Ex SAA Captains at Nationwide

[Anti-Skid Inop]

The Manager of Operations (Ex SAA) at Nationwide, has recently submitted an advert on the SAAPA website for retired SAA captains to apply at Nationwide as Direct Entry Captains. They need not even be current on type.
This is exactly what the SA aviation industry does not need! Having been a SAAPA member himself, in his day, does he not feel any guilt for going against Nationwide's ALPA branch (NATPA). The AD was even placed on an ALPA branch's website - how sickening:yuk:
There are plenty F/O's at NTW who have the requirements for command on the 737's but are being overlooked ( That is untill management change them again to suit the DEC's from SAA again:= ). This in turn will create movement in the ranks and F/O employment can take place and in turn the SA industry starts to benefit. I'm all for direct entry Captains with their associated experience, but NOT when there are suitably qualified pilots within a company to be upgraded.This is how to break the morale of a pilot group, not knowing how/what the next step in their career will be. This is one of the many reasons why NTW has lost just over 30 pilots since OCT 2005 ( That's nearly 50% of the pilot body)!!! Surely alarm bells should start ringing:ugh:
I think it's time the rest of the aviation community knows what is going on at NTW, so that something can be done about it.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

And you thought ALPA was there to help you....:E

[napoleon]

Hey Anti skid off remember the old addage "If you can take a joke dont join" that goes for Nationwide for sure................good luck. :ugh:

[madherb]

I'm all for direct entry Captains with their associated experience, but NOT when there are suitably qualified pilots within a company to be upgraded.This is how to break the morale of a pilot group
Anti-skid - agreed - maybe the relevant retired SAA pilots should realise that there are issues here, which amount to extreme selfishness on their part. They have enjoyed the best of the flying world for many years, have a pension, travel perks, etc. Time to move on, make way for aspirant juniors, and share the joy. There is so little joy as it is for pale males.........:(:(

[reptile]

.... NTW has lost just over 30 pilots since OCT 2005 ( That's nearly 50% of the pilot body)!!! Surely alarm bells should start ringing.....

And that might be the reason why they are trying to employ some experienced captains. Sufficient depth of experience is crucial to keep operations safe.

[brabazon1]

If charity is what you want you are looking in the wrong place. Airlines will employ the best they can get at the lowest price and so they should.

[Shrike200]

And that might be the reason why they are trying to employ some experienced captains. Sufficient depth of experience is crucial to keep operations safe.

If Nationwide management can't work out why they've lost so many pilots, then they need to go back to an appropriate level of schooling - I'd recommend pre-school. Employing these guys is one factor contributing to the creation of the problem in the first place - why stay in a company where you have a very limited future? Getting paid the lowest salary in the entire local airline industry doesn't help either.

And of course, it also doesn't help that the ex-SAA Captains earn a MASSIVE pension (far, far more than anybodies actual salary at Nationwide I'm told), plus they get whatever Nationwide gives them - the bottom line is that they're just doing it for pocket money, and have no incentive to jump in and complain about the salaries. So, this means you've got some F/O's (and original Nationwide Captains) with no say in the matter (since the ex-SAA guys, along with the female VB are re-writing the rulebook), and now no bargaining power (since the VB's of the world can just suck up these money-rich ex-SAA guys, continue to pay them peanuts, and tell anybody who complains to F off), and who now get told they (the F/O's) won't be getting to a command position anytime in the next 3-4 years, where they would at least have had a chance to earn some actual money.

Talking about 'depth of experience' etc is rubbish, or at least only valid up to a point - what difference does it matter if somebody has been flying for the past 20 years on international routes on 744's, or been flying the last five on local routes on 732's. Sure, the ex-SAA guys have a broader experience, but the original Nationwide guys had absolutely no shortage of experience AT WHAT THEY WERE MEANT TO BE DOING, ie regional routes on 732's.

I'm sure 10000 hours on an FMC equipped B744 is nice, but they're still going to need the F/O's help to program the Litton/Garmin/obscure stuff that Nationwide has installed, putt-putting around with B732's using the good 'ol SP77 with no Alt-Capture/VNAV/LNAV etc.

