting used to whatever you consider claustrophobic spaces outside of the aviation environment. Sit in a crowded room, visit some caves, take the lift (try glass walled ones first - unless you're also scared of heights!). FIND A LOCAL AVIATION MUSEUM WITH AN AIRLINER YOU CAN SIT IN. GO THERE OFTEN AND SIT IN IT UNTIL YOU FEEL CALM. Go slowly, don't move to something more challenging until you're comfortable with the previous stage. Little and often is the key here. Push yourself just a little more each time you begin to feel comfortable. If you have a real panic, take a step back to the previous stage and try again. DONT give up!

5) Control freaks - again, exposure is the key. Do you like to drive the car, or sit as a passenger? I'll bet you prefer driving - you're in control of your own destiny then! Start deliberately asking someone else to drive for short - then longer trips. If it's a reasonable driver - all the better. The aim is to get used to trusting others - not to test your nerves to destruction! When you're comfortable with that, try having a snooze whilst they're driving. If trains make you nervous for the same reason, take the train somewhere. If they don't, ask yourself why you trust a train driver, but not a pilot. Do you think you can drive a train better? Why do you think you can fly the plane better? (This is where my arguments about doing a PPL fall apart - then you think you can fly the plane better:E )) GO TO THE LOCAL ANORAK'S GALLERY AND ASK IF SOMEONE WILL LET YOU LISTEN TO ATC. THERE IS ALSO A WEBSITE WHERE YOU CAN LISTEN ONLINE TO SOME LIVE FEEDS, MAINLY FROM THE STATES. NOTE HOW CALM EVERYONE SOUNDS. IT'S NOT AN ACT - MOSTLY THEY ARE CALM. Again, little and often is the key.

6) Fear of heights - again, gradually build up exposure - go the the upper floors of gradually taller buildings. Walk up a hill ... One thing here though. When flying, you usually lose any height perspective. My flying instructor, an ex 747 captain, told me he was scared of heights! So, you might get used to heights more, but I would doubt this is the cause of aerophobia on its own.

7) I have mentioned the 'little and often' approach and, as Gorgeous says, the same goes for the flying itself. If you feel able to get straight to the flying bit of treating yourself, start finding nice places to go for a day trip/weekend treat. Make sure you want to see something there - make it worthwhile. Promise yourself a reward for doing it. Go regularly. Once a month is probably about right (I know the environmentalists will be after me now). The risk of getting in the car on the motorway is certainly greater - but you do it so often you don't think about it, do you!

If anyone has different fears/perspectives, please do post them.

If we carry on here we'll be going somewhat off thread and covering a subject many more might want to read. Any advice from the MODERATOR?

Thanks, more on Monday - something to do at work;)

HH

gorgeous spotter

8th Sep 2006, 21:19

Brilliant post once again;:ok: and thanks from all of us reading it for taking the time to do this for me and I hope for others. The points you have made here again make for very interesting and thought provoking reading. You have given me some tips and things to mull over. A lot of what you say is sure true of me! I can't stand anyone else driving me about. Tightslot, are we OK with this on this thread? Are you happy about it? Hope so; cos you sound nice, so you don't mind, do you?:) :)

Hope will will hear from you again Hampshire Hog.:D

Gorgeous

Hampshire Hog

11th Sep 2006, 15:51

OK, last focus on the fear bit. Tomorrow, I'll move onto how planes fly.

Probably between booking and taking a trip you start looking into the destination. You’re tempted to find what aircraft type will fly the route – then start searching for views about that type on pprune. Maybe you start visiting accident/fear of flying sites for information on the aircraft or airline and its accident record. EVERYTHING YOU’RE DOING IS AIMED AT RESOLVING YOUR FEARS – BUT HAVING THE EFFECT OF CONFIRMING THEM. If you find that Boeing 737s have crashed so many times – that must be a dangerous aircraft, mustn’t it? And because you’re getting worked up ahead of your flight, you’re mind isn’t analysing properly. You fail to spot that there have been lots of 737 incidents because there are more 737s than any other commercial airliner (I think) and some are operated by airlines you wouldn’t dream of flying with in dubious parts of the world. You also fail to read properly how many people were uninjured – because you’re only focussing on the number of people killed.

Then the day approaches and you’re not sleeping properly at night – bad dreams about planes maybe. Worrying more and more. THIS IS ALL A NATURAL RESPONSE TO SOMETHING YOU’RE SCARED OF – BUT NATURAL RESPONSE IS NOT THE SAME AS RATIONAL RESPONSE.

On the day, you might make it to the airport. By now you’re catastrophising big time. Do you peer through the window at the departure gate doing your own pre-flight checks of the plane? Do you look around you for any suspicious looking passengers? What if there’s a delay – must be something wrong with the aircraft mustn’t there? I bet you don’t think it could be because a member of the crew was delayed, or there was bad weather at the plane’s last destination, or someone else was scared of flying and hasn’t turned up at the gate – even though their baggage is in the hold.

If you get on the plane and sit there – sweaty palmed – looking nervously around you – every slight noise becomes a threat. This is all part of the body’s ‘fight or flight’ defence mechanism, which is great if you’re being chased by a hungry tiger, or down the road from the pub by a gang of your ex’s mates, but not very helpful when you’re trying to undertake a simple flight to Amsterdam for a business meeting! So, you need to stop those thoughts.

Some people use prescription drugs – Diazepam is a common one, as are some Beta Blockers. Others use non-prescription remedies – herbal calming … Many use alcohol. The trouble is, at altitude, the effects of these may not be quite what you want. They also leave you with side effects after your 1 hour flight. I could take enough diazepam to knock an elephant out for a week, but it didn’t work all the time in calming me enough to fly. Alcohol is better, but can leave you tired and dehydrated – especially on a long haul flight, where it combines with jet lag to make you feel really awful.

SO:

1) Learn to relax. Visit a clinical hypnotherapist if need be, just to learn. It doesn’t matter if you don’t believe in hypnotism, or if you don’t want to do that. Just spend half an hour with one being taught how to relax properly. Use this to improve your sleep during the days before a flight and use it during a flight if you can.

2) Take some exercise – this produces chemicals which help with relaxation and sleep and leaves you feeling more positive about yourself (don’t over do this!)#

3) Book your flight and find reasons to look forward to going to the destination. Forget about the aircraft type, accident records etc. Just focus on getting there – which you will – safely – whatever you’re flying on – however noisy and uncomfortable it might be. (Accepting there are still many airlines and a couple of aircraft types I wouldn’t book a flight on in the first place – have you make your own judgements about which you would prefer to avoid:)

4) If you really must have an answer to a question in advance –post it on here. There’s usually some aviation professional who will answer.

5) There will still be times when the anticipated flight begins to worry you. That’s ok. It’s normal. You’re being brave trying to conquer your fear (NOTE, you are not being brave flying – that’s one of the safest activities you can do). A wise man once said to me, it is not brave to do something if you’re not afraid of it.

6) Learn thought stopping. This is to stop you catastrophising for extended periods. Some people just learn to say ‘stop’ to themselves and distract with something else. Some find pain helps – flicking a rubber band worn around their wrist when such thoughts arise. The real trick is learning to successfully distract yourself from irrational thought chains. The harder you are in stopping yourself early – when the thought train begins – the more effective, and the less times such thought chains will commence.

So, a long post boiling down to three points:

- learn to relax
- book it an forget it until the day
- learn to thought stop (you can do this on the aircraft too!)

More tomorrow.

HH

Rupert369

11th Sep 2006, 20:16

On the subject of in flight announcements - I really appreciate being told what route we are taking, and would much rather hear this than the persistant "buy a scratchcard" "buy a train ticket" "give us more money" etc. announcements of Ryanair.

gorgeous spotter

11th Sep 2006, 22:52

Hampshire Hog, THANKYOU!! :) You are definitely helping me. I'm sure others reading this will appreciate it just as much as me. By the way, which are the planes/airlines you wouldn't fly with??:E Give us a clue; Im good at charades:p

Gorgeous

Glamgirl

12th Sep 2006, 02:18

Hi there to the people who don't like flying much. Thought I'd just let you know about a web site which is brilliant. This is a serious site for people who wants to overcome their fear of flying, so no hoaxers please.

www.scaredofflying.com (http://www.scaredofflying.com)

If you're nervous about flying, please come along and join in the forum. It's a great community, and people help each other as well as posting questions to me or the captain.

Hampshire Hog

13th Sep 2006, 13:01

Glamgirl,

Excellent referral to a great site. I hadn't seen this one before, but it looks really good. Readers on here might want to look in particular at the 'reassure me' section.

I think that site also covers far more than I am going to, but I'm happy to carry on writing if anyone wants to read more.

Gorgeous, I'm content to say that I would avoid elderly airliners manufactured in the former eastern block countries and, though I'm not aware of any, I'd probably avoid anything similar from the 3rd world. I'm still not going to name airlines - since it will be edited out, I'm sure - but if you can find out who flies those old planes - that'll give you a clue! I actually chose my flying school, among other things, because of their high quality maintenance of school aircraft. These things matter :oh:

I found learning about how planes fly and what the pilots do an essential element in beating my fears - the samples of from the CDs on the site Glamgirl has referred to sound very good.

Let's do wings today.

At its simplest, airliners need to overcome two forces to fly - weight and drag. They do this by generating opposing forces - lift and thrust. Just like a bird, the wings produce lift. Despite early attempts to produce thrust by flapping the wings, it was found that a fixed motor produced more efficient thrust - and so most aircraft are driven by piston or jet engines.

The attachment of wings to a modern airliner is incredibly strong. Wings are designed specifically for the aircraft, taking into account the size and weight, centre of gravity and centre of pressure and speeds at which the aircraft will be required to operate. Often they include fuel tanks in the wings - which actually help the wing loading and stability. Engines have a similar effect if slung underneath (as with the Boeing 737, 757, 767, 747 and Airbus ranges).

