Jetstar pilots will have time to reflect

[Ejector]

To our dear Jetstar drivers,

It must be getting very exciting for you now.

Wont be long till you will be laying over in different international ports. Can you do me a favor, and after you have a beer with other 330 drivers and you "compare" your net incomes, and you realize what the majority of you voted for, I ask you to write a poem and express your feelings and then post it here. You are aloud to make direct reference to anal lube of many brands.

C'mon, tell us how it really feels. :rolleyes:

[Pass-A-Frozo]

1> What salary are you currently on Ejector?

2> What makes you think you can dictate what others should be happy to work with?

3> Are just telling people to not accept jobs earning a salary less than yours because you are worried about your salary?

What do you say to people if they didn't take the Jetstar job (because you were unhappy with what they would be paid) and are still earning a GA wage? Should they have a beer and think "I'm glad Ejector is happy... and I don't have thousands of dollars more in my pay cheque each week".

Such a selfish post.. telling people what they should work for.. tut tut tut :=
What's next? Abusing people who buy a house you want and pay more than you would?? Shame on them driving up the price of houses. :rolleyes:

[Ejector]

Fact is that the majority voted to be paid below the intl standard for a wide body F/O. I dare say that the majority of Jetstar drivers would be above the intl standard in standards and ability. I can only presume that the majority of them don’t relies this or they wouldn’t of voted them selves down like a subservient dog. I am just saying, that in my opinion that it would be nice to get their feelings when they relies this. It may be a way of therapy for them and a way of saying sorry to those who have a desire of working for intl conditions while living in Australia. I think it is short term selfishness for very short term personal gain for those that voted to lower the Australian standard, so go tar tar := the undercutting folks. Shame on them. Frozo, I am talking about degraded Terms and Conditions, not real estate.

[fatbus]

Is there a document that states the standard for international wide body f/o wages , if so could you give a ref. Thanks

[Pass-A-Frozo]

I'd like to ask again..

1> What salary are you currently on Ejector?

That way everyone can critique your salary, and find what airlines pay more than what you are working on. I can only assume you are working at the highest paid airline in the world. Let's see who you are undercutting.

[B A Lert]

I'd like to ask again..
1> What salary are you currently on Ejector?
....

If Ejector's salary is as good as his spelling, it's not that bloody good! Why should he be worrying?

[Ejector]

Hi fatbus,

Most J* F/O are experenced pilots, not a 200hr cadet, and most have very good upgrade skills. And happliy vote for about $33,000usd net a year, living in a capital city in Australia. Don't tell me that is average.
Then for new staff, got to do the pre job training donation and pay that off, but don't worry,,,,,,it's a tax right off:yuk:

There is no point defending this vote for a lower standard of life, it has happend.

This group will be the first to complain when they understand what they have done. :ugh:

[Pass-A-Frozo]

So what's your salary?

Actually, weren't you a Loadmaster on C130's?? What's your agenda here? I don't get it. Did you do a CPL or Cadet scheme in Asia??

So what's your salary?

[Gromit by Name]

don't relies this

voted them selves down

when they relies this.

I am yet to see an International Standard for A330 salaries so too would be interested in the basis for your slanderous argument. There is however a standard for English.

Your attempt at what is a complex industrial relations argument is shattered by your apparent inability to deal with what one could consider a fundamental core skill of our profession - spelling.

[B A Lert]

I just realised that Ejector doesn't receive a salary as he has been.....renumerated!! Sorry.;)

To nitpick, most pilots do not receive a salary unless thay have agreed to work for a fixed amount of dollars (or whatever currency) a year.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Did I miss a renumerated / remunerated joke here?? :)

Let's not be too unkind. English may not be his first language. Let's play the issue...

[UNOME]

Worldwide; A330 Captains average USD11,500 gross per month.