[Anti-Skid Inop]

Reptile, I agree with you about the depth of experience and as I mentioned in my original post I don't have a problem with DEC's. It's just that there ARE pilots within Nationwide that have the experience required for an upgrade and they are being disadvantaged now!!

SRT, you misunderstood what I meant about ALPA. Contrary to what you say, ALPA has been extremely helpful to the NTW guy's hence the new branch being formed!!! All I meant was that being a ALPA member, surely you would support other members/branches. Clearly not at NTW though.

Brabazon - your post is just meaningless. Maybe you're just an Airline wh*&re but there are some pilot's with integrity out there!:D

[Shrike200]

If charity is what you want you are looking in the wrong place. Airlines will employ the best they can get at the lowest price and so they should.

So, considering a hypothetical scenario where you are a senior F/O at a company, about to get a command - just as you're ready, you get told "Sorry, we employed a retired Captain from another company." This happens again and again. Are you saying you just wouldn't complain at all? Not a word? You'd happily suck it down?

Consider further the financial situation that you're in - you're getting paid dirt - you need the money that goes with the upgrade to Captain. The retired Captain coming in in place of you is earning more than you'll ever earn just on his pension alone! You still wouldn't complain? I would be forced to call you a sucker then....

Nobodies looking for charity - and we're not talking about 'lowest price' because the prices are all the same. In fact, a permanent Nationwide Captain is preferable, since they're legally able to fly to Livingstone, and don't pick and choose the days they want to work, yet get paid the same.

We're just talking about people being able to work towards something that they were originally able to, and now cannot.

[SIC]

" Bad for morale " -- was there ever any???

[brabazon1]

Shrike, you are looking at it from the fo point of view.

From the company point they will employ a captain with the most experience possible.

As a passenger I would rather have an experinced captain up front rather than a fresh upgrade yet to prove his command ability.

I also believe the fo's want their command experience to go to better things so if the company upgrades an fo they have to train a new fo as well to replace him/her and can expect to see their fresh new captain leave in a few years while the ex-SAA captain is cheaper to train and is unlikely to leave.

[Romeo E.T.]

Light at the end of the tunnel, these "OLD" retirees will hopefully be worked so hard by VB that they will become trully unfit for further flight, loose their medical, promotions will be back on course, and these "old SAA'" captains will be so medically stuffed from being worked to the bone by VB that they will now have an expensive retirement, medical bills, Blood pressure Tabs etc and possibly regret having ever entertained robbing the industry's future captains of their well earned and deserved promotions.

[Shrike200]

Shrike, you are looking at it from the fo point of view.

Not entirely - if the company wants to retain F/O's to one day be Captains, they're going to have to look at it that way too. Thats *if* they want to retain F/O's I suppose....I assume they at least pay lip service to that idea...

From the company point they will employ a captain with the most experience possible.

By that you imply that if I approach SAA with appropriate experience (more than the next F/O who is about to be upgraded), I should get the Captains position he/she was about to be upgraded into? (Imagine I'd been flying at Easyjet on the -800 or something like that) Perhaps in some fantasy world, but certainly not in the real one. Or should it work differently at Nationwide, compared to ANY other regional airline? I echo Anti-Skid Inop's comments when I say that I have no problem with DEC, as long as there are no suitable candidates within the company. Of course, the SAA guys now own the training dept, and can rewrite the requirements for command at will to previously unheard of levels in Nationwide. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the current original Nationwide Captains suddenly don't even qualify for their own post anymore!

As a passenger I would rather have an experinced captain up front rather than a fresh upgrade yet to prove his command ability.

Sure, but: I think you're overrating 'command ability' as some kind of magical thing bestowed only upon people with 10000 hours. I rate somebody who's:

- Current and experienced on type (the B732, particularly those operated by Nationwide which are almost all different from one another)
- Current and experienced on the routes flown by the company
- 100% familiar with the company SOP's
- Familiar with the day to day operations of the company
- Displaying the required characteristics and good command potential (obviously very important)

quite highly.

