FAA instuction in UK

[malc4d]

Is anyone doing any FAA flight training (NOT flight reviews) in the UK anymore ? If so how do they get around the latest rules set by the yanks.
Am l the only one to have read the AOPA or TSA web pages on flighttraining for aliens ( thats us ) . . . .

[porridge]

Yes - I am, amongst others. You don't get around the rules you just follow them - so no problem. You can do the writtens at Farnborough and you can still get examiners to come to the UK to do checkrides - but it is a bit irregular in frequency and takes a bit of organising. The secret is make sure you are compliant with all UK as well as FAA requirements.
Also be very careful of the the dodgy operators out to relieve people of their money and run away with it! Check bona fides once, twice and even thrice!

[malc4d]

So how are you following the rules as set out in 49 cfr part 1552 ?
Do you get your students to apply at the TSA website and file their photos and fingerprints as required, or are you not following " the rules". :=
As l read it all non-US citizen students, no matter which country they train in MUST apply to the TSA. And all CFI's must register them as well if training "aliens" ie us. . . .:hmm:
So are you and your students doing all this. If not, how do the DPEs get this passed the FAA/TSA ?
Sorry l'm not trying to be funny but if your are following the rules it seems to me to be nearly inpossable to train for a FAA rating anywhere leagaly.
Have you, or any other CFI here, got your FSSA certification etc......:ugh:
www.aopa.org/tsa_rule/ or http://www.tsa.gov/assets/pdf/recurr...ool_module.pdf

[malc4d]

a small sample of AOPAs Q & A :-

Are flight schools and flight instructors located outside the United States affected by this rule?
Yes. The rule applies to any flight school or flight instructor certificated under 14 CFR that provides instruction in the operation of any aircraft or aircraft simulator toward the issuance of a U.S. airman certificate. This includes any flight school or instructor located outside the United States that provides such instruction.

I am an active flight instructor and an alien. Am I required to do anything different than instructors who are U.S. citizens?
No, nothing special is required. The requirements of the rule for flight schools and flight instructors still apply to you. This requires registering with TSA if you are giving flight instruction to other aliens, verifying citizenship for U.S. citizens, and completing initial and recurrent TSA security awareness training.

How do flight training providers outside the United States verify their registration with TSA?
For providers outside the United States, you will need to validate with an international FSDO office (IFO). There are IFOs in New York, New York; San Francisco, California; and Miami, Florida. Please contact the nearest IFO to you and inquire whether that office can process your request for a provider account on AFSP. If you use the New York IFO, please select the New York IFO (EA29) as your FSDO option and "New York" for your state location. If you use the San Francisco IFO, please select the San Francisco IFO (WP03) as your FSDO option and "California" for your state location. If you use the Miami IFO, please select the Miami IFO (SO23) as your FSDO option and "Florida" for your state location. Once the IFO validates your request, you will be sent a password via e-mail.

How do I upload and submit a candidate photograph?
Candidate photographs must be taken when a candidate arrives for the first day of flight training. The provider, through the "Photograph Upload" link, should upload these photographs through the AFSP Web site. The following TSA guidelines for taking photographs are provided on the photograph upload page within the AFSP Web site.

TSA guidelines for flight candidate photographs:

Proper Lighting Arrangement — Position light sources on both sides of the subject to avoid shadows on face. Use a light source to illuminate the background behind the subject to avoid shadows in background. Diffuse sources of light, such as umbrella lights, are preferable to point sources.
Camera/Subject Position — Place the camera approximately 4 feet from the subject. Position the camera at the subject's eye level. Position the subject so that he faces the camera. Photograph the subject against a plain white or off-white background and center the subject's head within the frame.
Photograph Print Properties — Produce a 2 inch x 2 inch color or black and white photo on thin paper or stock. Ensure the print is clear and has a continuous tone quality. Do not retouch or otherwise enhance or soften the photo.
Resolution Quality — High-resolution photography and printing are highly recommended. The entire face and all fine facial features should be in focus.
For uploading photographs, TSA accepts the following file extensions: BMP, DOC, GIF, HTML, JPEG, JPG, PDF, and TIF. In addition, the file name may only contain English characters.

