CPL Cross-Country Qualifying Flight

[Keygrip]

I was presented with a new twist on the question of the 300 mile CPL cross-country qualifying flight. Wondered what you would vote for - based on your interpretation of Lasors 2006.

D 1.2 (D) JAR-FCL CPL(A) MODULAR COURSE FLYING TRAINING/EXPERIENCE REQUIREMENTS

“20 hours cross country flight time as Pilot-in-command, including, a VFR cross-country flight of at least 540km (300nm) in the course of which full-stop landings at two aerodromes different from the aerodromes of departure shall be made.”

Imagine two scenarios.

First one: Depart airfield A at 0740 on day 1 and fly 44 miles East to airfield B arriving at 0845. Depart again at 0900 and return to A. 88miles flown and 2 hrs 5 minutes logged.

Have a four hour break then depart A at 1400, fly 131 miles South to airfield C, arriving at 1555. Depart C at 1620 and fly 145 miles further South to airfield D, arriving at 1815.

Total for the day (sunup to sundown) is 364 miles but did include a return to base airfield part way through. The A-C-D flight being only 276 miles.

Does it count as qualifying?

Second scenario: Same A-C-D flight on day one. Remember, departed A at 1400, arrived at D at 1815 - having flown 276 miles.

Pre-planned night stop - so off to the hotel for a beer and a kip.

Next morning, depart D at 0900 and go back, via C, to A, arriving at 1315. Another 276 miles flown. Total within last 24 hours was 552 miles but did include a night stop.

Does it count as qualifying?

[EGBKFLYER]

:ok: :D That's a good one. would love to know what the CAA think (bet they don't know either!;) ).

To add to the confusion - if you define a flight as starting when the a/c moves for the purpose of take-off and finishing when it stops for the purpose of disembarkation (or whatever it is), wouldn't getting out anywhere mean it wasn't a x-country flight but x-country flights and therefore wouldn't qualify?

I vote that both your scenarios qualify, for what it's worth.

[BigGrecian]

My interpretation is that Scenario A is acceptable.

However, I am pretty sure Scenario B is not acceptable - I recall seeing a training memo in December of 05 (or whatever they are called) stating that the only reason over night qualifying cross countries would be accepted was if the stop was due to unforseen technical reasons.

Someone at an FTO in the UK would have to confirm the latter - or anywhere - I assume they forward the memos to all FTOs??

Safe Flying.

[Linda Mollison]

Keygrip

To answer the second part of your question first - no it does not count if you do not do it all on one day (unless there is a valid reason why you did not do so, e.g. weather, tech problems).

I checked this with the CAA last year and I was told that the one day rule had been implemented early last year although the change has not been included in (e.g.) LASORS.

The first part of your question is not so clearcut. The rule does say "a cross country flight in the course of which full stop landings at two airfields other than the airfield of departure shall be made". In theory, your example would therefore be valid, but I do not think I would take that risk!

Linda

[powdermonkey]

I would say neither,
Certainly trip one does not seem to qualify. First journey could be seen as any cross country flight and totally independent. Second journey comes close but short of the 300nm.
My interpretation is a round trip, taking off from A, going to B and C then back to A and must be 300nm +.
I don't know about the night stop.....
I'm off to do mine in a few weeks, weather permitting, but will do it in a single day and NOt return to base until 300nm have been flown.
Still, it all counts doesn't it:ok:

[What's a Girdler]

Here's one, is the 300nm trip valid if you land at 3 different airfields in one day covering more than 300nm?

[Andy_R]

Two "stupid" questions:

1. Does the flight have to end back at A, or will a flight from A - B - C of more than 300 nm count?

2. Do the airfields have to be within the UK, or would a trip to France count?

[LD Max]

As they say... "the devil is in the detail". For what it's worth, this is my humble opinion.

In answer to "Andy R" and "What's a Girdler" - I wouldn't worry about exceeding the requirements. So long as the requirement of at least 300nm is satisfied, and the trip includes two full stop landings at aerodromes different from the aerodromes of departure, then the requirements are satisfied - wherever those aerodromes may be, and whether or not you eventually return to the point of origin.

I think the way to interpret this is to look at the phraseology.

Define "the aerodromes of departure".

Note the use of a plural, "aerodromes". This means that each take-off, (a: Point of Origin, b: Aerodrome 1, c: Aerodrome 2 etc), is, (or becomes), an "aerodrome of departure". So all your subsequent landings, (on this cross-country flight (singular) of at least 300nm), must be at a different aerodrome to any of the ones (plural) you have previously departed from.

This rules out Scenario 1 from KeyGrip's Question, since the cross country included a landing at the point of origin, which was a previous point of departure for the sortie. So I would support "PowderMonkey's" view that this in practice means a "round trip", although I would say it is optional whether the airborne section of the return to base leg is included in the 300nm total or not.

I would have thought Scenario 2 (with the overnight stop) would be ruled out mainly for one and potentially two reasons...

a) There is no such thing as Night Time VFR in JAA world, (albeit there is in FAA land), so for qualifying as "a VFR cross-country flight" (singluar - meaning a single sortie), they could eliminate any time logged as "Night" as not satisfying the "VFR" requirement for JAA purposes. Now the times KeyGrip gave, would not in themselves imply any night flight, but then how can a single VFR cross-country sortie be said to continuous throughout the hours of darkness, with the plane sat on the ground?