I don't see why that guy should be ditched for somebody who last flew a B732 in the 1970's, is barely familiar with company SOP's (and quite possible has some ingrained habits quite different to those SOP's) and who has spent the last decade doing what is quite frankly a quite different kind of airline flying (long haul vs multi-sector domestic routes) on aircraft that are at least one, possibly two, generations more advanced in terms of automation (and thus workload reduction) I'm not saying one type of flying is 'better' than the other - it's just a question of familiarity. I could have 5000 hours on the SR71 doing photorecon over Russia - does that make me a better B732 pilot flying domestic routes in South Africa?

Make no mistake - I'm not knocking the SAA veterans, I'm sure they're great guys - they certainly have plenty of experience as well, which is great. But you seem to think that every single one of their hours contribute directly to some kind of inbuilt ability to operate aircraft he's not current on, on routes he might not be as familiar with as his 'competitor', namely the senior F/O (who is just a command course away from being a Captain)

I also believe the fo's want their command experience to go to better things so if the company upgrades an fo they have to train a new fo as well to replace him/her and can expect to see their fresh new captain leave in a few years while the ex-SAA captain is cheaper to train and is unlikely to leave.

Of course the F/O's want experience to go to better things if this is how they get treated at the company. The pathetic salary, now combined with this longer path to command (if it can even happen) which denies the chance for an earlier and much needed increase - wouldn't you leave too?

And you seem to be saying that 'once an F/O, always an F/O' as long as the company can find a never ending supply of Captains? (which is what SAA is, given that it has a fixed retirement age, whereas Nationwide doesn't) That would save the company from having to train *any* F/O's in the above mentioned fantasy world, sure. But in real life, that just won't work.

As an aside, since most, if not all the ex-SAA Captains were not current on type when joining Nationwide, they also required training. *Maybe* less than an upgrade, but it was still required. I doubt the difference in training costs is particularly high.

Again, this is nothing personal against the SAA Captains - but there can be absolutely no question that this situation is badly affecting the career path for many junior pilots in this country, both within Nationwide, and for those who previously would have been able to join to replace promoted F/O's.

[Anti-Skid Inop]

I agree entirely with Shrike. There is also no problem with waiting 3-4 years for a command in an airline if you are being fairly remunerated while doing so. Nationwide has always been known to pay less than the industry norm, but it was worth biting the bullet until you got your command and with that the SLIGHTLY better remuneration.

Now having to sit for 4 years and more at a ridiculuos salary is just not financially viable anymore - hence the max exodous to better paying jobs.

Lady Buxton and the likes need to realise that if they want to retain and build an "experienced base and long serving" pool of pilots they need to start looking after the SFO's now. There will not always be 'Retiree's' to call on to plug the holes of her sinking ship.

As I've mentioned before, there are still F/O's at NTW with the required experience for upgrades. The question is - For how long though? With no career path and DEC's blocking them, what alternative are they left with?

[Ketek400]

Thats why people have to go on to greener or sandier........... Not good for the guys sitting and waiting inline for airlines in SA. Ce used to be the step onto bigger better things and all who joined knew that. Unfortunately they changed the rules after some joined.

Also almost all of the regular permanent guys joined and signed bonds or paid for their training. So Ce know they have the bonded guys for at least 3-4 years where as the contract guys can leave any day without even paying for their recurency training or haveing signed any contract or bond?????

Not fair play I would say! Good luck to those Ce guys or maybe it is time to pack up and go.

[6-String]

For you guys that are directly affected by these older blokes coming in, calling the shots and taking the jobs; yes, it's downright depressing! I feel for you! Unfortunately, this is nothing new and it won't stop. The reality is that this is a cut-throat game and as you progress (and you will) you will learn that there are no free breakfasts in aviation. Backstabbing, bad-mouthing, brown-nosing, two-facing, lying, whoring and cheating are just a few of aviation's more common elements. Get over it. Get used to it.