The ideal for a modern passenger plane is to have low take of and landing speeds and much heigher cruise speeds. Nothing is ever simple in life and so it is with wing design. What is good for a slow speed (take off and landing) is not great at higher speeds. This is resolved in everything from light planes to jet airliners by the use of 'high lift' devices to change the shape of the wing and the airflow over it. In fact, that is the critical bit - the airflow. As the aircraft is driven forwards - by the thrust created by the engines - the air (a fluid, just like water and thicker than you might think) flows under and over the wing from front to back. The wing is shaped such that it takes a longer route over the top than underneath - that going over the top has to speed up to catch up with the air going underneath, resulting in a lower pressure above than below the wing. This causes the wing to be sucked upwards - with some lift from underneath as well. In effect, there is an imbalance between bottom and top of the wing lifting it upwards. This effect is very strong. Try holding your hand out of the car window at 70mph! Many airliners have 'slats' which pop out at the front of the wings and all have 'flaps' which move backwards and downwards at the rear of the wings. You will have heard and seen these, I'm sure. The hydraulic/electric motors which drive them are often quite noisy and some cause an airflow noise too (anyone ever flown in a BAE146? The airflow between the flaps and the body as the flaps are extended sounds like a banshee!). On many airliners, there are back-up systems should flaps fail to extend and all pilots are trained in landing without the flaps extended at all (on an airliner that requires quite a lot of speed [pre-calculated for all aircraft] and you may be diverted to find a longer runway. The manoeuvre is not, in itself, dangerous, the plane is still flown at a suitable flying speed with plenty of safety margin). I know several pilots and none has actually had to do a flapless landing for real in an airliner - only in the simulator training

If the airflow were to begin breaking up - because the angle of attack is increased too much (nose heigh, to maintain height with a falling airspeed) then the wing will stall. In a single engined aircraft, this is may happen with an engine fault/failure unless the pilot recognises the problem and lowers the nose to glide speed. It is not the same as stalling in your car - it is the airflow over the wing which has broken up and so the lift generated by the wing deteriorates - an engine problem may give rise to the situation, but it is not the engine that stalls. In multi engined airliners, the nose may be lowered slightly to give the best speed with a slow/shut-down engine, but it will not usually be necessary to land off-airport. In a 'heavy' plane, such as a 747, loss of two engines may result in a descent into thicker air, where the aircraft will be levelled off and routed to a suitable airport.

In reality, modern aircraft wings are designed to give plenty of warning to the pilot before a wing stall. In the aircraft I fly, the Piper PA28, when the wing is stalled the aircraft nods its head a few times, loses a bit of height and kind of 'mushes downwards' nodding its head en-route. Airliners are far more sophisticated. Pilots learn about stall recovery, but are unlikely to stall an airliner in a whole flying career. There are warning alarms, stick pushers (to ensure the nose is pushed down if the angle of attach becomes critical), auto-throttle responses and, on fly-by-wire planes such as the Airbus A320 series, A330, A340 and A380, computer systems which will in normal operations prevent the pilot from doing anything that gets the plane anywhere close to the stall. For example, on the Airbus, the pilot can pull the control stick fully back for a maximum angle of climb (you wouldn't want to be sat in the back for this - it would feel almost vertical:) ). The aircraft will give him maximum climb available for the speed and will advance the throttles to give him more power ... I believe the test pilots who fly the airbus at airshows have to disconnect some protection systems in order to do the display manoeuvres. These systems would never be disconnected in service.

'But the wings wobble!' - Of course they do. They are intended to. To build them so they didn't would increase the weight of the aircraft too much and - more importantly - you would feel every bit of turbulence and so would the airframe. Imagine driving your car with bars welded to the suspension, locking the shock absorbers and springs. It wouldn't be comfortable to have a rigid ride in the car and it wouldn't be in an aircraft. Building a set amount of flexibility addresses these problems.

You might also like to know that, during the design and testing process, a test aircraft is placed in a jig and the wings loaded (using jacks) until they break. The angle/loading at which they break is amazing.

So, wings are incredibly strong, can handle all the turbulence you are ever likely to encounter, produce all the lift the plane will ever need, and are unlikely (in an airliner) to give rise to an aerodynamic stall. The flaps and slats help through take-off and landing (which would be faster and so bumpier without) and, even thought the systems that operate them may make strange noises, you should try to view these as 'friendly sounds' - they help the plane fly safely and you arrive, where you want to go, comfortably.

Happy to do engines later this week, if anyone wants more. If you prefer the dedicated fear of flying site, I'm happy to leave it to the professionals.

HH

high-hopes

13th Sep 2006, 17:14

hey.. as a student pilot with 40 hours PPL I just wanted to say... there isn't (or maybe there are very few) such thing as a natural flyer. Fear or discomfort never totally goes away, we only learn to deal with it...
In fact, despite the little experience I've gathered so far, and flying comfortably most of the times, today I was doing solo circuits in quite strong and turbulent crosswinds and I actually felt sick at the controls !

Fortunately managed to grab a sick bag quickly so I didn't make a mess of the cockpit. Landed safely with a very smelly breath !

Charming !

Hampshire Hog

14th Sep 2006, 10:47

Thanks for that post High Hopes. I know one or two people for whom I would say that flying does come naturally and who are safety conscious but have little fear on a day-to-day basis.

How far throught the PPL are you? Is it helping? I think it really does take time to get used to turb, even as a student pilot and especially as a solo student. I had passed the skills test before I finally stopped gripping onto the passenger seat in the bumps.

One point though, if it was so turbulent that you were sick at the controls, in the circuit, you probably should have landed earlier. I know that sounds gratuitous, but don't forget the human factors training. You're probably learning for fun - so fly when you can enjoy it, not when it's going to make you sick. Your instructor should have advised you.

HH

high-hopes

14th Sep 2006, 16:49

hey HH

I must say the instructor did all he could do - checked me out on the cross wind, I was doing ok and felt perfectly fine... so sent me solo. I was ok for a bit then it all happened very quickly.. and before I knew it I was sick LOL
Nothing major, but sure a good lesson learned. I have 40 hours and about 10 are solo so I should have known better !

I started flying out of interest and passion, with a half thought (just half) about professional developments. But it has also made me a much more relaxed passenger. I've always enjoyed flying, but knowing what's going on and why certain noises/turns/climbs/descents happen, it's somehow reassuring.

H-H

gorgeous spotter

15th Sep 2006, 21:37

:) Super previous posts; a lot of what you say really makes good sense; so if you please the bit (or rather the most important bit!) about the engines!!

Gorgeous

MNBluestater

16th Sep 2006, 05:14

As a regular biz and hol pax, I like plenty of announcements if the flight is delayed etc, but not the sightseeing stuff.

Best airline I've flown with for interest was Delta. You can listen in to the Pilot/ Air Traffic Control converstaions on your seat headset. Sure passes the time and I'm sure would help the fearful ones.

Skintman

This is all fine and dandy until the flight goes all to h__ll. I understand that American Airlines projected takeoffs from the cockpit on to the movie screens until an engine fell off a DC-10 on takeoff....

MNBluestater

16th Sep 2006, 05:29

Hey folks,

...so my question is, why is that? Why are you talking so little in general to the passengers? Not allowed to? No time? Don't want to?

I'm not making accusations - just wondering.

Thank you! :ok:

As a former f/a and frequent flier, I can tell you that most frequent fliers HATE announcements during cruise flight, whether from the cabin crew or the cockpit. Probably the main reason is that so many pilots and flight attendants communicate badly on the public address system. I for one, would rather know that a pilot was concentrating on cockpit procedure and CRM, rather than play Mr. Microphone. Pilot announcements vary by individual, some pilots you get the impression that the aircraft ends at the cockpit door, others are communicative.

When I flew, from time to time we'd have pilots who would be on the p/a every 20 minutes, for 5 minutes or so, and it was usually someone who didn't have any skill in communicating briefly and concisely, and liked the sound of their voice. It was annoying. If I was a co-pilot that would drive me bonkers....Then again , on a nice sunny day , maybe, but if you're over the Pacific or Nebraska, who needs one...

Whenever the seat belt sign is turned on, the cabin crew is required by law to make an announcement for the passengers to remain seated with their seatbelts fastened. A check of seatbelts is recommended, especially young children, etc. From time to time, the pilot crew may turn it on expecting turbulence and the aircraft doesn't hit any. Or they may be "helping" out the cabin crew briefly so that they can get their service started without a bazillion people getting up and in the aisle. In any event an announcement should be made.

MNBluestater

16th Sep 2006, 05:33

I
I still remember a flight back from Munich by BA Trident (that dates me!) on a lovely clear day, when the pilot announced that we were passing directly overhead Brussels and then did a gentle bank left and right to give us all a better view. Happier days!

As for me, I would prefer the pilot fly the designated flight plan and follow the controller's instructions...

Pax Vobiscum

17th Sep 2006, 14:45

Only a humble PAX, but as I understand it there should be at least a couple of miles lateral separation between aircraft. Our little 'display' was only a few seconds in each direction, so I don't imagine separation was compromised.

Any professionals care to comment on whether this would be considered a little bit 'naughty' today?

I once had a flight from Kusuluk (Greenland) . After we'd taken off, the Icelandair pilot came on and said that "since it's a nice clear day, we'll do a bit of sight seeing" and proceeded to fly his F50 up and down the glaciated valleys for 15-30 minutes before heading off to Reykjavik. I guess this may be SOP for that flight, since it's mostly tourists on board.

Hampshire Hog

19th Sep 2006, 12:43

GANNET FAN

19th Sep 2006, 13:13

5 or 6 years ago, my colleague and myself flew to Miama on bisiness with Virgin. My colleague, a self confessed wimp, spoke to the CC of his absolute fear of flying and they gave him one of these tapes to try and calm him. Obviously the captain had been told about my colleague because at some stage during the early part of the flight, he came down to our seat row and had a brief chat and then invited both of us to the flight deck.

Yes, I know that can't happen now, more's the pity, but during our time in the cockpit, well over an hour, we were given the potted history and strength of the 747 (forget which series), the function of the cockpit,which included throttling back one engine briefly to show the very little difference it made to the performance, and brief CVs of the pilots. He took great trouble and clearly some pleasure in showing us the ropes. It was a fascinating experience. I wish I could remember his name, he was pretty senior, and I think it started with "D".

Some years before on the way back from HK with BA, sitting upstairs (dunno why I was there, I was not first class) and bored asked if I could sit up front for the landing at LHR. No problem, in the jump seat and fascinated. Fascinating again. At least I've had the opportunity to see the sharp end in action.

Hampshire Hog

19th Sep 2006, 15:29

9/11 was a terrible event for many people.

Unfortunately, one of the lesser effects (relatively) was the end to flight deck visits whilst actually flying. These were an incredible help for fearful fliers; I had several - one into Monastir in the front of a L1011, sat up the front of a 767 going to Budapest and had a night landing into Heathrow in a 737 - now that was well impressive. It all set me off down the road of becoming a pilot and working hard to conquer my fear.

HH

gorgeous spotter

19th Sep 2006, 20:45

Gorgeous,

I have just spent about 1/2 an hour writing about engines only to lose the lot. I'll re-write it in a saved form and post it shortly, I promise. There'll be a short delay, I can only ask you to bear with me (just practising the patter!)