This is not to say, however, that a Sortie from A-B-C which satisfies the requirments in total, could not include a night stop at C before returning to A in the morning. That should be valid.

b) Even if the whole trip was conducted in a single day under VFR, having flown 276nm from A-C-D does not (obviously) satisfy the 300nm requirement. The trip then continues back to A via C. If, as KeyGrip says, C was 145 miles from D, and a landing were made there on the way back, then I would say the requirements would be fulfilled.

But if we change the scenario slightly, and move C to less than 24 miles from D (say A-C = 256 and C-D = 20, total still = 276), then Landing again at C on the way back would invalidate the requirement: "...300nm in the course of which... (land) ...at an aerodrome different to any of the aerodromes of departure".

[BigGrecian]

This is not to say, however, that a Sortie from A-B-C which satisfies the requirments in total, could not include a night stop at C before returning to A in the morning. That should be valid.

As stated above night stops are not valid.
And as stated by Linda Scenario 1 is technically valid but I wouldn't if I were you...:hmm:

[kiwiman]

I would have thought Scenario 1 would be out too - the flight should be completed under a single plan and I would have thought the four hours on the ground would have prevented that happening due to the currency requirements relating to briefings and notifications etc.

[BigGrecian]

Well no - what happens if you stop for lunch? - most airfields have Wx, NOTAM facilities. Don't over read into it - yes there are some airmanship considerations but all that matters is what's in the docs - and although its a loose translation of the regs it still abides by them - but again I wouldn't recommend it!

[Noggin]

The JAA requirement eminates from ICAO Annex 1:

20 hours of cross-country flight time as pilot-incommand
including a cross-country flight totalling not
less than 540 km (300 NM) in the course of which
full-stop landings at two different aerodromes shall be
made;

The CAA accepts a series of flights conducted in the course of a "day" or a 24-hour period, that total or exceed 540 Km (300 nm) (540Km is 294 miles), that conduct fullstop landings at two aerodromes other than the point of departure. Anything else is irrelevant.

[powdermonkey]

I still maintain that Keygrips scenario 1 does not qualify, these will be seen as two separate sorties, neither of which meets the requirements.
Keep it simple guys: depart home base, travel to B, STOP, have tea/refuel etc. Depart B, travel to C, STOP, more tea/food etc. Depart C and go back to original departure point. All in same day, cover 300nm +, must be done in the airspace you are training in ( ie, I cannot cross the Scottish FIR, must be done in Irish airspace only from what I have been told).
Simple..but long and boring.......bring another PPL with you?:ok:

[Julian]

So if what Noggin says is true (and dont have books with me as at work so cant confirm!) then if a '24hr period' is acceptable then you could have an overnight stop and be within the rules. Can anyone confirm?

Have to say, I was always under the impression that it had to be done in the same day.

Another thing to remember is that it is 'point-to-point distance' between the airfields, that is if you have two airfields say 50miles apart, you could not put a dog leg in your flight plan to make it 100miles.

Julian.

[pilgrim flyer]

Keep it simple guys: depart home base, travel to B, STOP, have tea/refuel etc. Depart B, travel to C, STOP, more tea/food etc. Depart C and go back to original departure point. All in same day, cover 300nm +, must be done in the airspace you are training in ( ie, I cannot cross the Scottish FIR, must be done in Irish airspace only from what I have been told).
Simple..but long and boring.......bring another PPL with you?:ok:

Ermm, did mine in the US of A, took off at A, landed at B, had lunch then went to C, had a can of coke then on to D and pitched me tent. D was Key West, did the flight on a Christmas Eve, which beat the one before - xmas shopping in Coventry under a stationary occluded front...

And my point? Well he first is to enjoy it and have a bit of an adventure. Also not sure that the flight has to be in one country/FIR to qualify (allthough this one was) - where is this stated?

As an aside the return flight was broken by a night stop in Naples due wx, so timing is important.

PF

[EGBKFLYER]

Powdermonkey - my qualifier was partly outside UK airspace - maybe the Irish have different rules? I don't see anything in LASORS that says you have to remain in your 'training' airspace.

[OpenCirrus619]

I can definitively say the A-B-C approach is acceptable. For my 300 I did Cumbernauld-Denham-Sandown (stayed overnight at Sandown).

OC619

[TheOddOne]

It'd be a very great pity to miss out on getting your licence just because of a technicality over the x-country!

I'm with pilgrim flyer, here. Plan a flight that's a bit of an adventure, pick a really good wx day, take a companion to share the pleasure with, keep it simple, in excess of the requirement.

I did Denham-Bodmin-St. Just-Rowborough-Dunkeswell-Denham. Nearly 8 hours in a low-horse Rallye! Of course, at the time I didn't KNOW I was doing the qualifying, it was just a big day out as an early PPL trip.

OpenCirrus619,

Quite a challenge, doing Cumbernauld-Denham! Not the easiest place to find, straight off.