If it is any consolation then know this: those ex-SAA guys would not be flying for Nationwide if they didn't need the cash. Believe me; VB (or whoever owns it these days would never have the pleasure of my CV). It means that they've clearly squandered the fruits of a government career. Most probably they pay alimony to more that one ex-wife, have mortgages up the Yin-Yang and get shivers up their spines each time the phone rings, lest it be the debt collectors, again!!! :}

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Almost makes the used car business look honest.:hmm:

[madherb]

If it is any consolation then know this: those ex-SAA guys would not be flying for Nationwide if they didn't need the cash. Believe me; VB (or whoever owns it these days would never have the pleasure of my CV). It means that they've clearly squandered the fruits of a government career. Most probably they pay alimony to more that one ex-wife, have mortgages up the Yin-Yang and get shivers up their spines each time the phone rings, lest it be the debt collectors, again!!! :}
I wonder how many are actually in that position of having to work to make ends meet? I bet one or two, at the most. The rest - probably don't have a life outside of the four gold bars. The thought of no longer being called "Captain" and becoming just another face in the crowd, another wife-harried home body..........hey, it must be tough. My heart bleeds. So they screw up the system for everyone. :yuk:

[skyvan]

Quite frankly, IMHO, one should not get one's knickers in a knot about the ex-SAA guys. I doubt if many will survive 6 months of LCC ops. For that matter, the SAA LCC will also see a fairly quick turnover of the senior Captains, they are just not ready for 4 legs a day, 5 days a week. As much as they have a huge amount of experience, they have 2 factors working against them staying too long

1. They are not used to the hard work, the cut-and-thrust of domestic flying, and,

2. They have spent their careers in an environment where the Captain had some authority, and could not be pushed into Discretion, or to push minimas a bit.

Just those 2 factors alone will see them getting pee'd off, and back on the golf course (or 19th hole) where they belong.

[Q4NVS]

Not so sure - If I read this thread correctly, they are coping at Nationwide.

Anyway, the 737-800 is definitely easier to fly than a clapped out old 732...

Exciting times ahead though if you ask me:
Min Jeff Radebe's inquest today said that all Air Carriers in/out of SA, who are not using atleast 80% of their allocated slots, will lose them to make space for other players in the market.

I.e: No more "blocking" of routes without the intention of using them :D

Back to the Nationwide situation, it is sad to say the least, but the wheels are already turning in SA Aviation (2 years till bleeding). :O

[brabazon1]

Thats why I preffer to fly with an old experinced captain and not the likes of you skyvan. They have learnt you do not push minimas.

[skyvan]

Thanks for that Brabazon1 :rolleyes:

and you are? (just want to know, since you have made a fairly serious allegation against me)

[brabazon1]

My point is that I believe an ex-SAA captain will not push minimas and that is not out of fear of Managment but respect for his proffesion.

[skyvan]

Brabazon1, very glad that you feel that ex-SAA captains won't push minimas.

Now, what about us current SAA captains?

[brabazon1]

Well skyvan,I think you answered that yourself.

In your message you suggested that if the older guys cant take the hard work and push minimas a bit they should be in the pub at the golf course. Seeing as you are not at the pub on the golf course you must be working hard and pushing minimas a bit. Is there something wrong with my logic or did I miss interpret your post.

[skyvan]

Briefly, Brabazon1, I don't do golf, or booze I do work hard, and I don't push minimas.:=
This is also not a pissing contest about SAA.:ugh: My comments are based on what I observe and am told about the current LCC ops (Comair excluded), and then deduce from those observations and stories.
I do not think that a 60+year old should be flying a hard roster. As a person ages, so their stamina reduces. So experience has to overcome both the situation, and tiredness. Therefore, IMHO, (another one of my opinions, just like my first post on this topic), they should not be doing the job.
LCC jobs should be for the "new" pilots, those prepared to work hard in return for the break. Those pilots who have already had a career behind them should allow that break to occur, and not be an impediment to the new blood.
That is all I shall say on this thread. :oh:
Brabazon1, if you wish to continue debating my opinions/ability/whatever, please feel free to use the private message button, I will be happy to respond.