HH

Oh, ok then. How did you manage that? You are going to have to multi-task when you are flying us in an A320!!!!:p And the patter better be good!!:p

Gorgeous:)

Hampshire Hog

20th Sep 2006, 13:47

Gorgeous - Engines – as promised! (A320, I wish!)

When you get in your car and start it up, do you think much about it? It starts (usually!) without any hassle. You drive away without worrying about whether the motor is going to get you to your destination (OK, many years ago, I owned several cars where I wondered whether they really would make it to my destination, but those years are long past!). How many times has your car engine failed whilst running? So why would you be worried by an aeroplane engine – serviced to far more stringent standards and monitored closely by both engineers and the pilots using numerous systems and technologies?

Now, as you will know, there are several types of aeroplane engines. The piston engine in the PA28, which I fly, is not far removed from a car engine – save that car engines have advanced far more than avgas fuelled aero engines! The main fail-safe features additional to a car are dual magnetos – for power – and doubling of ignition systems – two plugs for each cylinder … all to ensure if one system fails there is a back-up. Both systems are tested before and after every flight.

Unless you’re into flying in vintage passenger planes, you will not find a piston engine in an airliner. They use something even more reliable – the jet.

Now, I hear you saying: but lots still have propellers. Yes, but these are ‘turbo-props’ effectively a jet engine optimised to drive a propeller on the front rather than to blast hot air out the back – although some actually do a bit of both.

The process in your car engine is pretty simple – fuel and air is drawn into the cylinder, squeezed to increase the temperature and potential for an efficient ‘bang’! The spark plug ignites the mixture which expands, pushing the piston down (moving the connecting rod, which drives a shaft producing rotational output from the engine – transmitted to the wheels throught the gearbox), then other opposing pistons push the first one back up – exhaust valves open and the residual gasses are pushed out through the exhaust. Hence the description of a petrol engine cycle: ‘suck, squeeze, bang, blow’.

Jet engines do something similar, but as a continuous cycle – air is drawn in at the front – then passed through ever smaller turbine chambers, which has the effect of squeezing it. When fuel is added the mixture ignites and the resulting expansion of hot air is blasted out the back – some is used to keep the turbine turning – and so the process becomes self sustaining. Because jet engines are manufactured to incredibly high standards, and because there are fewer moving parts than in a piston engine, they are very, very, reliable. The blast out of the back produces an equal and opposite reaction which thrusts the aircraft forwards. The jet is most efficient at high altitudes an so is the engine of choice for airliners doing longer routes. Modern jet engines are known as ‘high bye-pass engines’ because significant volumes of air are passed around the engine within the cowling. This helps efficiency and reduces noise.

At lower altitudes, a propeller is more efficient, hence the use of the turbo-prop on aircraft for shorter sectors, commuter and feeder routes. These aircraft can also be cheaper to operate. The turbine engine (same process as the jet) drives the propellers which are mostly variable pitch. Variable pitch propellers have a similar effect to the gears on your car. Fine pitch is used for take off, course (or courser) pitch used for the cruise. Fine is equivalent to 1st gear, course to the overdrive 5th or 6th gear. Some airlines have an SOP requiring the propellers to be placed in fine pitch shortly before landing – in case of the need to go around and try again. This is very noticeable and Flybe’s Dash 8, Q400s. In the cabin, you might hear a strange ‘engine noise’ coupled with the feeling that the aircraft is stopping in mid-air. This feeling is just an illusion, but a lady passenger sat next to me nearly broke my arm one day as she gripped on for dear life! It is not dangerous – actually, I quite look forward to it now – I think it’s quite fun watching unsuspecting passengers’ reactions – although I do genuinely sympathise with their fears as well.

Many people comment on the noise of reverse thrust, from jets and turbo-props. On a jet, there are doors which can be opened on the side of the engine, driving jet thrust out and slightly forwards to assist in slowing the aircraft and save brake wear. Turbo-props have either a similar system and/or use the propeller pitch to aid slowing down. This can be noisy, but you’re on the ground and it is not dangerous in any way.

Other noises associated with both types of engine relate to the pressurisation/air conditioning packs. These are powered by the engines and so tend to vary slightly in their operation as the engine speed is altered. Engines also drive the power for most aircraft systems, so you may see slight changes on entertainment systems, or flickering cabin lights, with variations in engine speed. Try this – sit in your car with the engine running, put on all the services – lights, rear screen heater, air conditioning, heater fan. Now rev the engine and listen to the heater fan speed changing. It’s all caused by the same thing – variation in the power drawn and available from the engine.

What if an engine does fail – especially on take-off. Well, not much really. If an engine fails before a speed known as V1, the speed at which the aircraft is calculated to be committed to take-off, the pilot will take off at the pre-calculated speed and climb at the single engine climb speed (a shallower climb than usual), notify the controller, then either do a circuit and re-land or go somewhere safe to consider the problem or dump fuel, or prepare for an overweight landing, before re-landing. All twin engine airliners can climb and fly quite safely on one engine. A really heavy aircraft, such as the 747, can climb on 3 and sustain cruise (maybe at a lower altitude) on 2. The chances of experiencing an engine failure are given as about 1 in 1 million. The chances of losing several are 1 in 1 million to the power of something ridiculous. There are only two really likely causes of that – fuel contamination (or loss) and ingestion of something horrible like volcanic ash. Fuel is checked, systems are supposed to prevent fuel contamination and, in turbine engines, it has to be pretty significant before it becomes a problem. Some years ago, a 747 flew in volcanic ash. It suffered multiple engine failures, but the pilot managed to get at least one engine re-started and the aircraft landed safely. Pilots study charts and receive warnings of volcanic activity and such scenarios are now positively avoided. So, not much really to worry about there.

On fly-by-wire planes, reliant on electrical systems, there will either be sufficient electrical power from the wind-milling engines, or they have an alternative ‘impeller’ – as was the case with the A340 which ran out of fuel over the Atlantic. It made a safe – albeit slightly heavy landing with sufficient power to drive the control systems.

So,

1) Aircraft need engines – because they can’t just flap their wings.
2) Engines produce more efficient thrust than flapping the wings!
3) Engines make lots of noise – sorry, they just do.
4) Older ‘low bye-pass’ engines make even more noise – they are noisy, not dangerous.
5) Jets and turbo-props are both very reliable. The propeller is just more efficient in some circumstances.
6) The noises change – just like your car engine.
7) When they do, other services may be affected – air, electrics – it is not dangerous.
8) Engines are never stopped or shut down in the air – except in an emergency (e.g. a fuel fire – a very rare event – all jet engines have at least two extinguisher systems and most fires just go out when the fuel to that engine is shut off – hence the need for a shut down). This is inconvenient, but not especially dangerous.
9) Engines must be pulled back to low speed/power for descent – otherwise the aircraft may exceed its safe operating speed.
10) Engines will also be pulled back when levelling off (e.g. for the cruise) – same reason as 9.
11) Changes in propeller pitch can often be heard – this is for efficiency – it is not dangerous.

I hope I’ve covered everything necessary on engines, but if anyone has any questions or a professional wants to add/correct anything – please do.

Gorgeous, I’m a GREAT multi-tasker – you should try me! However, my work computer has a terrible habit of demanding a further login when posting on pprune, during which it deletes my text.

I thought I might cover pressurisation and air systems next, but let me know if you’d like anything different.

HH
(Paul)

Hampshire Hog

20th Sep 2006, 13:55

A little add-on to my post above:

- Most airliners have another engine you don't see - called an APU (auxilliary power unit) - it provides power whilst the main engines are not running and where there is no ground power available (or used). You can normally hear it if you board a plane from outside, rather than over an airbridge. It is shut down after the main engines are started, and re-started before they are shut down. The APU itself is another small turbine run from the same fuel sources as the main engines. Air bled from compressors driven by the APU is used to start the main engines.

- How do you start a jet - many now have auto-starters, but the process is the same. Compressed air is used to turn the turbine (fan). When sufficient air pressure and temperature is reached, the fuel flow is switched on and the engine ignites. The starting process is more reliable than your car. There are a couple of complications which happen occasionally, but these are sorted on the ground, usually by abandoning the start, allowing the engine to cool and then having another go. It does not indicate a dodgy engine - just happens from time to time.

HH

gorgeous spotter

20th Sep 2006, 20:33

Once again HH super posts;:D I now don't feel so bad about engine noise and am going to put those thoughts into motion (ha ha) when I next fly in October. The volcanic ash incident has been discussed on here not too long ago (try archives) because there was someone who actually got to speak to that pilot about that incident (he made some sort of joke) and met with probably half a dozen expletives in jest, but fantastic achievement to that pilot for re-starting engines mid-flight and landing the plane; phew!! As for multi-tasking, thanks for re-typing all these points for us (shouldn't you be reading briefs???:p ); I never have the time at work to go into pprune, so I hog the computer in the study at night!! :E I really, really appreciate all your sterling posts HH, and I hope that all others reading too feel the same and that you have helped them to overcome one or two or their gremlin fears of flying! I hope that you do do pressurisation and air systems; this is so much light relief from legal jargon!:E

Gorgeous

Hampshire Hog

21st Sep 2006, 22:05

Been busy flying today. I'll try to do the next post tomorrow, but if not itwill be Monday.

HH

Chesty Morgan

21st Sep 2006, 22:28

Just a small correction if I may HH.

If an engine fails before a speed known as V1, the speed at which the aircraft is calculated to be committed to take-off, the pilot will take off at the pre-calculated speed and climb at the single engine climb speed

If an engine fails before V1 (stop/go speed if you like) we will stop, no questions. This is due to the reduced acceleration performance of the aeroplane and if we tried to continue the takeoff we would, probably, run out of runway.

However, if an engine fails between V1 and Vr (rotate speed; at which we start to pitch up to our climb attitude) then we would continue to accelerate to Vr and climb at the one engine inoperatvie (OEI) speed. This is because we will now be going too fast to stop in the remaining runway length. Although V1 and Vr are, generally, within a few knots of each other (if not the same speed, depends on runway length) you can have certain situations where there can be upto 25 knots difference in the two speeds.

Keep up the good work:ok:

gorgeous spotter

21st Sep 2006, 22:35

Chesty, Hampshire Hog has been asking pilots/others in previous posts to join in, so I'm sure he won't mind you correcting him! :) Hope you are well!

Gorgeous:)

Michael111

23rd Sep 2006, 22:54

Hi

I Love announcements from the flight deck. I would love a commentry from brakes off to brakes on.