Cheers,
TheOddOne

[powdermonkey]

EGBK- so I was told by FTO, but between them and IAA they don't have much of a clue, so I may have been given the wrong info!.....more than likely in fact:confused:

[What's a Girdler]

Did mine last Summer, Blackbushe-Leicester-Connington (lunch)-Lydd- Blackbushe, 304nm exactly, 4.1 Hours airbourne! Connington - Lydd leg was challenging, routing directly beteen Stansted and Luton!

[Julian]

I did my CPL QXC from Long beach > Mexican Border (Think its called Brown Field but make sure you land right side of the border or else you have to do some fast talking to men with large amounts of firearms pointed at you!!!) > Palm Springs > McClellan Palomar > Long Beach.

Took most of day but we didnt exactly rush it and certainly something a bit different for the log book!

Julian.

[OpenCirrus619]

OpenCirrus619,

Quite a challenge, doing Cumbernauld-Denham! Not the easiest place to find, straight off.

Not as difficult as perhaps it seems..... At the time I was based at Denham flying the C172 from The Pilot Centre (http://www.egld.com/tpc/). I was on a 3 day "birthday present to myself" :E :
Day 1: Denham-Retford-Cumbernauld
Day 2: Cumbernauld-Denham-Sandown
Day 3: Sandown-Denham

OC619

[Andy_R]

Anybody want to clarify the crossing of FIR boundaries?

Would Shoreham - Troyes - Cannes count for example?

[BigGrecian]

Yes, it would count.
All you have to do is meet those requirement - countries, FIR boundries irrelevant - just do exactly what it says on the tin. (NB Bare in mind the fact it must be completed in one day has yet to be added to LASORS.)
No need to over complicate the issue!:}

[1711]

Hello everyone! My first day of Pprune membership! Nice to jump in with a bang because this thread refers to my flight. And, I'm pleased to say that the CAA have given the nod to both scenarios! Wahoo!! Whether you think it right or not in the absence of any "caselaw" (for want of a better phrase) clarifying things in detail, subjective assumptions we all make in reading a piece of text can be argued either way. In fairness, I did cover over 600 miles in 24 hours (one end of Florida to the other - and back!!) which is far more flying than what most do for a qualifier. I deal with law books and rules all day in my job and, if I may be so bold as to offer some advice to all; read only the text and do not allow any opinions or subjective interpretation to creep in. Remember - "Everything is permitted except that which is specifically written as not permitted". Keep smiling. :-)

[Keygrip]

1711 bet me to it - but, Yes, even before I posted on here, the UK CAA had agreed to both scenarios.

The "done in one day" of which Linda speaks in message 3 (?) is, so they say, a "continuous period of 24 consecutive hours" (as per a professional duty day in a flight time limitation sheme) - so both scenarios counted as acceptable.

They did say that the two flights didn't necessarily settle nicely with the spirit of the "legislation" - but did settle within the spirit of the purpose of the exercise - experience as pilot in command of a 300 mile cross country VFR flight.

[BIG MISTER]

600 miles and still time for a pasta suppa at Capone's ! ! ! :}

<<edit: With Bunny June and Miss Jewel. Sweet!! OK, fair play - you made I larf, you did. >>

[umbongo]

probably been asked before. tried a search, but no joy....

I understand that you need 50 hours cross country before starting the IR.

What constitutes cross country flight? (the CAAs definition at any rate) do you have to land away, be out of gliding range of your home base, cross the international dateline - what is it??

Got lots of flying which is called 'local' in my book but which could equally well be called a 'navex' or whatever...

thanks in advance!

[kentflyer]

umbongo

Others may be able to correct me if I am mistaken

But I seem to recall under the CAA that any flights further than
3nm from the airfield can be counted as cross country.

[FlyingForFun]

Kentflyer is correct.
FFF
--------------

[coodem]

Do you need to land at another airfield for it to count? If not, how do you proove you were away. I often take off, do around 100nm and turn back.

I don't pay landing charges where I am based.

[FlyingForFun]

No requirement to land away, and no way realistically of proving whether a flight was x-country or not. The requirement for 3nm basically means everything other than circuits.

As long as what you claim for x-country seems to fit in with your general level of experience, it won't be a problem. On the other hand, if you claim 100 hours total time and 90 hours x-country, it will raise some eyebrows as to whether you really only ever did 10 hours of circuits.

FFF
-------------

[Whopity]

It really comes down to what you write in your log book. A to B is X ctry, any flight that leaves the airfield and goes somewhere is X-ctry.

The 3 mile definition in the ANO is to set limits on the privileges of an AFI or FI(R) in that they are not allowed to authorise a student on their first solo cross country i.e. a flight more than 3nm from the airfield. It has no other meaning beyond that. At some airfields circuits are bigger than that!

[BillieBob]

NPA-FCL 31 introduces a JAA definition for cross-country as "A flight between a point of departure and a point of arrival following a pre-planned route using standard navigation procedures". Presumably, for any licences and ratings issued after NPA 31 is adopted the CAA will only count flights that meet this definition towards the cross-country requirements.

