Canadian vs. FAA License.

[Scoobster]

Hi

Just a quick question...

If you hold a Transport Canada Class 1 Medical and CPL/ATPL where in the world are you able to work aside from Canada?

For example, on an FAA license you are able to work anywhere in the world (i.e. Middle East, Far East) for carriers that operate 'N' registered aircraft (without conversion-as far as I understand).

Is there such an option for the holder of a Canadian License?

I am just trying to assess the opportunities of an Canadian vs FAA License.

Thanks.

Scoobster

[Lear45XR]

Hi,

It has to do with the country that you will be dealing with...Let's say that your boss owns a brand new BBJ and wants to have it registered in Bermuda, the Bahamas or some other tax haven. In order for you to fly his plane you would have to get a license validation from that country. If you hold the type rating it is pretty much a done deal. These countries will issue validation on just about every ICAO, JAA or FAA license.

Same goes for the Middle East or Asia but you will have to write some exams to complete the conversion. (Air law and so on)

Remember the FAA is NOT part of the ICAO so when you see someone asking for an ICAO license the FAA doesn't count. Also, an ICAO license doesn't exist by itself-it comes from a country like Canada-Australia (ICAO members)

Last but not least ANY country will validate ANY license based on economics. If companies are loosing money because of a pilot shortage then the goverment will allow for validations to take place.

Supply and demand.

[bell4can]

Here is a link to the ICAO Frequently Asked Questions over licensing:
http://www.icao.int/icao/en/trivia/peltrgFAQ.htm#11
Lear45XR: not sure I understand your statement as the FAA not being a member of ICAO....The US of A is one of 188 member states of ICAO...
Cheers,
Bell4can

[ferrydude]

I suppose next we'll be told how Canada invented the Learjet:eek:
There is a reason its called the CHICAGO CONVENTION there Ace.

http://www.icao.int/cgi/goto_m.pl?icao/en/hist/history02.htm

[Lear45XR]

Hey Bell.

My mistake:\

What I meant was that the US may issue an ATPL that does not meet the ICAO standard, and when they do, it is clearly stated on the license itself.

"holder does not meet ICAO requirements"

So let's rephrase-Your US ATPL may or may not meet the ICAO standard but your Canadian one will.

XR

True enough we didn't invent the Wichita Rocket, but Learjet is ours now...:E

[ferrydude]

Could you be more specific? What FAA ATP certificate does not conform to ICAO requirements?

[chandlers dad]

True enough we didn't invent the Wichita Rocket, but Learjet is ours now...:E

For now its yours. Bombardier has been trying to sell the Lear line for years now. Oh yea, Bombardier did not design the Challenger either. Some fellow named Lear did that one as well! :)

The LR-45 is the first Lear that Bombardier really designed. As least they got the landing gear, wheels and brakes right. Using LR-25 sized brakes/wheels on a LR-60 is pure folly but they keep doing it. Lots of pilots will be happy when the new carbon fiber units come out!

[Lear45XR]

Ferrydude:

You may be issued a ATP if you credit:

SIC or FE time towards the 1500hrs Total flight time experience.
Remember that the ICAO will only accept 50% SIC time and does not accept FE time.:ok: But the FAA is OK with that.

Chandlers dad:

I have enough time in both models to agree 100% about the brakes...A guy named Lear for a company named FedEx that wanted a cargo plane that looked like the CRJ and is now called the CRJ-200PF:E
It only took 25 years...

I doubt that they are trying to sell the only unit (business aircraft) that has been making real money over the last few years.

XR

[ferrydude]

Ummm, Ok. I'm trying to think of a situation where this has ever occured and was ever any sort of issue in the real world.

[Lear45XR]

This happens when:

500 PIC (CFI or whatever time you have)
1 000 SIC on a GII

1 500TT= US ATP

ICAO says 500 PIC plus 1000/2=1 000
1 000TT as far as getting the ATP is concerned. Once you have 2000 SIC or another 500 PIC then you're good.

Issue in the real world??? I doudt that anyone would hire a Captain with 1500TT anyway, but if you want to get a validation the issuing authority may not like "holder does not meet ICAO requirements"

Cheers!

[ferrydude]

Never seen not heard of a US ATP certificate issue with a statement of non conformance to ICAO requirements on it. I have obtained countless validations from member states and would be quite surprised if anyone could produce evidence of such verbiage on a FAA ATP certificate.

[Lear45XR]

Fully Qualified Applicants.

