Add for B737 crew in Sunday Times

[Romeo E.T.]

Check out career section in todays Sunday Times, 30 july 2006.

Problem is that the e-mail address seems to be non-existant as it was return to me "undelivered".

Could this be the SAA low cost airline crew hiring process?

Their e-mail add quoted as : [email protected]

[Boeing737jock]

hello mate!

Did you find the e-mail?



jock

[skyvan]

Yes, it is the SAA LCC ad.

[Mark J B]

I must have missed that one, had a second hand newspaper. I only saw the ad for Interlink which if I have my facts right is Murads' airline? What did the add say?

[AfricanSkies]

Could somebody please post the ad here? :)

[Shrike200]

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m305/Shrike200/LCCrew.jpg

For what it's worth, there it is....

[Shrike200]

Interesting....if I was management at.....(thinking of examples.....) say, Nationwide, I would be at least slightly concerned, and furiously firing off memo's recommending salary increases all round. Any other companies who should be worried?

[Contract Dog]

hey romeo, you say that address is u/s, did any of you manage to get the correct email addy? thanks for the ad shreke, its a pain in tha a:mad: to get that kind of thing up here on contract.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Address is good AFAIK. It seems their mailbox got hit by a wave of CVs that put it under serious pressure.:D :ok:

Keep trying, boet...;)

[beechbum]

Any idea of what the salaries are going to be? Heard in the region of R250 - R300K/year for F/O's and R500k/year for Capt's. Anyone care to shed any light?

[JG1]

Despite this being the first advert published for this new airline, there have already been appointments made, both for Captains and F.O.'s.

Contracts being signed today.

[Shrike200]

Yes, they've already approached people they could think of off the top of their heads. Anybody know how many positions are available in total, and how many have already been filled?

Just a note, that email address won't work at the moment since the inbox appears to be full.

[Q4NVS]

This is hard to believe, but possible.. :suspect:

Anyone know some1 personally, who has already signed?
Is it not possible that these are people who have already been for the std/previous SAA Interview sessions and were successfull i.e Shortlisted.

A colleague of mine is in this position, and a few weeks back he was of the opinion that they would be called first, 2b offered these positions :D

If this is however not the case i.e. that those being called are rather just relatives of the Airbus Formation Team, then it is bollocks anyway.
Believe me, you probably don't want to work there either then...

I know, it is easier said than done, but in the long run "Easy Come - Easy Go".

Overall, if things follow the normal flow of things, it is gr8 for the whole industry and I believe Pilot's at all levels should start feeling a bit more "positive".

Possible vacancies then at SAX, Comair, 1Time and NW, as well as the ripple effect lower down :ok:

Just wondering what's gonna happen to the current SAA Drivers then? :oh:

[nugpot]

Don't think you will find many vacancies at SAX or Comair at the scales bandied about. Very few SAX pilots will have 1000 hrs PIC in a/c >55 tonnes, so they will have to go as FO's.

I can't see Comair guys leaving either, but that's just my opinion.

[Q4NVS]

Maybe FO's...? :hmm:

Anyway, think things are slowly on the "up", especially considering that Cathay will also be interviewing in SA again next week.

I personally know 4 candidates that have been invited for these, and thats just me.. :O

[Shrike200]

....those being called are rather just relatives of the Airbus Formation Team....

The example I've been told about was at least a member of the Boeing formation team. As far as I've been told, he turned the offer down, as did some others, but all training posts (for example) have apparently been filled, or so the story goes. In the tradition of these kind of posts on these forums, its a rumour, but well founded apparently.

I think it will have a positive effect on the whole, especially if local airlines see employees moving off to the likes of Cathay, Gulf, Emirates etc (which is definately happening, so it's not just options from local airlines that are the be all and end all of the SA job market)

I can't see Comair guys leaving either, but that's just my opinion.

I second that - which is why I mentioned Nationwide. This (as usual) looks to be the airline most likely to face multiple resignations all of a sudden. Depending on the number of people required for this LCC - as I asked before, anybody with any info on numbers required? I always support Nationwide, kind of a 'support the underdog' feeling' (plus some friends there), but sometimes the management there seems to have blinkers on?

[Q4NVS]

Maybe this will shed some light on the subject - This is an extract of an interview on World at Six (6th July 2006), between Bruce Whitfield and Gareth Griffins (SAA's acting Chief Financial Officer).

Bruce Whitfield:
It is great news for consumers certainly. Comair has got 23 aircraft altogether including the Comair and the Kulula fleet. How big is your fleet going to be in this particular space?

Gareth Griffins:
In terms of the SAA fleet in total, we have got 70 aircraft currently of which four will be moved across to the low-cost carrier, completely arm's length. We will take it from there and see how it evolves. We anticipate taking it up to 10 aircraft in a short space of time, just in the low-cost airline. :}

Previously, I had a rumour that SAA is looking at a figure of approximately 7 Crews per aircraft, the idea being that they will fly maximum hours per month with the aircraft spending the minimum time on the ground (but that was hear-say...) :oh:

With 4 aircraft initially, that is already 28 Crews (i.e. 56 Pilots). When this becomes 10 aircraft as quoted, the numbers do grow significantly. :D

My question still is, what about the "current" drivers..? :ouch:

[nugpot]

My question still is, what about the "current" drivers..? :ouch:

They'll be getting the 38% MOP increase...... :{

[Q4NVS]

Eish! :sad:

And loose their jobs a month later...? :*

[George Tower]

I had a asked about the SAA crews in another forum:E

and was told that they would not be flying Lo-co at all.

However my question is this - If the expansion is going to happen as planned i.e. from 4 - 10 aircraft in <1year where are the pax going to come from. Even though most of the key economic fundamentals point to growth, I simply don't see this level of growth happening. The Lo-co market is now far more mature - domestically speaking anyway.

So surely there has to be a casualty - Nationwide and/or 1-Time?

If SAA Lo-co has identified these areas of growth to be regional as opposed to just domestic then this would beg the question of BASA's as this airline is meant to be independent of SAA so surely couldn't be automatically granted rights on existing BASA's. Which then leads me to ask whether any one knows if the new airline has an AOC yet? SUrely now that we're in August and they want to fly November - that's not much time.

I'm sure that messers Bricknell and Novack et al will be making many a telephone call to their lawyers in the coming months.

[AfricanSkies]

No casualty passenger load wise - If SAA sheds the B738's then SAA won't have the B738 capacity any more, these pax simply switch to the LCC.

[vagabond 47]

What with the web address blocked by back log of applications........anyone have an alternative to get a CV through before the deadline on the 5th? I have a friend with B738 Check Airman Approval.

[saducees]

I Hear its called TULCA
The ultimate low cost airline:D

[Kittycat]

I just heard that the recruitment is done for this airline. They took on a total of 47 pilots.

[TooBadSoSad]

Good luck to all those who are leaving their current airlines to work for the SAA LCC! SAA management have lied to the SAA pilots about this carrier and they are bullsh_ting you!! "Come fly for us as a Captain for R540,000 a year because we will give you a quick track into SAA mainline!!" What cr_p! By starting the LCC SAA will have far too many pilots and these pilots have protection in their scope clause which does not allow SAA to reduce the number of pilots on the SAA seniority list. So now the airline has less aircraft and they also have a retirement age agreement that allows pilots to stay on until 63. They could try to offer the pilots contracts to reduce the impact of having too many pilots but with the strong Rand and high SAA salaries plus excellent benefits, who the hell wants to go and work for a foreign carrier when you now have to pay tax in SA on the contract salary unless you stay out of SA for 60 days in a row and 180 days a year so that you land up with far less than just staying at SAA, working 45 hard hours a month and earning a great salary while spending most of your time on the beach watching the LCC pilots working their asses off!! SAA then has far too many pilots but can't get rid of them and also has an obligation to employ all the cadets they have just dropped half a million on for their pilot training, so if you think you are going to get into SAA because you happen to have cashed in your present airline for the SAA LCC, think again. There is also the chance that one of the other LCC's gets hold of a smart lawyer and finds a way to prove that the LCC was only formed to put them out of business and hits SAA with a huge anti-competitive fine which forces the LCC to change the way it carries on business and then makes it even more unprofitable than it already will be and as with all other legacy carrier LCC's worldwide, GOES OUT OF BUSINESS!! File this post and reply to it in a year's time!!

[boyracer]

well done to all who made it , be advised that the lcc will not release you to saa , as this will cost , but you got a great step into cathay , emirates etc enjoy, you'll have the best training that there is... its as good as saa if not better .:D
....



ps the selection is over

[Q4NVS]

Haha ;)

Must be better than: Poluka.com

"Pilot's on Lay-off under Khaya's Attitude"

Wrt to the selection process being over, I do find it kind of hard to believe, as according to the advertisement the closing date is only the 5th August 2006...

