Ex SAA Captains at Nationwide

[Anti-Skid Inop]

The Manager of Operations (Ex SAA) at Nationwide, has recently submitted an advert on the SAAPA website for retired SAA captains to apply at Nationwide as Direct Entry Captains. They need not even be current on type.
This is exactly what the SA aviation industry does not need! Having been a SAAPA member himself, in his day, does he not feel any guilt for going against Nationwide's ALPA branch (NATPA). The AD was even placed on an ALPA branch's website - how sickening
There are plenty F/O's at NTW who have the requirements for command on the 737's but are being overlooked ( That is untill management change them again to suit the DEC's from SAA again ). This in turn will create movement in the ranks and F/O employment can take place and in turn the SA industry starts to benefit. I'm all for direct entry Captains with their associated experience, but NOT when there are suitably qualified pilots within a company to be upgraded.This is how to break the morale of a pilot group, not knowing how/what the next step in their career will be. This is one of the many reasons why NTW has lost just over 30 pilots since OCT 2005 ( That's nearly 50% of the pilot body)!!! Surely alarm bells should start ringing
I think it's time the rest of the aviation community knows what is going on at NTW, so that something can be done about it.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

And you thought ALPA was there to help you....

[napoleon]

Hey Anti skid off remember the old addage "If you can take a joke dont join" that goes for Nationwide for sure................good luck.

[madherb]

Originally Posted by Anti-Skid Inop

I'm all for direct entry Captains with their associated experience, but NOT when there are suitably qualified pilots within a company to be upgraded.This is how to break the morale of a pilot group

Anti-skid - agreed - maybe the relevant retired SAA pilots should realise that there are issues here, which amount to extreme selfishness on their part. They have enjoyed the best of the flying world for many years, have a pension, travel perks, etc. Time to move on, make way for aspirant juniors, and share the joy. There is so little joy as it is for pale males.........

[reptile]

Originally Posted by Anti-Skid Inop

.... NTW has lost just over 30 pilots since OCT 2005 ( That's nearly 50% of the pilot body)!!! Surely alarm bells should start ringing.....

And that might be the reason why they are trying to employ some experienced captains. Sufficient depth of experience is crucial to keep operations safe.

[brabazon1]

no charity

If charity is what you want you are looking in the wrong place. Airlines will employ the best they can get at the lowest price and so they should.

[Shrike200]

Originally Posted by reptile

And that might be the reason why they are trying to employ some experienced captains. Sufficient depth of experience is crucial to keep operations safe.

If Nationwide management can't work out why they've lost so many pilots, then they need to go back to an appropriate level of schooling - I'd recommend pre-school. Employing these guys is one factor contributing to the creation of the problem in the first place - why stay in a company where you have a very limited future? Getting paid the lowest salary in the entire local airline industry doesn't help either.

And of course, it also doesn't help that the ex-SAA Captains earn a MASSIVE pension (far, far more than anybodies actual salary at Nationwide I'm told), plus they get whatever Nationwide gives them - the bottom line is that they're just doing it for pocket money, and have no incentive to jump in and complain about the salaries. So, this means you've got some F/O's (and original Nationwide Captains) with no say in the matter (since the ex-SAA guys, along with the female VB are re-writing the rulebook), and now no bargaining power (since the VB's of the world can just suck up these money-rich ex-SAA guys, continue to pay them peanuts, and tell anybody who complains to F off), and who now get told they (the F/O's) won't be getting to a command position anytime in the next 3-4 years, where they would at least have had a chance to earn some actual money.

Talking about 'depth of experience' etc is rubbish, or at least only valid up to a point - what difference does it matter if somebody has been flying for the past 20 years on international routes on 744's, or been flying the last five on local routes on 732's. Sure, the ex-SAA guys have a broader experience, but the original Nationwide guys had absolutely no shortage of experience AT WHAT THEY WERE MEANT TO BE DOING, ie regional routes on 732's.

I'm sure 10000 hours on an FMC equipped B744 is nice, but they're still going to need the F/O's help to program the Litton/Garmin/obscure stuff that Nationwide has installed, putt-putting around with B732's using the good 'ol SP77 with no Alt-Capture/VNAV/LNAV etc.

[Anti-Skid Inop]

Reptile, I agree with you about the depth of experience and as I mentioned in my original post I don't have a problem with DEC's. It's just that there ARE pilots within Nationwide that have the experience required for an upgrade and they are being disadvantaged now!!

SRT, you misunderstood what I meant about ALPA. Contrary to what you say, ALPA has been extremely helpful to the NTW guy's hence the new branch being formed!!! All I meant was that being a ALPA member, surely you would support other members/branches. Clearly not at NTW though.

Brabazon - your post is just meaningless. Maybe you're just an Airline wh*&re but there are some pilot's with integrity out there!

[Shrike200]

Originally Posted by brabazon1

If charity is what you want you are looking in the wrong place. Airlines will employ the best they can get at the lowest price and so they should.

