Crime in SA
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Crime in SA
How will this impact on avaition down South, was in London news paper today "Independant" www.crimexposouthafrica.org. This doesn't look good to say the least. Abslotuely shocking!!!
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Yeah well, it's a collection of the worst, and thus perhaps an extreme view, but that's what happens down here I suppose. We read about it in the papers each day, take precautions, and hope nobody we care about gets hit. I get the impression (rightly or wrongly, it's just my impression) that government seems to perceive crime as a 'white' problem (or something else which makes it seem less important to them than it really is), and thus aren't running around making it a big priority to do very much about it (except tell people who complain to leave!) - this website is perhaps the result of that impression that some of people have, and the feeling that alternative measures are needed to bring pressure to bear on them. After all, our votes are basically useless, they have no need to do anything that we want them to do. They'll automatically be re-elected come what may in the next election, regardless of their performance.
Ultimately, a negative perception abroad is bad for growth here, and thus the transport industry as a whole, but tourist numbers are still (reportedly) on the rise. So we have yet to feel some kind of crunch, but it may come if enough bad publicity is generated.
Ultimately, a negative perception abroad is bad for growth here, and thus the transport industry as a whole, but tourist numbers are still (reportedly) on the rise. So we have yet to feel some kind of crunch, but it may come if enough bad publicity is generated.
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A sad reality
Unfortunatly i think that it is a very sad reality in SA that this is not just an extreme view. The sad thing is that it is so high that only a few stories, maybe one's with a more exciting twist make the newspapers. A friend of mine from europe, worked for a few weeks as a doctor in Jhb gen hospital. They were utterly shocked to say the least. I was told that they saw more in 1 night then they would have seen in a european hospital in years. Shooting's, stabbings, rape etc.
Crime in SA is disgustingly high. But it's not just that crime is high, it's the violant crime that is high.
And unfortunatly our own goverment don't seem to put this high on there list of priorities. It is more important to rename airports!!!
One gov minister was even quoted as saying that if the whites don't like the crime rate in SA than they should pack there bags and leave.
Well buddy i'm stickin around, so fix it!!
I think that for too long SA has been guilty of ignoring how bad things are, because we figure that the good side far outways the bad side. Sure, we have great weather, good beaches etc. but come on. Is it worth putting up with this crap? These days when foreiners ask me what SA is like i tell them exactly what i think. That it's a beautiful country, but there's a strong chance you'll be hit by crime, maybe robbed if you're having a bad day raped or killed. But come over, we have gr8 beer. Sound harsh? Maybe. But how do we fix this problem if we don't face it? And how do we convince the politicians that's it's a major problem unless it affects them? Tourist revenue is a lot of ash for them you know! You're probally safer walking home to your crew house in afghanistan.
Most of the SA pilot's reading this site have or are contract pilots who have been based in what is supposed to be pretty dangerous places, yet we take more precautions living at home.
Our good police officer's don't seem to get enough support from the Gov, and the bad one's are to corrupt to want to change anything.
I'm a South African, and i love my country. But that doesn't mean i have to like whats happening.
How this affects aviation in the long run is pretty obvious, one day our flow of tourist's will become a trickle as they move onto safer destinations, maybe Bagdad??!!
Crime in SA is disgustingly high. But it's not just that crime is high, it's the violant crime that is high.
And unfortunatly our own goverment don't seem to put this high on there list of priorities. It is more important to rename airports!!!
One gov minister was even quoted as saying that if the whites don't like the crime rate in SA than they should pack there bags and leave.
Well buddy i'm stickin around, so fix it!!
I think that for too long SA has been guilty of ignoring how bad things are, because we figure that the good side far outways the bad side. Sure, we have great weather, good beaches etc. but come on. Is it worth putting up with this crap? These days when foreiners ask me what SA is like i tell them exactly what i think. That it's a beautiful country, but there's a strong chance you'll be hit by crime, maybe robbed if you're having a bad day raped or killed. But come over, we have gr8 beer. Sound harsh? Maybe. But how do we fix this problem if we don't face it? And how do we convince the politicians that's it's a major problem unless it affects them? Tourist revenue is a lot of ash for them you know! You're probally safer walking home to your crew house in afghanistan.
Most of the SA pilot's reading this site have or are contract pilots who have been based in what is supposed to be pretty dangerous places, yet we take more precautions living at home.