Surely, the Management of LCC could have waited until all have been received, in order to poach the absolute best that is available. If this is not the case, then from the start I have to already question their ability to make this a profitable venture. :sad:

It is the small but continuous expenses that destroy your bottom line, adding to the big scheme of things.

If they knew they could find enough/suitable candidates, why place the add in the Sunday Times at all? In fact there were 2 adds in the same print @ a minimum of R40 000 per add. This could have paid the salaries of a complete Crew for the start-up month already. Penny wise? :ugh:

If they had to advertise (to keep it legal), why not dump it in the Pofadder Post (that's legal huh?) and save the LCC alot of money...? :=

I'm watching this closely - the biggest action in SA Aviation for a long time, whichever way it goes.

Btw, read 2day that Iberia (Spain) are pretty much following the same route!

[Solid Rust Twotter]

I guess those of us who've forwarded CVs will just have to wait and hope. I believe they have crews for the four startup aircraft but will need more for the rest of the aircraft when they arrive.

Good luck to all who applied. Let's hope this is is a viable enterprise and that all goes well.

[Deskjocky]

Had a chat with the chaps yesterday-so far over 500 CV's have been recieved- the process is far from over. As far as I know the only guys on the job are the Training Captains as they have to be ready for the first intake.

As far as this is a stepping stone into SAA- SAA is under no obligation to recruit any of the LCC's crew if it had the need

[RSQ]

Looking at the goings on in this country - I wouldn't fly for SAA in any guise if they begged -from the "old guard" to the new guard - this airline has no pride in its standards of service. I would be too embarrassed to fly pax with the levels of service and courtesy the pax receive! You guys are right - probably only Nationwide would lose crews due to their poor remuneration levels !

[Deskjocky]

Looking at the goings on in this country - I wouldn't fly for SAA in any guise if they begged -from the "old guard" to the new guard - this airline has no pride in its standards of service. I would be too embarrassed to fly pax with the levels of service and courtesy the pax receive! You guys are right - probably only Nationwide would lose crews due to their poor remuneration levels !

You are soo right- all 500 CE pilots have rushed to send in their CV's.... clearly they wont feel to embarassed to fly a B737 800:ok:

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Guess us unemployed drivers will just have to swallow our pride and go for it then...:ok:

Hope management can keep it together and not go the Spoories route with political interference and too many chiefs...:uhoh:

[beechbum]

It seems as if Nationwide has been drained of crew to man the -800's for the lowcost carrier. Nice break guys and good luck with the new venture. If ex SAA retired and now ex Nationwide commanders are now crewing the -800's in the left seat it is a foregone conclusion that the most suitable F/O's would originate from there. It makes sense. No need for arduous interviews - just get the recommendation and you're in.The only good thing I guess for the like of SRT and co. is that there are spots for many at Nationwide. So get cracking with the CV's.If you're wondering as to why an advert was put out - just a legal requirement - that's all!!!
I don't know of many that were thinking of jumping ship from Comair or 1Time for that matter. The present salary wouldn't attract. I believe that the package is fairly low around R275k or so for an F/O and no medical aid and pension to talk about.
Anyways what is interesting though is what is going to happen to the present crews on the -800. I hear that SAA are presently short of crew so these will be absorbed or put onto contract as a few have said. But what to further -800's going to the LCC? What will happen to the guys then?
Interesting times ahead for industry and crews at SAA alike! I think!:hmm:

[Q4NVS]

CE rocked hard - makes sense... :ouch:

But 500 CV's from CE - Hey every1 then had to apply 6 times.

If I'm not mistaken, in a previous post, a while ago, it was said that CE only has a total of 90 Pilots..?

Some Pilot Statistics (estimated):
BA/Comair @ 170
SAX @ 156
Nationwide @ 90
Link @ 80
1Time @ 40

Hey, that's 536...

You just gotta love a Rumour Network.

Wrt this topic, over the past 5 days we have had:
1. They don't have an AOC
2. Only family members/friends were employed and the contracts are signed
3. They could be closed down by Kulula/1Time/Nationwide lawyers before they start
4. 500 CV's received, but that 2 days before the closing, as well as considering the Mailbox has
been spammed since Sunday
5. No one except CE and Contract guys will apply
6. They're gonna fly to the Moon (O No, that was just me...)

Anyways...
Good chance for others to break into the Airline Job Market then.

[beechbum]

Could Deskjocky have meant - all 737-500 pilots have sent in their CV's?
Being EFIS equiped and all! I dunno like it ,don't like it!!!!!!!!!:)

[Q4NVS]

735 Maybe :hmm:

How many r they though, about 10? :ok:

[Q4NVS]

Had a chat with the chaps yesterday-so far over 500 CV's have been recieved

So DJ, how many Cv's to date - Just interested to know if the 1000 mark has now been exceeded :p

:ok:

[kingpost]

SAA seem to be follwing the rest of the world. The mainline costs them too much to operate so they form a LCC, no different to Qantas forming Jet*. They have to do this in order to survive.

Compare a 737 captians salary of Comair to SAA - a shocking difference, however one airline makes money and the other barely survives - at the end of the day we're all just operators - the shareholders have the final say and they want returns.

By the way I heard that SAA told SAAPA about the LCC, they're the ones who haven't told the truth to the troops. Does SAAPA just look after the senior "men", suppose not - that's why the retirement age was only increased to 63 and not 65 !!!!!

Good luck SAA guys - my opinion, I think the writing is on the wall.

[Q4NVS]

:}

Is there an ECHO in here..?

:ok:

[Alternative]

Anybody got info on Nationwide salaries?

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Urine poor....

[reptile]

Urine poor....

SRT is 100% right. CE salary is completely out of touch with market. They still get drivers because some folk will kill for ratings or the time. If you take the job, don't expect the good times to start rolling yet!

(SAX F/O with only a comm earns more that a CE Captain)

[Shrike200]

Anybody got info on Nationwide salaries?

Dirt.

VB merely continues to abuse the good work ethic of his employees, as usual. Their pilots are in the process of establishing an ALPA SA union branch. I'm told that the company, instead of welcoming the opportunity to take the chance to hammer out a negotiated improvement (and retain crew whilst improving morale), insists that it won't recognise this union, as it 'has to represent 50% of ALL company employees, not just the pilots'. This just shows that the company is engaged purely in a chain-yanking, time wasting exercise. Management seems intent on undoing some of the good work done by some people in recent history. I suppose that's what aviation management's purpose in life is though....or maybe it's just an HR function, I'm still not sure! :ugh:

Thats my take, as an interested bystander.

[Anti-Skid Inop]

(SAX F/O with only a comm earns more that a CE Captain)[

Hey Reptile,

Not entirely true, the Captains at NTW do earn reasonable salaries, Although not great!! They definitely earn more than a F/O with only a Comm at SAX.

The net salary of a NTW Capt (737) is about the same as the SFO3 payscale at SAX.

As for the F/O's at NTW, that's a different story!!!! Quite a shame really.

[Shrike200]

As for the F/O's at NTW, that's a different story!!!! Quite a shame really.

...and now they want the F/O's there to hang around for four years before they can get command. What are the chances?

[George Tower]

I always find it interestesting when this topic comes up in SA that no one is prepared to quote actual figures. This info is openly discussed elsewhere in the world, for instance easyjet even publish their salaries on their website.

So how's about some "rumour" it is afterall part a remour network.;)

[Shrike200]

Good point there GT, and I'd like that to change. I reckon we're all on the same team when it comes to that, open info does good. I know the companies often don't want the salaries they pay their crew discussed openly (because they're quite frankly terrified of the open market), so perhaps we've been brainwashed by them to a degree?

I have it on good authority that a Nationwide F/O earns about R14500 p/m basic, plus R80 per working day S&T. Tax on that will be at least R2500, so they end up clearing about R12000 p/m. I'm not sure if there are any ranks/notches along the line, or if all F/O's earn the same amount, although if there are differences based on seniority, they are few, and the difference in salary is minimal. I also have no idea about any benefits (medical etc, but I believe they do not get any form of pension).

I'm not too sure of the Captains salaries, but I believe they vary quite a bit, based on the type of contract (ie part time, full time, etc). I think a full time non-ex skygod earns about R30 000 or so p/m? Maybe slightly more.