Let me explain: I was on a British Midland flight from Jersey to Birmingham in the early 1990's that shut an engine down (DC9) in mid flight. No announcements made, Why were all the Fire services meeting us on arrival? A few years later ( October 2000) I was on a flight that left LGW bound for JER that never made it due to horrendous conditions that were in the area at the time. Flight crew told us that we were diverting to SOU but we crash Landed at Bournmouth. 6 Months later I was returning to JER from America via LGW when an engine failed on a 146 out of LGW. Comms on this occasion from the Capt was excellent.

Let me fast forward to 8 Sept 06. My Family & I were comming back to LGW from Paphos (PHO) with GB airways. The Captain was fantastic, Introducing himself whilst standing in the aisle, making regular in flight announcements whilst on route and welcoming us to LGW on arrival. This Captain allowed my kids on to the flight deck prior to departure and I have the photos to prove it.

After all of my incidents whilst flying, (over 200 flights with BA in the last 3 years) a Captain like the one from PFO to LGW would help me relax. Please all you Captains talk to your passangers as much as you can.

Thanks

Michael

Hampshire Hog

24th Sep 2006, 11:39

Chesty,

Thanks very much for that. I don't know what I was thinking - my fingers must have been running ahead of my brain! What Chesty said was exactly what I meant - and clearly not what I wrote! Lucky I'm not in an A320 yet!

I'm grateful for the correction - please feel free to add more.

More soon.

HH

Hampshire Hog

26th Sep 2006, 02:02

I'm afraid I'm away for work until Wednesday, so I'll have to apologise for the delay and do air systems and pressurisation in more detail then. A couple of points to keep you going though:

1) In most airliners, air is taken from the engine surrounds and fed into the cabin. Because this is hot, it is usually cooled first by air conditioning packs. There are several of these and one alone can do the job. Temperature is set on the flight deck, so if you are really too hot/cold, tell the cabin crew - if they are any good (and the point is reasonable) they'll tell the flight crew who can alter the temperature. Some airlines (cheapskates) try to cook people in the cabin by keeping the heat higher than it should be - less work for the air conditioning packs uses less fuel = more brownie points.

2) Air density at 38,000 feet is considerably less than at sea level. So much less that there is insufficient oxygen to sustain consciousness in the average human being. In an airliner at 38,000 ft therefore, you need more air density than the ambient density (which is more than enough to fly the plane - just not enough to breathe). It is achieved by pumping air into the cabin at a greater rate than it is let out the back. The outflow (and thus, pressure) is controlled by valves. On most airliners, there are separate types of valve and separate control systems, so all should not be lost at once. This rule may be changing on the new A380, which has several valves from the same manufacturer. The point is, the systems are duplicated.

3) When the cabin is pressurised, you cannot open any doors or emergency exits - even if the nutter in row 9 tries, you'll be perfectly safe. The pressure holds them in place and they will only release once the plane has been de-pressurised.

4) In the extremely unlikely event of a sudden depressurisation, the flight crew will usually put on oxygen masks (passenger masks may also drop - depending on how high you are - put them on straight away - and do yours before helping anyone else, you may have only a short time of useful consciousness). The pilots then turn the aircraft off track, select a safe altitude on the auto-pilot and maximum rate of descent. Because there may be some sudden condensing of water in the cabin (misting), the steep rate of descent coupled with some vibration from the speed brakes (helping to increase the rate of descent and keeping the aircraft below the maximum handling speed) the whole maneouvre will almost certainly scare the life out of passengers - whether or not they are usually fearful flyers. What you need to know is that these incidents are very very rare and that the flight crew will be managing everything for maximum safety using the automatic systems to reduce the risk of human error. Your ears may hurt like hell and your heart may be doing overtime, but this type of incident is very unlikely to kill you. I have asked several pilots about this and I have yet to meet one (personally) who has ever experienced a cabin de-pressurisation for real. They do happen, just not very often, and a good number of those that do are not very dramatic, because they comprise of the cabin failing to pressurise properly when climbing (in which case the climb is just stopped early and, if the destination can be reached at a lower safe altitude, the flight will continue).

5) But what about the Helios accident in Greece? Well, I just don't know about that. It was almost unique as an incident and a whole thread on here has been subject to substantial contribution from people far more qualified than I. However scarey it sounds, I would try to put in the the context of many thousands of flights taking place safely throughout the world every day.

6) Even IF you were slow to put your mask on, you may become unconscious. So long as the pilots descend the plane in a timely fashion, you will simply come around again when there is sufficient air density.

7) So, a VERY RARE event, one of the few that can be genuinely alarming for all concerned, but you are unlikely to suffer anything worse than some lasting deafness (in the event of a perforated eardrum).

Any pilots whose companies have different SOPs for this, I'd be interested to hear about them.

HH

gorgeous spotter

26th Sep 2006, 20:46

:) Thanks HH, interesting; think though that I would prefer not to be on a plane when that happens with the air pressure; pretty damn scary!! Posting at 3am, couldn't sleep?:p

Gorgeous

Chesty Morgan

26th Sep 2006, 22:02

But what about the Helios accident in Greece? Well, I just don't know about that

I'm only repeating heresay, I haven't read the accident report so don't shoot me down if it's wrong.

A bit of preamble.

With the pressurisation system on our aircraft we have 3 settings: Manual; Auto; Dump. I'm assuming the 737 has a similar system (any 737 chaps want to correct me?). We usually use the system in Auto and it just gets on and does it's thing. Occasionally we have to use Manual if the Auto system is playing silly buggers. This is perfectly safe and a recognised procedure, it just means that we have to pay more attention to the pressurisation and adjust it accordingly. Dump is used for such things as smoke clearance and basically it opens the outflow valves fully to vent the internal air.

Apparently the Helios pressuriation system was left at Dump, I think by the engineers, and it was missed by both pilots during their before start checklist. This then meant that the aircraft would not pressurise. The pressuriation warning was ignored by both pilots, they thought it was related to something else, and ultimately resulted in their incapacitation due to hypoxia.

As an aside. After the last flight of the day we used to select the pressurisation to Dump (I can't recall why) but we now leave it in Auto. Good call I say!

HH and Gorgeous if you're interested. On my type, Dash 8 Q400, there are NO drop down oxygen masks for the passengers. The flight deck has oxygen masks which supply upto 2 hours of emergency O2 if it's needed.

Basically this is because the maximum operating altitude is 25000 feet and the aeroplane had to be able to reach 14000 feet within 4 minutes for certification purposes. Therefore it was deemed unnecessary for passenger oxygen as you would be back in breathable air very quickly. We even have time to request an emergency decent rather than just dive ('scuse the pun!) straight into one.

Check out this link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_of_Useful_Consciousness) which should allay some of your fears Gorgeous:ok:

Interestingly I've heard that the pressurisation can cope with the loss of one window, or a hole the size of one, and still maintain the cabin altitude. I've never tried to prove that though!

gorgeous spotter

26th Sep 2006, 22:32

Cheers Chesty, but can't get into the link.

Gorgeous:)

Chesty Morgan

26th Sep 2006, 22:33

Gorgeous, try searching for "Time of Useful Consciousness" on Wikipedia:ok:

gorgeous spotter

26th Sep 2006, 22:41

Thanks Chesty, will try that; now am going unconscious, night night!!

Gorgeous:)

Hampshire Hog

26th Sep 2006, 23:10

3am, yes well, away for work - too much beer, can't sleep. Thank goodness I'm going home tomorrow - rubbish hotel too:hmm:

Chesty, thanks very much for that. I've flown on the q400 quite a lot as PAX, I live close to SOU and I guess you probably fly for one of the main operators that flies out of there! (or Scandinavian?)

I never realised that type didn't have masks in the cabin - I guess I never noticed the absence of that part of the cabin crew briefing. Nice plane to fly on though and I really appreciate your professional input here.

I agree with Gorgeous, a depressurisation is one of the most dramatic things that can happen to you on an airliner. I really don't want to scare anyone so, while describing what happens, I would emphasise again how rare that is. It still scares me a little, but I'm content to accept that the chances are very low and that, if I am unlucky enough ever to encounter it, at least I'll know what the procedure is. When I find myself sat in the back worrying about it, I just remember a flight engineer I met who told me, just before his retirement, 'Well I've never experienced one' and neither had any of his colleagues on the flight deck.

Chesty, thanks for the input on the Helios incident. I think I remember reading something about the aircraft failing to pressurise. I still don't understand why two pilots missed or ignored the alarms, but since one of my particular interests is human factors, I guess I'll have to put it down to just that. A bizaar instance of groupthink and possibly miscommunication on the flight deck.

Now you say about the lost window scenario, I remember my dad (who used to work as a scientist in the aviation structures deparment at RAE Farnborough) telling me about the testing of the Comet airliners (on which he flew as a test engineer - with them looking for thunderstorms and spinning the things to see if they would fall to pieces - scary). He also told me about the experiments they did to see what would happen to Concord in the event of a sudden depressurisation. It was designed to hold together, even though all sorts of things might go flying out of the window. Interestingly, there have been a couple of incidents of depressurisation caused by whole sections of aircraft skin being lost (not to mention the occasional window). Few have resulted in hull loss.

As I said, I will add a bit more to this subject when I get home and have sufficient reference material available to me. Thank goodness my PA28 doesn't have such complications!

Gorgeous, if you want to see some of this in practice - I'll be happy to offer you a short flight in a small plane once I've covered all the subjects I intend to cover. Alternatively, you could see if one of the ATPLs on here would be prepared to fly with you on a short trip as PAX. The learning from this can really help. There are also, as you will have seen, commercial companies that offer that kind of thing. I think if you can arrange something informally, you will do just as well for a lot less money.

HH

hpcock

27th Sep 2006, 12:51

[quote=knobbygb;2797064]Despite all the reasons above, there do seem to be less announcements made these days than, say 10 years ago.

I personally (as just pax) put this down to the fact that pilots these days are less happy in their work - more worried about the latest "security" procedures, threats, management penny-pinching and backstabbing and are generally less inclined to make that extra bit of effort. To be honest I can't blame them. I know that probably isn't true of everyone, but the industry has changed so much... Also, people generally fly much more often now so often don't want the full explanation of exactly what's happening and that everything's going to be OK. I know there are nervous fliers still, but surely less than in the past, in general.

Hey knobby et al

Lets not forget that pilots (& speaking as one), have had their work load in the last 10 yrs drastically increased. By that, I mean having to deal with excess traffic in & around airports.

I still know many pilots, inc yours truly who really enjoy keeping the punters informed & amused, but it can be difficult at times when you know ATC are going to be barrelling in your ear for the next 20 mins - you just can't ignore them. So in response to "knobbygb's" comments above they cannot be any further from the truth.

The majority of my flying takes place in S/SE Asia, & I will always take the time to point out any places of interest along route. Only last week my pax were treated to a rare, but wonderful view of Mt Everest at 25nms during morning twilight. Even though it happened only 15 mins after depature, we still made time to tell the pax.