The only "complex" word Ejector managed to "eject" correctly was subservient....:ouch:

[Ejector]

Sure, I fly a B58 in GA for approx $40,000. Does it suck. It sure does when you compare to how much I have invested into this job compared to what my non aviation friends make. I don’t think I am under cutting other B58 pilots out there, I have never paid for an endorsement nor worked as a pilot for free or below industry standard like many who work for free to get hours. When I chose to be a pilot, I knew there would be some tight years to get hours before moving onto jobs that would be rewarded financially. To have a bunch of people come along and down grade this future goal and shattered to such a pathetic level by comparison, well, I have every reason to be some what annoyed. So, if you want to compare a B58 to be some sort of scum, well so be it Froza. Chances are you think it’s fine for GA folks to work for free.:ugh:

[Keg]

Geez, you know the discussion is going well when the usual suspects revert to targeting spelling and utilsing the 'I know you are but what am I' style of response. :rolleyes:

It matters zilch what pay ejector is on, I suspect his point is more that a bunch of silly Aussie pilots agreed to fly an aircraft type for a ****e load less than a bunch of other Aussie pilots had previously negotiated. The reasons for this vary from the 'get stuffed QF pilot' brigade through to the 'at least it's better than what I'm on now' brigade. That was and is short sighted given the struggle around the world to find pilots.

If they'd joined forces instead of trying to go it alone perhaps they could have got a better deal!

Someone want to play the man and pick my typo(s) or are we in fact going to actually discuss this on the merits? :*

What's your salary PAF? That's got about the same relevance to the discussion! := Actually disregard that. I can work it out on my own anyway. FLTLT right? Top band? $61K or thereabouts. Service rate= $9K. Flying pay or are you a blunt masquerading as a pilot? :E Eight years but less than ten? $26K Strewth....all up you're on more than a J* F/O! :rolleyes: Not bad for an desk driver!

[B A Lert]

Did I miss a renumerated / remunerated joke here?? :)
Let's not be too unkind. English may not be his first language. Let's play the issue...

A lot of poor spellers also mangle the language. How often have you heard someone say 'juvenile denilquins' when they really mean 'juvenile delinquents' or 'lesbianese' for 'lesbian'? Likewise, 'renumeration' (if the word exists in other than the USA), is often used when 'remuneration' is meant.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

ahh. The Keganator..
let's see here... You know I love a good discussion:

'I know you are but what am I' style of response. I was referring to his first post. Not rocket science..
It matters zilch what pay ejector is on, I suspect his point Well no.. don't suspect.. (hence why I asked what his agenda was). If you wish to abuse people for accepting a certain salary, it begs the question what he earns and also who would have taken his job for more or less. This is the matter at hand. People would do the same job for varying amounts of money. I'm sure most people here would collect garbage each morning for $1.7 million a year (to take it to an extreme).

The reasons for this vary from the 'get stuffed QF pilot' brigade through to the 'at least it's better than what I'm on now' brigade. That was and is short sighted given the struggle around the world to find pilots.
Well no, to you it may be short sighted but you don't know how that move fits into their lives. It's not fair to fit your circumstances to other peoples decisions. I know many a good man who have gone to work on conditions not that dissimilar to JetStar - and I agree it was a good move for them.

If they'd joined forces instead of trying to go it alone perhaps they could have got a better deal! Really? Do you think the airline would hire / keep just as many pilots if you increased the salary by say 50% Of course not... someone loses out.. It's just conveniant that the people abusing others for accepting less aren't at risk of not being employed.Someone want to play the man and pick my typo(s) or are we in fact going to actually discuss this on the merits? See we do agree sometimes :}

PS: What's your salary PAF? That's got about the same relevance to the discussion! Actually disregard that. I can work it out on my own anyway. FLTLT right? Flying pay or are you a blunt masquerading as a pilot? You can work it out. I'd post the link but be in trouble for posting an ad :)

[amos2]

Oh boy!...

no wonder the profession of airline pilot has gone down the gurgler!

:sad:

[UNOME]

You made your decision Frozo.

The worldwide remainder of the aviation fraternity do not agree with it and are not required too. :)

Always remember (as you enjoy your many days off in HNL), QF needed "X" amount of pilots to make Jetstar a reality..and would have paid market value to achieve it! They already pay it to mainline.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

What decision was that??? Re-read Keg's post.. :ok:

But.. given what I assume you were assuming...

I don't think people who took the pay / conditions you are against are in bed telling there wives "Sorry for taking a better job honey.. I've upset some random person"...

How's your salary in real terms UNOME compared to what the 89'ers were asking?? ?Have you undercut them?

