Crime in SA

[learboys]

How will this impact on avaition down South, was in London news paper today "Independant" www.crimexposouthafrica.org (http://www.crimexposouthafrica.org). This doesn't look good to say the least. Abslotuely shocking!!!:(

[Shrike200]

Yeah well, it's a collection of the worst, and thus perhaps an extreme view, but that's what happens down here I suppose. We read about it in the papers each day, take precautions, and hope nobody we care about gets hit. I get the impression (rightly or wrongly, it's just my impression) that government seems to perceive crime as a 'white' problem (or something else which makes it seem less important to them than it really is), and thus aren't running around making it a big priority to do very much about it (except tell people who complain to leave!) - this website is perhaps the result of that impression that some of people have, and the feeling that alternative measures are needed to bring pressure to bear on them. After all, our votes are basically useless, they have no need to do anything that we want them to do. They'll automatically be re-elected come what may in the next election, regardless of their performance.

Ultimately, a negative perception abroad is bad for growth here, and thus the transport industry as a whole, but tourist numbers are still (reportedly) on the rise. So we have yet to feel some kind of crunch, but it may come if enough bad publicity is generated.

[Beech19]

Unfortunatly i think that it is a very sad reality in SA that this is not just an extreme view. The sad thing is that it is so high that only a few stories, maybe one's with a more exciting twist make the newspapers. A friend of mine from europe, worked for a few weeks as a doctor in Jhb gen hospital. They were utterly shocked to say the least. I was told that they saw more in 1 night then they would have seen in a european hospital in years. Shooting's, stabbings, rape etc.
Crime in SA is disgustingly high. But it's not just that crime is high, it's the violant crime that is high.
And unfortunatly our own goverment don't seem to put this high on there list of priorities. It is more important to rename airports!!!
One gov minister was even quoted as saying that if the whites don't like the crime rate in SA than they should pack there bags and leave.:uhoh:
Well buddy i'm stickin around, so fix it!!
I think that for too long SA has been guilty of ignoring how bad things are, because we figure that the good side far outways the bad side. Sure, we have great weather, good beaches etc. but come on. Is it worth putting up with this crap? These days when foreiners ask me what SA is like i tell them exactly what i think. That it's a beautiful country, but there's a strong chance you'll be hit by crime, maybe robbed if you're having a bad day raped or killed. But come over, we have gr8 beer. Sound harsh? Maybe. But how do we fix this problem if we don't face it? And how do we convince the politicians that's it's a major problem unless it affects them? Tourist revenue is a lot of ash for them you know! You're probally safer walking home to your crew house in afghanistan.
Most of the SA pilot's reading this site have or are contract pilots who have been based in what is supposed to be pretty dangerous places, yet we take more precautions living at home.
Our good police officer's don't seem to get enough support from the Gov, and the bad one's are to corrupt to want to change anything. :ugh:
I'm a South African, and i love my country. But that doesn't mean i have to like whats happening.
How this affects aviation in the long run is pretty obvious, one day our flow of tourist's will become a trickle as they move onto safer destinations, maybe Bagdad??!!:mad:

[Heli_Sticktime]

Anyone that reads a newspaper or watches the news, or reads the online news(as much as either of them sometimes have bad reporting on aviation:oh: ) will know what is going on in SA. The Argus on Monday this week was the worst I have seen in a long time, 3 pages just on crime, hijacking.

Learboy the site is good in that it shows what a lot of papers are too scared to publish. But! As a business owner myself I think he is going about things the wrong way by trying to persude tourists to stop visiting SA. All he is doing is destroying an already delicate economy:ugh:

I also don't agree with his site takeing cash for sms's sent. If his intention is to highlight crime then don't try and make money out of misery, do it as a civic duty:confused:

[Fliterisk]

HERE WE GO AGAIN!!!!!

Everyday I recieve on my pc emails of petitions about crime. The worst part about it is that they are always sent from Ex pats. Its getting tedious!

WHATS THE POINT? There is no secret that crime is a huge issue, there is no secret that the government is losing the battle, there is no secret that its brutal and violent.

However, resources are limited, we have huge social problems, we have major imbalances (wether you like it or not), and the issues are not going away by whining about it with stupid petitions, :ugh: :ugh: websites from someone who likes to think he is on a crusade - and clearly generating money by shouting it from the roof tops. Discussion will not help, but actions will.

The World Cup will help. Not only the few months of it, but the years of publicity and positivity from all who contribute. Economic regeneration will help, not ex pats who continuously try and justify leaving the country by ranting from London and the like....:=

Direct foreign investment will help, we cannot look internally to solve the problem.... there is no money and it is impossible to do. THE SOONER WE ALL REALISE IT, THE BETTER. We need to attract investment, and work around the issues to solve the problems.

This is going to be a big thread, because its an issue, but you have to ask yourself when you are finished reading the negativity and the whining, are you better off? Have you made a difference? If the answer is no, then why read it? Why bother spending all the time listening to the likes of Mr Neil Watson? Why send him an sms at R3 (the cost is lower)? Whats your state of mind like now, and would it be better if you spent the same time, meditating, smelling the roses, or making a difference? What EXACTLY HAS BEEN ACHIEVED?

The only thing which is certain is that crime will not get better if there is no investment. Its that simple. Turn it away and wallow in your misery!:ok:

[JG1]

QUOTE "How this affects aviation in the long run is pretty obvious, one day our flow of tourist's will become a trickle as they move onto safer destinations like Bagdad!!!"

At an average of 60 Iraqis being killed per day in Iraq, makes it about 22000 per year. Which is the same as the annual murder rate in South Africa.:uhoh:

Its time this government fixed this problem.