[FO Gyro]

Back to the age old debate about Airways' salaries. Those that claim that Airways pilots earn too much, and the airline can't make ends meet as a result, do not understand the issues at SAA. :ugh:

SAA presently has one of the highest ratios of employees to aircraft. How is one supposed to make money when one is employing 2 to 3 times as many people per aircraft. I've heard approximate figures that the industry standard is around 100 employees per aircraft. SAA has around 300! Why victimise the pilots saying they earn too much? Or is it just jealousy? What about upper management that get fat bonus cheques, even when the company has a bad year! Do people not remember the Coleman Andrews era? Do people remember how much he earnt? It run into the hundreds of millions! :*

[bianchi]

Greetings FO Gyro,

You hit the nail right on the head, why must the pilot group pick up the tab for the emlpoyment agency SAA is running ? BS !!!:=

:ok: :ok: :ok:

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Aircrew are generators of income while management are spenders.

Doesn't make sense to cut down on those who make money but a building full of social experiments and their secretaries appears to be OK...:rolleyes:

[Deskjocky]

Aircrew are generators of income while management are spenders.

Maybe this is semantics but the airlines’ distributive mechanisms are the generators of income for the airline- having spent quite a bit of time in this area I’ve never seen a pilot involved in this process:confused:

[Solid Rust Twotter]

No pilots and engineers = no aircraft fly = no revenue generated. The same could be said about other operations within the structure but I doubt any of them could do the pilots' job while the pilots and engineers could possibly muddle along in theirs. Also, no one would miss management for a fair bit until someone remarked on how smoothly things are running...:E

The aircrew are the workers on the coalface and while the support structure is necessary it appears much larger than it needs to be at SAA.

[SortieIII]

Maybe this is semantics

No maybe about it, Deskjocky!

[Anti-Skid Inop]

To add to Shrike200's post.
An F/O on the long range fleet (B767) takes home a Gross Basic salary of
+/-R 25 000, added to that is an International allowance of approx R 3900 per month( depending on number of trips).
An average take home salary of +/-R 20 000 is what you can expect. Not great , but you can survive on that.
Captains on the long range fleet will average take home pay, incl International allowances, of just over+/- R30 000 average per month.
Comparing these salaries Internationally with pilots flying similar aircraft and similar routes, NTW is well below the international norm.
Hope this helps

[nugpot]

Back to the age old debate about Airways' salaries. Those that claim that Airways pilots earn too much, and the airline can't make ends meet as a result, do not understand the issues at SAA.


I completely agree that this issue is not a simple one, but could you please explain to me what justifies an annual package (when the MOP comes through) of close to R2 million for a captain flying an average of 66 legs a year.

Helmet on, but eyes wide open.....

[FO Gyro]

Nugpot, you mean to tell me you are happy to earn peanuts. What's wrong in wanting to earn, in terms of buying power, what comparable airline pilots earn overseas. These comparable airlines are not the best paying necessarily, but are your average airlines like BA or Lufthansa? Maybe that's why Comair has had a mass exodus to Emirates. They are going there to earn more bucks.

Have you seen the salaries that CEO's earn? What in this world could possibly justify that? Do you that 20 years ago, CEO's used to earn about 25 times as much as the average worker. These days that has gone up to 63 times!

Do you want to know why Captains earn so much? Have you any idea what any SAA flight is insured for in terms of 3rd party insurance?
Try R10 500 000 000!!! It's in the AFM (Aircraft Flight Manual). Any idea of the ramifications if a Captain and his/her crew prang a A340-600 in somewhere high profile like New York or Washington? He/she is in charge of a piece of equipment worth millions and millions. It suddenly puts his/her salary into perspective. Why do people have a problem with this? What about all the fat cats in government? And as for the money brought in by actors and rock stars. I think that the western world has gone mad.:confused:

[Q4NVS]

Know what - That is HOGWASH!

The combined 3rd Party Insurance on my House and Car is R10 000 000.00, but no-one pays me for that - Infact, I have to pay that "Out" company for it...:{

The only people defending this, are the Fatcats themselves!

Please explain to me how the responsibility of an SAA Captain is any different from that of a Nationwide 767 Captain. (I do not agree with Vernon's salary structure either, but hey, there must be a middle way)

If a pilot group through negotiations or whatever means, can hold a company to ransom wrt this rediculous salary increase, while the company itself made a profit equalling the yearly salaries of only 45 of their "new scale" Captains, then that is absurd! :yuk:

If you ask me, every single person there should take a 25% salary cut, including the CEO and cleaners, while committing themselves to making it a profitable organisation before EVER again discussing this...

Know what, within 3 years, they'll be Tops or the Fatcats gone.

Before aviation, I spent a few years in another "Professional" industry and let me tell you - If you do not like the pay or conditions, YOU go where you want (don't screw the business trying, cause it ain't gonna work).

If all these Fatcats were so IRREPLACEABLE, why then did "TULCA" not battle to find enough (or too many) applicants..?

Wake up and smell the Sh*t you're making for yourselves guys! :oh:

[madherb]

And as for the money brought in by actors and rock stars. I think that the western world has gone mad.:confused:
Agreed FO - try also King Beckingham of Beckingham Palace, and his ilk - 150 000 pounds PER WEEK is a ballpark figure :mad: :mad: Easy jet captain = about 80 000 pounds PER ANNUM :yuk: :yuk:
Now go do the math............:sad: :sad:
SAA have good salaries because they have a strong union, which has successfully pursued the parity issue.
That aside, remuneration is generally the most emotive issue in one's chosen profession (note I say generally) and causes untold grief, wailing and gnashing of teeth when not up to spec. Why not post your salaries girls and boys, without being exactly specific, it would open up the debate and make for entertaining reading! Maybe a few CEOs would catch a hint or two.........not to mention whole bunches of carrots.

[Q4NVS]

FO Gyro - Exactly!

Know why, because Comair's union does not hold the company to ransom and if the guys are not happy they can go...

Not saying that Comair do not treat there people well though. :ok:

That is the way it works in all industries!

If you are a waiter earning R40 per day at Sousa's Fish & Chips Diner versus your brother earning R500 per day at the Hilton. Do you think Sousa will ever pay you that?

Hey, both have the same responsibilities - I mean, Food Poisoning is a Bad Thing :}

[The Actuator]

Q4NVS so you reckon all the "Fatcats" (some of whom have worked for the company for more than 30 years! How many years service has the most senior Nationwide B767 captain?) and I should take a 25% pay cut and that will make the company profitable? You must be more naive than a calf on the way to the abattoir. The reason this company does not make a profit is because it is a company run by incompetent managers who are unable or unwilling to bow to their political masters. That is it. Once again you get paid what you negotiate no more no less. The pilots salaries are not what costs SAA.
Please tell me why you think I should take a 25% paycut? If you are a pilot why isn't your thinking more along the lines of we should all be paid along the lines of the company that sets the benchmark?
It is precisely this "woe is me, I need the hours so I'll fly for free attitude" that makes pilots in this country so capable of shooting ourselves in both feet.
TULCA got applicants for this reason only - if everyone rejected the offer and said no if we fly SAA aircraft and SAA routes we want the same pay, then SAA would have no choice but to abandon this folly money wasting exercise and hire more pilots creating movement throughout the industry.
Why is it that you never hear SAA pilots slagging off the other airlines pilots or companies the way you seem to do? Please don't give me the taxpayer crap cos I don't see you slagging the CEO of Telkom/SABC/Portnet/SARS/ etc etc.:=

[Solid Rust Twotter]

The reason this company does not make a profit is because it is a company run by incompetent managers who are unable or unwilling to bow to their political masters...

I thought it was kowtowing to politics that caused the problems in the first place. If management had the goons to tell the politicians to shove their agenda up their poopchutes and allow them to run the company as a profitable enterprise we'd more than likely see a major improvement.

[Q4NVS]

Not slagging SAA Pilots (at ALL)...

But, a total Salary Budget increase in excess of R300 Million per year (modest figures), with no "real" increase in efficiency or productivity by those who demands it...:ooh:

If I was a Shareholder in such a company, I would probably consider shutting it down (and maybe start a "new" one two weeks later). But hey, I'm not a Shareholder, so what do I know about Business Economics 101. :E

I think I have made my point and I choose to stand by it.

Fly Safe :ok:

[madherb]

I think I have made my point and I choose to stand by it.

The only point you appear to make is that SAA pilots earn too much money, in your (non-economics-rated) opinion. Would you still be of that opinion if you were among their ranks? Methinks not. := Market forces, union power, politics.......all's fair in love and war. If, on the other hand, you are attempting to make the point that the taxpayer has a personal stake in the national carrier's affairs - well, that is possibly more valid.
Perhaps the 'age 60' issue will also become a factor - after all, a newly-promoted 'Bus skipper will certainly earn less than a 60+ long serving one.
(Not to mention FOs spending more time in the right seat............) :sad: :sad:

[FO Gyro]

I can't help thinking with some of the comments made wrt salaries, depending on which side of the fence one is, that with some guys, there is a general feeling of JEALOUSY, and RESENTMENT that they didn't get into SAA. The tone of the comments bear testimony to this. Names like "Skygods" are childish. Maybe all those that didn't make it should be called the "Skypaupers". THIS IS ONLY DIRECTED AT THOSE THAT USE THESE TERMS!