Our good police officer's don't seem to get enough support from the Gov, and the bad one's are to corrupt to want to change anything.
I'm a South African, and i love my country. But that doesn't mean i have to like whats happening.
How this affects aviation in the long run is pretty obvious, one day our flow of tourist's will become a trickle as they move onto safer destinations, maybe Bagdad??!!
Last edited by Beech19; 26th Jul 2006 at 08:34.
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Anyone that reads a newspaper or watches the news, or reads the online news(as much as either of them sometimes have bad reporting on aviation
) will know what is going on in SA. The Argus on Monday this week was the worst I have seen in a long time, 3 pages just on crime, hijacking.
Learboy the site is good in that it shows what a lot of papers are too scared to publish. But! As a business owner myself I think he is going about things the wrong way by trying to persude tourists to stop visiting SA. All he is doing is destroying an already delicate economy
I also don't agree with his site takeing cash for sms's sent. If his intention is to highlight crime then don't try and make money out of misery, do it as a civic duty
) will know what is going on in SA. The Argus on Monday this week was the worst I have seen in a long time, 3 pages just on crime, hijacking.Learboy the site is good in that it shows what a lot of papers are too scared to publish. But! As a business owner myself I think he is going about things the wrong way by trying to persude tourists to stop visiting SA. All he is doing is destroying an already delicate economy
I also don't agree with his site takeing cash for sms's sent. If his intention is to highlight crime then don't try and make money out of misery, do it as a civic duty
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HERE WE GO AGAIN!!!!!
Everyday I recieve on my pc emails of petitions about crime. The worst part about it is that they are always sent from Ex pats. Its getting tedious!
WHATS THE POINT? There is no secret that crime is a huge issue, there is no secret that the government is losing the battle, there is no secret that its brutal and violent.
However, resources are limited, we have huge social problems, we have major imbalances (wether you like it or not), and the issues are not going away by whining about it with stupid petitions, websites from someone who likes to think he is on a crusade - and clearly generating money by shouting it from the roof tops. Discussion will not help, but actions will.
The World Cup will help. Not only the few months of it, but the years of publicity and positivity from all who contribute. Economic regeneration will help, not ex pats who continuously try and justify leaving the country by ranting from London and the like....
Direct foreign investment will help, we cannot look internally to solve the problem.... there is no money and it is impossible to do. THE SOONER WE ALL REALISE IT, THE BETTER. We need to attract investment, and work around the issues to solve the problems.
This is going to be a big thread, because its an issue, but you have to ask yourself when you are finished reading the negativity and the whining, are you better off? Have you made a difference? If the answer is no, then why read it? Why bother spending all the time listening to the likes of Mr Neil Watson? Why send him an sms at R3 (the cost is lower)? Whats your state of mind like now, and would it be better if you spent the same time, meditating, smelling the roses, or making a difference? What EXACTLY HAS BEEN ACHIEVED?
The only thing which is certain is that crime will not get better if there is no investment. Its that simple. Turn it away and wallow in your misery!
Everyday I recieve on my pc emails of petitions about crime. The worst part about it is that they are always sent from Ex pats. Its getting tedious!
WHATS THE POINT? There is no secret that crime is a huge issue, there is no secret that the government is losing the battle, there is no secret that its brutal and violent.
However, resources are limited, we have huge social problems, we have major imbalances (wether you like it or not), and the issues are not going away by whining about it with stupid petitions,
websites from someone who likes to think he is on a crusade - and clearly generating money by shouting it from the roof tops. Discussion will not help, but actions will.The World Cup will help. Not only the few months of it, but the years of publicity and positivity from all who contribute. Economic regeneration will help, not ex pats who continuously try and justify leaving the country by ranting from London and the like....
Direct foreign investment will help, we cannot look internally to solve the problem.... there is no money and it is impossible to do. THE SOONER WE ALL REALISE IT, THE BETTER. We need to attract investment, and work around the issues to solve the problems.
This is going to be a big thread, because its an issue, but you have to ask yourself when you are finished reading the negativity and the whining, are you better off? Have you made a difference? If the answer is no, then why read it? Why bother spending all the time listening to the likes of Mr Neil Watson? Why send him an sms at R3 (the cost is lower)? Whats your state of mind like now, and would it be better if you spent the same time, meditating, smelling the roses, or making a difference? What EXACTLY HAS BEEN ACHIEVED?