So, considering a hypothetical scenario where you are a senior F/O at a company, about to get a command - just as you're ready, you get told "Sorry, we employed a retired Captain from another company." This happens again and again. Are you saying you just wouldn't complain at all? Not a word? You'd happily suck it down?

Consider further the financial situation that you're in - you're getting paid dirt - you need the money that goes with the upgrade to Captain. The retired Captain coming in in place of you is earning more than you'll ever earn just on his pension alone! You still wouldn't complain? I would be forced to call you a sucker then....

Nobodies looking for charity - and we're not talking about 'lowest price' because the prices are all the same. In fact, a permanent Nationwide Captain is preferable, since they're legally able to fly to Livingstone, and don't pick and choose the days they want to work, yet get paid the same.

We're just talking about people being able to work towards something that they were originally able to, and now cannot.

[SIC]

" Bad for morale " -- was there ever any???

[brabazon1]

charity

Shrike, you are looking at it from the fo point of view.

From the company point they will employ a captain with the most experience possible.

As a passenger I would rather have an experinced captain up front rather than a fresh upgrade yet to prove his command ability.

I also believe the fo's want their command experience to go to better things so if the company upgrades an fo they have to train a new fo as well to replace him/her and can expect to see their fresh new captain leave in a few years while the ex-SAA captain is cheaper to train and is unlikely to leave.

[Romeo E.T.]

Light at the end of the tunnel, these "OLD" retirees will hopefully be worked so hard by VB that they will become trully unfit for further flight, loose their medical, promotions will be back on course, and these "old SAA'" captains will be so medically stuffed from being worked to the bone by VB that they will now have an expensive retirement, medical bills, Blood pressure Tabs etc and possibly regret having ever entertained robbing the industry's future captains of their well earned and deserved promotions.

[Shrike200]

Originally Posted by brabazon1

Shrike, you are looking at it from the fo point of view.

Not entirely - if the company wants to retain F/O's to one day be Captains, they're going to have to look at it that way too. Thats *if* they want to retain F/O's I suppose....I assume they at least pay lip service to that idea...

Originally Posted by brabazon1

From the company point they will employ a captain with the most experience possible.

By that you imply that if I approach SAA with appropriate experience (more than the next F/O who is about to be upgraded), I should get the Captains position he/she was about to be upgraded into? (Imagine I'd been flying at Easyjet on the -800 or something like that) Perhaps in some fantasy world, but certainly not in the real one. Or should it work differently at Nationwide, compared to ANY other regional airline? I echo Anti-Skid Inop's comments when I say that I have no problem with DEC, as long as there are no suitable candidates within the company. Of course, the SAA guys now own the training dept, and can rewrite the requirements for command at will to previously unheard of levels in Nationwide. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the current original Nationwide Captains suddenly don't even qualify for their own post anymore!

Originally Posted by brabazon1

As a passenger I would rather have an experinced captain up front rather than a fresh upgrade yet to prove his command ability.

Sure, but: I think you're overrating 'command ability' as some kind of magical thing bestowed only upon people with 10000 hours. I rate somebody who's:

- Current and experienced on type (the B732, particularly those operated by Nationwide which are almost all different from one another)
- Current and experienced on the routes flown by the company
- 100% familiar with the company SOP's
- Familiar with the day to day operations of the company
- Displaying the required characteristics and good command potential (obviously very important)

quite highly.

I don't see why that guy should be ditched for somebody who last flew a B732 in the 1970's, is barely familiar with company SOP's (and quite possible has some ingrained habits quite different to those SOP's) and who has spent the last decade doing what is quite frankly a quite different kind of airline flying (long haul vs multi-sector domestic routes) on aircraft that are at least one, possibly two, generations more advanced in terms of automation (and thus workload reduction) I'm not saying one type of flying is 'better' than the other - it's just a question of familiarity. I could have 5000 hours on the SR71 doing photorecon over Russia - does that make me a better B732 pilot flying domestic routes in South Africa?

Make no mistake - I'm not knocking the SAA veterans, I'm sure they're great guys - they certainly have plenty of experience as well, which is great. But you seem to think that every single one of their hours contribute directly to some kind of inbuilt ability to operate aircraft he's not current on, on routes he might not be as familiar with as his 'competitor', namely the senior F/O (who is just a command course away from being a Captain)

Originally Posted by brabazon1

I also believe the fo's want their command experience to go to better things so if the company upgrades an fo they have to train a new fo as well to replace him/her and can expect to see their fresh new captain leave in a few years while the ex-SAA captain is cheaper to train and is unlikely to leave.

Of course the F/O's want experience to go to better things if this is how they get treated at the company. The pathetic salary, now combined with this longer path to command (if it can even happen) which denies the chance for an earlier and much needed increase - wouldn't you leave too?