Next time your pilot takes the time to have a chat with you, remember it might be the only window of opportunity that he/she gets, not because they are lazy sods.

Thanks for letting me rant
HPC

gorgeous spotter

27th Sep 2006, 19:10

HH, thanks for the response, and I am glad that Chesty has joined in and is adding interesting points. Will wait then for you to cover more things when you are back from your work jaunt. Are you away for a case? Anyhow, THANKS for the offer of the short flight; really really incredible of you,:ok: but not sure I'd be ideal company, would scream the whole way through it for you.:\ Can just about cope with big planes, so am not sure about small aircraft. If, however, you are ever flying near or at MAN please let me know. Would like to come and watch you; that may give me some confidence!!

Thanks Hampshire Hog,

Gorgeous

Hampshire Hog

28th Sep 2006, 14:23

Gorgeous,

You'll be more than welcome to meet and watch me fly. What would probably be helpful would be for you to come and sit in the plane (so a small airfield is better, rather than MAN, where I imagine security is a pain), so I can take you around some of the bits and pieces and show you the instruments, which are far simpler versions of what is on a modern airliner. More on them later. Anyway, we'll leave that for when I've finished this series of lessons - there is no pressure. The aim is to make you feel better about flying in the big aeroplanes you need to use, not scare you in my small one!

When I checked what I have at home on air systems and pressurisation, I found I didn't have much more to add (without making it all horribly complicated).

In some airliners, compressed air is also used to operate slats (see previous article about wings) and as back-up to other drive systems. I seem to recall that some RAF types use compressed air for undercarriage extension/retraction. Cooled air from the air conditioning is also used for cooling electrical plant.

I did not mention anything about actual altitude of cabin pressure and humidity either. To build an aircraft strong enough to pressurise the inside as if it were at sea level would result in too much weight being carried on the airframe. So, most airliners are pressurised to an air density equivalent to around 5,000 - 7,000 feet (depending on the aircraft type). Most people are comfortable at these altitudes - it's not much different to going about 3/4 of the way up a typical mountain in the Bernese Oberland (Switzerland). The systems depressurise back to airfield altitude during descent (when your ears block/pop - more on this in a later post). Interestingly, there are a couple of airports which are actually higher than the usual pressure altitude and so the plane is de-pressurise to that altitude instead. We don't have any such airports in Europe.

Humidity can be a problem. Most people are familiar with feeling rather 'dry' after spending too long in an air conditioned environment. At cruise altitude, the same applies and there is less moisture in the air coming into the air conditioner as well. Some (but not all) planes have humidifying systems to mitigate the problem. However, best advice is to avoid dehydrating drinks (which most fearful flyers use to calm them down;) ) and to drink lots of water. The down side is that, if you get the balance wrong, you have to get up to go to the toilet a lot, which some fearful flyers worry will cause the plane to tip. Don't worry, it won't. Even if your weight did cause a shift in the balance, the trim would automatically be adjusted and the wing levelers will keep it all straight and level. As an aside, taking a short stroll and realising nothing happens might help with some of your fears. It will also help stop you getting DVT.

I can't remember if I covered hydraulic systems earlier, I'll have a read and check. If not, I'll do that next, followed by a post about what the pilots look at on the flight deck (which obviously depends on the aircraft type to some extent).

More soon.

HH

Smiliesam

28th Sep 2006, 20:08

gorgeous spotter

28th Sep 2006, 22:05

Hampshire Hog, hope others reading your posts appreciate them as much as me!! :ok: Great effort again and research and thanks. Know what you mean about drinking water, but no, for me its whatever is on offer, preferably champers or something!!. :E When I do go to the loo, espcially on last flights loo was right near the cockpit door and do feel once you are in a) will the door open and you can get out again or b) will the plane dip when you flush?? Something for all you pilots/crews to LOL at!! :O Sure others feel that way too.

Looking forward to the next posts; especially flight deck bit.:)

Gorgeous

Middle Seat

28th Sep 2006, 22:20

If you want some more 'chat' and are on United, just tune in to channel 9 and you can hear who is out and about in the skies with you.
However, if you are on a Q200 with Alaska, you can hear most of what happens on the flight deck!

If you're on a Q200 with Alaska, pinch yourself and wake up, or stop drinking. Q200s are operated by Horizon Air (but yes, they do all carry an AS code, and Horizon is owned by Alaska Air Group)

...just to be pedantic. :8

but then again, there is free beer and wine on all Horizon flights. ;)

Smiliesam

29th Sep 2006, 15:49

Hey, I did 4 flights as a SLF, Spokane- Seatle -Vancouver (Alaskan, Yes, Horizon) - Dulles - LHR (Virgin) and am still reeeling a bit!

Heard on Channel 9;
'Not hearing you much, Cleveland'
Plaintive return 'I have no one to talk to' Aaah....

h.

Pax Vobiscum

29th Sep 2006, 19:24

While Channel 9 is a personal favourite, I'm not sure that I would recommend it for nervous fliers. Heard in the (seemingly endless) queue at LAX waiting for our turn to use the runway:

"Birdseed 123 - are you clear to take-off?"
"Negative - we're behind the Lear Jet."
(Apologies to the pros if I've got the terminology a bit wrong, but that was certainly the gist of it.)

I'm sure pax have no reason to be concerned about such a conversation, but it probably wouldn't reassure our more nervous colleagues that the tower have everything under complete control!

Superfly

29th Sep 2006, 21:20

1) We (pilots) have to taxi the a/c to holding point before Take-off. Very little time to talk to Joe Public as it can be quite a busy part of the flight ( taxy clearance + change frequency + t/o brief review, navaids idents.....)
2) Take off + Departure...... whoooooooo good rush of blood to the the brain!!! V+ busy (especially in the London TMA)
3) Reach cruise altitude.... cool..... workload reduces ... Ah! I think : hum ... Shall I talk to the punters ? No ! There is a film being played:ooh: wait for the brake ....
4) this is the film break. "hello you're captain again, we are now cruising at 32000 ft.... bla bla bla.........
5) the film ends, the Cabin crew have to sell their goods......
6) oooppppssss we landed. bye bye, see you next time !

gorgeous spotter

30th Sep 2006, 16:32

And I've noticed you speak fluent French too??:) Very talented.:ok:

Happy Flying

Gorgeous

vendetta

1st Oct 2006, 20:42

Vendetta,
Let me know the message bord for fearful flyers. I used to run from departure gate, but overcame my fears - various techniques - including becoming a ppl. I'd love to help others with this debilitating fear if I can.

Hey HH,

sorry about the late reply, I never checked back on this thread until now. But the message board is in German anyway, and I don't know if you speak German ;) so I guess you wouldn't be able to help much either way? But the link Glamgirl posted is a good alternative for other fearful flyers. And I have overcome most of my fears anyways. :ok:

Aaaaanyways, let me address some points here.

I sympathise entirely with the feeling that some reassurance is gained by the occasional message from the flight deck. There are several reasons for this. First, the sound of a calm voice - no matter what the message - from someone in the front of the aircraft impacts on the subconscious with the message - calm = all is well (but remember, a good captain could make you feel safe even if the plane is falling apart). Secondly, a little commentary - routing after take-off, cruise position (on a longer flight and where no map is available so passengers can see where they are) and a warning before the engines are pulled back for descent (with est time to landing) can be very reassuring. This needn't be disturbingly long - just a succinct message. I find I want more information on aircraft without the map/flight information screens.

Whilst airlines feel the need to give business travellers peace and quiet, I have come across many regular business travellers who also suffer from nervousness about flying. Most would be reassured by short messages. Research has shown that some 80% of people suffer from fear of flying to some extent. Airlines should remember that 80% of the population = a lot of potential customers. One especially fearful fight without any reassurance from the flight deck can put a customer off for life.

I flew back from GLA a few weeks ago with BA, on a particuarly stormy day. The captain was excellent - especially after the cabin crew folded the map screens up - telling us where the next bout of turb was expected and so on. Sometimes, the all important business traveller must put up with some reassurance for the common herd - in the interests of the industry.
If you want to cut the disturbance on flights, get rid of some of the pointless sales messages that the cabin crew are now required to spout.
HH

I was on a flight that left LGW bound for JER that never made it due to horrendous conditions that were in the area at the time. Flight crew told us that we were diverting to SOU but we crash Landed at Bournmouth. 6 Months later I was returning to JER from America via LGW when an engine failed on a 146 out of LGW. Comms on this occasion from the Capt was excellent.
Let me fast forward to 8 Sept 06. My Family & I were comming back to LGW from Paphos (PHO) with GB airways. The Captain was fantastic, Introducing himself whilst standing in the aisle, making regular in flight announcements whilst on route and welcoming us to LGW on arrival. This Captain allowed my kids on to the flight deck prior to departure and I have the photos to prove it.
After all of my incidents whilst flying, (over 200 flights with BA in the last 3 years) a Captain like the one from PFO to LGW would help me relax. Please all you Captains talk to your passangers as much as you can.

This is exactly my point. While I understand that you can't please everyone (business travellers who want peace vs. nervous flyers who would die for regular announcements vs. busy-as-hell pilots), it is just reassuring to hear the cockpit voice every now and then. I think it's actually more of a psychological component - it gives you the feeling that everything is ok in the cockpit and that the guys are still alive. ;) This is also the reason why "telling the flight attendants about your fears and they'll help you", whilst it being a nice advice, is not the same as hearing from the cockpit, because the flight attendants are not the ones flying the bird, you know what I mean? A "sign" from the cockpit would just help because of indicating that the guys are not sleeping, fallen unconscious or whatever. ;)

Thanks for your effort of typing down all the technical aspects, HH. I have informed myself about all those aerodynamical stuff, how a plane works and flies, that turbulences are no problem for the plane etc. long ago, so that's not a problem for me. But I agree that knowledge is a crucial step to overcome the fears, it helps alot to calm down because you are able to explain those "weird noises and actions" during take-off, flight and landing, so kudos to you. I have also experienced twice that calming down other passengers helps to reduce my own fears, weird but true. Well, back to the point, I know the statistics of "airplane vs. car" (btw: what I still don't get is that it is always highlighted how safe a plane is in comparison with how many people die on the roads each day. Sure, but the likelihood of surviving a car accident is much higher than surviving a plane crash. Which is why I think that comparison is not really appropriate), I know that it's technically safe to fly and that an aircraft is probably one of the most advanced means of transport; I am able to explain most of the noises and other things during a regular flight (if not something unexpected happens, that is) and I am pretty much at ease with flying, but still there are some unwanted, irrational fears, as I have explained in another thread. I think it's also because you are stuck in that tube with those small windows, not able to figure out what's going on around you. There was a very nice analogy from somebody in that fearful forum: "The feeling in a plane is kinda like being a blindfolded passenger on a motor-bike." And I think it's also because of the control aspect. You are depending on completely strange, unknown people, may it be the pilots, the engineers or the flight attendants. This is also why some re-assurance of those "strangers" would help.