The only thing which is certain is that crime will not get better if there is no investment. Its that simple. Turn it away and wallow in your misery!
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QUOTE "How this affects aviation in the long run is pretty obvious, one day our flow of tourist's will become a trickle as they move onto safer destinations like Bagdad!!!"
At an average of 60 Iraqis being killed per day in Iraq, makes it about 22000 per year. Which is the same as the annual murder rate in South Africa.
Its time this government fixed this problem.
As Shrike says, our votes count for nothing, we just finance the government. They are not responsible to us though, they are responsible to the millions of ignorants who make up the black masses who would never vote for anyone else except the ANC.
So, what to do? We can't stop paying tax, or the system will throw us in jail.
This internet site www.crimexposouthafrica.org is a good way of fighting back - it actually stings.
A lot of the crime is comitted by illegal immigrants - coming over at present from Zim at a rate of 1000's a day - why? Because the ANC Government allowed the Zim problem to get worse and worse and did nothing to stop it. Now there is a huge humanitarian crisis on our border causing us a massive headache in terms of crime, deportations etc.
The problem in SA is that the citizens whom have a clue how to solve these problems are in the minority and are not heeded, whilst the majority are clueless as they struggle to keep warm at night and fill their stomachs.
Its the classic case of the blind leading the blind whilst the enlightened are tied up in the corner with a bag over their heads
At an average of 60 Iraqis being killed per day in Iraq, makes it about 22000 per year. Which is the same as the annual murder rate in South Africa.
Its time this government fixed this problem.
As Shrike says, our votes count for nothing, we just finance the government. They are not responsible to us though, they are responsible to the millions of ignorants who make up the black masses who would never vote for anyone else except the ANC.
So, what to do? We can't stop paying tax, or the system will throw us in jail.
This internet site www.crimexposouthafrica.org is a good way of fighting back - it actually stings.
A lot of the crime is comitted by illegal immigrants - coming over at present from Zim at a rate of 1000's a day - why? Because the ANC Government allowed the Zim problem to get worse and worse and did nothing to stop it. Now there is a huge humanitarian crisis on our border causing us a massive headache in terms of crime, deportations etc.
The problem in SA is that the citizens whom have a clue how to solve these problems are in the minority and are not heeded, whilst the majority are clueless as they struggle to keep warm at night and fill their stomachs.
Its the classic case of the blind leading the blind whilst the enlightened are tied up in the corner with a bag over their heads
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Fliterisk - says "we cannot look internally to solve the problem.... there is no money and it is impossible to do. THE SOONER WE ALL REALISE IT, THE BETTER."
Utter rubbish. Of course there is money available. Its just being wasted on idealistic tosh such as renaming places. Its being hugely wasted on supporting teetering organizations crippled by faulty affirmative action policies, such as SAA, to the tune of R6 billion a year. Its being misappropriated all over the place.
The government need to, as a direct priority, allocate a huge sum to beef up the police force. Police stations having no vehicles is not an option. Corrupt police because they are getting paid peanuts is not the way to go. Collecting traffic fines by camera instead of having police vans patrolling is not effective policing.
And as for saying "THE SOONER WE ALL REALISE IT, THE BETTER" you are no better than the Minister who tells us if we don't like it, leave. You are sticking you head in the sand like an ostrich and if you continue to take that line, your exposed a$$ will be grass - sooner rather than later - at the hands of the criminals you are condoning.
Utter rubbish. Of course there is money available. Its just being wasted on idealistic tosh such as renaming places. Its being hugely wasted on supporting teetering organizations crippled by faulty affirmative action policies, such as SAA, to the tune of R6 billion a year. Its being misappropriated all over the place.
The government need to, as a direct priority, allocate a huge sum to beef up the police force. Police stations having no vehicles is not an option. Corrupt police because they are getting paid peanuts is not the way to go. Collecting traffic fines by camera instead of having police vans patrolling is not effective policing.
And as for saying "THE SOONER WE ALL REALISE IT, THE BETTER" you are no better than the Minister who tells us if we don't like it, leave. You are sticking you head in the sand like an ostrich and if you continue to take that line, your exposed a$$ will be grass - sooner rather than later - at the hands of the criminals you are condoning.