As Shrike says, our votes count for nothing, we just finance the government. They are not responsible to us though, they are responsible to the millions of ignorants who make up the black masses who would never vote for anyone else except the ANC.

So, what to do? We can't stop paying tax, or the system will throw us in jail.
This internet site www.crimexposouthafrica.org is a good way of fighting back - it actually stings.

A lot of the crime is comitted by illegal immigrants - coming over at present from Zim at a rate of 1000's a day - why? Because the ANC Government allowed the Zim problem to get worse and worse and did nothing to stop it. Now there is a huge humanitarian crisis on our border causing us a massive headache in terms of crime, deportations etc.

The problem in SA is that the citizens whom have a clue how to solve these problems are in the minority and are not heeded, whilst the majority are clueless as they struggle to keep warm at night and fill their stomachs.

Its the classic case of the blind leading the blind whilst the enlightened are tied up in the corner with a bag over their heads:sad:

[JG1]

Fliterisk - says "we cannot look internally to solve the problem.... there is no money and it is impossible to do. THE SOONER WE ALL REALISE IT, THE BETTER."

Utter rubbish. Of course there is money available. Its just being wasted on idealistic tosh such as renaming places. Its being hugely wasted on supporting teetering organizations crippled by faulty affirmative action policies, such as SAA, to the tune of R6 billion a year. Its being misappropriated all over the place.

The government need to, as a direct priority, allocate a huge sum to beef up the police force. Police stations having no vehicles is not an option. Corrupt police because they are getting paid peanuts is not the way to go. Collecting traffic fines by camera instead of having police vans patrolling is not effective policing.

And as for saying "THE SOONER WE ALL REALISE IT, THE BETTER" you are no better than the Minister who tells us if we don't like it, leave. You are sticking you head in the sand like an ostrich and if you continue to take that line, your exposed a$$ will be grass - sooner rather than later - at the hands of the criminals you are condoning.:yuk:

[Smells like...]

Heli sticktime i don't think that turning away tourist's is a solution to crime, and it does hurt the economy. However it is our responsibility to let any visitor, to South Africa, know what the risks are by coming here. Because unfortunatly South Africa has become a dangerous place to visit.

And Fliterisk, you are right in saying that resources are limited. However there are alot of nations out there that are a lot poorer than South Africa, who are a lot more desperate for investment than we are, who's crime rates are a lot lower.

Perhaps South Africa should try make itself more investor and tourist friendly by sorting the crime out first. And even though i do not agree with R3 sms's and email petetions, that our goverment just ignores so it's a complete waste of time, i believe that websites like his are vitally important to get the truth out there. The goverment, i'm sure, hate websites like this because it exposes there short comings. Did you read the page on Police corruption!!!
Without websites like this crime stats can be hidden. And probally would be.
Even as a south african, living in SA, i was shocked at some of what i read. The truth be told, our goverment obviously does not care about peoples safety and the rule of law, wich makes life cheap, and therefore South Africa doesn't really deserve investment because by disreguarding crime we haven't earned it.

After all we are a democracy & we voted them into power.

[Fliterisk]

My point is JGI do you feel better now? Are you sitting there thinking wow, I have made a difference now and I feel better! Because if you are then well done to you. My point is do you really think that the government gives a #@$% about what you think, particualry if you are sitting in London, sweating your :mad: off.

My guess is no. The only difference you can make is by making it happen. Bring in the money, the investment and the rest will take care of itself. Let the tourists make their own decisions. Hell, I would hardly say Mexico City is the safest place in the world, but you dont hear Mexicans continuously whining about their problems like South AFRICANS do.
:= := :=

Whining is the easy way out, and now this idiot Neil Watson wants to get paid for it. Do you seriously think that whining is making a difference? GIMME A BREAK!

[JG1]

Fliterisk - no money? You are an intelligent guy, judging from your past posts, with a balanced view on things.... you can't be serious when you say there is no money available and we should rely on foreign investment only. Sure, we need foreign investment badly, but before we start touting for foreign water to pour in our bucket, we should fix the leaks in the bucket.

Take one speed camera on the motorway – lets assume it catches one speedster ever 5 minutes, at an average fine rate of R300. That camera makes R3600/hr. Over a weekly period, (14 hrs/day, which is excluding the spare-traffic times at night) that’s R350 000 a week. Monthly that’s enough to pay for four new police vans and twenty four cops to man them on three 8 hour shifts a day for a month. Where are they? Certainly not at the Rivonia offramp:(

[JG1]

Sure, whining isn't the way out but it helps more than pretending its all OK when its pretty far from OK.

What you call whining is legimate complaining and communication between humans to discover who is like minded amongst them. This then leads to action. Do you think Watson did this on his own?

I think Watson has a good idea - to publicise the unacceptable crime rate in SA to the rest of the world. Because as a previous poster said - most of it is ignored these days - only those murders with a sicker twist are in the paper.

So, good on Watson - I have just sent him 2 SMS's - he needs funding, lets hope he is the vanguard of an avalanche of dissent against the useless SA government.:}

[Fliterisk]

Interseting point JGI. Your argument holds true in theory.

However, have you heard how many speeding fines are outstanding, and how few South Africans pay their fines? I am willing to bet many of those are commenting on Neil Watsons site right now. Where's their meaningful contribution?:yuk:

I heard on 702 the other day moaning about officers who accept bribes... amazing that they are solely responsible, didnt someone PAY the bribe? The irony of it is was the someone phoned in complaining about it, AND HE HAD JUST PAID THE BRIBE. HE WAS ACTUALLY BREAKING THE LAW. Surely it holds true, if we stopy paying the bribe and report this behaviour then the problem goes away? Well, firstly we need to stop breaking the law - speed limits etc, and perhaps Metro cops will not have such easy targets? Maybe?:confused: Maybe we have a culture of law breaking and while the extent differs, and its part of all of our culture.