(1) Inspectors and examiners shall prepare an

FAA Form 8060-4, Temporary Airman Certificate in duplicate for all fully qualified applicants. See paragraph 37 of chapter 1 for instructions on completing the Temporary Airman Certificate. The inspector or examiner shall determine if an applicant meets the flight time requirements of ICAO. Applicants should present the written test application job aid, signed and dated by the inspector who prepared it as verification of the ICAO requirements. If the applicant cannot present the job aid, the applicant must present logbooks which verify the ICAO requirements. If the applicant does not present a job aid or logbooks, the inspector or examiner may issue the temporary certificate, provided both ICAO restrictions are placed on
that certificate.

(a) If an applicant does not meet the ICAO total time requirement,the following restriction must be placed on the temporary certificate, “Holder does not meet the pilot flight experience requirements of
ICAO.”

(b) If an applicant does not meet the pilot-incommand requirements of ICAO, the following restriction
must be placed on the temporary certificate, “Holder does not meet the pilot-in-command experience
requirements of ICAO.”


(2) Applicants shall be given the duplicate copy of the temporary certificate.

(3) Inspectors and examiners shall complete, date, and sign the FAA Form 8410-2 (application). Place a diagonal line across the back of the form and write on the line, “Job aid used.” Completed job aids may be either retained or disposed of by the inspector or examiner after the certification package is complete. The job aid should
not be attached to the certification package.

(4) Inspectors and examiners shall complete the PTRS data sheet. See paragraph 41 for instructions on completing this form.


57. ICAO RESTRICTIONS. The fl i g ht time requirements for an ATP certificate with an airplane
category rating are more restrictive under the ICAO standards than those under FAR Part 61. An applicant may meet the requirements described in paragraph 55 of this section and be eligible for a U.S. ATP certificate, but not meet the ICAO requirements. In this case, an ICAO restriction must be placed on the applicant’s ATP certificate. A determination of whether an applicant meets the ICAO requirements does not have

12/20/94 8400.10 CHG 10





Vol. 5 5-39
to be made until the temporary certificate is issued. It is



convenient for inspectors to make the ICAO determination, however, when the determination of eligibility for the knowledge test is being made. An inspector who makes the determination of eligibility for a knowledge test should also determine if an ICAO restriction is required. Information concerning the ICAO determination should be entered on the ATP-Knowledge Qualifications Job Aid and given to the applicant to present to the inspector issuing the temporary certificate. Inspectors shall indicate on the ATP-Knowledge Qualifications Job
Aid whether any ICAO restriction is required. The inspector shall date and sign the job aid, and give it to the applicant. The inspector shall explain the IACO restrictions and inform the applicant that the job aid
should be presented to the inspector or examiner who completes the certification and issues the temporary certificate. If the applicant fails to present the signed job aid, the applicant’s logbooks will have to resubmitted
before a temporary certificate can be issued. There are two circumstances in which an ICAO restriction must be
added to an applicant’s ATP certificate:


The first circumstance requiring an ICAO restriction is when the applicant uses SIC or FE time to meet the 1,500 total pilot hour requirement. The restriction isrequired when the total of the applicant’s PIC time (see paragraph 55A, first bullet) and 50 percent of the SIC time (see paragraph 55A, third bullet) does not exceed 1,200 hours. In this case, the restriction placed on the certificate must be, “Holder does not meet the pilot flight experience requirements of ICAO.” The following is an example of how to compute whether this restriction is required:


The second circumstance requiring an ICAO restriction is when an applicant has less than 150 actual



PIC hours. In this case, the restriction placed on the certificate must be, “Holder does not meet the PIC flight experience requirement of ICAO.” See paragraph 55B.

XR:ok:

[Scoobster]

O.K I got it..

So in essence then if one (non-national of USA or Canada) had the option of going to the USA to obtain an FAA ATP and the option of also going to Canada for the ATP, which would be more beneficial in the long run?

What factors should be taken into consideration, aside from the exchange rate?

I hear Canada is a great place to do some flying but the prospects of employment is not as high as the USA, on the other side of the coin, if you are a non-national of the USA your chances of employment are slim in the USA but many carriers still accept FAA license in Far East Asia, which is positive. Is this the case with Canadian too?

Thanks.
Scoobster.

[ferrydude]

Archaic regulations do not surprise me in the least. However, I would be surprised by an example of an actual application of this. Does anyone have a credible example of an FAA ATP certificate actually being issued with this ICAO restriction? I thought not.