[Mercenary Pilot]

Im trying to find some information regarding CPL X-country qualifying flights. LASORS refers me to JAA-FCL1.

As far as im aware JAA will only allow access to their documents for a (large) fee.

Is this correct? If I need access to any of the documents covering legal requirements set under JAR I have to pay a fee?!? :confused:


Okay, as for the question.

at least 540km (300 nm)
In the course of which full-stop landings at two
Aerodromes different from the aerodromes of
Departure shall be made;

I believe this has to be done in a day, but what is the definition of a "day" for the flight to count as a qualifier? Is it a 24 hour period or does it have to be done on the same calendar date? If this has been covered elsewhere, can someone post me the link (I couldn’t find what I was looking for)

Cheers Guys (and Gals)

:ok:

[Aim High]

JAR-FCL section 1 is free

http://www.jaa.nl/publications/section1.html

section 2 costs or contact a friend

There is no mention that it needs to be on the same day in JAR-FCL 1

... 20 hours of cross-country flight as pilot-in-command including a VFR cross-country flight totalling at least 540 km (300 NM) in the course of which full stop landings at two different aerodromes from the aerodrome of departure shall be made ...

[Mercenary Pilot]

Thanks for that, LASORS refered me to FCL1 1.125 for the "definition", which I think is maybe in section 2.

including a VFR cross-country flight totalling at least 540 km (300 NM) in the course of which full stop landings at two different aerodromes from the aerodrome of departure shall be made

This seems open to interpretation...If you flew 150 miles, landed, had a few days holiday in your destination and then flew back. Would that count?

What about if you flew to your 150 mile destination stayed a few days, did a short sightseeing flight and then flew home....would that count?

[gemini76]

MP,

We recently had a student who could not complete his PPL QXC in one day due to inclement wx at the 2nd airfield. If he had got on with the job instead of hanging around for a couple of hours he would have completed the final leg. Instead, he had to get a taxi home.
However, as no definitive time scale seems to be written anywhere, we contacted Mike Grierson at the CAA's approvals dept to ask if it would be OK for our student to be ferried to his last airfield to complete the final leg of his QXC.
We were advised that the CAA would EXPECT the QXC to be completed within a 24 hour period. The only reason that this has ever been waived was when an aircraft went tech at one of the visiting airfields.
Not an answer to your specific question, but I would advise that you contact the CAA BEFORE setting off if you do not intend to complete the flight within 24 hours.
Regards

76

[neilia]

This is a question that comes up quite regularly - but it seems clear (to me at least) that the spirit of this requirement is that it's intended to be one trip completed in one day. I think attempts to "bend" this rule are just asking for unnecessary trouble, especially when you're going to the time and expense of doing all the other work for a CPL.

[BillieBob]

Section 1 of each of the JAA requirements is available at no cost on the JAA website, this Section contains all of the 'requirements'. Section 2 contains the Acceptable Means of Compliance (AMC) and Interpretive and Explanatory Material (IEM) and for that you have to pay (a considerable amount).

If you are referred to a 'JAR' (e.g. JAR-FCL 1.125), it will be in Section 1 and available at no charge on the JAA website.

[Mercenary Pilot]

I've checked section 1, however I couldn’t see a "definition" of a cross country flight (Even though LASORS definitely says 1.125).

I've solved the issue now, but if anyone manages to find the actual definition let me know.

Cheers

MP

[hpcock]

A'right Merc

I spoke to the CAA about this when I did my 300nm (540km) X-C. I had the same gripe as you, & they were very helpful in clearing up the situation. The term " In one day" was clearly defined by them as being a period of 24hrs, over one calender day. Therefore, you've got from 0000hrs to 0000hrs to complete the flight.

As you are aware this must include 2 separate land away at different airports/aerodromes.

Hope this helps

HPC :ok: :}

[smith]

D 1.2 (D) JAR-FCL CPL(A) MODULAR COURSE FLYING TRAINING/EXPERIENCE REQUIREMENTS

“20 hours cross country flight time as Pilot-in-command, including, a VFR cross-country flight of at least 540km (300nm) in the course of which full-stop landings at two aerodromes different from the aerodromes of departure shall be made.”



There is no mention of a time period in this and there is no mention of returning to the original departure airport. Therefore a week long trip could count or even a one way flight with two stops would count.

[BigGrecian]

There is no mention of a time period in this and there is no mention of returning to the original departure airport. Therefore a week long trip could count or even a one way flight with two stops would count.

Smith, as noted elsewhere in this thread, there IS a time limitation as shown by conversations with the CAA. The CAA also issued a memo which was sent to the FTOs regarding this. It must be completed within a 24 hour period.

LASORS is NOT the definitive document or legislation regarding regulations. (unlike the FARs) They come from the ANO etc etc.

[corsair]

Meanwhile back in the real world, it's how it's logged that counts. I flew with a friend on his 300 mile cross country. It was over a leisurely three days starting in EIDW and took in Edinburgh, Blackpool and the IOM. Note Powdermonkey it wasn't exactly in Irish airspace. He logged it as happening on the same day. He's now a Captain in Aer Lingus, perhaps I should inform them and the IAA that he's just a fake. I just happen to think his flight gained him more and better experience than my own 300 mile simple exercise which followed the letter of the law and proved nothing more than that I can file a flight plan and keep a course on a nice day.