[beechbum]

"to push minimas a bit."
Skyvan you surprise me........do you actually do this????
Now for a new can of worms........!!!!!!!!:eek:
Anyway I see you answered it for me. Ta!
"LCC jobs should be for the "new" pilots, those prepared to work hard in return for the break. Those pilots who have already had a career behind them should allow that break to occur, and not be an impediment to the new blood."
Agree with you wholeheartedly...pity others don't follow your lead!!!

[Anti-Skid Inop]

We're deviating from the thread a little here:ugh:

[Deskjocky]

If things are so bad for the CE FO’s why not strike? According to what’s been said it certainly will not be a career limiting move!!! Old Vern has this knack of avoiding industrial action- why is that?

If you are a FO at CE then your approach must be that you are there for jet time and that’s it- another step on the ladder that makes you more employable than the next guy -let market forces take care of the rest. The moment CE see that they are running a training academy instead of an airline then they will take notice because it affects their wallet.
Like it or not but SAA will have to begin recruitment in the future- then there is the new LCC that’s taken 47 pilots out of the market with at least that number identified for further recruitment. Some of the CE guys who applied could not meet the start date criteria and were therefore not considered for the first round- this will not be the case in the future when the timelines are not as tight and allowance can be built in for notice periods etc. There will, however, be a bias to crew with B737 experience for obvious reasons and the first few courses have been designed with this in mind. This approach would not have been taken of there was not a steady supply of good candidates available.

[beechbum]

Deskjocky,I can't see how SAA will ever recruit form the market place in the near future as you say.
Firstly with the -800's moving across to the LCC, there are going to be 47 or so surplus SAA pilots absorbed into the airline. Apparently this will sort out the current crew shortage that exists.
Secondly should more -800's move across to the LCC - which is anticipated, then there will in fact be no place for new recruits since SAA will have an overstock situ. Please correct me if I'm on the wrong track here.
As far as direct entry Captains into NTW is concerned - an unfair practice - as has been said before. Those guys who are in line for command will then seek greener pastures or ...sandier ones....for that matter. Said direct entry will hang around for a year or so.....then either chuck it in or move across to the LCC to join their other mates. So now you have a scenario where you have no suitable qualified SFO's to move up the ladder, as they've moved on to those greener and not so green pastures.So leaving a void.......
Do you think VB cares......not a damn....otherwise he wouldn't be doing this in the first place.
I hope the NTW guys sort this stuff out 'cos the industry doesn't need it!!!!:ok:

[Anti-Skid Inop]

Well said Beechbum. I think Lady Buxton is first of all pulling the wool over VB's eyes and secondly is not aware of the problem that is about to manifest itself at NTW regarding the loss of crew. I'm sure VB would have a coronary if he knew of half the goings on in FLT OPS at the moment.
There is definitely a lack of foresight in management at the moment. Some might view the intake of these DEC's as planning for the loss of crew, but in actual fact the problem is only being magnified and making itself worse.The more senior F/O's will now leave sooner as they realise they have absolutely no possible future career at NTW together with the DEC's leaving to be with colleagues at the LCC.
This is a viscious (sp ?) circle that could actually be stopped, or least curbed by management showing a little loyalty to the more senior F/O's (that meet the requirements and are capable) by giving them an opportunity for advancement. Not that this will be free/gratis - they will of course have to sign bonds (al la NTW style) which would keep them there that little bit longer!! Makes sense to me!!

[I.R.PIRATE]

Once more business comes first though?:confused:

[Deskjocky]

Beechbum, not so….. SAA will have to recruit for a number of reasons:
1- SAA's domestic schedule remains the same - even after the LCC launch, this situation will carry on for at least the next 3 years. I know there is all this talk of the LCC taking over the fleet but I can assure you that NO allowance has been made in the domestic business plan for this. Me thinks the LCC will get its 4 800's and then will have to fight for whatever it needs from there -the higher utilization the domestic fleet is now going to deliver will really improve the mainline bottom line so it will be a question of where will the asset generate the best return. I’m not for a moment insinuating that the LCC will not grow- I just think that there is a lot of money to be made in the mainline domestic operation that will be difficult to walk away form when the time comes, expect to see aircraft orders.
2- 2010 is around the corner, SAA has committed to government that it will increase capacity by the order of 50% on some routes- more planes=more pilots. Expect to see some aircraft orders
3- Lastly there is the natural attrition of the pilot body, people will retire in steady numbers- this is a fact. I also don’t see the extension past 60 issue lasting- its screws the younger pilots and I’m sure some time or another they will do something about it.