What they don't realise is that if SAA pilots earn peanuts, so will every other airline and charter pilot. Like it or not, SAA does form the benchmark for pilots salaries. They don't realise they are shooting themselves in the foot. Is that all you guys think you are worth? Your worth is negotiated. If you think you are worth little, someone will pay you little. Why do you think song artists get paid so much? Not because the recording company wants to pay them that, its because they demand it! They know there is a large price tag to pay for someone of that calibre. Why target SAA pilots and say they should drop 25% in salaries, when SAA is employing far too many employees. SAA is extremely top heavy. Younger, leaner companies don't have this problem. The same pilots that call SAA guys "Fatcats" and "Skygods" change their tune very quickly when they get in at SAA. Funny hey! :=

[skyvan]

The same pilots that call SAA guys "Fatcats" and "Skygods" change their tune very quickly when they get in at SAA. Funny hey!

It's amazing how many pms and emails one gets from those same people who slate SAA, when they are trying to get in.

If the non-Skygods wonder why so few Skygods are active on this board, maybe they should look towards their own behaviour. As much as one has a right to express one's own opinion, so one also has the right to ignore the constant whining and carping on of those who are "wannabes", or even the non-wannabes, who are not, therefore, directly affected.

As for calls for a 25% paycut, that is a serious cheek, coming from someone who is not involved. Do you also ask your doctor for a discount when you are lying in the trauma room?

[nugpot]

What they don't realise is that if SAA pilots earn peanuts, so will every other airline and charter pilot. Like it or not, SAA does form the benchmark for pilots salaries.

You are quite wrong sir. It is unrealistic for the other airlines to use SAA in negotiations. We all know that the other airlines are not losing guys to SAA anymore due to SAA's employment policies. We currently negotiate on sound economic principles.

You might also look at the history of the SAA renumeration structure. Both the EFP and MOP agreements were negotiated before SAA had to stand on their own feet as a business and when the company was well protected by high placed individuals in government. Money was no object and SAAPA did a very good job of exploiting this situation. I do not complain about SAA salaries. I am quite happy with what I earn at another airline. I merely state the obvious. In the SA context, R 2 million per year gives you a much higher standard of living than any other senior captain in the world. Just look at how many SAA captains (in fact, even FO's) own aircraft and holiday homes , and compare that to international standards.

Obviously, SAAPA would be stupid to allow a salary cut in isolation, but please don't come here and tell me that you are worth every penny - that is untrue and insulting. SAA pilots have a lifestyle (hours worked) and pay package (disposable income after basics) second to none in the world.

I would go to SAA for the money, but that is also just exploiting the situation. I can never argue that SAA salaries are market related in the SA context.

An SAA captain is NOT a rockstar, CEO or actor. He is a pilot - compare him with other pilots.

[madherb]

In the SA context, R 2 million per year gives you a much higher standard of living than any other senior captain in the world. Just look at how many SAA captains (in fact, even FO's) own aircraft and holiday homes , and compare that to international standards.


Isn't that exactly what parity does - compare? Have you done research yourself on the purchasing power of your salary compared to other countries? I do not believe for one second that SAA pilots enjoy a better lifestyle than their colleagues in the US, Australia, Europe, Singapore, Hong Kong etc. Equal maybe - but not better. (Weather aside - now that is a different kettle of fish!)

As for exploiting the situation - hey, money makes the world go round! Human nature being what it is, don't expect things to change.

Sit back and enjoy the ride - if you have a flying job and enjoy it, have enought to eat, a roof, wheels, holidays, some travel perks - well there you go! :O:O

[FO Gyro]

Nugpot, it's a pity you would feel unworthy to earn that type of salary. Do you not value yourself more, or feel that you hold an important job, on a par with any senior manager. If you feel that pilots are only glorified truck bus drivers, then that's a shame.

[nugpot]

Nugpot, it's a pity you would feel unworthy to earn that type of salary. Do you not value yourself more, or feel that you hold an important job, on a par with any senior manager. If you feel that pilots are only glorified truck bus drivers, then that's a shame.

You see FO Gyro, I have actually been a senior manager. I left aviation for 8 years and returned because I like the job, the lifestyle and the money. I can actually compare being a captain and being a senior manager and being a captain is MUCH easier and the lifestyle improvement as a pilot is immeasurable.

Enough about that. What I neglected to say earlier was that I don't wish a paycut on anyone. I understand the sentiment of some af the other pilots on here though. We see the financials of our companies every year and we see the effect of aircrew salaries on the bottom line.

As an SAA pilot, take your money, live your life and protect what you have, but don't try to justify your worth. You are the beneficiary of an historical pay system that is out of touch with reality.

Pilots at other airlines work harder for less. Their companies don't get 12 billion rand bale-outs from government. They are not at SAA because of the colour of their skin, not because they are not worthy. An international captain at SAA flies maybe 66 legs a year and carries maybe 18 000 passengers. I fly that in a month and carry double the number of passengers in a year. Who do you think makes more decisions?

A last thought before I retire from this discussion. Do yourself a favour and go to an IFALPA converence. If you speak to senior pilots from all over the world and compare living standards, you will find what I have: SAA pilots are very, very lucky.

I don't wish a reduction in your lifestyle, but I don't believe that you need an improvement of 38% either.

[FO Gyro]

Nugpot, what you say about SAA working conditions is very true. SAAPA has fought extremely hard over the years to ensure that our working conditions are good. I must agree that we probably are one of the best companies to work for, despite the unfortunate politics. A lot of guys here forget how lucky they actually are. Fortunately I can still remember my first job quite clearly, and how exploited I was, cleaning and washing aircraft, and being a delivery boy, only getting lucky later on when they thought I was worth to fly full time (I had 200hrs with a twin IF).

I do feel for those that initially got into flying with a view or goal of getting into SAA when they first started flying. Unfortunately the goal posts seemed to have been moved, and getting in now is quite difficult with the whole cadet pilot scheme and the politics. My best friend has just left Comair for Emirates for better career path options. Tried to talk him out of it, but then its easy for me sitting this side of the fence I guess.

[Shrike200]

...and getting in now is quite difficult...

I'd just like to point out that typo you obviously made there. When you said 'quite difficult', you meant 'mission impossible'... ;)

[Q4NVS]

I think and it has subsequently been proven that the guys at SAA currently do feel very emotional about their salary situation...

Contrary to popular belief though, I understand this.

The point I tried making (and think I have done so in the past), is that I do not think it is a healthy situation at the moment.

I guarantee you that SAA cannot afford this, no matter how you look at it - THAT infact is my point. Whether someone earns R5 million a year, why would we care.

But, there will come a time when this "process" will turn against the SAA guys and that is the part which NONE of us (believe it or not), wants to happen. Because then, as rightfully said by many, we all will get exploited.

So forgive me for actually being concerned about the future of SAA, but know what - When SAA fails, the 30+ years service guys will be long gone. But possibly it would also have been ruined for those who still "believed" that NEVER is a very long time.

That is me loosing my currency on this thread - Hope they get it "all", but leave a Profitable Company behind for your children to follow in your footsteps.

(Well said Nugpot)

Ditto

[The Actuator]

:ugh: I'd love to know where this idea comes from that we work less than guys at other airlines, plenty of guys ran out of hours last year. Please don't give us this argument about sectors and numbers carried when you fly between JHB and CPT 4 times a day - (1) you still sleep in the same time zone every friggin night and (2) half the guys at SAA are in the same boat.

You assume that the guys with holiday homes and planes only earn money from SAA - bad assumption. I've been at SAA for 7 years and I certainly can't afford either on my SAA salary. Furthermore all things being equal (i.e. if I made the grade:eek:) I’d be a Captain at any other airline in SA surely you gotta compensate me for that?

If SAA cannot afford to pay their pilots salaries on a par with their colleagues in the real world they should refrain from giving their managers bonuses in the percentiles that they have in their latest financials.:yuk:

Other companies may not get their bailouts from government but I don't see them making politically motivated business decisions.

This proposed increase that keeps getting bandied about (the figure on here is wrong) is as a result of what we've agreed to do to help the company out in the past couple of years and it is now time to collect. I could care less if it hurts the company, it's not like the company has our interests at heart and I very much doubt that it will be worthwhile working in any company that has the prefix South African in the future.

[FO Gyro]

People on this forum say SAA pilots get very emotive when salaries are discussed. How would you like it if you were told you earn too much and should get a pay cut, and that one is not worth what one is paid? I wonder if the CEO's and senior managers get told that?

I just get really tired of the few pilots out there that are maybe bitter and twisted, that blame SAA's woes on the high salaries, and can't wait for SAA to go down the tubes. All this negativity and bitterness is uncalled for. Would they not like to see SAA do well, employ more pilots, get more modern aircraft?

Don't the pilots out there feel they should earn what their counterparts earn overseas (buying power), or do they like being cheap labour? Maybe after years of brainwashing by companies, eg. Nationwide, they feel they are not meant to earn a realistic salary. My position is that fellow colleagues in the industry are paid too little for their knowledge and experience. Have a look at what similar disciplined professions pay, and you might change your mind...

[nugpot]

I promised myself to withdraw from this discussion, but your post really needs a response.

I'd love to know where this idea comes from that we work less than guys at other airlines, plenty of guys ran out of hours last year.

Yes, and they got paid EFP over and above their generous packages for every hour over the threshold (what is it again? 68 hours per month??)

Please don't give us this argument about sectors and numbers carried when you fly between JHB and CPT 4 times a day

Bad example, you will be out of duty. Try 2 non-precision approaches and 2 ILS's to minima without autoland.

Furthermore all things being equal (i.e. if I made the grade:eek:) I’d be a Captain at any other airline in SA surely you gotta compensate me for that?

This one takes the cake. Why should you be compensated as a captain at another airline if you are still an FO? YOU made the choice to go to SAA where you knew you would take 14 years to upgrade.

I could care less if it hurts the company

Interesting attitude. Probably why SAA is the ONLY airline in SA contracting, while all the others are expanding.

I very much doubt that it will be worthwhile working in any company that has the prefix South African in the future.

There is only one other airline with that prefix. It has just added 5 aircraft to its fleet and things are wonderful - thanks for asking.

Just to make things clear. I don't want SAA pilots forced by their company to accept less than they have. What you earn does not influence my life in any way. (No - it does not pull my salary up. We don't even discuss SAA packages at negotiations. The company and the association agree that it is unrealistic.) I have a specific problem when justifications like "responsibility for 350 passengers" and "look how much CEO's earn" fly around.

And please don't tell me that you are sorry that I don't feel worthy of a huge salary. I know exactly what my contribution to my company is and how much the company can afford to pay me.

And now I am definitely out of this discussion. Sorry if I got too personal. It was not the original intent.

[kingpost]

FO Gyro

Don't the pilots out there feel they should earn what their counterparts earn overseas

So what you're saying is that you want the same salary as a British Airways, Cathay or Lufthansa pilot. You might do the same job however you work in Africa and fly overseas for an African airline, you don't live in Europe so why should a company pay you parity. A BA skipper on short haul has less disposable income, after tax than your SAA 738 skygod and living cost is higher - please get real and stop thinking that you're special. If a company can replace you with a cheaper source of labour it will and its going to happen.

The days of the big money in aviation are over, unless you work for SAA that is, take a look around, US is grinding due to union demands over salary, BA-no final pension salary - most work for a profit share or share issues - low cost is the only way to go. The secret with the European LCC is that they pay parity with the major airlines however their productivity is far better.

I agree with you that Nationwide are paid below the norm however even that over time will change once the demand outstrips supply.

[FO Gyro]

Kingpost, you obviously don't understand what parity means. We want to earn the equivalent spending money as our colleagues overseas, since we are operating into foreign airspace, with 1st world equipment, and what's more, a lot of foreign exchange is used to purchase tickets from pax overseas. In other words, drive the same car, same house, and same spare change every month. If a BA Captain earns say 100 000 pounds a year, SAAPA isn't saying we should earn 100 000 x the exchange rate! That would be foolish. Both the Lufthansa or BA pilot should be able to afford the same lifestyle.

Kingpost, who said we think we are special. You must have a superiority complex. Those are the words of someone bitter and twisted. There's that reference to "Skygod" again. You deserve the title "Skypauper" I guess if you think we are paid too much.

Actuator, have bad news for your, have done a 4 leg Cape Town a few times. It falls 5 minutes withing flight and duty. Don't talk to me about productivity. Captains at SAA on the domestic work their backsides off. They are flying up to the legal limit every month. 5 days on (each day 4 legs or a 8 hour regional flight) and 2 off, 5 on, 2 off.

I think the low cost airlines are messing it up for everyone. The company is getting in less revenue from its pax, and it forced to pay everyone less. Is this what you people want, just accept that they can't pay you more, ie. cheap labour???:hmm:

[The Actuator]

Actuator, have bad news for your, have done a 4 leg Cape Town a few times. It falls 5 minutes withing flight and duty
Fo it wasn't me who was questioning this: I pointed it out, it was this other beaut:
Q4 - you really need to relax looks like those non precision approaches are getting to you.
Just to clarify - you don't get EFP for any time you fly over the legal annual limit, you might get some trouble but not EFP!
What I want to get compensated for is my loyalty, not for the Captains job in some other domestic airline. Should I be paid the same as a first year F/O? Come on, not even your company works that way. You have to give a rational person a career path and this includes compensation - no?
I prefer to fly long haul by choice, it's where I 've always wanted to be - would I do it for less money? ABSOLUTELY NOT A CHANCE.
I'm quite comfortable with the 14 years to command only because I'm not being financially disadvantaged by that fact, if I was I would leave - SIMPLE.
The fact that you think SAA is shrinking because of an attitude one pilot has, says more about why you stopped being a senior manager:suspect: (oops my mistake and my apologies I see it wasn't you who was a senior manager) than it does about your knowledge of the airline industry. Just like you can't believe everything you read in the Huisgenoot so too that which you've picked up in a pub from your buddies about what it's like to be a pilot at SAA, also needs a pinch of salt.
I'm glad things are going well, (I did say it might not be so rosy in the FUTURE) and I'm also well pleased about the five new aircraft, you see I have friends that fly there as well. It's just that my friends don't want to work for peanuts for the next twenty years and are actively looking elsewhere while they build experience.
You ought to spend your time better promoting the self worth of your chosen profession lest other people start to think you ARE just a bus driver and ought to be paid as such!
Speaking of which I should get a little extra compensation for flying that bus instead of that Boeing;) !!!

[FO Gyro]

Actuator, sorry that was a typo error, that was for Nugpot that said one couldn't do a 4 leg Cape Town legally. Have done a few, it's a killer.

[Q4NVS]

Q4 - you really need to relax looks like those non precision approaches are getting to you.

That wasn't me - I'm too scared to fly those things... :p

Outta here :oh:

[goblin]

My best friend has just left Comair for Emirates for better career path options. Tried to talk him out of it, but then its easy for me sitting this side of the fence I guess.
Hi FO
Out of interest, why did you try to convince your bud not to join Emirates?
G

[FO Gyro]

Well, apart from losing your best mate, if you read the middle east section of PPRUNE, quite a few of the guys are not happy. Emirates seemed a great place a few years ago, but they say living expenses have gone up, and they are not coming out with the big bucks they thought they would.

To me, it doesn't seem worth it, living in the desert, being far from any family, operating mostly east/west flights with the jet lag that results, and being stuck on the overseas. The guys are also working quite hard, which means not so many days at "home".

I also realise that for me at SAA, it's easy to say, don't go. My friend realises his chance of getting into SAA seems very low at the moment, and for him, flying for BA/Comair, the prospect of flying up and down to Cape Town for the rest of his life doesn't seem appealing, so he felt he had to go.

The funny thing is that there was a poll done, and around 75% of the guys that did the poll see Emirates as a stepping stone. The problem is they don't know where the stepping stone leads to.

[LongJohnThomas]

Nicely said mate.:ok:

[journeyman]

FO Gyro,

Don't believe everything you read. Here's a quick poll for you:
Over the last 10 years
SAA to Emirates: +/- 40
Emirates to SAA: 1
Those are the facts. Let your mate work out what that says about SAA and EK.

[saywhat]

FO Gyro,
Don't believe everything you read. Here's a quick poll for you:
Over the last 10 years
SAA to Emirates: +/- 40
Emirates to SAA: 1
Those are the facts. Let your mate work out what that says about SAA and EK.

Polls aren't worth the screen the're read on. The chances of getting back into SAA, once you've left are virtually nill. That's a fact too........

[journeyman]

Begs the question: Why then, did they leave SAA in such numbers in the first place?

[FO Gyro]

I think a lot of guys left for Emirates a few years ago when the Rand was extremely weak. The one Captain I often fly with at SAA, has a brother in Emirates, and to quote him, he says he sees "cracks developing" in his brother's decision to leave SAA for Emirates.

The grass seems greener, and getting back into SAA, after leaving there, is pretty much impossible. All I know is that despite South Africa's problems of crime, for me its not worth living in the desert.

[journeyman]

FO Gyro,

Allow me to correct you. The vast majority of guys that left SAA for EK joined when the Rand was actually 50c stronger to the Dirham than it currently is!
Furthermore, just because you hear a few negative secondhand stories, does not necessarily make it so. I would suggest that if your mate wants to have a looksee, then don't discourage him - he is a big boy and can make up his own mind. I am not suggesting for an instant that EK is the be all and end all of aviation jobs - different strokes, and all that. But it sounds to me that you haven't even been there yet and if that is true, you're making some pretty sweeping judgements.
Talking about fissures - have a look at the prospective balance sheets of the two companies, and then tell me where the cracks are developing (and please, no more BS about 'operating profits').

[journeyman]

P.S. 389 people answered the poll that you mentioned. There are currently over 1500 pilots in EK - not exactly definative, is it?
So living expenses have remained about the same in SA? That's a relief - for a second I thought things were becoming a little more dear. Must be my rampant imagination. In any event, at least we still have respect for the law, great social services (for all that tax we pay) and a world-class soccer team.

[FO Gyro]

Journeyman, I'm am just expressing my opinion, just like you are, and am not making sweeping statements. I mentioned what one guy said about Emirates. I also think that that poll would be fairly accurate. You don't have to have everyone's opinion when sampling is done. That's how statistics are collected.

Talking of moving to the Middle East, I do know of one FO that left SAA for Qatar, and he says its the biggest mistake he has ever made.

For me, living in the desert, signing on at ungodly hours, being stuck on the long haul for the rest of your life, being effectively a nomad in a foreign country where your kids have to leave the country when they turn 19 yrs, doesn't turn me on. Like my pal, if I was at BA/Comair, and couldn't see myself flying up and down to Cape Town for the next 30 years, then maybe I would think differently. For someone at SAA to go there, I am not convinced.
That's my opinion. You might have yours, and I don't need to have been there to know that its too hot in summer to even enjoy your little patch of grass that you might have, or that the guys buy their 4x4's to ride up and down the dunes. Must get boring when you've done that a couple of times.

[journeyman]

FO Gyro,

I notice by some of your posts on other threads that you don't quite get the facts straight before attacking the keyboard. Remember the operating profit fiasco? Then convieniently mentioning gross profit, when that had nothing to do with the argument? Well, you're doing it again. Who the heck mentioned Qatar? That's about as different from EK as you guys are from a profit-making organisation.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion - it's just that when it's littered with distorted facts, you must realize that someone is bound to set you straight.

You seem to think that all EK does is long-haul (is that such a bad thing anyway?). The truth is that one day, you could be operating a 45 minute sector to Doha and the next pairing might be a 14 hour flight to New York. There are 81 destinations on the network, including many in Europe which is on average, about 6 hours away. So the fact is that the flying is short, medium and long haul - all on the same month's roster, if you like.

Granted, some of the sign-on times are harsh, but the fact is that, for example, all the European flights (if that's your poison), have perfectly reasonable sign-ons.

As for being a nomad and driving the dunes all day: the fact is that for the last three years, freehold property has been for sale to anybody, and the diversity of activities is not bad for a small place: when last have you been snow-skiing in SA?

[FO Gyro]

Since when was this a thread on Emirates only? It started from a ad in the Sunday Times by the way.

What fiasco? Maybe you should get you facts straight first. Like many, many other companies report OPERATING PROFIT as one of many indicators of a company's performance, SAA made an operating profit. If you don't like that, then look around at other companies and how they report their performance for the year. If you look carefully at the thread on this last issue, other people started mentioning nett profit, not me. I NEVER EVER SAID SAA MADE A NETT OR GROSS PROFIT. READ THE THREADS PROPERLY. Regarding operating profit, my facts are 100%, or are you calling the government released figures a lie? I don't deny the importance however of nett profit, but that debate is best left for the bean counters. Not so? This is a pilots forum, not an accountants forum, and its also a forum pertaining to Africa Aviation, so forget I ever mentioned Emirates.

[journeyman]

FO Gyro,

Let me remind you: What you said was that a nett and an operating profit were the same thing (I can't be bothered to check, but I trust you haven't deleted that little indiscretion). An operating profit looks hunky-dory right up until the point that you actually have to cough up for the aeroplanes. But don't let that little fact stand in your way.

I hate to be the one to point it out, but with so many inaccuracies, your credibility on this forum is dwindling quicker than your chances of upgrade within the next 15 years. I promise not to mention Emirates ever again.

[FO Gyro]

What inaccuracies? After one of my posts, someone with an accounting background agreed with my post (Jetpark). Doesn't matter now. Forget about semantics and getting bogged down in definitions. We are not here to debate financial or accounting terms. Lets stick to matters about flying rather. The thrust of what I was trying to say is that SAA, although not in the clear yet, has posted for 2 years now, an operating profit, and surely that means something positive.

[journeyman]

Fo Gyro,

You say: 'What inaccuracies?' and 'Doesn't matter now'. On the contrary my little friend, if you want to post on a big-boy forum, you need to be held accountable for your utterings. Hence a highlights reel of your previous week's misdemeanours:

1. The 'by my own calculations, 5000 hours airline time equals about 500 hours on a gyrocopter/microlite stick time' thing (Love to know the formula on that one).
2. The nett profit equals operating profit thing. This one has been hammered to death, so for the sake of your dignity, we'll just let it lie.
3. 'I NEVER SAID SAA MADE A NETT OR A GROSS PROFIT'. Yeah, you did. See point #2(I couldn't resist).
4. 'Lots of people left SAA for EK when the Rand was weak'. No they didn't - they left when the Rand was (relatively) strong.
5. 'Stuck on the long haul for the rest of your life'. If you like, I can name you at least 6 pairings that EK does that are shorter than JNB - CPT.

I could carry on but who am I kidding -this is like shooting fish in a barrel. FO Gyro, have a stupendous career and whatever you do, keep attending those corporate indoctrination classes SAA must so culpably be putting you on every six months or so. Furthermore, if I could impart one last piece of advice - change your username and when you come back in another guise, do so with circumspection and restraint.

[4HolerPoler]

Guys, as you've indicated, this is way off topic and is sadly developing into a slanging match between two members. Get it back on track please and continue the sticks & stones stuff by email or PM.

4HP

[ZS340]

Journeyman,
EK attracted many from SAA in the mid nineties for the following reasons:
1.) Quick Command
2.) More Money
3.) Better Security
To Quote one EK 777 Commander 'I had the best job in the world in the late nineties' working for a relatively small company.
Now It has expanded to a large company and today I have one of the worst jobs in the world.'

Whenever we meet up with ex SAA guys in ACCRA and Frankfurt they cant wait to come over for a chat, share old times and after a few beers, the truth spills out time and time again. Very few are happy and with few exceptions all admit that they should never have left.

The attractions are long gone

The Money is Better at SAA
The novelty of the command has gone
The security is still an issue, however who knows what is in store for the Gulf.

SAA does not have any corporate indoctrinations.....on the contrary our managemnet would like all the senior boys to bugger off and pay less to the juniors Captains to do the job.

The 40 to 1 statistic is invalid as there are many reasons why that does not take place.I would hazard a guess that with few exceptions most would return immediately if they were offered their original seniority.

The lifestyle that SAA crews are able to afford far outweigh the existance that EK crew endure in the desert. Not My words, heresay from your guys....I have never been to the ME and have never expressed an interest in going there.

By the way, the bitterness that I sense in you may suggest that you're not quite happy either.

FO GYRO You're not wrong ......you'll be doing your friend a lifelong favour if you manage to talk him out of it.

PS Journeyman is bunktime still not credited as Duty Time at EK. :ouch:

[journeyman]

ZS340,

Did you not hear the man? Stay on the topic, lest I catch you out in your lies too. You saw how easy it was with your colleague.

BTW, EK does get credit for the bunk. Looks like your informant is out of date... I sincerely hope you pay more attention to your flying than your fact gathering. By your own admission, you haven't even set foot in the UAE - how on earth can you make comments on the lifestyle there?

For what it's worth, I think SAA has no choice but to take the other players on at their own game with the advent of a LCC. There is little doubt that the future of aviation will be driven by low-cost structures and that the so-called 'legacy' carriers will eventually fade into obscurity.

This is already becoming evident in the States, where companies like Southwest, Jetblue and Song are upstaging their more illustrious counterparts. Jetblue, in a very short space of time, is now the largest operator out of JFK, for instance.

Companies like AA, with a union agreement of 61 hours per month for pilots, for example, will find it increasingly impossible to compete for marketshare unless huge concessions from it's workforce are made. The cabin crew are paid $7 an hour more than their competitors - it is simply not a sustainable situation.

It now seems that these lessons are being learnt in SA, hence the current developments.

[FO Gyro]

Without trying to get personal or belittling other people, like some people like to do on this forum, no names, they know who they are, in response as to how I would say 500 hrs in a microlight is maybe equavalent to around 5000 hrs is as follows.

In jet transport flying, the autopilot is engaged for 99% of the time. For every hour that is flown, one might be lucky to fly less than 5 minutes. In my gyroplane, I do maybe 10 landings in a hour, whereas on the domestic, as best, you would do one landing an hour, on the long haul, one landing in maybe 10 hours.

Do I have to explain the obvious and say that in terms of stick time, and experience on the type of aircraft, 500 hrs, where each and every minute has been manually polled, is maybe equavalent to ten times that in a jet transport aircraft. There is no fancy formula to use here. Just some common sense. Does that make sense, or will I get shot down again for not having the correct facts?

Don't get me wrong, obviously you can't walk into an interview and claim you 500hrs is worth much more, I'm only talking about the actual stick time when flying smaller aircraft.

[Baas]

:}

Bla bla bla bla......!


:zzz:

[reptile]

FO Gyro...you REALY need to get a life.

[FO Gyro]

I agree. Sorry if I had to bore you but Journeyman needed the explanation it seems.

How about getting back to some meaningful dialogue here. Back to the initial thread about the LCC.

I would like to know what the guys at the LCC have been told in terms of how many of SAA's -800's they are going to take. Initially they said 4, but anything up to 10. Anyone with any latest gen? Guys on -800's at SAA are worried that the domestic will shrink, but apparently there is talk of more aircraft coming our way, and presentations by Boeing and Airbus will be made shortly.

[journeyman]

I think the SAA guys on the -800 are quite justified in their concern that the domestic will shrink - that is more than likely the whole purpose of the exercise. The other players in the market will probably survive - the hardest hit will be the operator with the least nimble cost-structure. If you can't adapt to the changing market, you will surely perish.

Slightly off the topic - I flew my R/C aircraft yesterday for ten minutes, but I think it warrants about two hours in the logbook because I was using both thumbs at the same time (and a forefinger, if you count putting the gear down). :E
(Disclaimer: the above is lighthearted banter and should in no way be construed as a dig at the previous post).

[SIC]

RC is intense I must agree. I have only flown one of those once and it was by far the most intense 5 minutes of flying I have ever done!! Hectic on the heart rate!

Gyro why dont you work us out a formula for crediting different kinds of flying vs experience gained vs stick time/skills vs bunk time vs autopilot time vs VFR vs CAT 111b vs your gyro time!:ok:

[FO Gyro]

Maybe I should. I must say the most difficult flying I've ever done, is R/C heli flying. 1 hour there definitely worth 1000hrs! The skill the proficient guys demonstrate there is unbelievable. Seriously though, although in jest, you are quite right that a guy that does Cat 111 approaches daily is more experienced at them, than me for example, that has done 1 or 2 one in anger (in 10 years of domestic flying, must be a VFR pilot only I guess)! Should count for something. Only might count when looking for work. Once there, means nothing.

Getting back to the LCC, at a meeting the other day, Gen Manager, Flt Ops, said the the LCC would be a subsidiary of SAA, but not be subsidised (I know most will find that hard to swallow). Unfounded rumours amongst the -800 guys are that in a year's time we will be sitting at home, with no work. Just a rumour I hope. Then in the same breath he was talking of new aircraft for the domestic. Not sure if the market can take all these different players.

[Deskjocky]

Gyro, the advent of the LCC has been a real positive for the short haul fleet- there is an INCREASE in capacity domestically for the northern winter schedule. Routes that will benefit are CPT and DUR where, each will get additional frequencies- wide bodies added are in ADDITION to the current 738/319 operations and we are going to add More 738 frequencies where we are spilling traffic unnecessarily to competitors. The net effect is that there is an increase of and hour and a half per aircraft per day across the whole 738 fleet. The 319 fleet also benefits for a slightly lesser extent – 1 hour extra per aircraft per day. We will also enjoy a reciprocal increase in utilization on the long haul fleet of between- 2. 5 and 1.5 hours per aircraft per day- depending on the aircraft type. Although this increase is more about operating additional frequencies to long haul destinations than it is about flying them domestically. But you will see them all on the domestic routes- even the 744!

At this point in time SAA’s domestic route network is doing well - this given the fact that all of our competitors offer cheaper fares and more incentives to both travel agents and corporates. This seems to support the strategy that is currently being rolled out where the premium market segment will continue to fly SAA.

In terms of aircraft to the LCC- its all about which part of the business can make more out of the asset. Right now more 800’s will be operating regional routes as well as operating more domestic ones- so their contribution per plane to the bottom line has also gone up, what the LCC chaps have forgotten is that all their numbers are based historical data for a larger fleet- SAA’s performance going forward is going to be much better, me thinks a fair head butting session is going to ensue. Their only option may be to source capacity outside SAA , either that or the fleet expansion plans will have to be brought forward- but again, this will not alleviate their short term need for growth and so I’m convinced they will go for an alternative source.

As things stand perhaps they could have another two or three aircraft (in addition to the 4) – the capacity gap being made up of long haul aircraft. I suppose one could also argue that the right thing will be to take the reduction in capacity as we have yet to see how the current customer base of flysaa.com will react to the LCC- I’m very sure there will be a migration by some- but Im not sure if all of them will go- particularly the SME customer segment which is growing by the day.

I don’t forsee any need for concern at this point among the 800 crew- where it could be argued that we were under resourced in any case. If more aircraft do go over then the increased demands placed on the long haul fleet will necessitate an increase in the crew compliment which I suppose would come from the guys currently on the 800’s. The only negative to the pilot body would probably be some guys not wanting to fly long haul?

My 2(Zim) cents worth!

[journeyman]

Deskjockey,
Your post makes perfect sense - especially the "In terms of aircraft to the LCC- its all about which part of the business can make more out of the asset" bit.

Remember the days of Flightstar and the crystal glasses and stainless steel cutlery - a nice idea but at the end of the day, on the short domestic routes, people generally just want to get to the other end as quickly as possible. Yes, there will always be a small niche for the Krug and caviar brigade, but as has been so patently proved the world over, LCCs work!

So then, in light of what has been said, if you had one 738 to give to an operator to turn a profit (on the same route structure), who would you choose? The high cost base guys or the ones that don't give away free beer, don't give away free anything, pay their crews less and probably argue over 2 cents for a fortnight but still get the pax to destination with equal efficiency/frequencies?

If the answer is the latter, why just give them one 738 - give them 20!

PS I know I'm over-simplyfing the situation, but I'm sure you get the gist of it.

[Deskjocky]

journeyman,

If the LCC can generate more revenue than mainline with the aircraft, then there will be no argument at all- the point I’m trying to make here is that currently the domestic and the regional route network (who use the 800’s) are the main revenue drivers for SAA at the moment- we are talking profit here for the first 6 months of the year in the hundreds of millions of rands- my question is can the LCC make more than this- especially given the fact that they have no regional routes? Remember its all about the cost to revenue ratio…low costs but equally low revenue….. The removal of aircraft from mainline to the LCC has a fundamental effect on both the cost base as well as the revenue generating capability of mainline- its all about balance. From November mainline will do the same job with a lower cost base (4 less aircraft)- so the LCC has already generated dividends.

I think the ideal number of aircraft to send to the LCC will be about 7 to 8- after that mainline will make more money out of them than the LCC. Im not saying the LCC will not do well- not at all- their future is bright……orange!

[fluffyfan]

DJ I am not convinced, I still think the 800 is the wrong aircraft for the job and clearly so do the competition they want the LCC to prove how they intend making a profit with this aircraft, they must have a good reason for wanting this they have been in the LCC game a while now.

Yes they are putting 186 or so seats in the LCC aircraft, however they are getting rid of 30 something business class seats, I can’t see how they are going to make more money. Was chatting to a knowledgeable person the other day, the main cost to the LCC is the aircraft lease and apparently they need to reduce the cost per seat by R80 to be successful, the cost saving per seat from the lower paid crews is just R8 so there is no way in hell in my opinion they will succeed.

This whole LCC thing is built on a shaky foundation, firstly I don’t see how they are going compete with the competition using 800's I think a new hole will be torn into SAA from the competions board. Secondly apparently they require the crew to do six legs a day with 20 min turn arounds.......Impossible, it takes 15-20 min for 157 passengers just to get off an 800, I wonder if the genius’s have even thought of looking at the brake cooling charts. Thirdly the whole thing is run by decrepit old over 60's who are doing this for pocket money, and young inexperienced F/O's neither who have flown an 800 before, horrific rumours of substandard training, the old boys signing themselves out with 30 min sim sessions etc, apparently the SAA training section is trying to distance themselves as far as possible from this set up for this reason, the 800 is not an old mans aircraft, how long do you think the old boys will be flying six legs a day in a SA summer before giving it up as a bad joke, these old boys last flew long range aircraft in which they slept half the time, these same old boys used to do 6 - 8 legs a month now you are asking them to do that in a day...............so when they do give up, who is going to replace them? Certainly not some of the F/O's they have employed, in fact none of the F/O's they have employed.

I may be wrong, it’s my opinion but I can’t see how it’s going to work

[Ketek400]

Ryanair does the low cost thing in 800''s! Why not in SA? It is all about getting the most out of the crew and aircraft. Those who can not stand the pace will fall behind.

I think it will work! My humble thoughts.

[fluffyfan]

Ketek400 thats exactly the same thing I said to this "knowledgable person" and was given a good answer and if could remember half the explanation I would repeat it, but the basic reply to me was that Ryanair has far lower leasing costs due to a multitude of reasons.....something about international aircraft finance and leasing, blah blah that sort of thing

I would like to see the new LCC work, but as I said earlier its built on very shaky foundations and its the wrong aircraft, ask yourself why Kulula, and 1time are not flying around in $45 Million USD aircaft (per aircraft that is)

[Deskjocky]

Fluffy, the 800 is the right aircraft to use no question. Whoever says you cant make money out of new metal is seriously misinformed. Currently even SAA makes money on its current domestic route network despite the fact that yields are 30% lower than they were when the fleet was originally introduced into service. Imagine what the LCC can achieve.

The LCC costs are 40% lower than SAA's so not sure where you get 8 rand per seat- perhaps that just relates to the crew cost. Don’t fixate over this- there are savings all over the show when you get into it, just being a legacy carrier costs you money- distribution costs/ revenue accounting costs/ data management costs/licence fees etc etc the list is endless (Im not even talking HR costs!!!) If you want to be an international airline then these costs are a day to day reality. Fortunately a lot of them are variable and so if you can segment your customer base (the current strategy) then you can side step a lot of them thereby being able to offer lower fares. That’s why Kulula is not a pure LCC- they are selling a lot of their inventory via travel agents and their GDS’s – the most expensive channel you can use (even if you don’t offer commission- which by the way Kulula do)

Why aren’t 1Time and Comair and Nationwide buying 800’s?- they cant afford it- its cheaper to buy clapped out MD’s and 737/2/3/4/5’s or what ever is sitting in the desert or what ever Qantas/BA doesn’t want anymore than it is to buy new metal. Goodness CE still operates 4 727-200’s!! Crikey!!! I’ve said this before- herein lies the making of their own downfall- particularly CE and 1T , perhaps Comair to a limited extent, these guys specialize in being the last operator of an aircraft before it gets scrapped- Comair has already seen the writing on the wall and are looking for newer metal.

Am I in favour of the lCC getting the whole fleet- hell no, there is a good balance in terms of market segmentation and I feel that sits at between 7 and 8 aircraft. Do they need more than this? Definitely, when? Who knows- but I can tell you that every aircraft that moves off SAA’s books for no decline in revenue is doing mainline a favour- and if that aircraft is then profitably engaged then the benefit is amplified even further. The LCC will grow, but this will not be allowed to happen at the expense of mainline- they know this already and have factored it into their plans.

[T Hairy Henry]

Ryanair average 160 pax on their 189 seat 800's. Where airport infrastructure allows, they average 20 minutes per turn. If its takes you 15-20 min just to disembark 157 passengers off your 800's, maybe you should consider opening the back door!! There have also been several occasions, at the more efficient airports, where we have turned 156 seats A319's in 15 minutes.

It's all about training and infrastructure. And when I say training I’m not just talking about crew. You need to work with the ground handlers too to make sure they are being trained to do these types of aircraft turn.

Airport infrastructure is also an important part of this. Ditch the jet bridges and coaches; create pre board zones areas, etc etc etc.

And finally; ditch allocated seating!!

[fluffyfan]

DJ you undoubtedly know more than me on this subject, a lot of what I say comes from rumour and, so I don’t know what is right and what is not when it comes to the financial stuff for the LCC, I have always said the others LCC operators need a wake up call they are forever suing SAA and wining about unfair practices while all the while continuing with there own shady practices.

I just cant shake the feeling that something is not right, the crew problems i.e. there training, the old captains, the 20 min turn-arounds (JHB International is so congested at the moment if a pidgon farts on the apron there is a 10 - 20 delay so good luck to the new LCC), I cant argue with you on the profit or loss that its going to make but some well informed people in the union don’t seem to think its going to work so well, maybe they are wrong, I think the marketing value of a new LCC and bright orange aircraft will have a very positive effect on the public and I am sure every aircraft will fly 100% full like almost every airline is flying now on the CT, DUR routes.

Too many questions, too much secrecy, its all a big unknown

T Hairy Henry I agree 20 min turn arounds can be done, at certain airports here the back door is used and it does take a lot less time to disembark, but you are talking Europe, and I am talking Africa, things here dont tend to run as smooth here as they do there, and 20 min turn arounds are probably fine for most airfields in europe with there low density altitude its a different story in terms of brake cooling when you consider JHB 5550ft and 30+ deg C

[Ketek400]

Let us hope the LCC works out for our fellow pilots joining them! If it does not, the market would be a mess with jobless pilots with good experience.

[fluffyfan]

The only thing creating a mess in my opinion is the over 60's group of pilots who happily occupy command seats in the other airlines after they have retired from SAA, they are flying for pocket money to subsidize there pensions, they have no interest in the welfare of the likes of Nationwide, Mango....whoever, they are a greedy bunch of indifiduals who move into and airline, change the rules hire there buddies and block the route to promotion, they care nothing for the likes of you and me and they give nothing back, they have created more problems than any BEE programme has so far done.

This may seem a bit harsh but I hear it time and time again from my buddies in these airlines, how much do these people wish to take? when will they ever have enough? are they ever going to give something back, do you think a FO in Mango will ever get command? I seriously doubt it, those jobs are reserved for ex SAA over 60's, now to me that is stuffing up the job market.

[LongJohnThomas]

Well said matey
Could'nt have been said any better......:ok:

[Shrike200]

....whoever, they are a greedy bunch of indifiduals who move into and airline, change the rules hire there buddies and block the route to promotion, they care nothing for the likes of you and me and they give nothing back, they have created more problems than any BEE programme has so far done.

Well, that is a bit harsh. They do actually give experience, time, effort etc back. Your point is valid however, but they are nice people in general. I think they just grew up and progressed in a different age though, one which wasn't quite so aggressively competitive in terms of jobs. I don't think they realise just how cut throat it is at the bottom, and how valuable opportunities are for the younger generation. I mean, if you loved flying, and you still could - wouldn't you still want to fly? I know I would. I'd also prefer having these guys around to biased, racist policies anyday. That is, if there was a choice.

And just to be clear - I am one of those directly affected by these people right now. I'm just trying to be objective.

[FUG]

T Hairy Henry I agree 20 min turn arounds can be done, at certain airports here the back door is used and it does take a lot less time to disembark, but you are talking Europe, and I am talking Africa, things here dont tend to run as smooth here as they do there, and 20 min turn arounds are probably fine for most airfields in europe with there low density altitude its a different story in terms of brake cooling when you consider JHB 5550ft and 30+ deg C
Turn arounds are easy achieve - despite what some airlines believe there is no science to it, you get the passengers off through every exit available, clean in 6 minutes (or clean as much as you can in 6 minutes) and start boarding again. The difficult part (in JNB in particular) is all the other :mad: you have to deal with - ATC delays and hold, waiting for parking bays, getting busses across the taxi way etc etc. All of these aspects together make 20 or 30 minute turn arounds very difficult.

[Yossarian]

You are dealing with Africa here. If the infrastructure can be changed and trained to achieve these quick turnarounds, then kudos! Old boys network is good for bringing the experience level up at an operation where levels may be lacking but not if these old guys are going to be replaced directly by their senior mates, thus blocking the progression of the FOs through the ranks.

Also, if rumour is true, and these ac are leased at such exorbitant rates then where is the win. Money can be made with new ac when all the factors are lined up; min cost ac, max hour pilots, quick turns thus max utilization, low overheads etc. Are all these factors being met. If the ac you are using costs a fortune, does scrimping on the salary even begin to cover this. Witness Southwest.