In fact I often wonder just how many 'Parker pen' qualifying cross countries there are out there?

The rule is rather archaic and was obviously put in place to avoid the scenario of pilots qualifying for their commercial in spite of barely leaving the vicinity of their home airfield.

But bureaucrats love their rules and all their pettifogging details. Gawd save us from them all.

[smith]

there IS a time limitation as shown by CONVERSATIONS with the CAA.

I'd prefer something to be written in black and white than overhearing a conversation, as you say there are memo's sent out by the CAA but in my opinion an official publication (ie LASORS) should be more definitive than a memo.

[2close]

During what time frame does the QXC have to be done?

Last year I flew a number of flights that would qualify, e.g. Swansea - Sleap - Redhill - Swansea or Swansea - Northampton - Redhill - Southend - Swansea and the other week I flew Swansea - Redhill - Old Sarum - Redhill - Swansea (6.1 hours that one)

These would all be qualifying flights, however, as I will not be undertaking the actual CPL course until early next year would they still be valid?

I suppose the question asks whether private flights, not flown as a supervised part of a CPL course, count?

2close

[chrisbl]

This is quite interesting. If you plan to do the FAA commercial as well as the JAR it is worth bearing in mind that the FAA require you to do the trip SOLO and that you must land at a point at least 250nm (in a straight line) from your starting point which in practice will give a trip of about 550-600 miles as an out and return.

When I did mine, I managed a trip which would meet both the JAR and FAA requirements just in case. (it works out cheaper anyway than doing two trips).The differences are subtle but they are substantial.
It does means doing the whole trip on your own and that is more challenging.

[Capt. Vilo]

I have read LASORS and am a little confused with the requirement, Does the trip have to be...

A-B-C or A-B-C-A ?

LASORS say's "two landings away from your departure airfield" but does this mean you have to return to your departure airfield or not :confused:

Thanx for your help

Vilo

[potkettleblack]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=237371

[tommyh7]

hello, im going for my CFI tomorrow, not that that is really relevant but it would be nice to know for the checkride anyway, but what i don't know and can't find out in the FARs anywhere is what qualifies as cross country (FAA here) now for the purpose of checkrides it's 50 miles plus to qualify for cross country, but an examiner i did a checkride with once read out of the FAR that it is from one airport to another, but i spoke to him the other day and he said no that was 6 years ago, but he read this out 6 months ago, nob! anyway so can anybody clear this up, cos it would be nice if it's airport to airpot as that gives me another 50 hours, only reply if you really know what you're talking about, no offence to the guessers, cheers

[High Wing Drifter]

I found this in Section A of LASORS:
'Cross-country flight' means any flight during the course
of which the aircraft is more than 3 nautical miles from
the aerodrome of departure.

[BlueRobin]

LASORS is for rules surrounding UK-issued licences and not the US. ;)

[High Wing Drifter]

Oh well, tommyh7's attempts to put off guessers is likely to fail if I don't even bother to read the question :O

soz!

[Hour Builder]

XC in USA is a flight from point A to B (with landing), where straight line distance from A to B is 50NM +

HB

[BlueRobin]

Can you quote an authoritative source on that, HB? ;) ;)

[High Wing Drifter]

I became curious and found this:
(3) Cross-country time means—

(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (b)(3)(ii) through (b)(3)(vi) of this section, time acquired during flight—

(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;

(B) Conducted in an aircraft;

(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and

(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements (except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private pilot certificate (except for a powered parachute category rating), a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under §61.101 (c), time acquired during a flight—

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

(iii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for a sport pilot certificate (except for powered parachute privileges), time acquired during a flight conducted in an appropriate aircraft that—

(A) Includes a point of landing at least a straight line distance of more than 25 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(B) Involves, as applicable, the use of dead reckoning; pilotage; electronic navigation aids; radio aids; or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

(iv) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for a sport pilot certificate with powered parachute privileges or a private pilot certificate with a powered parachute category rating, time acquired during a flight conducted in an appropriate aircraft that—

(A) Includes a point of landing at least a straight line distance of more than 15 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(B) Involves, as applicable, the use of dead reckoning; pilotage; electronic navigation aids; radio aids; or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

(v) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for any pilot certificate with a rotorcraft category rating or an instrument-helicopter rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges, in a rotorcraft, under §61.101(c), time acquired during a flight—

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 25 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

(vi) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an airline transport pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating), time acquired during a flight—

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

(B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.

(vii) For a military pilot who qualifies for a commercial pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating) under §61.73 of this part, time acquired during a flight—

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

(B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.

From here:http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=bafe9326926a44813442d25c07ff79b1&rgn=div8&view=text&node=14:2.0.1.1.2.1.1.1&idno=14

Check ride requirements in other FARs like 61.101 for PPL

[tommyh7]

well cheers for those who didnt really know but had a stab anyway, and thankyou (seriously) high wing drifter, thats what i got read to me by an examiner who now claims that that is obselete, where did you get this info? what FAR is it? and is it current?