[porridge]

Malc4d
In brief answer to your questions:
1. I have recently TSA'd two of my students (in the last 4 weeks)
2. I am registed as a training provider with the NY FDSO
3. My students have been fingerprinted at Flight Safety at Farnborough
4. I have had "permission to commence training" for my two students from the TSA
5. I have done the photo's
6. My one student has got UK Dept of Transport permission for training on his N-reg aircraft
7. I have a valid FAA CFII/MEI as well as full JAA CPL/IR with instructors ratings
8. All training before TSA registration has been done in accordance with being "an ICAO certified FI", I only need to do the TSA part to conform with the 3 hours in 60 days prior to taking the test.
Hope this helps in response to your original post?

[malc4d]

Thanks for reply.
I was asked to give some instruction to a friend.
After telling another about it the whole problem with the TSA thing opened up.
So is it as hard and time wasting to do as it looks, or just made to look hard ? (ie. is it worth it unless you want to do it fulltime)
Malc

[IO540]

There are two separate issues with training towards some FAA thingy in the UK.

One is meeting the training requirements i.e. the stuff in the logbook. This can be done in a G-reg, or any reg, by any ICAO instructor. This flight training doesn't have to be anything to do with the FAA! The FAA will accept the stuff in the logbook. Quite bizzare of course, because if you stand up and say you are training towards some FAA rating then you have to do the TSA stuff, but if you just go up in a plane for no apparent objective, but there is an instructor with you and you just happen to meet the FAA training requirements (say a 250nm x/c airways flight, for the FAA IR) then TSA doesn't come into it. You may as well call it "recurrent training"; once it is in the logbook and is signed and detailed so it is clearly authentic, it will count towards the FAA requirement(s). The last 3hrs in the 60days before the checkride can probably be done this way too; the key is that you have to be signed off by an FAA instructor as ready for the checkride; there is no requirement AFAIK that that particular instructor had to fly with you at all (although in practice obviously he will want to).

The other is the checkride. There is a problem with examiners coming over, DfT permission requirement etc etc and people normally just go off to the USA for this. And one would do the last 3hrs (or whatever is needed) out there. There have been some recent developments (Elstree I gather) on examiners coming over but I am not up to date on this. They have always been "available" at cost plus all expenses; OK for a checkride in a Citation for example but works out very expensive for one candidate, especially if the weather is bad when he is over here...

[malc4d]

Hmmm not so sure about that. As soon as l, holder of a FAA cfi, sign the log book, isnt that training ? If l then put you up for a check ride, training ! Anything other than flight reviews, endorsements or ipc is for a rateing so hello far 1552. :uhoh:

[IO540]

Hmmm not so sure about that. As soon as l, holder of a FAA cfi, sign the log book, isnt that training

Not if you are a JAA FI in a G-reg. The training is still just as applicable.

Also if you are both an FAA CFI/CFII and a JAA FI then you can always say the training was under JAA. Especially if in a G-reg; having a dual FAA+JAA instructor rating would be practically worthless otherwise.

Also some training is not subject to TSA. Ref: http://www.aopa.org/tsa_rule/index. This link shows that below 12500lb these requirements apply only to flight training for a recreational pilot (applicable to US only), sport pilot (applicable to US only), private pilot (FAA PPL), instrument rating (FAA IR), or multiengine rating. A BFR, for example, is exempt. Curiously, an existing PPL holder training for a CPL may also be exempt. The moment any training is exempt, it becomes pretty well impossible to label a particular flight as requiring TSA.

There is also the pre - October 2004 exemption for TSA. So a suitable FAA training logbook entry before that date removes the need for TSA. Ref: http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/pdf90/300642_web.pdf

Other than the above exemptions, the checkride itself certainly is subject to TSA. However I don't think one has to go through the full TSA process (fingerprints, approved school, etc) if doing it in the UK because (for example) the training establishment is not going to appear on the TSA website pulldown menus.