Its a chiken and an egg. It starts at the bottom with us. If we are not doing everything we can, then surely we havent earned the right to complain about it? Surely?

I also realise that this argument will go round and round and will never come to a conclusion, so I respect your opinion as I hope you do mine. But please ask yourself if you have broken a law, if you are doing what you can, and if you have really earned the right to moan, and what will be achieved by moaning rather than doing?:hmm:

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

The only way forward for South Africa in its battle against crime, as in any primitive society, is to bring back capital punishment and extend its application.
The vast majority of that element of the population which commit crimes has no wish to be stretched and then buried in unhallowed ground.:ooh:

[Smells like...]

Fliterisk, help me out here, i'm a bit confused. Why exactly do you think that the goverment will change it's opinion on crime if we get more investment. If we got a lot of investment surely they would think "well everything must fine and dandy if people are investing in SA"

[Smells like...]

The problem is cheetah, they aren't even using the current punishment on the criminals... They just let them run free!!!

[Smells like...]

FT, it's not just whining, it's being critical. Every revolution and positive change started with a bit of whining... It grows from there.:ok:

[Q4NVS]

Food for Thought:

Our ANC Government will NEVER stand up to the Mugabe regime, or his people!

Because, during the previous era (some 12+ years ago) and MUCH longer, they were actually harboured by Mugabe himself, during their fight against the then Apartheid Government of SA.

Thus, with the amount of Illegal Immigrants currrently in SA (from Zimbabwe alone), quoted to be in the region of 5 000 000 :eek: , our system is overloaded and the poor law abiding citizens of SA (no matter what their ethnical background), doomed.

This surely is a big problem, but unless we stand up and take a stand against our brothers (or them against theirs), we will after 2010, slide back to becoming part of the African Dream: ANARCHY!

Another point (which I simply do not undestand):
450 people killed in 3 weeks of the latest Middle East crisis = 7800 per year.

That is only a THIRD of what happens in SA year-on-year-on-year, but never have all the World Leaders discussed this at the G8 Summit, or made Emergency trips across the Atlantic etc. to try and sort this out... :oh:

Why? Because it does not make for good Electioneering and Profiteering :=

[JG1]

Fliterisk, for sure, you have to keep your own house in order - it starts there.

Problem lies with the majority of our population - they don't see things as you and I do. Do you litter? When you have finished your bag of chips do you throw it on the ground? I think not - neither do I. But look to the majority of our population - chips/pie in mouth, wrapper on ground, not a thought. Which is a very good indicator of their state of mind as regards to pulling together as a team and starting good things with the individual. As well as their level of civic awareness.

As far as bribing cops is concerned - I will pay a bribe if asked and then I will report the cop, to stamp out such corruption.

To all of you who are sick and tired of crime - help Watson with his site - lets see if it works. Send him R3.00, its what you hand out to 'parking attendants' daily anyway. Give this site support - if you are a victim of crime, add to the site.

Let this site and others like it become a living, growing tree - a thorn tree in the side of the Minister of Safety and Security:D

[Beech19]

Couldn't agree more JG1. He needs our support, just check this out.

http://crimexposouthafrica.org/files/AntiCrimeWebsiteSabotaged.jpg

B19

[Contract Dog]

FS, it is not a case of aimless whining, WE ARE ALL TIRED of this cr#p and it is a briliant idea to expose it, we cant go on like chickens with our heads cut off running around blind and then expecting people to pour in money to a government that is going to steal 1/2 of it on kickbacks and bribes to get a job done, and then whats left will get stolen from you anyway??? like J said, patch the holes 1st! Are you going to put pax an a stuffed a/c and hope they dont notice? same thing, why tell people to give SA money when they will just get burnt? We need to expose this stuff so people who can, can fix it. and if investers stop, it will start to hurt the right "wrong" people and they can sort it out.

ever been to Uganda? guy with a gun on every street corner, criminals get shot on site no questions asked, look how much investment they are getting! not that PC but hell, it works.

[bathtub200]

Fliterisk - ----- the problems with us whites here in South Africa are , we all have found our little comfort zones , most of us anyway.Do we really give a dam what happens to the poor farmers that get raped or killed ?---- highly unlikely , lets be honest with ourselves as long as our loved ones are not involved , we think that it happened to someone else.
Us whites dont have any backbone to go out there and make a difference and maybe we should take a long and hard look at the French and see how they dented their leaders egos.I dont agree how they went about it but it made a difference and I have not heard or read that they shot themselves in the foot as a result of their actions.:D
We cant stand back and watch all this crap go on and on.:=
Remember , we are not in the same boat as the ex-rhodies , when the excretion hits the fan , we have no where to go.

[HUGS]

Well gentlemen I'm happy someone is sticking his neck out and doing something about the crime here. This website is excellent and we should support it. I'm saying that because we should fight crime ourselves in SA and expose the corruption here. We have to do it ourselves and not depend on foreign investment. I have an investment opportunity worth over a billion rands over the next 5 years from foreign investors but the question at the top of the list from them is CRIME! They arent going to risk there money and I dont blame them, Do YOU?

[6-String]

Good website! Hot topic. Terrifying!

There are various courses of action available to those of us who don't like what's going on. You simply have to choose one.

I chose to leave.

[Shrike200]

I think the point of the website is not to whine pointlessly - it's to expose the situation to OTHER people - *we*, as South Africans, are painfully aware of it, to us it's preaching to the choir. Logically then, it's intent (as it states) is to try to inform potential tourists, and let them decide - this ultimately hits the government in a way that we cannot - in their pocket, by possibly lowering income generated by tourism. In that way, whether I agree with it or not, I logically cannot see it as 'pointless whining', ie it has some purpose other than plain hand-wringing.