[Hour Builder]

see i was right :-)

[scroggs]

Tommy, if you don't want guesses or help from unqualified contributors, then take your question to the FAA - the only unquestionable authority on the matter.

Scroggs

[Hour Builder]

If the recent comments were directed towards me, it wasnt a guess, and I didnt have a stab at it :ugh: I posted my reply at 11pm last night and wasnt about to go through the FAR's.
I passed my FAA IR recently and had to have 50 hours cross country, so I found out what the FAA defined as XC, and answered the question in hand, which was a simplified version of what high wing pasted after.

HB

[Julian]

Tommy,

By chance your query was a topic of last weeks AOPA email newsletter.
See below.

Julian.


==> EXPERT ADVICE <==

FLIGHT TIME: THE FINER POINTS OF LOGGING CROSS-COUNTRIES
You can log cross-country time anytime you land at an airport other than
your point of departure, regardless of the distance between those points,
according to FAR 61.1. But a closer look at the regulation reveals three
more ways to log cross-countries. If you want to apply cross-country time
toward a private or commercial pilot certificate or instrument rating,
you can only count those flights in which you landed at an airport more
than 50 nautical miles straight-line distance from your departure point.
Now, let's say you are applying for an airline transport pilot certificate.
Then you can count any cross-country flight that was greater than 50 nm
straight-line distance from your departure airport, regardless of where
you landed. The cross-country rule changes yet again when applying time
toward a sport pilot certificate: Then you only have to land at an airport
25 nm straight-line distance from the departure airport. Makes perfect
sense, right? To learn more about the finer points of logging time, AOPA
encourages you to contact its Pilot Information Center (800/USA-AOPA) and
check out its online subject report
( http://www.aopa.org/members/files/topics/logbooks.html ).

[Superpilot]

A mate is contemplating doing his 300nm CPL Qualifier trip (The one required before one can commence the CPL) using two airfields in France. He will be departing and arriving from Elstree. Is this acceptable?

[LFS]

No problem with that. provided it meets the requirements i.e. 300nm and land at 2 airfields other than point of departure then it is acceptable.

[Callsign Kilo]

I think there is also a requirement for the route to be the one that is most direct i.e. not the one which takes you 50nm off track so you can dip the wings over Auntie Margaret's house. Saying that, it is probably pretty obvious to suggest that even though the most direct route must be taken, things like restricted areas, danger zones and Class A airspace should be avoided! :p

I could also recommend keeping all logs, flight plans, notams, landing fee invoices, fuel bills and hire documents after the flight - just incase someone questions it. I doubt they would, but who knows....

Enjoy, I certainly did with mine!

[Hour Builder]

dont worry about the CAA asking for that stuff. just make sure there are 3 entries in your logbook all on the same day, with 2 airfields other than point of departure, with a total time of at least 3 hours give or take, thats all they'd look for.

[Callsign Kilo]

I agree with hour builder, it is unlikely that the caa will ask for that, however I would still keep it all anyway

[lilpilot]

Tommy,

It's FAR Part 61.1 (b)(3)(ii)
for your purposes of meeting aeronautical experience in the US the 50NM will always apply

[philltowns]

Hello,

Just had a few questions on logbooks.

1/ The first is regarding X-C country flights. LASORS states that a "Cross-Country flight means any flight during the course of which the aircraft is more than 3 nautical miles from the aerodrome of departure."

I only just noticed this, and am chuffed as I was about to do several extra navs to make up my 20hrs X-C requirement for CPL, thinking that many of my previous flights didn't count. The fact they do saves me a lot of time and money. Which is nice!

I understand (although cant quote) that the FAA definition involves landing at a different airfield at least 50nm away.

I did a JAR PPL at a US school back in 2001, and was wondering if I should log those flights using the JAR definition or the FAA definition. I would assume the JAR, but want to make sure, although I haven't a clue where to look for the answer.


2/ LASORS states that you can log a succesful flight test with any JAA/CAA examiner, as PICUS. Would this be the case for a checkride, i.e. when planning to hire from a flight school for the first time? If not, what would the flight be logged as? P/UT?

3/ Is there any requirement to use the word 'Self' in the Name of PIC logbook column for solo flight, or can you use your surname?

Cheers

[balboa]

yeh I've always wondered with varying answers whether the successful general flight test for PPL can count as p1?

[Congested Airspace]

Hey Philltowns.

According to FAR 61.1(b)(3)(ii)(B) .... for the purpose of meeting the aeronautical requirements, for a private pilot certificate (FAA), cross country times means - "a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure."

If you were training for, did the checkride with a JAA certified examiner and received a JAA license then I would agree with you in that you would most likely note it accordingly in your logbook. My FAA PPL checkride was noted as PIC.

[FlyVMO]

Im dealing with the same puzzle, I need 50 xc PIC prior to converting my FAA IR to the JAR, to complete the fATPL. I got the following as an answer directly from the CAA:
"Under former national arrangements we defined the definition of a
cross-country flight for the purposes of gaining a PPL within CAP53. The
cross-country definiion that you are referring to is that within Schedule 8
of the ANO but only really applies to the Instructor rating. JAR-FCL 1 at
Amendment 7 will introduce a new definition of a cross-country flight
comparable with our former CAP 53 definition as follows:-
Cross-Country
'A flight between a point of departure and a point of arrival following a
pre-planned route using standard navigation procedures.'

Whilst we have not yet adopted this, this should be the definition that we
have previously accepted under national arrangements.
I hope that this answers your enquiry."
I don't know quite what that means, but thats what they are using....

[Pazza1]

Hello there!!
the time has come now in my hour building to think about doing my 300nm nav run for my cpl licence issue.
I was wondering if any of your guys/girls knew if i could do this over 2 days, or does it have to be done in 1 day?
I will be flying from Cardiff, going over to Ireland, staying there a night, flying to another airport in Ireland, and then back to Cardiff.
Would the CAA accept this or not??
Any advice welcome

Cheers, Craig

[philltowns]

No, I think it all has to be done in the one day, unless there was valid reason not to... weather, tech problems, etc...

[2close]

That is the word that goes around......HOWEVER, neither Lasors nor JAR FCL 1.155 specify that it must be done on the same day.

What if the trip was done overnight?

I think the test of 'what is reasonable' needs to be applied.

If you left Cardiff at 1800 and flew to Waterford, then later flew up to Dublin or Belfast and returned directly to Cardiff the following morning arriving at Cardiff by 0600 I would have thought that would be perfectly reasonable and acceptable. It would in fact be more demanding than carrying out the same trip, leaving Cardiff at 0600 and finishing at 2200 on the same day.

On the licence application form you have to state the date of the QXC. The CAA officer handling the application will check your log book on that date. If it showed the above I couldn't see it being a problem.

The people to ask are........drum roll........the CAA!!!

[BigGrecian]

Pazza1
I wish you would have done a search where this question has been answered multiple times.
LASORS is not the legal document.
There was a notice sent round to all UK CAA schools stating that the CPL Qualifying trip must be completed over one day.
At the discretion of the CAA due to technical reasons only will they accept a 2 day Cross country.
In short, just do it on one day.

[2close]

Brakes on, big fella,

It's not my question, therefore, it's not my place to do the search.

You will read from my use of words that I made use of phrases such as 'I think' and 'I would have thought'. That clearly implied that these are my opinions and not statements of hard fact. I would have thought that the closing sentence "The people to ask are the CAA" would have given a clue as to my advice.

However, I stand by my guns and since you point out that the CAA has released a notice (which I haven't seen and have been unable to find on the CAA website so would be very grateful for a link or document name even) I would point out the following, for which I will use your statement that "There was a notice sent round to all UK CAA schools stating that the CPL Qualifying trip must be completed over one day."

The definition of 'day' is a period of 24 hours and has no reference to date:

"The 24-hour period during which the earth completes one rotation on its axis"

It is not a SI Unit but is accepted as such, the actual SI unit being the second.

The ANO does not contain any alternative definition, therefore, any trip that begins and ends within the same period of 24 hours, regardless of whether it is overnight or not would meet the requirements that the trip has been conducted within 'one day'.

I would argue that point black and blue with the CAA and in the absence of production of any LEGAL document showing otherwise I cannot see how they could fail to accept it.

Thanks for bringing this point up - I've found it a handy learning tool.

2close

[BlueRobin]

To be honest, I thought clocking up 300nm might have been a problem, given some of the airspace in the UK but I cracked it. Take a nice day, set course for Wales in uninhibited Class G and land say at Aberporth then perhaps Swansea or another enroute airfield on your way back. Get the sightseeing in and straightline distances go out thw window. I think I clocked up 430nm according to my GPS. With my 196, I can also prove I did it :}

[Keygrip]

Big Grecian...

There was a notice sent round to all UK CAA schools stating that the CPL Qualifying trip must be completed over one day.


Really? Copy please. At least give me the date of the notice and the name and position of the signatory.

[High Wing Drifter]

If the CAA communicated it, then it would (should) be here: http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=list&type=sercat&id=26

[smith]

Here's a scenario, say you take off and fly directly south to an airport 75nm away and land. Then you take off and fly 150nm north to an airport overflying your original field in the process. Finally you take off and fly 75nm south again and land at your home field. Would this count as a CPL XCQ? You will fly 300nm in direct routes but will only ever be 75nm max away from your field?

[BlueRobin]

iirc 300nm and two other aerodromes, track distance (so including dog legs) so yes.

In fact I overflew my home field to get the second aerodrome in.

[BigGrecian]

Keygrip:

Regarding the Training Document number - it isn't on the CAA website for some reason and it didn't even come in on the normal training doc style.
However, when this was discused approximately 7-8 months ago, Linda Mollison - from PAT and a few other schools in the UK all confirmed the existance of such a document.
It often seems that schools over seas are left out of the loop regarding such information. Another prime example is the use of Auto-pilot in the IR, I know from first hand experience that some schools use the standards doc as the reference, but in reality it is slightly different - but no one told us!
It was certainly up on the notice boards at all the schools in Bournemouth I visited but that was over 6 months ago.

[MrHorgy]

I've just done my CPL cross country, in fact looking at my logbook now according to the myriad of definations of days and such it would appear i've done a 1,400nm cross country as well!

Go and do something fun - I went from Barton to Benbecula in Scotland, then back via Cumbernauld for fuel. Thoroughly enjoyable, and about 600 odd miles so it'll count for FAA as well. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me to pick a fight with the CAA, when you can do it within one day anyway.

Horgy

[Linda Mollison]

Big Grecian,

I have never seen anything in writing from the CAA. I was told by my contact at the CAA on the telephone that it had to be done in 24 hours unless there was some valid reason, e.g. aircraft tech problems, which delayed you en-route. He also told me that this was a change to the previous rule.

However, this was me telephoning him for clarification, not him notifying me of a change.

Without being too rude about the CAA (why not!) they are notoriously bad about notifying schools about any changes.

But don't get me started on that one ........

Linda Mollison

[Keygrip]

....and MY contact at the CAA said "Yes, it must be within 24 hours - but NOT all on the same date. Midday one day to midday the next would be perfectly acceptable".

[Birky]

Can anyone define 'cross country' time requirements for starting the UK CPL course? As I understand the US system, you must depart one airfield, fly to and land at another that is at least 50nm away.

Is it the same for the UK CAA?

Thanks

[capt.sparrow]

No its not. As long as your flight is more than 3nm from the airfield / leave the ATZ / dont just bash circuits its all good 'cross country'.

[Birky]

Cap'n Sparrow. Thank you for that. May I ask, where might I find that information on the CAA website, do you know?
Regards
Birky

[MIKECR]

Birky,

You should find it in Lasors. If I remember correctly though, theres actually quite a long thread on this already. Try a search and you should find it. From memory, its something like 'a flight which is carried out from a point of departure to point of arrival using navigation techniques'. The point of arival and departure can effectively be one in the same, as long as you head from the circuit area and do some flying then you should be ok.

[FlyingForFun]

The reference you need is LASORS, Section A, Appendix F, Part B. Download LASORS from http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS_07.pdf and scroll to page 87, where it says:
'Cross-country flight' means any flight during the course of which the aircraft is more than 3 nautical miles from the aerodrome of departure.
Since Appendix F of Section A is simply lifted from Schedule 8 of the ANO, I assume you could find the same text there (which would make it legally enforcable), but I haven't looked.

FFF
--------------

[Keygrip]

define 'cross country' time requirements for starting the UK CPL course

Irrespective of "definitions", I'd be curious to know what ARE the 'cross country' time requirements for STARTING THE UK CPL COURSE.

[Mikehotel152]

In Lasors it says that the flying experience required for CPL issue includes:

"...a cross-country flight totalling at least 540 km (300 nm) in the course of which full-stop landings at two aerodromes different from the aerodromes of departure shall be made."

I take it from the above wording that the cross-country flight does not need to end back at the aerodrome of departure.

Just wondering whether my 330nm flight from Stapleford to Prestwick with a fuel-stop at Gamston (and the return 5 days later) would count?

[GASH !]

Correct, it doesn't need to be back to the same aerodrome. Your flight from Stapleford to Prestwick via Gamston will do it, the return leg doesn't come into it.

Cheers

[Finals19]

The 300nm cross country must be one "flight" with two land aways from the destination aerodrome, done in one day. In other words, as I understand it, you can take off from your home base (say Elstree) fly 300nm as the crow flies (say via Manston, stop Le Touquet, stop Dinard) and that would count. You could return the next day, but the 300 qualifier would be the outbound leg. You can't do 150nm on day one and 150nm on day two.

[smith]

Thread creep, canyou stop at more than 2 aerodromes?

Also do the combined distances of the aeodromes on the route followed have to be > 300nm? A friend of mine said you can fly over a point, not on track to you next aerodrome, then on to the aerodrome. The total distances travelled is > 300nm with the dogleg/diversion but direct track between the aerodromes is <300nm, I disagree but my friend says it is ok.

[Mikehotel152]

Thanks people. :ok:

Actually, come to think of it, we did the return journey non-stop - even without the C182's long-range tanks we would have made it easily.

I will certainly be doing many more long journeys as part of my hour-building, especially as I'm going to South Africa to do a 30 hour (of flying)tour of the country with my Dad. Can't wait for that!!

[Cobalt]

However with such an ambitious flight so soon after gaining your wings, I'm sure you'll log plenty more 'epic' journeys by the time you submit your application for CPL, so choosing which flight to nominate would pose the bigger problem!

That can be surprisingly difficult if you leave it to chance. In the 450 hours before starting my CPL I had several individual legs >300NM, and even more A-B-A return flights on the same day >300NM, but the two qualifiers were A-B-C flights I planned as A-B-A, but where I had to divert to C due to weather on return...

[EpsilonVaz]

Hey there,

Does anyone know if there is a minimum distance between aerodromes? I cannot find anything in Lasors or JAR-FCL :{

Any info would be great!

Thanks,
EpsilonVaz

[philltowns]

As far as I'm aware, you can do, for example, a 2nm leg, and two 149nm legs.