There seems to be this perception that SAA is looking to close up short haul operations- simply not true- things are going to work differently, all will be revealed later in the year.

[beechbum]

I know this is off track here but more aircraft......?????
SAA is R7.6 BILLION in debt........does that mean more of my hard earned money is going to fund a shiny new A320 or such like. It boggles my mind....but then this is SA anything is likely to happen. Oh yes forgot about 2010......another joke waiting to happen.
Apologies for my pessimism but the tunnel is very dark....ummm that brings me onto the Gautrain......ooopss I'm digressing!!!!
Anyway back to the NTW problem......stick by your guns fellas......!!!!
Anyway I hope you're right that SAA needs crew as there are quite a few Nigerian pilots and the like looking...........
On a SERIOUS NOTE I do follow your posts quite closely Deskjocky and unlike me you tend to make a bit of sense!!!!!...... You were right about this low cost thingy....and presto here we are. So for all those guys out there that are waiting in the wings for a crack at the airlines, I'm hoping that you are right. Then you haven't been that far wrong in the past.
Thanks for the info and we'll see what transpires.
Still doesn't solve the NTW dilemna........though

[Knoppiesdoorn]

AS Inop,

I can assure you VB knows whats going on. Thats his style! He firmly believes there will always be pilots looking for a job. And so far, history has proved him correct.
Sad, but there you are. He will not give up control.

[Foo-Fighter]

Seems like some of you have forgotten what it was like to (or better still, never had to) sit in a craphole for months at a time flying who knows what around in small aeries, through bad weather...just to get to the place you all are complaining about right now.

Maybe a little more time with an experienced captain is just what you guys need to come down to earth. I will pay hard currency to get to the position you are moaning about.

Did they tell you when you signed your employment contract when you'd be ready for command? In fact, did you sign your contract? Then, what are you moaning about? If its so bad, why not leave the nice domestic schedule your on that allows you to go home every night to your gorgeous wife/girlfriend and lets you live in the best country in the world, and come back to contracts and be a captain here on a 1900 et al.

Im also quite sure that some1 somewhere in every one of us' history made it very clear that you'll never get rich from flying.

VB ownes his airline and he'll run it as he pleases. If you dont like it, dont work for him... better yet...have the guts and go see him about it. Dont come blast the boss in an public forum. Thats just low class.

[Anti-Skid Inop]

Foo Fighter,
First of all, we all hope you get an airline job soon! But seeing as though you are against the upgrading of F/O's to Captains, it seems the F/O's will remain in the positions that you Yourself would like to occupy.
I don't think anyone has forgotten contract flying, it's just that if no-one does any thing in the airlines to make it more pleasant for pilots to fly in, you might be better off stayng on contract.
Maybe you'll understand someday when you are in the airlines. But that'll be quite some time from now seeing as though there's stagnation at the moment. Maybe you need to rethink your point of view.

[Shrike200]

Seems like some of you have forgotten what it was like to (or better still, never had to) sit in a craphole for months at a time flying who knows what around in small aeries, through bad weather...just to get to the place you all are complaining about right now.

Perhaps you forget that most people now days have had to do that - it's quite normal. Your'e not special. Many people at Nationwide have come from contract backgrounds.

Maybe a little more time with an experienced captain is just what you guys need to come down to earth. I will pay hard currency to get to the position you are moaning about.

Yes, an attitude that VB is all too happy to exploit, hence the pay-as-you-go history at Nationwide. You seem to be saying that Nwide F/O's are somehow arrogant for wishing for better conditions, and that flying with an ex-SAA Captain is going to somehow make this better? That makes no sense whatsoever..... (why would people who receive the absolute lowest salaries in the industry benefit from listening to the people who received the absolute pinnacle of available salaries in SA??)

Did they tell you when you signed your employment contract when you'd be ready for command?

An indication was actually given to some of those people that command would be coming relatively soon.

In fact, did you sign your contract? Then, what are you moaning about? If its so bad, why not leave the nice domestic schedule your on that allows you to go home every night to your gorgeous wife/girlfriend and lets you live in the best country in the world, and come back to contracts and be a captain here on a 1900 et al.

Your attitude seems to be that nobody at Nationwide should be asking for better conditions 'because doing contracts is worse'. So, by that logic, if your contract company started messing around with your salary, making silly management decisions etc, you wouldn't try and improve things 'because lots of junior instructors (or other lower time pilots starting out) would be happy with your job'? I don't see the problem with trying to make an effort to improve conditions to at least *close* to parity with other companies employees who do the same work. Why do you have a problem with that?

Im also quite sure that some1 somewhere in every one of us' history made it very clear that you'll never get rich from flying.

Really? Oh gosh darn it, there goes all my plans.....yes, OBVIOUSLY nobody is asking to be rich here - but being able to afford a house to live in, and a car to get to work in isn't being unreasonable, don't you think?

VB ownes his airline and he'll run it as he pleases. If you dont like it, dont work for him... better yet...have the guts and go see him about it. Dont come blast the boss in an public forum. Thats just low class.

Thanks for the advice. You obviously haven't realised it, but actually the employees at Nationwide ARE doing something within the company. This is merely a discussion of the situation. Nobody here expects another discussion on pprune to effect genuine change, just to debate and consider aspects of the situation, and maybe raise awareness amongst fellow pilots. I for one like to follow how conditions in the workplace are at companies I may want to work for one day. Perhaps you'd rather be ignorant of the situation, I'm not sure.

By the way, if you want to get into an airline, you might want to change your attitude. One day you'll be in the same boat, plus the current policies are actively preventing new pilots from making it into Nationwide - that means YOU.

[6-String]

Hey feller, don't get too uptight about the situation. And YES, I know, it is easier to say than to do. The fact is that these ex-SAA dropouts have been taking work from younger and more deserving pilots for years and it is not about to stop now. As long as there are people like VB blowing smoke up their @rses by making them feel that their experience is that keeps the airline going, and as long as they have alimony payments to make; those idiots will be delaying your command.

Years ago, when I was still building time at Impala Air and (the original) Inter Air Charter at Lanseria, there were a bunch of similarly minded ex-SAAF/ex-SAA individuals taking the bread out of our mouths. The wheel turns pal. Let me tell you that I know of at least three of those fellers who's expatriate lifestyles today, dictate the quality of their lives right down to their current miserable existance.

Head up, shoulders back, and beat them at their game.

[beechbum]

Foo - fighter, as they say.....every village has one...!!!
You've just shot your self rightly in the foot and as Shrike so correctly put it..how on earth do you expect to leave your arse end of the world flying your "little" aeries as you put it if the shananigans(sp?) at NTW continue? If there are no promotions within you ain't going to see anything but your little aerie for a very very long time.
This is not a discussion/debate with regards to experience levels....rather one of fairness to allow those that have paid there dues and gained the much needed expereice to gain that coveted left seat.
Have a think fighter boy because with your attitude maybe a little aerie going through the weather is probably the place where you need to stay.....!!!

By the way Shrike200 nicely put....'bout sums up everything!:ok:

[Ketek400]

Not to worry, the way these guys are flying at Nationwide will make them leave very soon! They work harder than ever before!!! And remember the festive season and wx is still on it'' way!!!

Good luck Ce guys the tide have to turn soon.

[Deskjocky]

Just seems so short sighted to take away a person’s hope of career advancement. Thing is as long as VB feels this sense of “gratitude” for a right hand seat he (and the female incarnation) will continue to ruin young pilots careers. The only positive to come out of all of this is a well qualified pool of First officers available for the other airlines to pick up when reqired.

[Foo-Fighter]

AS-INOP

My point of view as far as doing something about a stuation you dont like, in the REAL world by dealing face to face with REAL people, stands. But thanx for the sentiment anyway.

Shrike, you just proved you know how to use the quote button... congrats seems to be in order as none of your little rants seem to get close to the point i was trying to make.

Beech, i actually DO need more time doing what im doing, so your sarcasm falls on ears already open too. If i didnt need to be here, i can assure you i wouldnt have been. Dont call me boy, i'm prolly twice your age, son.


If pilots keep having this 'poor us' and 'the whole world owes us a favour because we're the sh1t' attitude in stead of getting up off our behinds (in front of the PC where we are no doubt bitching and complaining) and do the grown up thing and face management propperly... nobody is going to advance.

I didnt shoot myself in the foot. You did it for me. Your handing VB all the reasons he needs to, to keep you down man. Open your eyes...there's a world out there, and it doent ask you what set of rules you want to play by.

[Shrike200]

If pilots keep having this 'poor us' and 'the whole world owes us a favour because we're the sh1t' attitude in stead of getting up off our behinds (in front of the PC where we are no doubt bitching and complaining) and do the grown up thing and face management propperly... nobody is going to advance.
Where on earth did anyone say (or even remotely take on the attitude) that "we're the sh1t"? It's exactly because they *are* trying to do something that one day people like you will have a chance to advance.
Yes, I know how to quote, and it looks like I'll have to do it again.
Tell you what - I'll just requote what I said, and do it in bold, how about that?
You obviously haven't realised it, but actually the employees at Nationwide ARE doing something within the company. This is merely a discussion of the situation.
And some more from my post....
You seem to be saying that Nwide F/O's are somehow arrogant for wishing for better conditions, and that flying with an ex-SAA Captain is going to somehow make this better?
Both from my original post - it doesn't seem as if you read it, instead managing to call what I had to say 'little rants'. THE EMPLOYEES AT NATIONWIDE ARE ACTIVELY DOING SOMETHING WITHIN THE COMPANY - THIS IS A DISCUSSION OF THE SITUATION.
Shrike, you just proved you know how to use the quote button... congrats seems to be in order as none of your little rants seem to get close to the point i was trying to make.
Forgive me, but your point seemed (quite clearly) to be that 'airline pilots should remember that contract flying is unpleasant'. You then seem to continue on to say 'because of this, any attempt at seeking parity with other airlines by Nationwide employees is wrong.' Did I misunderstand you?

Edit: I'd just like to add that while the tone of my posts may seem aggressive, I'd prefer to think of them as 'aggressively pursuing the point, and not the person'. Opinions will no doubt vary though.

[beechbum]

Hey foo- old boy-.ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha!!!!
I consulted the Pprune dictionary for prolly.....
Prolly: Ummm....could mean "probably"........Foo - man has had too many grogs!
Stuation: Umm difficult one.....Foo mans - friend... Stu...(maybe).....in a strange situation.....prolly too many grogs too.
Doent - Uh..ah...bit lost here. Foo man has fallen off his chair....one too many grogs now.......!!!!

Anyway as a group of pilot's I would think we would all stick together - and the majority of us do.It's a pity certain attitudes need to get in the way. So Foo old man continue where you are.... and we'll continue to bitch and complain like you say we do.........:ok:
Now must get back to my spelling lessons.:D
Nice day... ya all:ok:

[FMC forever]

I believe the guys flying for NW have a very tough time....strange going from contract work to an airline to have a proper life...just to realise, no-one in management cares about their crew.

1. Firstly ex-saa captains flying left hand seat prevents senior FO getting command.
2. Sad but true.....salaries are not up to par.
3. Crew have to pay own accommodation and claim back afterwards.....VB :mad: really has a nerve. If you fly for an airline, its their responsability to ARRANGE AND PAY for accommodation....:cool:
4. Rostering perfect???????????? :confused: I am told the roster changes on an almost daily basis......whats the use of a roster....

NW fellows - go for other airlines eg. Comair and low-cost. Your future is in your own hands. :ok:

[Deskjocky]

Makes me kind of think that next time old VB wants to take a stab at old spoorie air at the competitions tribunal- a case could be made for him pricing below industry break even on the basis that he is taking advantage of the depressed labour market in aviation and exploiting his employees thereby gaining a cost advantage over the other carriers:*