As to those who say we need the world cup, bringing people here now, *as the country stands*, please consider this (doomsday, I know!) scenario:

Tens (possibly hundreds) of thousands of people who have never been to SA (or Africa for that matter) arrive on our doorstep - they are greeted by a jampacked JHB Int (Or, confusingly to some of them, OR Tambo Int, whatever the case may be). Too few customs/immigration officers are available, and queues are long. Baggage is delayed, lost, and stolen. Upon departing the airport, violent road accidents claim some of them. That is, those lucky enough to find transport. While wandering the streets in this new land at night, looking for a good time, some are beaten, robbed, or even murdered for their cellphones, (or something similarly trivial). Attending the games, a lack of organisation is evident. Minimal information is available regarding the numerous changes made to schedules etc due to last minute changes, having failed to meet some deadlines on construction/infrastructure. Our monopoly-strangled telecoms industry struggles, before failing under the load of international traffic caused by interest from abroad.

This is obviously a ridiculously extreme case, and I would far rather have everything go well. But each example I mention there, and more that I didn't, should certainly not sound completely impossible to South Africans. Now, consider the impression the visitor leaves SA with: Will it be "There's no F^&*&^ way I'm going there again, I'll tell everyone I know what a failure it is!", or something like that? I believe that will kill investment in SA, and Africa. All it would do is reinforce foreigners opinions that Africa is a money sinkhole, not fit to invest time, effort, or money in.

What we do now can perhaps shape global impressions regarding SA's (and Africa's, to a certain degree even) ability to perform. Do we seriously want to run the risk of blowing all of that?

So, people who highlight problem areas, in my opinion, are helping to draw attention to areas that desperately need attention. They're helping in the long run. It's not just mindless whining. We may be blase about it, but I can assure you, any horror stories that come out of this event will be remembered for a long time by those involved. They'll tell their friends, who will tell their friends - and that will be a far, far worse blow for tourism than this one little web site.

[learboys]

Filterisk, "Everyday I recieve on my pc emails of petitions about crime. The worst part about it is that they are always sent from Ex pats. Its getting tedious" With that statement you can go to hell!!! It was convienient for the ANC to use the media and news here once apon a time, now the boot is on the other foot, not so nice, is it!!! Another thing my reasons for being here in Europe has got nothing to do with you, Im still a South African, to say the least nobody emailed you this, its a forum(a chat site). You made the choice to read my posting, which if you didn't want to, you shouldn't have. Nobody forced you to. It's called freedom of speech. Typical narrow minded thinking, if you don't like it or can't handle the truth then don't read it, get off the site. In future I suggest you wind your neck in and if you want to have your say, leave the nasty comments out of it.

As for investment I do agree with you, we need it badly down South, but with these kinds of stats, who in their right mind will invest? The Fat Cats (GOV of the day) are doing nothing to stop the crime, and every time they get caught out, or with their pants down they blame it on "Apartheid", so sick of that line!!!!!! and how the "whites" are always to blame, now that's "TEDIOUS". :ugh:

[B Sousa]

This item is drawing a lot of fire on "the other site" also.........

[JG1]

The South African Police, whose task it is to fight this crime, was the primary organisation the ANC wanted fully race representative, as fast as possible. Constables became Colonels overnight, remember the stories in the paper.

The result is our country's most major problem today - unchecked crime and a corrupt police force. Completely confirms that Affirmative Action is a completely flawed policy.:yuk:

Yet they take no notice, they will continue this headlong slide into the standard chaotic African mess..

[Shrike200]

Yeah, I remember the cries of "There will be no lowering of standards!" Yet there clearly have been, across the board. But now, to comment and criticize is somehow 'racist'? I don't get it - what part of "You're the public servant, and I'm the taxpayer paying YOUR salary, so I expect some form of competent performance" don't they get?! That isn't a "black" or "white" thing, it's a "we're not idiots, and you suck at your job" thing!

[Kernel]

I'm getting to the stage whereby I'm just about ready to quit my cushy airline job and work contracts again in Sudan and Baghdad. Felt far safer there...

[helldog]

From an outsiders point of view here, having worked with many South Africans and spent some time in South AFrica, the view is that I would not want to live there. Every South African I know has had some experience with crime. By that I mean either they or somene close to them has been hijacked or robbed or has had to shoot an intruder or something, crazy. You cant put stats on that, but you can get a general view by just listening to people. I dont think you can downplay the problem at all. Good on that dude for starting the website.

[Fliterisk]

Learboys.... firstly, I think perhaps you overeacted. I said "I recieve emails" not "when I read your comment". It was not aimed at you, although I can see why you took it like it was. I get bombarded by ex pats living overseas telling me how bad it is. Surely you can see my frustration??? I apologise since it was definitely not aimed at you.:= :=

Secondly, I see that I am one voice among many other views, and that's ok. Because I never wished to cause controversy, rather express another (mine) viewpoint.

So, for me, I am perhaps pessemistic. I have spent many hours complaining and nothing got done. I have spent many hours moaning, and nothing got done. Am I sitting with my head in the sand, perhaps, but then thats a decision I have had to conciously make. Since nothing else worked.

I too have investigated living in Aus and believe I am able to get in. What concerned me was the salaries, the cost of living and going there with little money, I am worried that my kid will be living in a "low class" area there, and I assume that everyone in this country who cares, would leave if there wasnt a cost. So there's a trade off.

My point is simple and perahps been looked at a little out of context. I seriously dont believe what Neil Watson is doing is going to work, and I also dont believe that it will do anything more than make those living in SA more despondant and do more harm than good. Am I suggesting that we sit and do nothing. Yes, well sort of.