[Yakka]

B A Lert

You are a dcik Haed, You are tnunig tihs trehad into a joke.

Perhaps you should start a thread on spelling mistakes and leave this thread those that want to discuss the topic.

Get over yourself.

Yakka

[Wizofoz]

Ejector, UNOME et al get paid the same as everyone else- what was on offer at the time. If they and everyone else had rejected the deal they are currently on, it would have been improved-but they took it. I guess that means that unless they are the best paid aviators in the world, they must be an anagram of CABS, no?:rolleyes:

[neville_nobody]

If they'd joined forces instead of trying to go it alone perhaps they could have got a better deal!
!

Yeah well that tried that from day one but a certain union knocked them back.
Why on earth didn't AIPA just join with them then?? That decision still bewilders me to this day!!

Ejector you are not alone in your frustration of the whole way this thing has panned out. Going through GA is not going to be worth soon because it has basically turned into airlines. And unlike other parts of the world LCC here ARE THE END OF THE ROAD, whereas in Europe people move onto bigger and better things after a few years in a LCC.

[B A Lert]

You are tnunig tihs trehad into a joke

Someone has to take the p*ss!

How many threads here have been devoted to denigrating what the JPC did what it thought was in the interests of its members? AIPA mighn't like it. Qantas pilots mightn't like it. All kinds of pilots mightn't like it but obviously quite a few are in favour of the negotiated deal. They did what was best for them, as do members of other unions including AIPA. Surely it's time to get over it? The deal is done, and the horse has been flogged. How much longer are people going to bang on about it?

[whosyourdaddy]

Frozo, by your comments, I would guess you are a Jetstar Pilot, uneducated in international operations and stars in your eyes at the excitement of flying a big jet across the pacific. You can argue your point all you like, but if you think you are going to have some sort of fantastic lifestyle on what the JPC has accepted, you are mistaken. I'm with Ejector. Love to see if you've got the same fight in you in 12 months time.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Frozo, by your comments, I would guess you are a Jetstar Pilot, uneducated in international operations and stars in your eyes at the excitement of flying a big jet across the pacific. You can argue your point all you like, but if you think you are going to have some sort of fantastic lifestyle on what the JPC has accepted, you are mistaken. I'm with Ejector. Love to see if you've got the same fight in you in 12 months time.
... and the survey says... " baaa booooooooowwwww".. I'm surprised you haven't read the previous trial and error outings ..

I'd guess you are uneducated..... just uneducated... :}

I will argue my point all I like. You know why?? I think this way.. and what bugs you is there are hundreds of pilots who took the pay deal you don't like that agree with me. They just won't bother argueing with you. They report to another boss.... their families ! I don't think that their wives are really concerned what you think. Unfortunately you need to realise that if other people accept a certain salary, they really don't care what you think.

[Point0Five]

whosyourdaddy is certainly a case in point for how somebody's opinions can change in 12 months time. He's changed his tune from August last year!

So, upstarts, stop the whinging, show some respect for your employer, take some pride in making yourself a better person/pilot, learn from the experience and get over it. You won't be there long and YOU for one will be a lot better off.

[Ejector]

When I started my PPL with the intention of following it through as a future there was light at the end of the tunnel as a rewarding career. At the end of the day, that light is disappearing fast. Froza, you seem to think I would work for Jetstar as it is a step up. I agree a wide body is. No I wouldn’t work for them, nor have I even applied for Dash-8, Saab and metro companies that require you to pay for your training. I am not and will not touch that subject here. The Jetstar A330 wages are a black light my friend, in my opinion, barley more than a candle flicker, at the mercy of a puff of wind, not the good light to aim at in the GA the tunnel.

I need lube daily in GA, seems like some enjoyed the GA enema just too much and desired to bring flying a A330 long haul to the same level. At least on $40k on a Baron, I can sleep, knowing I am not trying to justify my decision to my peers. Sure I wish I was paid more, but that’s the typical going rate for a baron. Jetstar does not offer the typical going rate. I know a PA31 company that pilots work for less than the average, below GA award and thus directly makes companies that pay it directly suffer. I see no difference, just on a larger scale. You seemed so interested to what my salary was, chances are if you were on a B58 flogging around the boonies, you have set the precedent that you would be happy on half that just for the hours and I would be unemployed as my boss couldn’t compete to scab labor companies.