My own experience, in a school in the USA which was very fussy about the paperwork, is that the TSA compliance of any foreign FAA instruction is not questioned.

[malc4d]

Oh well. as porridge said, go by the rules. so just registered with the TSA. . . . .:ok:

[porridge]

Malc4d
Just a quick Caveat on this, if you don't hold at least a JAA CPL you cannot get paid for the instruction, if you want get paid you need to go outside the UK FIR otherwise it is construed as aerial work and you can get prosecuted for this. Also you cannot instruct with a FAA only IR in controlled airspace which makes it difficult to do the IR x/country. Don’t take the attitude that “he’s a mate we’ll do this 'sub rosa'" – these arrangements have a habit of going pear-shaped as Dennis Kenyon will tell you and you could find yourself in court and being seriously out of pocket.
Stick to the rules and procedures and you’ll not get hurt.
Porridge

[IO540]

Just a quick Caveat on this, if you don't hold at least a JAA CPL you cannot get paid for the instruction, if you want get paid you need to go outside the UK FIR otherwise it is construed as aerial work and you can get prosecuted for this. Also you cannot instruct with a FAA only IR in controlled airspace which makes it difficult to do the IR x/country. Don’t take the attitude that “he’s a mate we’ll do this 'sub rosa'" – these arrangements have a habit of going pear-shaped as Dennis Kenyon will tell you and you could find yourself in court and being seriously out of pocket.

One needs to be an FAA CFII to instruct for the IR.

DK got done because (according to info fairly widely posted) he fell out with his student, the student shopped him to the CAA, and then DK admitted the alleged offence. I am not condoning illegal acts but this combination of circumstances is very rare. Payment for ground school is perfectly legitimate and it would be astonishing if ground school was not provided, at any level of training.

I was wrong on the stuff I wrote about the TSA website carrying only flying schools. It turns out that individual FAA instructors, based anywhere, can (and apparently are supposed to) register with the TSA.

However, the practical situation is that nobody checks whether some logbook entry from ages ago was done in a TSA compliant situation. Also any flight which can be claimed to be towards an FAA CPL (which is definitely TSA exempt) should be safe because anybody (especially somebody holding an FAA PPL already) is entitled to be training towards the FAA CPL.

[malc4d]

TSA Clarification of "Flight Training"
TSA has provided clarification on the definition of "flight training" for aircraft with an MTOW of 12,500 pounds or less; it now only includes flight training for a recreational pilot, sport pilot, or private pilot certificate; multiengine rating (at any level); or instrument rating.

TSA Defines "Recurrent Training"
TSA interprets the definition of "recurrent training" to NOT include any flight review, proficiency check, or other check whose purpose is to review rules, maneuvers, or procedures or to demonstrate a pilot's existing skills.

Flight Training. The TSA rule initially defined "flight training" as instruction received from a flight school in an aircraft or aircraft simulator that a candidate could use toward a new airman certificate or type rating. On January 5, 2005, TSA clarified the definition to include only three types of training that substantially enhance piloting skills. The first is training that a candidate could use toward a recreational, sport, or private pilot certificate because such training provides a candidate with basic piloting skills. The second is training that a candidate could use toward a multiengine rating because such training provides a pilot access to larger, faster aircraft. The third is training that a candidate could use toward an instrument rating because such training enhances a pilot's abilities to pilot an aircraft in bad weather and enables a pilot to better understand the instruments and physiological experiences of flying without reference to visual cues outside the aircraft. Recurrent training, such as flight reviews and instrument proficiency checks, are exempt from the rule, as well as flight training listed under 14 CFR 61.31.

14 CFR 61.31.)

Type ratings required. A person who acts as a pilot in command of any of the following aircraft must hold a type rating for that aircraft:

(1) Large aircraft (except lighter-than-air).

(2) Turbojet-powered airplanes.

(3) Other aircraft specified by the Administrator through aircraft type certificate procedures.