Let me give an example: The "trigger flight" was a crosswind experience about 18 months ago. Before that I was never afraid of flying, not even slightly. But it was night, dark, rainy and stormy and I actually started feeling sick when we were descending, probably because of descending very fast? I don't know, but I was looking around me and nearly all passengers didn't look very comfortable, haha, so I guess it wasn't only me. Then there was the touch and landing on one wheel, like it is required with crosswinds, and it felt terrible because nobody knew what was going on. It was bumpy and it felt like we were waaaaay to fast and we all thought we wouldn't make it until the end of the runway. And the cockpit crew didn't say a single word. Of course, it might have been that the crosswinds came unexpected and, well, I guess crosswinds are not the easiest thing to handle so the pilots were busy and all the attention had to be focused on the safe landing, no problem. But they could have warned us before, like, I guess they were informed by ATC that there would be strong winds, so they could have told us before approaching that the landing might be a bit rough? I guess then we all would have been a bit more relaxed because we would have known what to expect. I don't know, but we were all scared as hell and that landing was a bit of a shock because like I said, it came without a warning. That experience made me engage in gathering information about aerodynamics, aeronautical engineering etc. (where I also found out that our landing was perfectly normal and the right way to handle crosswinds), so at least something good came out of it. But my point is, it would have been better if there had been a cockpit announcement.

Another example: 3 months after that I flew again, nighty night time again and a bit stormy outside. But the pilot was great, he kept us informed all the time...well, I have already mentioned it in my first posting here: the pilot was giving announcements very often during the flight, and it was soooo helpful. Like, we are about to experience some turbulences, but don't worry, no serious stuff and it's only gonna take that long ... or: we got the information that there will be some light winds ahead of us, which is why I am turning on the seatbelt sign, so please stay calm, there is no need to worry... and all that in such a slow, calm and relaxed voice that I had no fears at all, even though all the bad memories from the crosswind landing came back. He also mentioned if or if not the flight was on time and at the end when we were approaching FRA he told us about the weather and the temperature there. Not that I cared, but it was just a nice gesture - which is what I'm talking about the whole time: Just talking itself helps alot. He was such a treasure, unfortunately I don't know his name or the flight # , I would have loved to drop a line to Delta Airlines about that great member of staff. Perhaps he is a member of this forum as well and reading this. It was a Delta night flight from JFK to FRA in April 2005 and perhaps it helps for remembering which flight I'm talking about that some passengers ignored the seatbelt sign and wanted to use the toilets and so the pilot had to make an extra announcement that "everybody sit down now and fasten the seatbelt, I don't want you to walk around or using the toilets, I didn't make the announcement for fun, it's just for your own safety" ... haha, great. So, dear unknown captain, if you are reading this, thanks for your excellent job, keep up the good work, you are a true role model for your job. :ok: It was such a nice experience that I still vividly remember it and I often think back to it.

But, anyway, based on my experiences with other flights, the above mentioned experience seems to be the exception than the rule, because like I said, I have been on flights where there weren't announcements, the seatbelt signs were just switched on without a single word and I was like "OMG, what kind of heavy turbulences are we going to experience now?" because nobody said why the seatbelt signs were on. If there were announcements that everything is alright (even if there are no turbulences), it would be just fine. Doesn't even have to be every 5 minutes, haha, maybe every 2 hours or just in the middle of the flight (depending on the length of the flight and the business) one announcement and fearful passengers would be cool.

As this thread shows, I don't seem to be the only passenger that would prefer more announcements, so if you have the time and are not too busy, please talk to us a bit more, we would appreciate it very much. :)

Globaliser

2nd Oct 2006, 14:30

As it happens, I was on the flight portion of a fear of flying course last night, lending moral support to two friends doing the entire course.

This would be the dream of the nervous passengers who would like a running commentary. Specifically for the purpose of explaining everything that was going on, one of the course organisers did exactly that for the entire flight - about 70 minutes block time. The friends who I was with said that they very much appreciated that, and between that and the course itself now knew a lot more about what was going on.

There are two of these that I know of: one affiliated with British Airways (http://www.aviatours.co.uk) and one affiliated with Virgin Atlantic (http://www.flyingwithoutfear.info). I doubt that you could go wrong with either. The people running the show yesterday really wanted all the participants to succeed.

Hampshire Hog

3rd Oct 2006, 14:39

Hi All,

I think these fear of flying courses are pretty good, but you have to have the nerve to book on them in the first place. They can be quite hard to get information on, although I know BA customer services will refer you to their affiliated provider.

I have just been reviewing the reams written on this thread. I realised when I did wings I left out quite a vital control surface - the ailerons! The main ailerons are usually out the outer trailing edge of the wings. They move in opposition, one creating more lift and the other reducing it - unless they are in neutral balance, with neither doing anything; you experience this as the aircraft banking. Once one wing is creating more lift than the other, it flies relatively faster, producing a turning effect - this is how aircraft turn during most phases of the flight - not the rudder (as with boats). There are all sorts of more complicated aerodynamic niceties to do with ailerons, but I don't think we need to go into them here. When the aircraft is at speed in the cruise, you may see 'inner ailerons' operating (if fitted). On a 747 they can be seen between the two sets of flaps. At speed, less aileron action is required to make the stay level or bank, so these ailerons have less moment (i.e. they are closer to the roll axis so have less effect) and are smaller. In fact, the inner and outer ailerons are often linked, providing the best result for the airspeed. Ailerons on airliners are usually activated by hydraulics - more on these later.

I mentioned the rudder above, which I have not covered before. You will almost certainly know that this sits at the back on the vertical tail fin. On the 747-400, there are actually two sections which work in parallel. It fulfils two functions - balancing in turns and yawing (right or left) which is mainly used in flight when close to the ground (taking off and landing). On the ground, the rudder helps with ground steering, often being coupled to the nosewheel steering. Vendetta mentions a crosswind approach above - so let's talk through it. In an airliner, the plane will be set up for landing several miles out on the runway heading (at most airports - the famous, now closed, Kai Tak at Hong Kong was a notable exception). If there is a crosswind, the wings will be kept level, but the rudder used to steer the nose into the wind. In a strong crosswind, passengers may be able to see the landing runway out of the side windows! In effect, the plane is crabbing through the air, flying into the wind enough to stay on the runway centre line. The nose is re-aligned with the runway shortly before touchdown. However, the crosswind may also lift the wing on the side from which it is blowing, so the pilot may feed in a little aileron to keep the wings level or, as the plane is aligned with the runway, actually lower the wing to land on the windward mainwheels first. This may all feel very strange from the cabin, but is quite standard and very well practiced - in my experience crosswinds are the norm rather than an exception.

Now, hydraulic systems. These vary between airliners but, typically, an airliner will have two or three systems, each of which can be switched to back up the other. The 747-400 has 4 systems! Hydraulics provide the simplest most powerful way of controlling major systems such as control surfaces (sometimes the flaps and slats are operated by hydraulic drives as well. You have one such system in your car - the brakes. Can't think of a more important bit of the car from a safety perspective - and except in the films where someone cuts the pipe, they hardly ever fail. Just like your car, airliners use hydraulics for wheel braking. They also use hydraulics to raise and lower the undercarriage. There are two potential failings with hydraulic systems - leakage and noise. The first is dealt with (as most things on airliners) by way of much duplication and back-up systems. On the 747-400 the undercarriage is driven by hydraulics, but electrical back-up systems allow it to be lowered by gravity as well, with a wind-down system for the nosewheel. Hydraulic flaps may be backed up by electric operation ...

You will see on another thread considerable discussion about funny noises on the A319. This is caused by balancing of hydraulic pressure after start-up. It may sound strange, but is not dangerous in any way. You may also feel some vibration from hydraulic pumps if you are sitting in the wrong place during the approach pattern - as the plane is configured for landing.

Any questions on this? I feel like I've been waffling rather randomly in this post.

Next, as promised, the flight deck.

HH

PilotsOfTheCaribbean

3rd Oct 2006, 15:25

HH

Although you have set yourself up as a bit of an expert, some of the stuff you are spouting is drivel. Slats driven by compressed air, Rudder steering nose into wind. I appreciate you are trying to be helpful and as a cherokee ppl probably have little experience other than reading and anecdote. This is a bulletin board full of professional aviators with a wealth of heavy jet experience. Why not leave any questions for those with the experience ?

Globaliser

3rd Oct 2006, 22:12

This is a bulletin board full of professional aviators with a wealth of heavy jet experience. Why not leave any questions for those with the experience ?Two good reasons:

First, this is the SLF board, where relatively few pilots venture.

Second, none of the thousands of professional pilots who frequent PPRuNe have bothered to spend even 1% of the time and energy that HH has spent to help out those who have asked for help on this thread.

BitMoreRightRudder

3rd Oct 2006, 22:47

Globaliser makes a good point I think Mr Hog has done a good job condensing complex aircraft systems into a few paragraphs, hopefully it has been helpful to some who read this board. I think his knowledge is pretty good for someone who freely admits to holding no professional license.

You get far more bulls*it and hot air in Rumours and News than in this thread, and very often from people with no aviation experience at any level!

On the subject of cockpit announcements I tend not to do many as I really don't think the majority listen to a word. When I first started I was under the impression you were hanging on every piece of info, and would tend to be a bit flowery particularly on long flights, but a few flights positioning as crew made me realise that most PAs are ignored by the majority. I can't really blame you either as my airline and others are guilty of bombarding the cabin with PAs trying to sell things and you barely get a moments peace. I realise that there will always be a few on board who will appreciate a PA from the flightdeck and for that reason I still make a short one if it is my sector. I have noticed an increasing number of captains I fly with who will not make any PAs' at all!

PilotsOfTheCaribbean

3rd Oct 2006, 23:37

I am not sure they are 2 good reasons since I suspect rather more pilots venture through here than you realise. This is the SLF forum within the Professional pilots website after all.

Possibly the reason why supposedly those pilots have contributed less than 1% to the thread is because the question has become somewhat muddled. However in accepting that criticism I will try and add something to the discussion.

It is certainly important and it is promoted, to remember the fact that there are often hundreds of passengers behind that armoured door for whom life often moves at a more leisurely pace than it does for the pilot. It is a point that is sometimes overlooked and does need to be given thought.