Froza, it’s your right to justify your position you took to your self and family, just never complain to me. You wont get an ear.:D

[UNOME]

Frozo. "How's your salary in real terms UNOME compared to what the 89'ers were asking?? ?Have you undercut them?"[/quote]

Nope. I was (and still am) working for the same Airline I joined long before '89 therefore, unlike you Sir, I am not undercutting anyone.:zzz:

[max autobrakes]

to quote from neville_nobody's post

"Yeah well that tried that from day one but a certain union knocked them back.
Why on earth didn't AIPA just join with them then?? That decision still bewilders me to this day!! "

I agree.
Guess who the President of "that" union was who told a group of concerned chaps from Impulse to get stuffed, not interested ,and the result was the impetus to set up the IPC which is now the JPC,( JetStar pilots council.) [I've spoken with the chap who was there and he swears on a stack of bibles as to the veracity of this statement to me.]

Yep you guessed it, the President at the time is the same fellow who believes it's good to be King.
Might also explain a few thing like this same fellow set up Australian Airlines and is now using that as a tool to cause anal trauma to pilots.
This same chap also conned a pay freeze out of the pilots one EBA whilst president.Then again I suppose being King is better than being a mere President.
All a bit too insidious for my liking.:cool:

[aircraft]

Hands up all those that think their level of personal happiness/satisfaction is dependent on how much money they earn.

Seriously, this is not a wind up. Please come forward and make the explicit statement. Something like: "I believe I would be more happy and/or satisfied in my life if I was paid more money". Or something to that effect.

Almost all the QF pilots that have attacked the Jetstar pilots for accepting their EBA should be coming forward - let's see it!

Ejector should be coming forward too, as he is bitter that the Jetstar pilots have condemned him to a poorly paid future.

Oh, and don't try to say that the Jetstar EBA attacks were about terms and conditions in general and not just salary because I won't believe you. Go back over all the threads that have come up on this subject and you will agree with me that 90% of the references to it were about salary only.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Hmm.. UNOME, who am I undercutting??

Ejector: I think you missed my point What is your salary is a rhetorical question used to emphasize my point. It doesn't matter what salary others think you should earn. It matter what you want to work for. You sound happy with your decisions, stop abusing other people for theirs.

[UNOME]

Frozo

Hmmm...Just about every other Airbus driver in the world.:D

[Boney]

ME work at company where average salary is 50K

ME work at company where ave. driver has 3,500TT, 1,500Multi, 500Multi Command Turbine

ME work at company that generally treats us all pretty OK

ME works at company where most reckon a job at jetstar 2 years ago was a great gig - sure, electrician wages = FO & Capt = electrician + lots of over-time, but home every night.

ME works at a company where everyone reckons that an extra 10% (or whatever the insult actually is?) 'aint gonna cover multiple divorces over the next 20 yrs 'cause you are never home?

ME works at the same company where everyone(????) reckons they won't apply to Jetstar because they know they will will be posted Intl because they current crews would not be stupid enough to leave Domestic?

Me reckons that 10% will still apply and ME thinks they can have it.

ME is sad because ME thought a couple of years ago that it would be a great organisation to be a part of.

ME not gonna gonna apply - where are all the drivers gonna come from???????????

[murgatroid]

Aircraft,

I think you will find lots of reasons on what constitutes satisfaction.

Some just like flying, some like the money, some like the lifestyle, some might even like the way they look in a uniform. For most it is some kind of combination of these (maybe not the uniform) and other things.

When you spend tens of thousands getting the basic requirements. When you spend years getting the experience. When your licence is at constant risk. When you deal with complex equipment, technology, weather, ATC, language, foreign facilities, etc etc etc. When you spend 1/3 of your life away from family.

When you do all this, you expect an adequate remuneration AND terms and conditions.

You could probably trade a bit of T&C for a bit more money, you could probably trade money for better T&C.

But you wouldn't trade both for nothing.

Get it!

[Boney]

Murgatroid



"But you wouldn't trade both for nothing"



EXACTLY!!!!