[Jetgate]

gosh don't people love to go off topic.....

Scoobster, I did ab-initio training and then subsequently worked in BC, Canada and returned to England to convert. So with what I have seen over here in the UK; as long as the N reg privileges are not eventually eroded by the CAA; there is certainly a LOT more potential for work with a FAA licence. I have never seen any jobs advertised in the UK specifically for a Transport Canada licence holder... shame! With regards to the Middle & Far East, despite not having any personal work experience from over there but by keeping abreast of employment trends and requirements I would think you'd again be SLIGHTLY better off with a FAA licence.

On the other side of the coin, after reading some of your earlier threads I have to tell you that I've heard of people who due to similar dilemmas as your self, have immigrated to Canada and after completing their training are now happily living and working there.... Western Canada is a truly magnificent place and I certainly intend to immigrate there my self one day.

All the best and GOOD LUCK! :ok:

[Scoobster]

Hi Jetgate

Thanks for the reply. I was getting a bit confused with all the PIC talk and wondering off the topic, thanks for bringing it back on track :}

Just so I have got it correct, you did Ab-Initio training for the FAA license? and worked in Canada with an FAA license? or converted to Canadian? or have I completely mis-interpreted it?!

Also, how similar are the CAR's with the FAR's..if you have an FAA License does it mean you should have no trouble obtaining a Canadian License and Medical.

There seem to be many opportunities both in USA and further afield for those who hold an FAA License. There are also many opportunities in homeland England with a JAR license if you manage to cut through the 'red' tape. I was looking into Canada as another potential country for training. I have heard it is a truly magnificient place to study and work and offers a great quality of life, breath taking scenery and panoramic views..

Well, heres hoping...

Thanks for your input...

[yyzdub]

Not having an FAA nor a Canadian license, I do have quite a bit of experience of license conversions and can assure you that when looking for jobs, most countries or at least the ones you would be likely to probably get work in are more concerned with experience and time on type than the license. However, I do think that the training as a whole (of course there are exceptions) may be slightly better than in the US - this is where I get my head bitten off :oh: and converting, especially for a wannabe, could be easier given the training you have received but again there are exceptions to every rule.

As for more jobs in the UK with an FAA license really only holds true typically within the corporate jet sector where a majority of aircraft are N reg.

Either way though, a license is really just that a license - it all comes down to experience and time on type. Personally I would choose my training location based on location and what I can see and do there and hopefully somewhere that can offer a bit of a challenge and excitement i.e. flying in and out of the same fields and seeing nothing but flat will get boring - FAST!

Best of luck

[Panama Jack]

Lear45XL unnecessarily confused the issue by stating a particular instance in which US Certificates did not meet ICAO standards. It would have been at par with saying saying that Canadian licences do not meet ICAO requirements . . . because in the case of Canadian Recreational Pilot Licence and Microlight Licence, this is not an ICAO licence, etc.

I hold US and Canadian ATP's. If you are a citizen of neither country, I would say that you should find out how each licence is viewed by your home country. The reason for this is that your local Civil Aviation Directorate may favor one over the other. For example, Oman's Directorate General of Civil Aviation and Meteorology (DGCAM) has issues over the way US licences are issued and so does not like the US Certificates except under other qualifying factors.

However, in most other cases, I have come to consider my US Cerificate as a licence to print money. It is more widely recognized, the worldwide N-registered fleet is humongous and the more lucrative contracts call for US Certificates. It is also a easier licence to maintain-- no regular licence validation fees, unlimited validity of both the licences and the Instrument Rating, and FAA medical examiners in almost every country worldwide.

However, neither licence is worth much without significant experience.

[chandlers dad]

However, in most other cases, I have come to consider my US Cerificate as a licence to print money. It is more widely recognized, the worldwide N-registered fleet is humongous and the more lucrative contracts call for US Certificates. It is also a easier licence to maintain-- no regular licence validation fees, unlimited validity of both the licences and the Instrument Rating, and FAA medical examiners in almost every country worldwide.
However, neither licence is worth much without significant experience.

I have held both licenses at one time and agree with the above. To tell the truth the only time I have used my Canadian license was to pick up new planes at Bombardier and ferry them someplace.

As well agree that its easy to keep an FAA license. Once you earn it, its yours forever, as it should be. Its not valid without a medical and the medical expires, again IMHO as it should be. This bs of your license expiring is just that, a lot of hot air. You retain the knowledge and have to test for a medical to remain an airman.