Whenever possible and certainly on most occaisions a welcome P.A ought to be given , by the Captain, once everybody is on board. This should set out the important "Time and tide" stuff. How long, how high, and the initial departure information. The address should be reassuring calm and authoritive. Ideally the welcome should reinforce the importance of the safety briefings and effectively then hand off to the senior crew member for the continuation of that briefing.

One of the reasons this sometimes does not happen is the simple lack of time. Delayed boarding, loading, paperwork completion and the frequent knife edge constraints of slot time limitations where a one minute loss can cause a two hour delay, means that practicaly the address sometimes has to be dropped or otherwised rushed, the latter often sounding poorly presented and therefore self defeating.

It is not generally good practice or good airmanship to be giving addresses at times when the aircarft is manouevering either on the ground, or when climbing, descending or turning in flight. These are busy periods when all the flight deck crews attention is given to monitoring and careful cross checking. However once established in level cruise those requirements are more relaxed and that is often a good time for the handling pilot to provide more information to the passengers.

It is a matter of personal experience and judgement as to the degree of content and length of such P.A's, but obviously the intention is to deliver in a manner that reflects the professionalism of the speaker to the audience. The increasing use of in flight entertainment systems (IFE) these days often seems to negate the desirability of overspoken P.A's that interrupt the show. Personally I have always thought that the flying experience and flight deck comment should supercede watching an edited film or old comedy show on a tiny and poorly angled TV screen, but it is not a view that is universally shared ! Sometimes a bit of planning and liason between the flight deck and the cabin works in this regard, but again time constraints often get in the way.

Prior to descent the flight deck should be able to deliver arrival airport information and take the opportunity to thank the passengers for their custom together with whatever reminders may be relevant or important. Sometimes it can occur that decent has to commenced earlier than planned for any number of reasons and once again the aircraft is in that phase of flight when operation and monitoring are all important. In such circumstances the delivery may have to be curtailed or delegated according to the circumstance.

Obviously communication plays a vitaly important role in aviating, and communication with the passengers is an important aspect of that role. However as I have tried to explain there are priorities and realities that often mean such communication has to be delegated or omitted.

With regard to nervous flyers. Five odd years ago and before, an effective tool we could choose to employ in some countries ( and often did ) to help nervous flyers, was the ability to invite some of these passegers to the flight deck. In almost all cases it had a very positive effect. Unfortunetaly the post 911 world is a very different one. Indeed it is one where fear is often promoted and the ability to allay it is given a very low level of importance. From the check-in to security, to boarding, to armoured doors and a whole host of restrictive procedures, the whole experience has degenerated for even the most laid back flyers, both passengers and crew. Our customers are now a potential threat to be kept locked behind steel doors ? Our tools of the trade are confiscated from us by security as a potential threat to the passengers and those on the ground ? I think that the images from 11th September 2001 have become the new benchmark for a fear of flying. In this climate there is precious little concern for someone who is afraid of the sound the undercarriage makes when it is being raised or lowered. It is very unfortunate, but it is the reality of this era.

Hampshire Hog

4th Oct 2006, 15:23

Perhaps Pilots of the Caribbean would like to explain why this quotation is wrong - concerning the 747-400:

"Pneumatic power is used to operate certain equipment ... Leading edge slats arranged in four separate sections on each wing are operated by pneumatic drive units" (Capt. Stanley Stewart, who was, at the time of writing, a 747-400 Captain with BA)

Had Mr Caribbean read my posts, he would recognise that in most I have invited professionals to correct/add to them. I have recognised, time and time again, that I am doing this as a humble ppl who flies the PA28. I'm grateful for the positive contributions made by Chesty and BitMoreRightRudder - and I openly acknowledge one error (re. v1 and aborted take-offs) which was actually caused by finger trouble on the keyboard rather than lack of knowledge.

I was taught, during my ppl, by a retired 747 captain and a retired 767 captain and we had many discussions about how things are done in airliners, compared to a light aircraft. I doubt we covered everything by a long way, but what knowledge I have gleaned, I am pleased to offer those who might be reassured by it.

I acknowledge that on most airliners rudder use is mainly restricted to directional control on the ground. However, my understanding is that many commercial pilots use it - together with the ailerons - once the auto-pilot has been disconnected on approach.

In almost every one of my posts the words 'on some types' appear. I don't know about every airliner type and I doubt Mr Caribbean does either. What I do know, is that there are significant differences between them in control systems and SOPs.

I am sorry if Pilots of the Caribbean feels his pitch is being invaded here. It would have been more helpful had he posted something positive - as have other professionals - adding to the knowledge of those reading, rather than simply criticising (a notable habit of those who reside in the rumours and news section).

Pilots of the Caribbean may be a remarkably experienced ATPL with loads to offer. However, his public profile does not state that he is, what type he flies or give any indication as to what airline he might fly for. That is a pity, because I was asked earlier in this thread what airlines I would avoid. Given the human factors awareness demonstrated by this individual - his may well feature. I would hate to be a first officer working under the threat of such criticism and I don't much fancy the potential of that flight deck relationship as a passenger!

Once again, I would be more than grateful for positive contributions (and corrections;) ) to my efforts by those who work as ATPLs, and I'm sure other readers would too.

More soon.

HH

PilotsOfTheCaribbean

4th Oct 2006, 16:16

Sometimes the pedestals we climb upon can get a bit wobbly Mr HH. If you want to continue to teach the world that is up to you, but it seems to digress from the original question. If you feel posting reams from your fountain of knowledge is helpful and together with your invitation to correct your errors, that is fine. Again the subject seemed to be about the apparent lack of "cockpit announcements", but I guess whatever platform works for you ?

Your concern about being a First Officer working (for ?) with me is somewhat misplaced as you clearly are not. Your fear of being a passenger is also fairly ludicrous since you might have been already and really cannot make an informed judgement by your own admission. In summary you are demonstrating what I had already perhaps untactfully alluded to as a verbose delivery of something you clearly had little expertise in.

However along with many others, I look forward to your next chapter on the flight deck. Did you actually read the reply about why there are sometimes so few cockpit announcements ?

Globaliser

4th Oct 2006, 18:13

Again the subject seemed to be about the apparent lack of "cockpit announcements", but I guess whatever platform works for you ?No, I think that the thread long ago drifted off the narrow headline subject into areas which are directly related to the spirit in which the thread was started, namely helping nervous flyers. Speaking for myself, I think it's a great idea. Nobody here has minded. And IMHO, HH has done a sterling job in taking time to answer the questions which there obviously are about other aspects of flying, and which the readers of this thread seem to be gratefully soaking up.

So a gentle request from another reader: please can you lay off the criticism of HH, but help by providing information, updates or corrections?

TightSlot

4th Oct 2006, 19:19

This seemed to me to be a fairly harmless thread, with strong potential to do some small good. HH has taken considerable time to post information that some may find helpful. It is hard to understand why this might be a source for criticism. Helpful advice, constructive criticism or even the addition of specifics would I'm sure be very welcome, and appreciated by our more anxious SLF colleagues

Hampshire Hog

4th Oct 2006, 20:41

Thank you Tightslot.

For the record, I did ask right at the beginning of my contributions whether this was an appropriate thread to continue a discussion about fear of flying. No-one pointed me elsewhere.

I have never tried to place myself on a 'pedestal'. I am not a commercial pilot, but I have tried to learn as much as possible to get over my own fears. To the extent that I was scared sh*tless and, using a range of techniques, overcame that, I consider myself to have some expertese in fear of flying. I was asked to explain how I did that and it has branched into a set of posts covering what I know about how pilots work. I'd love to know more, but I'm too old and committed in my career to move to a new one now. There is no arrogance intended on my part - I just want to help people who were in a similar position to me.

I still can't help wondering why Pilots of the Caribbean did not address my quotation about the pneumatic operation of slats on the 747. However, I'll let it rest.

I really do genuinely welcome input from professionals here - it can only help.

I'm sorry if it upsets some.

HH

Chesty Morgan

4th Oct 2006, 21:54

HH, as far as I'm concerned your posts are well thought out and informative. They are without a doubt a great help to those nervous flyers amongst us, which I think is amply demonstrated by the replies you've been getting to your posts. I only wish that more people had an attitude like yours and were willing to put in the time and effort to help others. Which is afterall what this thread is about and not teaching a full type rating ground school.

I enjoy reading your work.

Chesty, a humble ATPL with over 16 years flying experience.

gorgeous spotter

4th Oct 2006, 22:02

Here here!!, I agree with you Chesty, the time and effort put in by Hampshire Hog is brilliant, and you can't get better than credentials like yours Chesty. I'm sure others reading will agree with you.:)

Middle Seat

4th Oct 2006, 22:28

I hate to steer this back to cabin announcements (or was it cockpit?), I forget.

Anyways, so as to minimize, the Economist ran its own version of a preflight announcement..

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=7884654

...now back to the more compelling diversionary topic.

Hampshire Hog

5th Oct 2006, 08:51

Thank you all for your support. My confidence is now slightly restored!

The aim is to provide a general guide - to help fearful flyers. It is, of course, not possible to cover every aircraft type and SOP - and I don't know all the details anyway. I will, however, try to steer my comments back towards overcoming the fear of flying more - placing my descriptions in context.

Middle Seat, great post. I didn't see the Economist feature when it was published, but it's a fun read. I have seen all sorts of comments on here about flight deck announcements. Someone said of BA pilots "These guys could have made you feel safe at 50' at night, over Berlin, during the Blitz". The other side to that coin is Billy Connolly's sketch about airline flight crews: 'They lie to you!'. I think a little of both reassurance and fact is needed. I think I might have said earlier, I was much reassured flying back from Scotland to LHR one stormy day when the Captain kept us informed about the next likely turbulent areas and where we were going. The regular flyers might have found it annoying, but I didn't hear any complaints around where I was sitting.

As a fearful flyer, I hate flights where the flight crew say absolutely nothing. What I hate even more is when something slightly unusual happens and they still don't say anything - even after the event has passed. That happened to a colleague of mine once after a go-around at LHR. Everything was fine and I explained to her how normal the procedure was, but the absence of any comment from the flight deck was what really spooked her. She didn't fly for ages after that - a lot of lost custom for the airlines, given that she is engaged to a guy in Dublin and lives in London.

HH

PilotsOfTheCaribbean

5th Oct 2006, 10:47

As a fearful flyer, I hate flights where the flight crew say absolutely nothing. What I hate even more is when something slightly unusual happens and they still don't say anything - even after the event has passed. That happened to a colleague of mine once after a go-around at LHR. Everything was fine and I explained to her how normal the procedure was, but the absence of any comment from the flight deck was what really spooked her. She didn't fly for ages after that - a lot of lost custom for the airlines, given that she is engaged to a guy in Dublin and lives in London.