[Ejector]

I can and will abuse ScabStar A330 pilots as much as I want because they deserve it. :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

The same as the initial B1900 pilots for Impulse that lead the way in degrading Regional turbo props in Australia many years ago, long haul is now up the creek too. Your buddies have the honor to be remembered with them. But it’s a democracy, U can do what ever you want and be labeled how ever you want. I really don’t care deep down, the tide has fully turned and it’s over in Australia for long haul pilots.

Maybe I should go and offer my self for $20k so I can get more hours and subsidize the company, and maybe enable them to gain contracts from the opposition by under cutting them and make a basing on the coast and base a KingAir there which would be nice and stay on $20k for turbine time and oh, but then I would be a scab. Awfully similar.

Go all the way spewStar, Why don't you work for free for the first month.:E

[Gnadenburg]

Go all the way spewStar, Why don't you work for free for the first month.:E

Well they do. Traditionally, you join an airline, get paid from day 1, do inhouse training ( which the airline paid for ).

The VB & J* pilots now pay for an endorsement and support themselves whilst going through their initial training. In effect, working for the first 6 months for free.

[whosyourdaddy]

No, No Frozo. I see the fight is still there. What I said was, lets see if you feel, what you consider to be an appropriate level of pay and conditions to be the same in 12 months time. I'd be frightened too if I was you. You see, at the end of the day, it's about when you are able to put your feet up and give it all away.
Currently for me, I'd guess it's 60. Thanks to the JPC, you're already somewhere between 65 and 70.(as a general rule of course). Don't suppose you'd looked at it that way.

[Johhny Utah]

How about the guys attacking PAF for being part of the merry band of JetStar pilots go back & read the thread from the beginning. I'm not defending his statements/argument (far from it - a bit too much playing as the Devil's advocate I feel!), but please read the previous posts so that you can get back to the central argument - rather than trying to play the man, who isn't actually the man playing on the side that you may think - it's all there in black & white (or do JetStar have Flight Lieutenants instead of F/O's these days...?) :ugh:

com·pre·hen·sion (kŏm'prĭ-hĕn'shən) pronunciation
n.

1. The act or fact of grasping the meaning, nature, or importance of; understanding.
2. The knowledge that is acquired in this way.
3. Capacity to include.
4. Logic. The sum of meanings and corresponding implications inherent in a term.

[Middle English comprehensioun, from Latin comprehēnsiō, comprehēnsiōn-, from comprehēnsus, past participle of comprehendere, to comprehend. See comprehend.]

[Keg]

(or do JetStar have Flight Lieutenants instead of F/O's these days...?) :ugh:


As an aside I don't reckon they'll have many former FLTLTs working for them in the future either. Given the package that PAF and his compatriots are on they'd have to really hate being a PAFie in order to consider dropping the $20K plus to flog around in essentially the same equipment that they may have just been on (A330MRTT!).

[pakeha-boy]

Ejector....you need to stay flying your B58 and keep making your $40k.....you sound miserable and pissed off,..the traits of a GA pilot!!!!
Ive got news for you mate,look around the bloody world a little and you will see scores of J*s in disguise,they have just named them differently........J* is not the new boy on the block,they (LCC) are the new boys on the block....and they have been thriving for years...get used to it
You say the good times for the long haul drivers are over....no ****e,most of us have known it for years....ALPA ,my union operate like old people shag!!!
You talk about money...there is no standard,where did you dream up that idea....YOU GET WHAT YOU NEGOTIATE!!!! simple!!!.....
Whilst I believe you have a valid point and I subscribe to your principles,you are out of touch,...J*(and Ilm not defending them)are just like the airline I fly for.....so now your calling me a s@@b....FARKYOU...have never s@@bed in my life....
Was told last week(and I was fishing) that if I got my OZ ATPL and oz Medical(a paperwork formality)that direct entry CAPT A320 was on the cards...would I take the job ...NO.....(maybe yes to piss pete conrad off)....really only wanted to see what the real story was,and to compare with some outfits here in the states.........
Mate,dont get miserable about it....for you...get on with J*....you cant change much by being on the outside,but you can on the inside....and mate.your not even the orange -boy yet......PB

[ernestkgann]

That's PAFs point Keg, they won't do it because the market dictates (their current package) that they will be worse off.