(b) Authorization in lieu of a type rating. A person may be authorized to operate without a type rating for up to 60 days an aircraft requiring a type rating, provided—

(1) The Administrator has authorized the flight or series of flights;

(2) The Administrator has determined that an equivalent level of safety can be achieved through the operating limitations on the authorization;

(3) The person shows that compliance with paragraph (a) of this section is impracticable for the flight or series of flights; and

(4) The flight—

(i) Involves only a ferry flight, training flight, test flight, or practical test for a pilot certificate or rating;

(ii) Is within the United States;

(iii) Does not involve operations for compensation or hire unless the compensation or hire involves payment for the use of the aircraft for training or taking a practical test; and

(iv) Involves only the carriage of flight crewmembers considered essential for the flight.

(5) If the flight or series of flights cannot be accomplished within the time limit of the authorization, the Administrator may authorize an additional period of up to 60 days to accomplish the flight or series of flights.

(c) Aircraft category, class, and type ratings: Limitations on the carriage of persons, or operating for compensation or hire. Unless a person holds a category, class, and type rating (if a class and type rating is required) that applies to the aircraft, that person may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft that is carrying another person, or is operated for compensation or hire. That person also may not act as pilot in command of that aircraft for compensation or hire.

(d) Aircraft category, class, and type ratings: Limitations on operating an aircraft as the pilot in command. To serve as the pilot in command of an aircraft, a person must—

(1) Hold the appropriate category, class, and type rating (if a class rating and type rating are required) for the aircraft to be flown;

(2) Be receiving training for the purpose of obtaining an additional pilot certificate and rating that are appropriate to that aircraft, and be under the supervision of an authorized instructor; or

(3) Have received training required by this part that is appropriate to the aircraft category, class, and type rating (if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to be flown, and have received the required endorsements from an instructor who is authorized to provide the required endorsements for solo flight in that aircraft.

(e) Additional training required for operating complex airplanes. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e)(2) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a complex airplane (an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller; or, in the case of a seaplane, flaps and a controllable pitch propeller), unless the person has—

(i) Received and logged ground and flight training from an authorized instructor in a complex airplane, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a complex airplane, and has been found proficient in the operation and systems of the airplane; and

(ii) Received a one-time endorsement in the pilot's logbook from an authorized instructor who certifies the person is proficient to operate a complex airplane.

(2) The training and endorsement required by paragraph (e)(1) of this section is not required if the person has logged flight time as pilot in command of a complex airplane, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a complex airplane prior to August 4, 1997.

(f) Additional training required for operating high-performance airplanes. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (f)(2) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a high-performance airplane (an airplane with an engine of more than 200 horsepower), unless the person has—

(i) Received and logged ground and flight training from an authorized instructor in a high-performance airplane, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a high-performance airplane, and has been found proficient in the operation and systems of the airplane; and

(ii) Received a one-time endorsement in the pilot's logbook from an authorized instructor who certifies the person is proficient to operate a high-performance airplane.

(2) The training and endorsement required by paragraph (f)(1) of this section is not required if the person has logged flight time as pilot in command of a high-performance airplane, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a high-performance airplane prior to August 4, 1997.

(g) Additional training required for operating pressurized aircraft capable of operating at high altitudes. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (g)(3) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a pressurized aircraft (an aircraft that has a service ceiling or maximum operating altitude, whichever is lower, above 25,000 feet MSL), unless that person has received and logged ground training from an authorized instructor and obtained an endorsement in the person's logbook or training record from an authorized instructor who certifies the person has satisfactorily accomplished the ground training. The ground training must include at least the following subjects:

(i) High-altitude aerodynamics and meteorology;

(ii) Respiration;

(iii) Effects, symptoms, and causes of hypoxia and any other high-altitude sickness;

(iv) Duration of consciousness without supplemental oxygen;

(v) Effects of prolonged usage of supplemental oxygen;

(vi) Causes and effects of gas expansion and gas bubble formation;

(vii) Preventive measures for eliminating gas expansion, gas bubble formation, and high-altitude sickness;

(viii) Physical phenomena and incidents of decompression; and

(ix) Any other physiological aspects of high-altitude flight.

(2) Except as provided in paragraph (g)(3) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a pressurized aircraft unless that person has received and logged training from an authorized instructor in a pressurized aircraft, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a pressurized aircraft, and obtained an endorsement in the person's logbook or training record from an authorized instructor who found the person proficient in the operation of a pressurized aircraft. The flight training must include at least the following subjects:

(i) Normal cruise flight operations while operating above 25,000 feet MSL;

(ii) Proper emergency procedures for simulated rapid decompression without actually depressurizing the aircraft; and

(iii) Emergency descent procedures.

(3) The training and endorsement required by paragraphs (g)(1) and (g)(2) of this section are not required if that person can document satisfactory accomplishment of any of the following in a pressurized aircraft, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a pressurized aircraft:

(i) Serving as pilot in command before April 15, 1991;

(ii) Completing a pilot proficiency check for a pilot certificate or rating before April 15, 1991;

(iii) Completing an official pilot-in-command check conducted by the military services of the United States; or

(iv) Completing a pilot-in-command proficiency check under part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter conducted by the Administrator or by an approved pilot check airman.

(h) Additional aircraft type-specific training. No person may serve as pilot in command of an aircraft that the Administrator has determined requires aircraft type-specific training unless that person has—

(1) Received and logged type-specific training in the aircraft, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of that type of aircraft; and

(2) Received a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor who has found the person proficient in the operation of the aircraft and its systems.

(i) Additional training required for operating tailwheel airplanes. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (i)(2) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a tailwheel airplane unless that person has received and logged flight training from an authorized instructor in a tailwheel airplane and received an endorsement in the person's logbook from an authorized instructor who found the person proficient in the operation of a tailwheel airplane. The flight training must include at least the following maneuvers and procedures:

(i) Normal and crosswind takeoffs and landings;

(ii) Wheel landings (unless the manufacturer has recommended against such landings); and

(iii) Go-around procedures.

(2) The training and endorsement required by paragraph (i)(1) of this section is not required if the person logged pilot-in-command time in a tailwheel airplane before April 15, 1991.

(j) Additional training required for operating a glider. (1) No person may act as pilot in command of a glider—

(i) Using ground-tow procedures, unless that person has satisfactorily accomplished ground and flight training on ground-tow procedures and operations, and has received an endorsement from an authorized instructor who certifies in that pilot's logbook that the pilot has been found proficient in ground-tow procedures and operations;

(ii) Using aerotow procedures, unless that person has satisfactorily accomplished ground and flight training on aerotow procedures and operations, and has received an endorsement from an authorized instructor who certifies in that pilot's logbook that the pilot has been found proficient in aerotow procedures and operations; or

(iii) Using self-launch procedures, unless that person has satisfactorily accomplished ground and flight training on self-launch procedures and operations, and has received an endorsement from an authorized instructor who certifies in that pilot's logbook that the pilot has been found proficient in self-launch procedures and operations.

(2) The holder of a glider rating issued prior to August 4, 1997, is considered to be in compliance with the training and logbook endorsement requirements of this paragraph for the specific operating privilege for which the holder is already qualified.

(k) Exceptions. (1) This section does not require a category and class rating for aircraft not type-certificated as airplanes, rotorcraft, gliders, lighter-than-air aircraft, powered-lifts, powered parachutes, or weight-shift-control aircraft.

(2) The rating limitations of this section do not apply to—

(i) An applicant when taking a practical test given by an examiner;

(ii) The holder of a student pilot certificate;

(iii) The holder of a pilot certificate when operating an aircraft under the authority of—

(A) A provisional type certificate; or

(B) An experimental certificate, unless the operation involves carrying a passenger;

(iv) The holder of a pilot certificate with a lighter-than-air category rating when operating a balloon;

(v) The holder of a recreational pilot certificate operating under the provisions of §61.101(h); or

(vi) The holder of a sport pilot certificate when operating a light-sport aircraft.

[Doc. No. 25910, 62 FR 40896, July 30, 1997, as amended by Amdt. 61–104, 63 FR 20286, Apr.

anyone understand that then :}

[IO540]

It means you need TSA approval for a PPL or an IR or a ME rating, but not for a CPL or a BFR. I think.