I am suggesting we try and focus on the positive things, that which we have control over, and try and uplift the country via the back door. We have to look at the positives. We live here, we earn money here, and with so much negativity around us already we are going to be pushed further down into the pit of misery! Because perhaps by South African's putting their heads in the sand is a coping mechanism, nothing more. South Africans need to do something and constant moaning about it is not going to help. Surely a fund raising effort to help AIDS orphans is positive, not to fund the bearer of the bad news we are all aware of already. I tried to access some of his links, and none of them worked.... I also noticed the amount of "fund raising links", which ALL WORKED! My opinion is that this site will do more harm than good.

I might be a coward, but perhaps its a question of chosing my battles. I am acutely aware of the ones I am unable to win, and I want to live wherever I do, trying to focus on that which is positive.

It makes me feel proud to have the world cup in SA (right or wrong), it makes me happy to see tourism on the increase. What worries me is that without all this, there is no reason to keep the Kruger Park operational, invest billiions in infrastructure, and uplift the spirit of all South Africans. Without it, you will still have the crime, you will still have the poverty and worst of all, there is no Spotlight on the masses sticking to their pledge of democracy!!!:ok:

[Beech19]

Fliterisk i don't think that we should look at South African ex-pats living overseas as any less South African. There are probally a lot of reasons as to why they are there at the moment. For one reason perhaps, just to get themselves and their families away from danger. Personally if i was a father my first duty would be my families safety. It does not mean that they have abanded SA.

I'm sure that if our high crime rate did not exist then a lot of them would never have left. And if things get sorted out (hell may freeze over first) then they, the one's overseas who are concerned about the crime, would come back.

[learboys]

Apology accepted Fliterisk:). Look this site is not what we as South Africans living in or abroad really want to hear about, we like to think SA is a beautiful country with so much going for it, but the reality is we have serious problems. We SA living abroad are ambassadors here in Europe for SA. Most folks I meet are scared to go to SA and I have always told them SA as any country has its good and bad elements and you don't go walking down certain streets in London or Paris at night, the same applies to SA. Of late SA has been creeping into the news, and the sad part is how SA folks even behave here in Europe. Fighting in pubs, road rage, the Taliban moving through JHB International, not to long ago a Bunch of SA boys tried their own tricks in the UK, taking a women in broad daylight, abducting her, then raping her, they were caught on CCTV from start to finish, just to mention a few of the headlines and now this. The news and media here is very big and when stories make headlines, they stay on the news for days, then we hear about it 24/7. Saffers here have to live with these disgraceful events. It's not nice hearing about a site like this at all and is rather worrying for all of us, but it's making a point, if we like it or not, denying the fact, is surely the wisdom of a fool. It is a serious issue, and it will harm the country. The government had better start addressing these issues very quickly, Tabo's silent approach to events like this and to Zimbabwe's situation is not doing anybody any good, and as President of SA it's high time he starts displaying leadership qualities and starts leading his country. Start tackling the crime problems. Blaming whites and looking for all sorts of excuses for SA current position is not going to help. He needs to stop dividing the country with his racist policies, admit that crime is a huge problem, pick up his poor performance and start getting the country behind him and sorting out and do what needs to be done. If they choose to turn a blind eye on these issues, the world cup will surely be a disaster, not to mention how the tourist industry will suffer as well as aviation.
I think the government has lost the plot, they have sabotaged this site to stop it from running, but its on mirror sites so his still getting his message across, dirty play (makes the government look stupid and shows they have something to hide), I wonder why every South Africans even bothered to vote, this is a violation of free speech, its not democracy, not with death threats, it a dictatorship. The government is supposed to represent the people and work for the people not the other way around. Exposing the government's poor performance is not a crime, it's a democratic right and to voice you opions be it good or bad is a freedom of speech. It happens here daily, and the governments here get exposed and held accountable for their actions, something which doesn't happen down south. Zimbabwe's dictatorship is starting to wear off on South Africa, with the way the government is handling this situation. What's it going to be next, is Watson going to serve jail time, or be investigated by the Scorpions and some dirty trick pulled on him, to expose him as something his not, for voicing his and many others opions.

Leaving the problem as you suggest and only foccussing on the positive is a total unjust way of dealing with the real problem at hand, this is a reality which involves people loosing their lives and love ones, be it South Africans(white or black) or Europeans it does'nt matter. Criminals have no respect for the law or for human life in South Africa. It is not acceptable which ever way you choose to look at it, to aknowledge crime and do nothing about it is the biggest crime of them all.

[PAXboy]

First: I have had family in ZA for 180 years, family and school friends still live there (PTA + CPT) and I visit regularly. I lived in Pretoria from ages 9~18. Next trip, this October.

Second: This statement is going to be unpopular ...
The violence cannot be fixed by the government.
The violence cannot be fixed by the ANC.
The violence cannot be fixed by anyone.

I have thought for some ten years that: the quiet transition from the old to the new, that was effected in the early 1990s by Frederick de Klerk and Nelson Mandela, was utterly brilliant but that it has repercussions that will be reaped for years to come. Ultimately, that historic quiet transition of regime will be very noisy.

Mankind is not renowned for doing things quietly. One simple example: A large group of citizens in North America decided that they wanted independence from the UK (a not unreasonable choice!), so they fought a war to do so. The American Revolutionary War (1775–1783), also known as the American War of Independence. Less than a hundred years later, they fought a Civil War (1861–1865) and only then could they start to find their own feet. Most new countries need a Civil War to bring a balance.