And you seem to be saying that 'once an F/O, always an F/O' as long as the company can find a never ending supply of Captains? (which is what SAA is, given that it has a fixed retirement age, whereas Nationwide doesn't) That would save the company from having to train *any* F/O's in the above mentioned fantasy world, sure. But in real life, that just won't work.

As an aside, since most, if not all the ex-SAA Captains were not current on type when joining Nationwide, they also required training. *Maybe* less than an upgrade, but it was still required. I doubt the difference in training costs is particularly high.

Again, this is nothing personal against the SAA Captains - but there can be absolutely no question that this situation is badly affecting the career path for many junior pilots in this country, both within Nationwide, and for those who previously would have been able to join to replace promoted F/O's.

[Anti-Skid Inop]

I agree entirely with Shrike. There is also no problem with waiting 3-4 years for a command in an airline if you are being fairly remunerated while doing so. Nationwide has always been known to pay less than the industry norm, but it was worth biting the bullet until you got your command and with that the SLIGHTLY better remuneration.

Now having to sit for 4 years and more at a ridiculuos salary is just not financially viable anymore - hence the max exodous to better paying jobs.

Lady Buxton and the likes need to realise that if they want to retain and build an "experienced base and long serving" pool of pilots they need to start looking after the SFO's now. There will not always be 'Retiree's' to call on to plug the holes of her sinking ship.

As I've mentioned before, there are still F/O's at NTW with the required experience for upgrades. The question is - For how long though? With no career path and DEC's blocking them, what alternative are they left with?

[Ketek400]

Thats why people have to go on to greener or sandier........... Not good for the guys sitting and waiting inline for airlines in SA. Ce used to be the step onto bigger better things and all who joined knew that. Unfortunately they changed the rules after some joined.

Also almost all of the regular permanent guys joined and signed bonds or paid for their training. So Ce know they have the bonded guys for at least 3-4 years where as the contract guys can leave any day without even paying for their recurency training or haveing signed any contract or bond?????

Not fair play I would say! Good luck to those Ce guys or maybe it is time to pack up and go.

[6-String]

For you guys that are directly affected by these older blokes coming in, calling the shots and taking the jobs; yes, it's downright depressing! I feel for you! Unfortunately, this is nothing new and it won't stop. The reality is that this is a cut-throat game and as you progress (and you will) you will learn that there are no free breakfasts in aviation. Backstabbing, bad-mouthing, brown-nosing, two-facing, lying, whoring and cheating are just a few of aviation's more common elements. Get over it. Get used to it.

If it is any consolation then know this: those ex-SAA guys would not be flying for Nationwide if they didn't need the cash. Believe me; VB (or whoever owns it these days would never have the pleasure of my CV). It means that they've clearly squandered the fruits of a government career. Most probably they pay alimony to more that one ex-wife, have mortgages up the Yin-Yang and get shivers up their spines each time the phone rings, lest it be the debt collectors, again!!!

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Almost makes the used car business look honest.

[madherb]

Originally Posted by 6-String

If it is any consolation then know this: those ex-SAA guys would not be flying for Nationwide if they didn't need the cash. Believe me; VB (or whoever owns it these days would never have the pleasure of my CV). It means that they've clearly squandered the fruits of a government career. Most probably they pay alimony to more that one ex-wife, have mortgages up the Yin-Yang and get shivers up their spines each time the phone rings, lest it be the debt collectors, again!!!

I wonder how many are actually in that position of having to work to make ends meet? I bet one or two, at the most. The rest - probably don't have a life outside of the four gold bars. The thought of no longer being called "Captain" and becoming just another face in the crowd, another wife-harried home body..........hey, it must be tough. My heart bleeds. So they screw up the system for everyone.

[skyvan]

Quite frankly, IMHO, one should not get one's knickers in a knot about the ex-SAA guys. I doubt if many will survive 6 months of LCC ops. For that matter, the SAA LCC will also see a fairly quick turnover of the senior Captains, they are just not ready for 4 legs a day, 5 days a week. As much as they have a huge amount of experience, they have 2 factors working against them staying too long

1. They are not used to the hard work, the cut-and-thrust of domestic flying, and,

2. They have spent their careers in an environment where the Captain had some authority, and could not be pushed into Discretion, or to push minimas a bit.

Just those 2 factors alone will see them getting pee'd off, and back on the golf course (or 19th hole) where they belong.

[Q4NVS]

Not so sure - If I read this thread correctly, they are coping at Nationwide.

Anyway, the 737-800 is definitely easier to fly than a clapped out old 732...

Exciting times ahead though if you ask me:
Min Jeff Radebe's inquest today said that all Air Carriers in/out of SA, who are not using atleast 80% of their allocated slots, will lose them to make space for other players in the market.

I.e: No more "blocking" of routes without the intention of using them

Back to the Nationwide situation, it is sad to say the least, but the wheels are already turning in SA Aviation (2 years till bleeding).