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Heli sticktime i don't think that turning away tourist's is a solution to crime, and it does hurt the economy. However it is our responsibility to let any visitor, to South Africa, know what the risks are by coming here. Because unfortunatly South Africa has become a dangerous place to visit.
And Fliterisk, you are right in saying that resources are limited. However there are alot of nations out there that are a lot poorer than South Africa, who are a lot more desperate for investment than we are, who's crime rates are a lot lower.
Perhaps South Africa should try make itself more investor and tourist friendly by sorting the crime out first. And even though i do not agree with R3 sms's and email petetions, that our goverment just ignores so it's a complete waste of time, i believe that websites like his are vitally important to get the truth out there. The goverment, i'm sure, hate websites like this because it exposes there short comings. Did you read the page on Police corruption!!!
Without websites like this crime stats can be hidden. And probally would be.
Even as a south african, living in SA, i was shocked at some of what i read. The truth be told, our goverment obviously does not care about peoples safety and the rule of law, wich makes life cheap, and therefore South Africa doesn't really deserve investment because by disreguarding crime we haven't earned it.
After all we are a democracy & we voted them into power.
And Fliterisk, you are right in saying that resources are limited. However there are alot of nations out there that are a lot poorer than South Africa, who are a lot more desperate for investment than we are, who's crime rates are a lot lower.
Perhaps South Africa should try make itself more investor and tourist friendly by sorting the crime out first. And even though i do not agree with R3 sms's and email petetions, that our goverment just ignores so it's a complete waste of time, i believe that websites like his are vitally important to get the truth out there. The goverment, i'm sure, hate websites like this because it exposes there short comings. Did you read the page on Police corruption!!!
Without websites like this crime stats can be hidden. And probally would be.
Even as a south african, living in SA, i was shocked at some of what i read. The truth be told, our goverment obviously does not care about peoples safety and the rule of law, wich makes life cheap, and therefore South Africa doesn't really deserve investment because by disreguarding crime we haven't earned it.
After all we are a democracy & we voted them into power.
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My point is JGI do you feel better now? Are you sitting there thinking wow, I have made a difference now and I feel better! Because if you are then well done to you. My point is do you really think that the government gives a #@$% about what you think, particualry if you are sitting in London, sweating your off.
My guess is no. The only difference you can make is by making it happen. Bring in the money, the investment and the rest will take care of itself. Let the tourists make their own decisions. Hell, I would hardly say Mexico City is the safest place in the world, but you dont hear Mexicans continuously whining about their problems like South AFRICANS do.
Whining is the easy way out, and now this idiot Neil Watson wants to get paid for it. Do you seriously think that whining is making a difference? GIMME A BREAK!
off.My guess is no. The only difference you can make is by making it happen. Bring in the money, the investment and the rest will take care of itself. Let the tourists make their own decisions. Hell, I would hardly say Mexico City is the safest place in the world, but you dont hear Mexicans continuously whining about their problems like South AFRICANS do.
Whining is the easy way out, and now this idiot Neil Watson wants to get paid for it. Do you seriously think that whining is making a difference? GIMME A BREAK!
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Fliterisk - no money? You are an intelligent guy, judging from your past posts, with a balanced view on things.... you can't be serious when you say there is no money available and we should rely on foreign investment only. Sure, we need foreign investment badly, but before we start touting for foreign water to pour in our bucket, we should fix the leaks in the bucket.
Take one speed camera on the motorway – lets assume it catches one speedster ever 5 minutes, at an average fine rate of R300. That camera makes R3600/hr. Over a weekly period, (14 hrs/day, which is excluding the spare-traffic times at night) that’s R350 000 a week. Monthly that’s enough to pay for four new police vans and twenty four cops to man them on three 8 hour shifts a day for a month. Where are they? Certainly not at the Rivonia offramp
Take one speed camera on the motorway – lets assume it catches one speedster ever 5 minutes, at an average fine rate of R300. That camera makes R3600/hr. Over a weekly period, (14 hrs/day, which is excluding the spare-traffic times at night) that’s R350 000 a week. Monthly that’s enough to pay for four new police vans and twenty four cops to man them on three 8 hour shifts a day for a month. Where are they? Certainly not at the Rivonia offramp
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Sure, whining isn't the way out but it helps more than pretending its all OK when its pretty far from OK.
What you call whining is legimate complaining and communication between humans to discover who is like minded amongst them. This then leads to action. Do you think Watson did this on his own?
I think Watson has a good idea - to publicise the unacceptable crime rate in SA to the rest of the world. Because as a previous poster said - most of it is ignored these days - only those murders with a sicker twist are in the paper.
So, good on Watson - I have just sent him 2 SMS's - he needs funding, lets hope he is the vanguard of an avalanche of dissent against the useless SA government.
What you call whining is legimate complaining and communication between humans to discover who is like minded amongst them. This then leads to action. Do you think Watson did this on his own?
I think Watson has a good idea - to publicise the unacceptable crime rate in SA to the rest of the world. Because as a previous poster said - most of it is ignored these days - only those murders with a sicker twist are in the paper.
So, good on Watson - I have just sent him 2 SMS's - he needs funding, lets hope he is the vanguard of an avalanche of dissent against the useless SA government.
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Interseting point JGI. Your argument holds true in theory.
However, have you heard how many speeding fines are outstanding, and how few South Africans pay their fines? I am willing to bet many of those are commenting on Neil Watsons site right now. Where's their meaningful contribution?
I heard on 702 the other day moaning about officers who accept bribes... amazing that they are solely responsible, didnt someone PAY the bribe? The irony of it is was the someone phoned in complaining about it, AND HE HAD JUST PAID THE BRIBE. HE WAS ACTUALLY BREAKING THE LAW. Surely it holds true, if we stopy paying the bribe and report this behaviour then the problem goes away? Well, firstly we need to stop breaking the law - speed limits etc, and perhaps Metro cops will not have such easy targets? Maybe? Maybe we have a culture of law breaking and while the extent differs, and its part of all of our culture.
Its a chiken and an egg. It starts at the bottom with us. If we are not doing everything we can, then surely we havent earned the right to complain about it? Surely?
I also realise that this argument will go round and round and will never come to a conclusion, so I respect your opinion as I hope you do mine. But please ask yourself if you have broken a law, if you are doing what you can, and if you have really earned the right to moan, and what will be achieved by moaning rather than doing?
However, have you heard how many speeding fines are outstanding, and how few South Africans pay their fines? I am willing to bet many of those are commenting on Neil Watsons site right now. Where's their meaningful contribution?
I heard on 702 the other day moaning about officers who accept bribes... amazing that they are solely responsible, didnt someone PAY the bribe? The irony of it is was the someone phoned in complaining about it, AND HE HAD JUST PAID THE BRIBE. HE WAS ACTUALLY BREAKING THE LAW. Surely it holds true, if we stopy paying the bribe and report this behaviour then the problem goes away? Well, firstly we need to stop breaking the law - speed limits etc, and perhaps Metro cops will not have such easy targets? Maybe?
Maybe we have a culture of law breaking and while the extent differs, and its part of all of our culture.Its a chiken and an egg. It starts at the bottom with us. If we are not doing everything we can, then surely we havent earned the right to complain about it? Surely?
I also realise that this argument will go round and round and will never come to a conclusion, so I respect your opinion as I hope you do mine. But please ask yourself if you have broken a law, if you are doing what you can, and if you have really earned the right to moan, and what will be achieved by moaning rather than doing?
Está servira para distraerle.
The only way forward for South Africa in its battle against crime, as in any primitive society, is to bring back capital punishment and extend its application.
The vast majority of that element of the population which commit crimes has no wish to be stretched and then buried in unhallowed ground.
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Confused
Fliterisk, help me out here, i'm a bit confused. Why exactly do you think that the goverment will change it's opinion on crime if we get more investment. If we got a lot of investment surely they would think "well everything must fine and dandy if people are investing in SA"
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Food for Thought:
Our ANC Government will NEVER stand up to the Mugabe regime, or his people!
Because, during the previous era (some 12+ years ago) and MUCH longer, they were actually harboured by Mugabe himself, during their fight against the then Apartheid Government of SA.
Thus, with the amount of Illegal Immigrants currrently in SA (from Zimbabwe alone), quoted to be in the region of 5 000 000
, our system is overloaded and the poor law abiding citizens of SA (no matter what their ethnical background), doomed.
This surely is a big problem, but unless we stand up and take a stand against our brothers (or them against theirs), we will after 2010, slide back to becoming part of the African Dream: ANARCHY!
Another point (which I simply do not undestand):
450 people killed in 3 weeks of the latest Middle East crisis = 7800 per year.
That is only a THIRD of what happens in SA year-on-year-on-year, but never have all the World Leaders discussed this at the G8 Summit, or made Emergency trips across the Atlantic etc. to try and sort this out...
Why? Because it does not make for good Electioneering and Profiteering
Our ANC Government will NEVER stand up to the Mugabe regime, or his people!
Because, during the previous era (some 12+ years ago) and MUCH longer, they were actually harboured by Mugabe himself, during their fight against the then Apartheid Government of SA.
Thus, with the amount of Illegal Immigrants currrently in SA (from Zimbabwe alone), quoted to be in the region of 5 000 000
, our system is overloaded and the poor law abiding citizens of SA (no matter what their ethnical background), doomed.This surely is a big problem, but unless we stand up and take a stand against our brothers (or them against theirs), we will after 2010, slide back to becoming part of the African Dream: ANARCHY!
Another point (which I simply do not undestand):
450 people killed in 3 weeks of the latest Middle East crisis = 7800 per year.
That is only a THIRD of what happens in SA year-on-year-on-year, but never have all the World Leaders discussed this at the G8 Summit, or made Emergency trips across the Atlantic etc. to try and sort this out...
Why? Because it does not make for good Electioneering and Profiteering
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Fliterisk, for sure, you have to keep your own house in order - it starts there.
Problem lies with the majority of our population - they don't see things as you and I do. Do you litter? When you have finished your bag of chips do you throw it on the ground? I think not - neither do I. But look to the majority of our population - chips/pie in mouth, wrapper on ground, not a thought. Which is a very good indicator of their state of mind as regards to pulling together as a team and starting good things with the individual. As well as their level of civic awareness.
As far as bribing cops is concerned - I will pay a bribe if asked and then I will report the cop, to stamp out such corruption.
To all of you who are sick and tired of crime - help Watson with his site - lets see if it works. Send him R3.00, its what you hand out to 'parking attendants' daily anyway. Give this site support - if you are a victim of crime, add to the site.
Let this site and others like it become a living, growing tree - a thorn tree in the side of the Minister of Safety and Security
Problem lies with the majority of our population - they don't see things as you and I do. Do you litter? When you have finished your bag of chips do you throw it on the ground? I think not - neither do I. But look to the majority of our population - chips/pie in mouth, wrapper on ground, not a thought. Which is a very good indicator of their state of mind as regards to pulling together as a team and starting good things with the individual. As well as their level of civic awareness.
As far as bribing cops is concerned - I will pay a bribe if asked and then I will report the cop, to stamp out such corruption.
To all of you who are sick and tired of crime - help Watson with his site - lets see if it works. Send him R3.00, its what you hand out to 'parking attendants' daily anyway. Give this site support - if you are a victim of crime, add to the site.
Let this site and others like it become a living, growing tree - a thorn tree in the side of the Minister of Safety and Security
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Couldn't agree more JG1. He needs our support, just check this out.
http://crimexposouthafrica.org/files...eSabotaged.jpg
B19
http://crimexposouthafrica.org/files...eSabotaged.jpg
B19
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FS, it is not a case of aimless whining, WE ARE ALL TIRED of this cr#p and it is a briliant idea to expose it, we cant go on like chickens with our heads cut off running around blind and then expecting people to pour in money to a government that is going to steal 1/2 of it on kickbacks and bribes to get a job done, and then whats left will get stolen from you anyway??? like J said, patch the holes 1st! Are you going to put pax an a stuffed a/c and hope they dont notice? same thing, why tell people to give SA money when they will just get burnt? We need to expose this stuff so people who can, can fix it. and if investers stop, it will start to hurt the right "wrong" people and they can sort it out.
ever been to Uganda? guy with a gun on every street corner, criminals get shot on site no questions asked, look how much investment they are getting! not that PC but hell, it works.
ever been to Uganda? guy with a gun on every street corner, criminals get shot on site no questions asked, look how much investment they are getting! not that PC but hell, it works.