Humans tend only to learn through pain and South Africa did not have that 'big pain'. Instead, they have had - and are having - a long, low level civil war 'lots of small pain'. There are many words written about the theme of 'a blood price'. That is to say, that something acheived with blood will have a certain value and, until that price is paid, then value will not be given to it. It is my suggestion that South Africa has yet to reach that point. Further, that that point is some considerable way off.

If the change of regime had been made with a civil war (as was predicted by so many for so long) then the country would not, now, be experiencing this local violence, for the blood price would have already been paid. The blood would have been let and the anger drained away with it. But it wasn't and so the blood is now being let, albeit in a different way.

It does not count whether the blood is let from white or black, there is no common experience of pain and blood loss for the different racial groups to share. Yes, of course, there is loss of blood and both experience it - but it is not yet large enough for it to have a true common experience.
I consider that the main reason the conflict in Northern Ireland has subsided is that the blood price has been paid and people have seen that it has got nowhere. Other factors are in play, of course. Conversely, in Israel and Lebanon, the blood price has yet to be reached and nothing can stop it. The UN or other groups are powerless - until the blood has been shed. there are countless other examples around the world in the world, past and present.

So ... I think that nothing will change, despite good efforts by many (and I applaud all and every effort). I think that the low level of violence almost 'must' take place, if South Africa is to reach stability. This low level violence may, eventually, break out into a high level - we shall have to see. But ... nothing can stop the violence. How long? If it continues at this low level, another 20 years at the very least.

[james ozzie]

Paxboy raises an interesting point on the "benefits" of strife & war in a country's history. Switzerland is a great example - centuries of peace but no writers, artists or musicians. All they have created cuturally are cuckoo clocks, Alpine horns and yodelling. (OK, OK....)
But I guess given the choice, we would all choose the Swiss model.

[B Sousa]

"All they have created cuturally are cuckoo clocks, Alpine horns and yodelling."

Much nicer to be able to Yodel in the streets instead of having to yell for help that wont come...........
SA is on the way, just a bit slower than the rest of the continent..Ask the millions of zim folks who are now there illegally.


Six String.Below. Thats not my quote, I got it from above by James Ozzie. Also its obvious that Xenophobia has not hurt them.Its probably the safest place in the world to live...A bit expensive also.

[6-String]

"All they have created cuturally are cuckoo clocks, Alpine horns and yodelling."


Uh, don't forget Toblerone and XENOPHOBIA; the latter being an art developed and nurtured to this day in Switzerland!

[point8four]

My question is how many of the posts here are from guys with young families? When you are away from your loved ones on contract/3day london/cape town night stop, what provisions have been made to guarantee you come home to what you left behind? I wonder what will happen in 18 years time when my untanned 21 year old son leaves varsity to enter a job market that doesn't support him as a demographic entity? Hmmmm? We provide for the future as best we can, we pay our taxes, we breeze over the headlines with a "thank goodness it wasn't me" attitude and we wait for better days. We've resigned ourselves to our situation like wildebeest crossing the river to graze the other side. Its dangerous but we'll make it-maybe Bert will get "crocked" before me this year and I'll live to fight another day.
The situation will deteriorate and continue to do so regardless of how many of us cross the river each year. Crime is a business and a lucrative one at that-state of the art and keeping up with developments. Do you think Constable M is going to put himself in harm's way for you for 2grand a month? And if we increase Constable M's mates (constable m squared) will it improve? Haha and ha again-because Constable M knows he can earn an extra 2grand by looking the other way between 8:45 and 9:00pm next tuesday at the Rivonia offramp! Come on chaps!
Dear President Mbeki - please can you stop the crime commencing 01st September this year- regards Citizen X (complete with short haircut, tortoise shell glasses and inspiring speeches)
I wonder if Virgin Nigeria arriving with 300 pax and departing with 36 has done anything to exacerbate the situation(no visa required on fridays) just a rumour, but then again whats a forum for.......

[porridge]

Perhaps we are missing the opportunities for specialist tourism here. Some countries benefit from sex tourism & paedophilia so why not promote murder tourism? For example someone who wants to get rid of an unwanted spouse/business rival/unpleasant neighbour etc could arrange to have that person ‘win’ a vacation in SA and arrange a hit that looks like an everyday hijacking or armed robbery. Take out insurance on the intended victim and it makes it financially attractive.
Perhaps too there is the opportunity to hunt humans for sport, for example the 1932 movie ‘The Most Dangerous Game’, (see also: http://axisofevelknievel.********.com/2006/02/hunting-humans.html ) if it was hunting dangerous criminals instead of innocent people it could be quite popular with the local public observing wealthy tourists doing the job that law is incapable of doing, whilst bringing in the tourist dollars. One could also indulge in a ‘Death Wish’ a la Charles Bronson and go out and rove around in a Beamer armed to the teeth and shoot it out with the criminals attempting to hijack you.
Food for thought?

[Woof etc]

ha, ha

Great ideas Porridge - capitalism at its finest.

Would bring a whole new meaning to the word adventure tourism. Just think of it - we could offer round the world adventure tours.

Day 1. Johhanesburg. Today we meet our tour guide and get issued with bullet proof vests and AK47 automatic weapons. Rest of day free to roam around the CBD waiting for opportunist muggers and to practice using the AK47.

Day 2. Johannesburg. Hi-jacking. One of our favourites. Today we drive around Soweto in a top end BMW and wait to be hijacked - a thrill a minute! In the evening we retire to our hotel to compare kills.

Day 3. Johannesburg: Death wish. Today we will take a ride on an African Minibus taxi. Some of our guests may wish to skip this activity due to the hazards involved. Overnight flight to Baghdad.

Day 4. Baghdad: Arrival at hotel. Meet our tour guide and get issued with Stars and Stripes T shirts with the slogan 'Bush Rocks! Osamas a camel shagger' In the afternoon we will have the opportunity to walk around the downtown area and meet some of the friendly locals. If we are fortunate we may have the opportunity to witness the aftermath of a car bomb.

Day 5. Beiruit.........

[4HolerPoler]

More anecdotal evidence that it's going down the tube:

British pupils attacked in SA

Eleven British school children, who were part of a group on a rugby and netball tour in South Africa, were attacked and robbed of R10 000 and ten cellphones in Honeydew earlier this week, West Rand police said on Saturday.
"The pupils were having a farewell party at a house in Honeydew on Tuesday at about 23:00 when eight men attacked them," said Captain Siphiwe Ndlovu.
The men were armed with two handguns, two knives and two garden spades.
"They assaulted the owner of the house and the children before taking their handbags and cellphones," said Ndlovu. The robbers also took two laptops and a computer and fled the scene on foot. The children did not sustain serious injuries. No shots were fired and the men were still at large, said Ndlovu. The teenagers were part of a group of 42 British school children on a sports tour in South Africa. Four South African children who were also attending the party, were also attacked. The tour group stayed at the Allen Glen High School on the West Rand. The father of one of the South African children, 59-year-old Pierre Francois Boote gave the party for the teenagers before they left for Sun City. He told a British newspaper that the masked robbers charged into the house and forced the children into the lounge. He said one of the British girls, a pupil of the Bishop Stopford School in Northamptonshire, was dragged around by her hair while a firearm was held against her head. :eek: The robbers assaulted Boote with a crow bar, but he still managed to call the Honeydew police. The robbers, however, fled on foot. A Spokesperson for the British High Commissioner in South Africa, Russ Dixon said the children were severely traumatised and received counselling. He said their parents were very worried about them, but the tour would continue as planned. The group was expected to go to Cape Town (do they think it's any safer there?) on Sunday and would return to the UK on August 8.

Scary stuff. But an incident such as this has far more impact when it touches the lives of foreigners rather than the locals.

4HP

[B Sousa]

Wait till 2010.....It will be a Gangster Holiday

[SIC]

With now estimated 7 million illegals in the country it will be an unstoppable tsunami of crime....
Does the government not realise that the biggest single problem this country faces is the fact that everybody else north of the border are on their way over here to the land of milk and honey to come and collect!!???

[SIC]

What we are facing as South Africans is an invasion and nobody seems to care except to comment around the braai that your Zimbabwean gardener is real hard working. ( As a whitey whose forefathers essentially invaded their way in here 300 years ago the irony is not lost on me...)

Dont get me wrong - I have a lot of sympathy for all the displaced people of Africa - but SA can unfortunately not absorb and support literally millions of illegals....

[barryt]

PaxBoy : Your post made for fascinating reading. Thanks. An excellent posting and it makes a lot of sense.

Aside from that, I really also WISH everybody would get off this stupid band-wagon of "the crime is there because of the poverty". And we need investment to cure the poverty and crime. What ABSOLUTE RUBBISH!

The violent crime we are experiencing today has NOTHING to do with poverty. You will NEVER convince me that the AK47 gun-wielding thugs who just yesterday took over the local Shoprite / Checkers grocery store were 3 weeks ago humble decent folk trying to find a job legitimately, but couldn't.

No way. These guys are very organised, and trained (I suspect ex-Umkhonto we Sizwe or Zimbabwe airmy TERRORISTS). And they know crime pays much higher than getting a decent job. Chances are they will easily get away with it in SA. Our police are basically USELESS, and our justice system is in a shambles. They LITERALLY get away with murder, EVERY DAY.

Nobody can tell me that the absolutely HEINOUS crimes committed on farmers etc has ANYTHING to do with poverty!! (Sometimes nothing is stolen in the process).

What absolute bull. :ugh: :ugh:

Bring on the death penalty I say. In fact, lets start having a few public be-headings on Greenmarket Square in Cape Town like they do in Saudi Arabia. All we need is 3 or 4 Saturday afternoons and crime will disappear overnight here. :D :D

To say Saudi Arabia has a "barbaric society" compared to the west or SA is a joke. With the number of people dying of violent crimes in SA, who is REALLY living in a more barbaric society? (Considering perhaps only about 40 be-headings take place per annum in Saudi Arabia, and the offended family is ALWAYS given a choice to overturn the court's ruling in Saudi Arabia. MAN, that is a GOOD system! And just what we need here.)

Off my soapbox...

[Shrike200]

Bring on the death penalty I say. In fact, lets start having a few public be-headings on Greenmarket Square in Cape Town like they do in Saudi Arabia. All we need is 3 or 4 Saturday afternoons and crime will disappear overnight here. :D :D

A lot of people tend to say this, but I reckon the criminals need to fear being caught to fear the death penalty first - right now they're not even being caught, so the death penalty won't do much. You can't kill people that just aren't being arrested and charged properly, the cops would have to have airtight cases to swing the death penalty on a suspect, and right now they couldn't even fight their way out of a wet paper bag, let alone organise a piss-up in a brewery!

[madherb]

The violent crime we are experiencing today has NOTHING to do with poverty.
Fully agree Barryt. I recently spent some time in Zim - poverty is evident, far more so than in SA - but the level and severity of crime is not in the same league as here. We have bred a nation of criminals, and crime begets crime. Easy money, why work when you can get 'money for nothing and your chicks for free' (Apologies to Mark Knopfler)
I felt far safer in Zim at night that most places in SA..........we need a really efficient, well paid, well-armed police force, and some tough judgements to be handed down. And - GET RID OF THE CORRUPTION!!!!!!!!
M

[JetPark]

Madherb is so right........we need to get into a zero tolerance culture....no more pussyfooting around......:ok:

[SIC]

The only reason you felt safe in Zim is cause all the Zim criminals are over in SA where the loot is.There's nothing left in Zim to steal.Hahahaha

And take that number of illegals I quoted ( 7 million ) with a pinch of salt. Cant remember now if thats the figure for illegals or the starting salary required that I filled in on my last job application. Where's my whiskey. Or maybe its the forecast 2007 oil price. Or the average mayor's salary. Or the new decision alt at JHB once all the equipment gets stolen.....:mad:

[learboys]

Another article yesterday in the Independant new, by Lindiwe Mabuza(high commision), pointing out how good the government is and how they are fighting crime, and had to take over from a government with racist policies, and stating it would be a dis-service to discourage people from coming to SA, saying readers should read between the lines, and envites all to come visit. She went as far as saying the government and private sector are working together and results showed that crime has reduced in JHB Gauteng.

That site is working as the government is now going out of its way here
to show they are doing something to fight the crime. The question is are they really or is this just another way of trying to save face with the European community, is there any truth to her story? If they are winning against crime then this might be the start to a safer SA which all will welcome

[crause]

Eye in the sky



A type of 10m balloon such as is normally seen at show-grounds could be the answer to helping curb Johannesburg’s alarming crime spiral – watching your back as you walk the streets of the city.



An Israeli company is hoping to convince the organisers of the 2010 World Cup that this is a piece of equipment that could hover outside each stadium. The company offers professional security services, one of its innovations being the “secure zone concept”, and it boasts a variety of advanced surveillance technology which could be a solution to the high crime rate in SA, which they say could be curbed by up to 60% or more in Johannesburg alone. It will include prevention of terror attacks and improved policing.



The white balloon that can be seen over Rosebank is fitted with an eagle-eyed camera that covers a 3 km radius and can rotate in all directions, sending visuals to the control room via wireless technology. It can be focused on any street by a click on the map and the operator can zoom in as much as necessary.

[B Sousa]

"The white balloon that can be seen over Rosebank is fitted with an eagle-eyed camera that covers a 3 km radius and can rotate in all directions, sending visuals to the control room via wireless technology. It can be focused on any street by a click on the map and the operator can zoom in as much as necessary. "

Thats all great but then:
1) Whos going to repsond to the crime in progress and
2) What will they do when they get there in a few hours.

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Balaclava and AK = No more balloon.

Wonder what those cameras would fetch at a pawn shop?:ugh:

[JG1]

to continue from Bert's post -

and what does it help they do catch them when

1. the Prosecution's case is full of holes and is thrown out of court, or
2. witnesses get killed before the trial, or
3. after locking them up they are freed in an amnesty 6 months later :ugh:


or


4. there's another 5 million criminals doing the same thing elsewhere at the same time:suspect:

[Meckanic]

Hey,

Fell across this blog a couple of weeks ago, looks like the country is full of crime, including drug running aircraft personnel. I lived in SA for about 4 years in the mid to late 80's when SA was beautiful, organized and somewhat well regulated. Check this out;

http://southafricaiscrap.********.com/

and the main page at

http://www.blogger.com/profile/27295630

Looks pretty nasty... (and no, this isn't my blog, I just find it interesting in the subjectiveness of its content).

[ByAirMail]

Talk to a policeman, maybe some of the Air Wing guys can comment here, and get the REAL crime rates...........U WILL B shocked!!

The 2010 hype is very short sighted. How many countries showed a profit after a World Cup, and the fact is that S.A. is pretty isolated in the number of matches played in the country after 2010:= . Maybe Germany can make some money out of their stadiums, as they are central in Europe, and they have so many different tournaments all year round to host.

My concern is not 2010, but what about 2012 and after, when reality kicks in and all the false expectations have not been met?

A recent interview with Harald Parkendorf ( hope the spelling is correct, he is a "liberal" political annalist) on Carte Blanche ( South African 60 minutes kind of program ) said in a survey in 2005 among top corporations, 23% of them will not invest as a result of crime. Then a further number of them were worried about unreliable power supply. Even the high price of Telecom (including internet) was keeping company's away.

All this while the fat cats tell us it is all right, looking good, 2010 miracle year Bla, bla, bla

[avro_shack]

Unfortunately from a First World perspective, guess what:

No one cares about South Africa.

If the First World cared, you'd have air craft carriers off your coast, and your leaders would be held to account.

Wait till you get re-colonised, that might help.

Best of luck with your corrupt leaders.:ugh:

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

So in less than four years' time, when thousands upon thousands of football fans and hooligans have travelled down from Europe to the bolt hole of the southern hemisphere; are we going to be faced with a situation where the trash of Europe meets that of Africa? It would wonderful to think that each side would fight the other to the death, but I fear that the South African Police Force will be able to neither contain one faction nor control the other. Whilst not being much of a fan of either football or street violence, remarkably little to choose between the two these days in terms of spectator satisfaction, it is going to be pleasant indeed to have a choice as to which form of mindless bovine excercise one will watch on the television. This is, of course, presupposing that the SABC will be able to televise anything at all.
It is quite understandable that an Israeli company should be tendering for the contract to manage security at the cup games. The Israel/South African connection is a long and strong one, both at cultural and military levels. However, there might be those who could argue the inadvisability, from a terrorist target point of view, of employing an Israeli company in such a high profile role in the one city in the southern hemisphere with the highest Jewish population. A more innocuous, although probably less efficient course of action, would be to employ a British company. Of course, there will be a lot of Nigerians in Johannesburg by then who could be roped in to help direct traffic.
It would be a very real blessing to all concerned were the men in charge of the football fandango to remove South Africa from its present ridiculously unattainable position as host country as soon as possible. But this will not happen and so...It is going to be a gas! I have every intention of being there to watch the fun.:cool: