Eagle Airlines checks - sounds scary!!!

[senecarectomy]

I've got a CV in with Eagle but am a bit freaked by reports that heaps of their pilots are failing checks. I'm hearing from those that have gone before me that they range from new line pilots, established line pilots, command upgrades and even captains. It is a bit daunting for me as a wannabe. Is it because they do their checks in the aircraft versus a simulator like the others? I think that I would like to do a check in an aeroplane that I fly everyday instead of a sim which I have heard is harder to fly than the real thing. Origin do their checks in the aircraft without much reported drama. I would love to know what exactly is invlolved in a typical check in the 1900D. I'm still instructing MEIFR and wanna know what I can do to prepare myself in case I get an invite to join them!

I heard from a current Eagle pilot that an Eagle check is like being in an All Black front row. Only those in the scrum get to know what really goes on and the rest are too afraid to ask!!!

Are there any all blacks out there that wanna share? :uhoh:

[Cloud Cutter]

I don't think it's that bad. Quite similar to you're MEIR initial or renewal, but with an emphasis on CRM. As long as you're prepared you should be fine. The main draw back of not having a simulator is we don't get a chance to do refresher training like other airlines, and it's straight into the check, that's the bit that can catch you out. Although as you say, we are flying the aeroplane everyday, it would definitely be preferable to do checks in the sim. A good example is having to deal with the ridiculous amounts of traffic at Hamilton while handling an emergency. In a real emergency you would not have to worry about sequencing number four to the katana etc.

I certainly wouldn't let this put you off applying, just make sure you put in the hard yards when you get there, and ask for help if you need it. Of course, sometimes you just have a bad day on a check, and there's not much you can do about that.

Good luck:ok:

[haughtney1]

Of course, sometimes you just have a bad day on a check, and there's not much you can do about that.


Sounds a lot like me at every check:} :ok:

[mattyj]

I thought the whole idea of a checkride is to make it a bad day!!:} :}

Seriously though, I personally know two Guys, both with over 2500 hoursTT and over 500 Multi IFR who have been cut from line training at EAG in the last 6 months. For the rest of us at around 1200 hrs/200multi with applications in...it sounds pretty daunting!!

In my personal opinion, the only thing that could really prepare a GA pilot for EAG ops, is EAG ops.

[flyby_kiwi]

Wouldnt worry about being a low timer vs. high. Every situation is different but it seems that those who cant adapt adapt from whatever they spent the 2500hrs doing will have thier work cut out.
Company operating procedures are pretty detailed, combine this with someone who is still getting thier head around flying something a bit faster and higher than what they have been doing over the last few years and there will be a problem.
As has been mentioned even the best have thier off days and a sim for recurrent training (like most other airlines) would go alongway in helping. As a low time newbie I wouldnt worry, youll training will see you right just make sure you know the company sops inside out and dont get complacent in whatever your flying now.

[Cloud Cutter]

In general, I think the low time guys find it a bit easier, simply because they are not as set in their ways. It's the old 'teaching an old dog new tricks' thing. It always comes down to the specific person, rather than their experience level, that's why training is provided (and these day, lots of it!) If you took the right pilot with 250 hours and a brand new MEIR, they would have no problems getting through. Whereas some with 3000+ hrs may struggle. Until very recently, it was almost unheard of for anyone to get chopped from eagle, and I don't know if anyone has an explanation for the recent spate. I think it is a function of the 'entry-level' nature of Eagle, which means most new hires don't yet have a proven airline background.

[Kiwi Expat]

I agree with cloud cutter.

The first check to line in a twin turbo prop, in a multi crew environment can be a big step up.

As long as you put the work in and dont upset anyone things will go fine
A good understanding and a high competence in the IFR environment does help a great deal so one can focus on flying the A/C

Remember that the check captain wants to pass you after all the company has only spent $20000 on your training!!! :eek:

its not like GA flight testing folks!!:ugh:

Those i know including myself who put the yards in at the start and kept it up until the final check was over all passed first time.

Thats all there is to it.:ok:

[sum1]

Anybody have an idea of what hours are required to get an initial interview in the current situation?

total, multi, turbine?

cheers :ok:

[distracted cockroach]

Agree with KE...any checkie worth their salt doesn't want to fail you.
I always say that check performance is a reflection on the training department. If too many are failing, either the system is failing the trainee (more likely) and the training captains need to take a close look at themselves, or the trainee is just not up to it (less likely in my opinion, but it does happen):{
For goodness sake, don't let it put you off taking a job with them. It's part of being a professional pilot and you will be putting your licence on the line every 6 months for the rest of your carreer....get used to it!
You know you have turned a corner when you actually see a check as a learning opportunity and an chance to demonstrate your capabilities, rather than a knee trembling, fear fest where the nasty old checkie is out to get you.:eek:
We've all been there, and it takes some longer to get over it than others.
Good luck!:ok:
DC

[haughtney1]

you will be putting your licence on the line every 6 months for the rest of your carreer....get used to it!
You know you have turned a corner when you actually see a check as a learning opportunity and an chance to demonstrate your capabilities, rather than a knee trembling, fear fest where the nasty old checkie is out to get you

Very very wise words cockroach..although perhaps we should tell that to certain "crusty" checkers at CX perhaps??

[NoseGear]

Haughtney, "crusty" checkers at CX, don't be absurd! :E
Quite right with the "get used to it" advice, however there is only one person to fear when it comes to checks at Eagle, and his name is Chopper!! We all know who he is. There was a time when most young NZ pilots wanted to work for Eagle, then along came the chopper:ouch: He has almost single handedly changed Eagle's reputation, and not for the better.:(
Cloud, generally you have good, positive comments, (not at all like mine above:E ) but I really tire at hearing the 250 hour wonder pilot will so much more easily intergrate into a multi crew enviroment easier than a "stuck in their ways" 3000hour old dog! What a crock, I had close to those hours when I broke free of GA and had no problems whatsoever with the training, multi-crew transition, etc etc. And I'm an old dog! The more hours you have, means the more you have seen, which directly equates to what we mean when we say experience. Why do you think our crusty checkers up here lie awake at night thinking up nasties for the next check? Its so if a similar situation ever arises, you will probably have experienced it before, so its more familiar........In other words, you've got experience of this situation. I do believe that is a major failing of Eagle, not having a sim to put guys thru their paces, it is, I believe, the major leap forward in civil aviation safety, apart from the Chopper of course!!
Standing by with my flame retardant undies on..........:ok:
Nosey

[Cloud Cutter]

He is no longer in a checking or training role (by his own choice). Although from what I saw, he was the best check captain we ever had. You have to keep standards high, and if that means people fail, then the standard they were operating at obviously wasn't high enough. I found him very fair and consistent, which is all you can really ask for.

I think you misunderstood what I said about 250 hr vs 3000 hr pilots. They were extreme cases. In general, I agree that the 3000 hr pilot from GA would normally find the transition easier, and be a better candidate. I was making a point about the aptitude of a pilot being an important consideration alongside experience (in response to the statement that several of the trainees who unfortunately haven't made it through recently, were high-time GA drivers). I guess we always lean towards the camp from which we came :}

[Hanz Blix]

Some clairification is required me thinks!

CC- your last comment mate is way off the mark, perhaps you got chopper at the end of his stay! Where he was OK (not knocking the guy:ok: )

For all those worried about the EAG training and chopping relax. I admit it is a bit scary even for line guys/girls to see people getting chopped but how about we start looking at the actual problem, which isn't the training department.

New line F/o's are given 100 sectors MIN to get up to speed they are checked several times along the way to make sure they are coming up to speed before moving onto more indepth training. If they don't make standard they are trained untill they do. At the end you do your check to line which is just like any other airline check (some would say that this first check is the most prepared you will ever be for an EAG check because thats all you have been doing for 3 months). If you pass then congrads welcome aboard see you in 3 months for another check. If not you go back to training for a week or so and do another handling check prior to doing your check to line (the extra handling check is not pass fail) if you fail again your on your bike!:uhoh:

If it gets to the point where you lose your job you have to see it from the companies point of view, they have invested (by now) 4 months of training assests and time into you to get you online and you still cant pass. They are a company which has to make money and sinking $30-40000 into a guy who cant pass over and over dosen't make good business sense or safety!

I'm sure EAG guys would agree with me that its not the training its the interview process which should be finding the problem children before entering the company:eek:

[haughtney1]

New line F/o's are given 100 sectors MIN to get up to speed they are checked several times along the way to make sure they are coming up to speed before moving onto more indepth training.

Eh? 100 sectors? Thats generous.....I got 30 (in my first T/P job) and was told to like it laddie.....
First Jet job and I got 20..not because I was Chuck Yeagar...but because that was all you get before a line check:ooh:

Here I was thinking it was a few circuits...20-30 sectors (a bit of pressure to get up to speed)..and then the check....gawd 100 sectors!! I cant believe it, how cossetted can you get! Not trying to ruffle Eagle feathers here...its just 100 sectors!!

[NoseGear]

I'm sure EAG guys would agree with me that its not the training its the interview process which should be finding the problem children before entering the company
With 100 sectors I should think its not the training! Air NS is mandated to give 75, CAA reg that one, and I felt that was more than quite enough. Next jobs a jet, 20 sectors to get up to speed for the check. Eagle use to give 50 sectors for training and had nowhere near the failure rate they have now, and that was on the Metro as well.

Problem children? I personally know of 5 guys in one round who would have been excellent candidates, all having flown RPT ops with well known GA operators, but one guy was cut because he forgot to bring his report card from school!! None of the others made it either, and of the 3 they did hire, 1 failed, and one was the biggest wayne kerr you ever met! He struggled mightly as well, so I think there is a small fault with the process there, 3 dayer that it is. Guess who was involved there........? As a side note, all 5 went into Air NS and all are doing well, go figure.

CC, quite right, aptitude has a part to play, and so does attitude. If the prospective pilot is willing to study hard, then they should be successful. Perhaps that catches new airline pilots out?
Nosey

[mattyj]

Sure there is some investment in the training of a newbie but there are paying customers in the back..or are they crash test dummies:} :}

[Cloud Cutter]

Yip, 50 was the norm when I started. The 100 they get now is partly because of GPS training, and partly because it was seen as necessary due to the lower experience of pilots coming through.

Nosey, you'll find that all new hire failures of late were very studious, and put in about as much work as you could expect of anyone. I'm not willing to comment further than that.

[NoseGear]

mattyj, don't you want a job there?:E The new pilot is fully trained in the aircraft curtouesy of the sim in Toronto, its line oriented flying they are teaching. The pax are perfectly safe, except perhaps when I was landing!:p
CC, fair comment, I certainly don't expect names, I was suggesting that the "I've made it, its easy from here on in" mindset could be catching some out.
Do you think the experience levels have really dropped? I beg to differ, as you do, but most Eagle pilots have traditionally been low timers, regardless of "era". The 1500 hour, 500 multi is probably the average time most drivers get into Eagle motors, so I don't accept lower experience as a cause. What I do believe is that in the past few years, less and less pilots from Eagles traditional recruiting grounds, Great Barrier, Mountain Air, Sunair, etc, have been getting the nod, with an increase of new hires with instructor backgrounds. I don't think you can discount the ATO, IFR experience these guys have, they are doing the job, albiet in a different aircraft, but for them, the "step up" is an easier one. I was told by a senior C and T when I was under line training that he could easily tell the background of the various pilots he trained, with a marked level of overall competence from the guys with the ATO background.
Food for thought for Eagle perhaps?

[Uncle Chop Chop]

Alright someone mentioned the 3 day EAG interview. It's been very quiet on that issue for a while on pprune, so begin.........

"Well I walked into my interview as the guy before me came out looking pale and bloody old seagull was sitting there........";)

[Hanz Blix]

Nosey, bang on! i just didn't want to say it but you are rite:ok: GUys/girls with prior ATO training tend to fit in alot quicker and they also don't have that instructor mentallity ingrained (my ways rite yours isn't).

The fact that its now 100 sectors because of gps training dosnt mean much, guys online get about 3 approaches before doing the check and some have not done any prior to the check. Its just extra sectors to ensure guys get through! Hardly the image everybody thinks eag have of been choppers.

Like I said earlier the interview process needs to change (I believe they are trying too) less tech stuff and more personality interigation:} might show up problems before they get the nood.

[Cloud Cutter]

Nosey, again I see where you're coming from, but it's just not backed up by the anecdotal evidence. Ex charter guys may in general pick it up quicker than instructors, but of those who have been chopped over the recent past, most were from charter backgrounds. My background is in both, and I wouldn't like to choose which gave me the most valuable experience.

As you say, Eagle generally recruit 'low timers', and how low just depends on the industry at the time. In the past 2 years, it went pretty low - below 1000 hours total and in some cases below 100 multi. But there have been periods like that in the past. I would consider 1500 and 500 multi to be very high experience in comparison to the average since 2004. Once again, I don't believe low experience levels to be a worthy scapegoat for recruitment/training problems.

[Hanz Blix]

cc
"I see where you're coming from, but it's just not backed up by the anecdotal evidence. Ex charter guys may in general pick it up quicker than instructors, but of those who have been chopped over the recent past, most were from charter backgrounds."

UMMMMMMM think you might be wrong on that one CC:confused:

Without getting into who is better debate (instructors or RPT guys) may be things actully boil down furthur than that. Think back to when most of us finshed training mid-late 90's instructors had been around for a while and had a good amount of knowledge to pass on (and they wanted to be there coz they spent a fortune) , also the quality of pilot being produced was better. Now with full student loans we have more pilots training who really arnt 110% keen to do this for a career they inturn become instructors who pass on a lower level of skills and don't train as well and so on so on!

Lets face it the quality of students flocking out of flying schools is decreasing (apart from some) maybe it is only now starting to show

[Cloud Cutter]

I'm not wrong on the specific fact you have quoted (although I could have used the term 'the majority' rather than 'most').

Graduates from flying schools don't have to instruct. A lot of them go and get charter jobs as soon as they get their commercials. BTW, my advise to any instructor who asks me, is that they should get a charter job, so I guess I'm also leaning toward that side of the debate. I still think it comes down to the person though, and the job they've been in previously, while relevant, is secondary to their value as a whole package. BTW, I'm afraid I wasn't on the scene in the 90s, so can't really relate there.

Again, just my opinion, and I'm interested in those of others. :)

[stoidiuoy]

At the end of the day if you put the work in there won't be any issues. Sure getting used to an extra 100kts and dual ops IFR may be a struggle for some but alot of work goes in and if the candidate is prepared to put in even more, no problems.
It's actually more like 120 sectors by the end of it all.
and
Chopper was an ass by the way.

[Cypher]

IMHO You can't beat charter and ATO experience...

Most of the checkies I've flown with have also said that they can easily tell a guy/girl whos had ATO experience to a guy/girl with purely instructing experience of circuits and bashing beacons in fine weather....

IMHO if you're a ATOer, you're forced to fly in all sorts of conditions under all sorts of weather... whether it be with a pax whos pushy and has to get there no matter what, to flying in weather that is less than ideal. You just can't cancel a flight because the weather is below 30 km vis... and theres more than 1/8 cloud.

I've heard a few ex-instructor crewmembers mutter - "We're not really going in this are we?"

I have nothing against instructors, I used to be one of them.. however all my flying experience didn't originate from purely instructing and in the end I had flown a different variety of operations in which I found instructing to be the most 'artifical'....

Flame retartant jockies on....

[haughtney1]

I've heard a few ex-instructor crewmembers mutter - "We're not really going in this are we?"


Ive heard a few Captains mutter that as well:8

Whether your an ex-instructor, ex-charter/freight warrior, or fresh out of your initial MEIR....100 sectors ought to be plenty:ok:
Im not sure where some of you guys are coming from...but it seems to be that you cant agree as to why flying a very basic aeroplane and operating it in a well known and understood fashion is hard. May I suggest that these problems go all the way back to the initial training where most of the instructors have no airline experience, have little "real world" IFR time, and are generally building hours towards the right seat of a turboprop as well. IMHO thats where the problem lies, there seems to be more emphasis on building hours with instructors, rather than emparting experience (although to fair most NZ "C" cats are sadly lacking both)

[mattyj]

Lets just face it..all the great instructors have long since disappeared into the flight levels and who can blame them..you have to make your money back somehow..The cost of flight training now coupled with our elected officials sucking every last spare drop of cash out of the economy just means its all too difficult to properly prepare yourself for that first turboprop job.

[Hanz Blix]

Haughtney1 your bang on! This is what I was trying to say in a previous post just didn't word it a well.:D

[Sqwark2000]

Just to add my 2c worth,

At least 2 of the recently chopped had 24hrs in the Toronto sim doing the type rating (12 as flying pilot) & 165 sectors before their initial check to line. With the exception of 1 gentleman, 3 of the last 4 people not successful, were older chaps that appeared to be way outside of thier comfort zone when they started with eagle, all were high time GA who did thier piston jobs well, but IMHO were to "set in their ways" and didn't enjoy the busy-ness of Eagle Ops. It can be very stressful trying to get your head around the new environment & SOPS whilst doing 6 sectors a day with 15-20min turnaronds and a minimal meal break thrown in.

Its a real shame when someone gets cut but as it's been said before, how much training do you give someone that doesn't progress as well as 95% of those before them???

Eagle checks are full-on, especially those after inital line check, because leading up to your inital, you're are being groomed for the check for at least 4 weeks prior and you're in that check frame of mind, whereas after that, when you get your C2 (180day check) or C1/C2 (annual renewal) you have to be able to perform to standard without having flown s/e in the last 6months. The circuit work can be the most demanding because flying low level, s/e with phase 1's and considerations thrown in is not your everyday experience at work, again 6months since you last did one.

All in all though, it can be done and done well, and it's an enjoyable job and company to work for.


S2K

[Cloud Cutter]

Well put S2K, basically what I was trying to say.

[haughtney1]

165 sectors before their initial check to line


:eek: good gawd...he should've got the chop after 40 sectors!!

[Hanz Blix]

Thats what we have been trying to get across Haughtney1!

Popular industry belief is that Eag are choppers for new F/O's but that just isn't the case they are putting huge amounts of time and money into these chaps before sending them packing.

Like you said 165 sectors! come on if thats not giving you every chance what is.

[mattyj]

Had a chat on the apron with an Eagle Newbie two days ago. Just passed his Check to line. He said it was the hardest check he had ever done. Nothing like what he expected. Like a single pilot IFR check was what he said..with lots more questions..no autopilot..check captain constantly being a pain in the a--e, heaps of single engine/emergency proceedures..and at twice the speed.

And just when all the IFR was done and the sweat was going salty on the upper lip..45 minutes of Circuits at Hamilton..mostly single engine.

(first circuits he had done too in a Beech)

I admire those Eagle Boys (and Girls) They deserve their big fat paychecks!!

[Hanz Blix]

Honestly thats the biggest load of cr$p I've ever heard don't believe everything a newbee tells you:=

"heaps of single engine/emergency proceedures..and at twice the speed."

From memory the average is 3! A V1 cut, fire prior to the arc and one in the circuit. (if you made a mess of them maybe 1/2 more to help you pass)


"Like a single pilot IFR check was what he said..with lots more questions..no autopilot.."

Use to be not anymore infact they have been failing people for having low CRM! NO Autopilots, well maybe he shouldn't have joined they are beechs:O

However I totally agree with this

"They deserve their big fat paychecks!!"

Money money money:ok:

[B190PILOT]

I agree the pass rate on Eagle Air check flights has reached an unacceptable low.
There could be many reasons for this high failure rate (as discussed) but this thread has focused more on new entrants than existing pilots. As I understand it the failure rate is almost as high in line pilots and upgrades as it is in new entrants. Which puts pressure on the old boys learning new tricks theory.