HH

But the crew don't say "absolutely nothing", they are talking with air taffic control and doing what they should be doing, flying the airplane. Although a go around is a "normal" procedure, it is not an often practiced one. It is also an extremely busy time for the crew, who need to execute the manouever often in close proximity to other traffic. This can and often does entail the need for some complex manoevering and urgent communication with the controlling authority. Once the initial missed approach has been completed it is then a matter of priority to re-establish the flight back into an arrival sequence, bearing in mind that the world has also suddenly just got a lot busier for both the air traffiic control and the flight crew, who are now working on tighter reserves, and the need to reset the flightdeck and re-brief for another approach often within a tight time scale.

As I mentioned previously we do teach the need to remember there are passengers behind the door who should be kept informed and assured, both normally and in the event of an unusual event. However the need to fly the airplane and communicate with the ground takes a higher priority and always must ! There are some airports (Innsbruck springs to mind ) where the missed approach is extremely critical with regard to the close proximity of high terrain, and there is a need to fly a complex set of procedures for a considerable distance. The cabin crew are briefed that in the in the event of a missed approach it may be some considerable time before the passengers can be addressed from the flight deck. Even in less critical scenarios the airspace around major airports is normally busy and the crew will be busy aviating within that environment.

So as you can see, comment from the flight deck whilst desirable and hopefully achievable, is Not the first or second priority, and if time does not allow, it might (as you have already experienced) be omitted altogether. It really doesn't matter if a nervous passenger is a lost customer after such an event, the priority is the safety of all the passengers, all the time. "Commentaries" to the passengers however short or verbose is strictly as time allows and when such provision can be made.

The safety of our passengers , my crew and aircraft is the prime consideration that I have applied in the last 28 years of flying Boeing airliners from the 707 through to the latest generation glass cockpit machines. It is what I have taught as an instructor, and what I believe the vast majority if not all of my professional colleagues also practice.

Hampshire Hog

5th Oct 2006, 13:21

Thanks for that Pilots of the Caribbean.

I did, of course, explain that this would be a busy time for the crew and that the passengers - even nervous ones - might prefer them to be attending to the important task of flying safely. Personally, I would prefer them to be doing that too, but a reassuring message when they get a moment would be good.

I do understand the need to concentrate - even flying my baby aeroplane, I often tell pax there will be no conversation during critical phases of the flight.

I'm not convinced that there is an excuse for absolutely no message about such an event after landing or when taxying onto the stand - or even as passengers are leaving the plane. That was what happened to my colleague, no mention of what had happened at all. Just the usual - formalised - cabin crew announcements "Welcome to LHR ..." - no acknowledgement that anything out of the ordinary had happened. As you say, it is normal but not common.

However, if that really cannot be done, I'm happy to be understanding about it. I've never flown into Innsbruck, but I've stayed there near the airport. Wouldn't fancy a missed approach (or even a normal one ;) ) there myself.

To give an example, I was recently on a BA connect flight out of EDI to SOU - on an EMB 145. After pushback, the flight crew made several attempts at starting the engines, then announced there was a problem and that we were going back onto the stand to 're-boot' the aircraft systems. Fine. After the complete shutdown and re-start, they started the engines, we then pushed back, taxied and took off. There was no message from the flight deck to say everything was sorted. In fact, nothing from the flight deck at all, right up until we disembarked at SOU. Personally, whilst I know it could be assumed from the fact we departed, I would just have liked a brief message to say "everything now ok, we're going". It would have taken seconds. Instead, I was surrounded by people who looked slightly apprehensive to say the least and I too did not feel entirely comfortable - a feeling partially confirmed on arrival at SOU when an engineer jumped on before all pax had disembarked!

Safety and flying the aircraft is, of course, always the first priority. However, most flight crews doing the job every day don't realise that those little failures in communication with pax can put someone off flying for life. That can be a lot of lost revenue and, ultimately, contribute the financial failure of an airline and/or the loss of jobs.

It sounds like you have a lot of experience to offer. I hope you will continue to contribute to this thread.

HH

Globaliser

5th Oct 2006, 13:53

What I hate even more is when something slightly unusual happens and they still don't say anything - even after the event has passed. That happened to a colleague of mine once after a go-around at LHR.Yes, I think that the airlines could do well by having a think about how to communicate with the pax during a go-around. Obviously, the tech crew have much more pressing things to do, and may simply have no time to say anything to the pax until after the landing.

But I wonder whether it would help for there to be an SOP that the CSD (or senior cabin crew member) should make an announcement. Obviously, the CC won't know what has caused the particular go-around, and will have to be careful not to pre-empt the content of any announcement that the flight deck later makes. But there must be something reassuring that can be said; after all, 99% or whatever of go-arounds are just a normal procedure.

Pax Vobiscum

5th Oct 2006, 14:27

I've experienced two go-arounds (both on BA wide-bodies) and in both cases the flight-deck made a announcement soon afterwards. Onthe first occasion this went something like:

"Sorry about that folks, the flight in front was a little slow in clearing the runway, so we've decided to go round and try again."

Much appreciated - as was the annoucement from the cabin crew on the second occasion:

"Welcome to Glasgow, we'd like to assure passengers that there will be no extra charge for the go-around."

It broke the slight tension (it was the windiest landing I've ever experienced) nicely.

Jordan D

6th Oct 2006, 09:35

Two go-arounds - one with BA (744 ex-BOM, arr LHR) and one Easyjet two weeks ago (319, ex-LTN, arr EDI), two very different experiences.

On the BA, CSD gave a short announcement of the ilk above, stating how (as we were over the runway when we went around) the previous aircraft was slow to clear the runway and that the capt. had elected to complete another circuit to ensure that the passengers had the safest possible landing. Capt. came on when we were flying the circuit to rejoin the finals queue, explaining what had happened - most appreciated 3 months after 9/11.

Two weeks ago with Easyjet, CC noted that the pilot had elected not to continue with the approach and would be completing a circuit to land again. Unfortunately, that was it. Nothing more heard from either CC or Flight Deck, until the usual "Welcome to Edinburgh, please do not unfasten your seatbelts til we come to a complete stop."

I prefered the first experience to the second, but then, I'm interested in aviation and this really doesn't bother me.

Jordan

B757-200

24th Aug 2007, 20:10

Whilst i was flying from LHR to JFK when we were flying over Canada in massive turbulence no announcement was made at-all to reassure a few passengers who might of got a bit uncomfortable whilst it was all going on. This turbulence also lasted for a good 45 minutes!

PAXboy

24th Aug 2007, 23:33

B757-200 One factor that can strongly influence how much/many PAs there are is the time of day. If it was night time then, despite the turbulence, they might have felt that the pax that were still asleep would want to stay that way. Also, of course, each person has their own 'turbulence meter'.

Atishoo

25th Aug 2007, 10:45

I flew back from Malaga on Ezy 2 years ago. I really to this day dont have a clue what it was, as we had NO explanation whatsoever, which i think is highly un professional.

We were just cruising along nicely, no turbulence, suddenly the plane seem to drop, i mean stomach churning, ear popping drop, it went on for about 10 seconds, maybe a little less. The seat belt sign came on, the cc even looked startled.

Everything was fine again, but i thought and still do think its wrong when something liek that happens and you get no explanation at all, afterall im sure the Pilots felt the same feelings as us passengers did. But nothing, not a jot from the Crew.

Also had a really turbulent flight back from Crete on the very morning the Helios plane went down, (so passengers nervous before getting on the plane) it was all over the TV in the airport (nice). We were half way home, and the turbulence started, all the PA we heard was "cabin crew be seated please". Well as you can imagine to a nervous passenger (like me) that was just great!!

Then i had a guy behind me shouting to his friends "oh look at everyones faces, their all terrified" i wanted to punch him !! This went on for about 30 mins, by which time i had lost 3 stone in sweat! But again we had a fairly good landing and NOTHING, not a quick "sorry about that folks , just a bit of turbulance". I think its u professional when Pilots dont reassure passengers when there is a bit more than usual activity going on up there. I think its their job responsibility along with getting us there and back safely to just say a quick line. Not all the time, just if there is something that some would find more scarier than usual, and when the crew are told to sit down also.

Moan over
:)

AdamC

27th Aug 2007, 08:15

Whenever awake, I do listen to flight deck announcments but wouldn't be bothered if they wasn't made.

I appreciate announcments about weather ahead and i'm talking pretty violent turbulence, none of this light choppy stuff! - That can go without a mention and just stick the seatbelt sign on for all I care. :rolleyes: (Yes, I've experience severe turbulence so I do realise just how bad it gets!)

I don't mind the flight deck crew pointing out some points of intrest, solong as they are not stupid things that nobody has ever heared about! - On a particular FR flight the captain pointed out that we'd be passing over Wembley Stadium and as there was an event on we'd be able to see it clearly from the right hand side - that was nice of him to say and looked fantastic from the air! :) - However, if they was to point out that we'd be passing over the Mersey or Manchesters biggest power station then I'd be somewhat annoyed!

Long haul flights, if all is good and no problems pax need to be aware of then as far as im concerned they have a job to do and I want my sleep so lets all just stay quiet! - Thankfully, most do, however 99% of the pilots who've flown me across just point out New York City when your flying near once the other side of the pond - Which I don't mind, as to some people I guess it's nice to know your over some well known place - However to me it's just like saying "we're now flying over liverpool" :ugh:!

A brief announcment on decent is also appreciated, mainly for the ETA - Not for a life story which FR f/o's give you about what FL you've been cruising at and then how many meters thats been and how his "COMPUTA" is displaying 0503 for the arrival and how it might change because of traffic and wind.

Now moving onto cabin crew announcments, I don't appreciate them at all - However it's their job so I won't complain! - Especially when your trying to sell me some duty free which is 50% cheaper at my destination and coffee priced at £2.50!

All in all, breif informative announcments are appreciated by me from the front - Just not life stories!

But I wonder whether it would help for there to be an SOP that the CSD (or senior cabin crew member) should make an announcement. Obviously, the CC won't know what has caused the particular go-around, and will have to be careful not to pre-empt the content of any announcement that the flight deck later makes. But there must be something reassuring that can be said; after all, 99% or whatever of go-arounds are just a normal procedure.

I agree with that, a go-around is not something an adv. pax is going to know about and will proberbly get a little worried.

A simple but informative announcment would do the trick "Ladies and Gents the captain has decided to discontinue the approach into XX, we'd like to remind passengers that this is a normal proceedure and as soon as the captain has more information he/she will update you" - Something along the lines of that.