[DutchRoll]

An interesting point PAF: it's not always just the market which dictates remuneration. For example, there are certain areas where people will happily tolerate paying higher salaries for a service, if they feel it's in their best interests (you can have your heart bypass done real cheap in Kenya, or you can get it done expensively at Royal North Shore). And there are certain areas where people are paid more because they control the purse strings (CEOs of poorly performing companies who retain their huge bonuses?).

Another interesting point: whether or not someone is perceived as being 'overpaid' is extremely subjective. The cleaner in the local shopping centre would probably think the checkout chicks are overpaid. I imagine that he/she almost certainly thinks I'm overpaid. Bill Gates though, probably couldn't give a stuff what I earn.

Therein lies the problem. For the public to be happy with my pay & not get upset about me getting a payrise, labour for my job either has to be in short supply, and/or they have to put enough value on what I do.

[grrowler]

I suspect that many of the high n mighty airline pilots would, if they were currently in GA/ regional, would jump at the opportunity to fly J*. In fact, people I know in QF, before they got in, were applying to any 2 bit company that had a jet.

I will be extremely interested in seeing the intestinal fortitude displayed when the QF LH EBA is negotiated.

As usual we are pointing the blame at a group of pilots, instead of working together. How about we blame the government for allowing workers bargaining rights to be continually diminished, and allowing big corporations free rein to do whatever the beancounters please, with no regard to safety whatsoever.

If I hear another management type say "Safety before schedule"again I think I'll be sick!!

[Keg]

As usual we are pointing the blame at a group of pilots, instead of working together.

I think it's more a case of blaming a group of pilots because they chose to not work together! :ugh: Irrespective of mistakes made by people in the past (despite urging by rank and file members to cover all group pilots from even before QF bought Impulse) there were offers on the table to the JPC to work together before this crap EBA deal was done.

[max autobrakes]

Self interest and greed. That's what makes the modern world go 'round AMEN.:O

[ACMS]

I was on the Mel airport Skybus a year back listening to a grubby looking surfy type telling the driver all about his new job as FO on the 320 with Jet*. He said
"it was nice to finally reach the top" I nearly crapped my pants with laughter. I actually held my tongue, not something I usually do but it was 0730 and I'd just arrived from HKG.
If these Jet* type of people are allowed to continue degrading our job then I guess pretty soon Jet* Capt will be the top of the pile. Damn shame really.
my 2 cents worth.

[hotnhigh]

Right on the money Keg.

[jack red]

Read in this morning's paper that Hawaii is to be added to JetStar's destinations. I guess if you're going to have days off down route, HNL would be one of the better places to spend them.:E

[proplever]

I remember arguing on this website 5 years ago that these people (read Jetstar aka nopulse) were a danger to the industry.

And just look where we are today.

They have just about ruined the possibility of our ever being comfortable in our occupation for the forseeable future.

You may say, blame management. Nope. I'd do the same if I were one of the midget evil twins.

It was up to these guys. And they caved without even a squeak. God help them if their intestinal fortitude is so lacking in this case, they won't have any chance of coping with an emergency in flight.

Zero backbone. Pathetic.:yuk:

[The Professor]

Dutch Roll said - An interesting point PAF: it's not always just the market which dictates remuneration. For example, there are certain areas where people will happily tolerate paying higher salaries for a service, if they feel it's in their best interests (you can have your heart bypass done real cheap in Kenya, or you can get it done expensively at Royal North Shore).

People will tolerate paying higher prices for the Royal North Shore hospital surgery because there are very clear differences between it and the royal Kenya Hospital surgery. Lower infection rates, fewer hospital deaths and higher success rates during surgery mean that the RNH offers much better quality that is worth paying for.

What do QF pilots offer QF that Jetstar pilots don’t. Why would Dixon pay a premium for QF pilots when the service they offer is actually less than that offered by a competing supplier of labor with the same or similar infection rates etc.

[sweetpollypurebred]

It's a fair chance that infection has a big scab on it!:yuk:

[Woomera]

This thread has run way past its use by date...you're just lucky...it seems all the Woomeras have been busy.

The next person who mentions 'scab' in any thread let alone one about Jetstar will be banned...not sin binned...BANNED!!!:mad: