Old & Modular

[six-sixty]

No, not a dodgy video, just the standard 2 monthly rant that's due on the subject as I'm in a bad mood today.
Every time I see my mate who's a training captain for Easy down the pub he looks exasparated. "Why haven't you got a job yet?" he demands. "We're desparate" he continues. "There are jobs everywhere" he adds, throwing in "you're not trying hard enough" Grrrrrr.

So I point out that the only way into Easy (without 500 hours multi crew) is via CTC and they've got an age limit of 33 (I am 38), which seems to shut him up for a couple of pints.

So I got to thinking. We've got age discrimination laws coming very soon I believe. Also we live in a bonkers human rights/entitlement culture. At the risk of sounding like Richard Littlejohn, if I am a kiddy fiddler it is my human right to download porn in my prison cell... if I am a terrorist hijacker it's my human right to get a fully furnished house and a regular income (you couldn't make it up, etc).

So I've decided it is my human right to be an airline pilot and not be discriminated against because of my age. "Aha" I hear you say... "oldies are extremely high training risks, so they'll just come out with some other excuse to weed you out". Well I say that complying with whatever nuts legislation is around is a cost of doing business. There are armies of people out there who's job it is to check how many disabled/gay/old/ethnic minority/jedi etc people a company interviews and subsequently hires. In my last job I was not allowed to not hire someone who for religious reasons needed to go home after lunch every Friday. Expensive & inconvenient for the company? Yes. Tough.

Imagine it all came out in the open and, an airline had to show a quota of over 50's in every type rating course? Ha! So what if it's expensive for the airlines. It's also expensive to back-fill for someone who goes on maternity leave, but companies still have to do it. I didn't invent the system!

So who fancies a bit of a class action against CTC for age discrimination? I know they don't actually employ you per se, but to all intents they're just proxies for Easy etc's age policy. Would it benefit me personally? No I'd probably be branded a trouble maker and never get a flying job ever. Not much change there then. Its a stupid enough idea we could probably get Cherie Blair to be our advocate and get it free on legal aid.

Come on people. I'm in a fundamentalist mood this morning. And on that note a message to all the Integrated bunnies using my head as a stepping stone to the top of the Connect hold pool: Be very careful when you cross the road :}

[scruggs]

Right on mate - couldn't agree more.

I'm with you. You lead - I'll follow!

:ok:

[adm100]

I don’t think you’ll get much mileage out of using the discrimination card against an airline. I’m guessing their argument would be that, although they place an age restriction on new applicants, it is only a restriction for a low hour entry and most companies could easily demonstrate that they employ a wide range of age of pilots (i.e. in easyjet I’m sure that there are loads of ex BA guys over 55).

When I was at my training school we had a talk from the recruitment guy from Jet2. He seemed really keen to take on older, second career type people. His argument was that because they only had 15-20 years of potential paid flying left, they were unlikely (well less likely) than a 20 year old to want to change companies when they had enough hours. The way he saw it was that employing older pilots was less of a financial risk to the company because they would work for the company longer and therefore reduce the impact of the initial training cost of a new pilot. (before anyone starts saying that you have to pay for your own type rating with Jet2 I’m talking about the extra costs of employing a low hour-ed pilot over a guy with 2000hrs on type, i.e. more line training to pass the final line check)

From what I’ve heard and seen, a lot of airlines seem to write off guys in their late 30’s, but it’s not the case with everyone. From what I can remember as well, FlyBe seemed to have the same attitude as Jet2. When I went to these talks was over a year ago, so things might have changed, but I’m sure that not all airlines are as short sighted as easyjet when it comes to age.

[six-sixty]

I don’t think you’ll get much mileage out of using the discrimination card against an airline. I’m guessing their argument would be that, although they place an age restriction on new applicants, it is only a restriction for a low hour entry and most companies could easily demonstrate that they employ a wide range of age of pilots (i.e. in easyjet I’m sure that there are loads of ex BA guys over 55).

That's still descrimination. Low hours <33 = OK Low hours >33 = Not OK.

In so far as I am physically and mentally capable, I am supposed to enjoy the same rights of access to work as everybody, regardless of age, gender, religion blah blah. I am a qualified commercial pilot. This therefore is a significant barrier to my "right" to a career of my choice, therefore to be consistent with the prevailing culture (which I already said is bonkers) anomalies like this shouldn't exist.

[go_solo]

Hey 6-60,

I put a bit of info on the thread below re the age discrimination legislation. Scroggs comments are quite accurate both on the "young and agile" (although there is also the inverse correlation of age with experience to factor in) and the difficulties in proving discrimination.

I would say that you will probably see a change or removal of the age limit, HOWEVER that is not going to resolve the underlying problem of "age-ism"....sorry! :ugh:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=235439&page=3

[scruggs]

Just out of interest and as ever, apologies if it's been answered already.

When the new age discrimination laws come in, will this mean:

A) The upper age restriction of 23.5 for the RAF will be removed?

B) The upper age restriction of 26 for the RN will be removed?

Cheers,
eP.

[Groundloop]

I think you'll find that the armed forces are exempt from quite a lot of laws.

[boogie-nicey]

I doubt this will have any impact on the Armed Services. They can claim (and quite righfully in my mind) that they don't desire but need only the 'optimum'. Employment law or no employment law.

However what gets me about employment law relating to the issue of age is that people want it to change just so long as it includes them in the recruitment 'net'. Would they also be comfortable seeing other employment laws allowing overseas crew to openly apply for UK and/or European jobs? Would you like to see yet more people who wish to caught in the recruitment 'net' by insisting that all female pilots be allowed excessive maternity leave as and when they need it or for the right to work no further than 30 miles from their home ..... Where does it all end.

I agree I resent the pathetic age-ism demonstrated by the airline industry as it seems so short sighted and unfair especially when most of the recruiting/training Captains are themselves no spring chickens yet feel enpowered to tell others what they wouldn't wish to hear themselves.

It was even worse before the LCC turned up with 'quick fill' recruitment tendencies and not the long drawn out process of years ago dominated by the legacy carriers. The long term solution to this is not in laws (easily circumnavigated) but the extra dynamic and spritey footstep of the industry now that we have the Ryanair and Easyjets in the market. Nowhere near perfect and the above mentioned 2 have significant pitfalls but at least there's something there and some opportunity.

[jamestkirk]

Totally agree.

But, lets go the whole hog and get tanked up, go down to CTC and trash the place. Have a couple of OAT integrated guys who did not get the promised job to drive the getaway car.

We will then get some spray paint and pop into Cranebank. Graffitti "do you want some" on all the simulators (preferably across the inside of the sim screen). That'll make a visual approach a bit tricky.

And lastly, for all those who have had no option but to pay for a type rating: buy some rotting prawns and hide them in the air conditioning units of Ryanair's 737's. We need an engineer for that one as I have forgotten most of my ATPL aircraft general stuff.



People don't seem to undertsand that with us older, modular guys, there is alot going on 'behind the eyes'.

(before anyone comes back with a PC remark:of course, I am joking)

[go_solo]

Boogie-Nicey is correct, the armed forces are exempt from a considerable amount of employment legislation , however as with other discrimination issues they will fall within the Age discrimination legislation.

That said, they will be in a very strong position to objectively justify a maximum age for many roles, due in part to the physical nature of some roles and the demanding training and return of service of others.

This is demonstrated in Australia where they've had age discrimination legislation for a number of years. For interest I've pasted the RAAF Pilot requirements below and we may see something similar, however at present no one knows what the MoD will do:

Applicants must be a minimum of 17 years of age on day of entry.
Applicants will not normally be allowed to enter the ADF until they achieve a minimum of 17 years of age, however they may be able to initiate the application process from 16 years and six months of age, depending upon the capacity of their local recruiting centre.
Based on an economic return of service, the maximum age for Direct Entry (Non-Graduate (or Graduate)) Pilot entry is 43 years of age. However, Air Force has a stated preference for pilot applicants that do not exceed 27.5 years of age at the commencement of Pilot training. Applicants older than 27.5 years of age may be considered for selection if they demonstrate significant potential for pilot training. If unsuccessful for Air Force Pilot selection, applicants may wish to consider Army or Navy Pilot entry.

Cheers

[boogie-nicey]

JamesTkirk, you're right on my friend that sounds like a great idea :E But how's going to get all the bevvies in, oh well where's my wallet? (Ah my wife's got it again .... :) )

But hopefully older/modular chaps can perhaps fund their TR and get their nose ahead of the game like that? Perhaps they can make a positive impression at some aviation recruitment fair/ expo, etc... Anywhere they have a chance to network.

Remember the Captains aren't 20 somethings they're 30+ somethings and as such have a natural inclination towards someone of a more empathetic nature i.e. same age bracket as them.....

Good luck all...:ok:

[duir]

I recently went to a day of interviews with several other bods for an airline job. Everyone there was modular, over thirty and had done some kind of flying(instructing etc) to attain a precious 1000+ hrs. Bloody good on this airline, it restored my faith in peoples ability to look further than the end of their noses in this industry.

Other than these good guys most airlines seem to love the younger integrated people so in a show of solidarity with James T I have decided to do the whole village........(with a flamethrower).:E

[six-sixty]

I have decided to do the whole village........(with a flamethrower).:E

I say we nuke the entire site from orbit. Only way to be sure.

That's really nice of that one airline but I want to see the COMPELLED to be seen to be interviewing and hiring regardless of age. Set tests by all means, let us take them, and if we pass, give us an opportunity.

I'm fine with age limits for the military - personally the speed these things go the upper limit should be probably be 15.

Jeez if I was a lesbian jihadist amputee I'd have polititians falling over themselves to help me.

[catswhisker]

6-60: You need to spend at least £50 grand on an Integrated Inarticulacy course. After that, about £10k on a tripe rating. And then, to stay absolutely bang up-to-date, a Corporate Response Masters.. a snip at £15000. Then, if you're really lucky, your hugely advanced age might be all that's holding you back.

[jb5000]

Yep of course being older and doing instructing etc. means that you *must* be better than the younger guys.

I am more and more amazed at the level of sourness, whingeing and the amount of people with an axe to grind on Pprune.

You guys should apply for the next series of this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/guide/articles/g/grumpyoldmen_999031010.shtml

[excrab]

jb5000

I don't think anyone here has said that they are "better" than younger guys, the point being made is that they should have an equal chance to prove there ability by interview/psochometric test or sim ride of the airlines' choice, rather than be rejected before even talking to anyone.

38 isn't old (although it may appear so at 21). The truth is that some older trainees struggle, as do some younger ones. Whilst initial training may be easier for those who are still in the straight from school to university to cabair/oxford wherever to type rating learning habit, the older candidate with more maturity and life experience might make a better choice for airlines who are looking at commands at about 3000 hrs/4 years from starting ie at age 42 rather than 25. Or maybe not always, of course, as everyone is different.

[ToneTheWone]

Age discrimination does take place, and for anybody who’s been subject to discrimination I feel that they do have a right to feel hacked off. As we all go through life we are all discriminated against, be it on age, sex, religion, race, personality, looks, or even intelligence. It made me laugh that a little while back tat a shop wanted to place an advertisement in a job centre for somebody with a pleasant personality. The job centre said you can’t do that as it discriminates against people who don’t have a pleasant personality!

The airlines do take age into account and I agree that maybe younger candidates are a lower training risk. However there are crap younger candidates as well as crap older guys. But to rule out older candidates before ability has been assessed is in my opinion wrong and very short sighted.

Myself, I’ve got an ATPL with over 750 hours multi-crew turbine time and first time passes in both the GFT and I/R. Yet can I get an interview?

One airline I recently applied to asked for a minimum of 1000 hours turbine time. Needless to say they didn’t offer me an interview, using this as the reason. However I know for a fact that they were interviewing candidates with far less experience than myself. Maybe it was my training background, my lack of hair or my age. I don’t know and I’m past caring. The lesson here is that airlines can easily get around age discrimination. By setting certain criteria such as minimum hours, then using this are a reason for rejecting people, but at the same time taking on people without the hours.

Happy days indeed:ok:

P.S. Yes I am a self-confessed grumpy old man. It gives me a great amount of pleasure and I wouldn't change even if I could:*

[boogie-nicey]

If older candidates are a training risk then why would they continue to discriminate against the older chap who has a TR (self funded of course) and time on type too? The training has been undertaken and the so called risk diminished or maybe they are quite simply prejudiced because the older employed pilots don't want anyone of their age rocking the boat and failing to fall under the spell of the God like image of the Senior Captains and Chief Pilot.

[brownbox]

I personally think that anyone who can't recite a good portion of any of the 'Alien' movies doesn't have the right qualities for any sort of pilot!!!

Anyway as an old fart myself and making my first attempt at ATPL exams (currently Chartered Engineer @ 39) I feel that I am going to end up doing a type rating of some sort (A320??) Would the airline recruitment boys raise their eyebrows and be a bit interested d'you think, if say at interview stage I agreed to pay for my own line training??? ( say out of my wages!!!)

Just as you guys would say 'trying to get an edge' if it's possible in this game.

Don't have much choice - want out of engineering.:ugh:

[elevengflyer]

brownbox
I wish you all the best of luck. As far as raising an eyebrow by offering to pay for line training - I think it would barely raise anything and it might even be expected that you do this anyhow (considering your grand old age).
The other problem is even getting to the interview stage without some serious investment in order to try and raise the eyebrow in the first place.
That said, I followed my dream and I was over the hill (well, over 30) too. I don't regret it at all, although I wish I had a bit more spare cash!

[brownbox]

I take it that elevengflyer that you finally got that elusive position in the RHS. Yes I wouldn't mind even if the airline expected me to pay for the line training. Would maybe have to weigh up the options though 'cos I definitely would be pushed to fork out too much doh ray me if the prospcts were TP hours with low wages at the end of it. I think I would speak for a lot of older 'wannabes' that I if I got the job I fancied I would probably remain in it for the long term. In the same breath I suppose 15-20 years to go IS a career and I've never been afraid to move around. No doubt when I flunk the ATPLS in Sept I'll knuckle down and wise up.

[jamestkirk]

And HELLO DUIR, hope your well.

Just to say to jb500.. about us being sour, grumpy and incontinent.

Reading through these threads you will see alot of older modular guys and girls who are in a frustrating situationa nd actually having a laugh about it. That takes some character and does not includes the attributes you listed in your thread.

[darkbarly]

CTC are not an employer and are unlikely to come under this new legislation, methinks. A convenient hoop for airlines being fed this way...