New Cessna Single

[deice]

Has anyone else seen the pictures of the Cessna Sigle prototype that made a pass over Oshkosh yesterday?

http://www.avweb.com/newspics/new_cessna2.jpg

What do you think, could this be the Cirrus killer? A few interesting things to note are the wing, slight forward sweep, cantilever, and it looks rather small = fast! The fuselage looks real sleek and sculpted, rather like a glastar. Looks like they've done away with climbing into the seats by adding a door for each row, would be interesting to see the other side, I hope it looks the same!

Rumours indicate the engine is new too! Bombardier perhaps, or an as yet unannounced Lycoming?
If they get around to manufacturing this plane, Cirrus and the gang may get some serious competition.

[Mercenary Pilot]

I like it. Its about time Cessna caught up. I bet its got a Garmin G-1000:ok:!
I wonder if they are developing a diesel engine option too?

[acuba 290]

any pictures from cocpit avalible?

[Brooklands]

Yes, the pictures in that link are the Cessna "Next Generation Piston" aircraft, aslo dubbed the "Cirrus Killer". I think its highly likely that the engine is a Lycoming, after all Cessna are owned by the company (Textron) that also owns Lycoming. I'd guess that its an IO540, or possibly the recently certified IO580. No cockpit pictures I'm afraid as from what I've read on the web the 'plane only did a fly past, and didn't land.

Cessna also revealed their proof of concept LSA aircraft - there are some pictures (http://www.avweb.com/newspics/Cessna_LSA1.jpg) and a brief descriptionl (http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/12_30-SE/leadnews/cessna_lsa_cirrus_killer_192767-1.html) on Avweb. It looks rather pretty. Interestingly :8 the registration is reportedly N158CS :)

Brooklands

[BlueRobin]

I like it. Its about time Cessna caught up. I bet its got a Garmin G-1000:ok:!
I wonder if they are developing a diesel engine option too?

Something of this class could be ideally suited to Thielert Centurion new V6 235hp unit. link (http://web.thielert.com/typo3/index.php?id=660&backPID=660&tt_news=625&L=1)

As Tony said over on Flyer, the new Bombardier/REV V6 petrol could also be mated.

[IO540]

I don't think that Cessna would risk a whole new plane on a Thielert diesel.

I also think that Thielert wouldn't risk their commercial future by marketing a diesel engine in the USA, before it has been thoroughly tested by European guinea-pigs.

The IO-580 is interesting. I had a reason to look at it a couple of years ago, and found that Lyco introduced it c. 1995, so it is 10 years old! I suppose, so few new planes (of the right size) are coming on the market these days that there were no takers. The VUT Cobra uses it, interestingly.

The new Cessna looks nice.

[Mercenary Pilot]

I think designing a light aircraft in this day and age without a Kerosene burning powerplant (or a future option to have one) would be a huge commercial mistake. The new Thielert Centurion V6 235hp would be an awesome combo.

However for reasons stated, it more than likely it will be Lycoming powered. Anyone know if they are developing a Diesel?

I also think that Thielert wouldn't risk their commercial future by marketing a diesel engine in the USA, before it has been thoroughly tested by European guinea-pigs.
The Diamond DA-40 & 42 Twinstars are shipping to the U.S. with the 135 hp Thielert engines, so they will know all about Centurion powered aircraft by the time a new Cessna starts production.

Im hoping they will offer a V6 conversion for the Twinstar! /drool:E :ok:

[Superpilot]

Meanwhile.... and I know you'll agree IO540, Socata seem to be stuck in the dark ages ;)

(Everyone's gone glass except for they!) :(

[IO540]

Socata seem to be stuck in the dark ages

Well they would be if they were still making planes :)

First, ~ 2 years ago, one of their execs made a really stupid mistake; he announced that TB production has been stopped pending an improvement in market conditions. This killed any potential sales right away. The right way to handle that would be to shut up, build one final (big) batch with all the avionics options in, and quote a long lead time to new enquiries. That way you keep all the options open.

Now, they are working on building the TB series in Romania, in an EADS facility connected with the Eurocopter, or something like that. The new model will have a glass cockpit; you can't give away planes now without one of those. I don't think anybody outside Socata knows more. EADS also owns SMA whose diesel looks nice.

The key is the US market, of course. European IFR tourer sales can be counted on the fingers of one hoodie. Socata has had a dedicated following out there, a lot of respect, attracting mostly the more experienced pilots, and has a super safety record. Fantastic plane. Not one in-flight structural failure, great customer service (not in Europe) and fuel flow per KT no worse than an SR22. But they've screwed up their market and I doubt they will get back in - unless they bring out something damn good.

There is also the Czech VUT Cobra - basically all that a new TB20 (or any decent 4-seat IFR tourer) should be, but a lot cheaper. And VUT are lining up American dealers as we speak.

Personally I don't care for the present glass cockpits. They integrate a lot of less than reliable avionics into one unit... great. Give me my HSI, MFD, etc anytime :)

[deice]

Yeah, whatever happened to Socata's "new line" of aircraft? It was noisy 5 years ago and then it all went silent! Seems like they're concentrating on the TBM700/850, which is nice, although a tad pricey for private flying.:{
Reading all the stories on avweb and aero-news.net indicates that the Cessna IS powered by a Lyc, and that they are going to introduce something new in the not too distant future.
Personally, I think both Avgas AND Jet will be available in future aircraft. More choices, which is great!
Looks like there will be several options of each type, Thielert, SMA, Bombardier, Continental/Honda and Lycoming are all grabbing for future sales.
One thing seems to be for sure. We're finally moving out of the dark ages!
With both Cessna and Piper announcing new development to counter Cirrus Lancair and Diamond it is bound to be interesting.
All we need now is for Toyota to announce the low cost personal plane that never fails and performs like you wouldn't believe!:}

[Mariner9]

Personally I don't care for the present glass cockpits. They integrate a lot of less than reliable avionics into one unit... great. Give me my HSI, MFD, etc anytime :)

IO advocating old technology over new, never thought I'd see the day :p :ok:

[White Bear]

I applaud Cessna and the other manufacturers who are meeting the challenge of producing modern, efficient, and attractive GA aircraft.

I’m not so sure about the glass cockpit revolution. I’ve looked at a couple of glass cockpit layouts and at first sight they are very confusing. I have been assured by the manufacturer that I will get used to it in time.

My feeling about digital readouts is the same as for digital watches; given the choice I prefer analog. Perhaps I’m a dyed in the wool traditionalist, but it seems to me that analog watches outsell digital by a vast amount, (so I’m not alone,) and you hardly ever see a digital dash in a car anymore.

I am aware of the current (trendy) preference for glass cockpits in GA, but again, my Cessna is not an F16, nor will I ever really NEED the multifunction capabilities of that kind of instrumentation

I only fly about 100-150 hours a year, and I’m pretty typical. I love gadgets as much as the next person, but the COST! I would be much more enthusiastic about improved, and more efficient airframes and engines than about glass cockpits, and much more likely to spend money to reduce fuel costs, or increase true airspeed than I would be to buy glass.

Flying is expensive enough; I don’t believe we should raise the cost pandering to trendy glass panels that are wonderful in Military/Commercial aircraft, but overkill in the GA world. We should be looking at ways to make flying more affordable, not less…
All IMHO of course,:ok:
Regards,
W.B.

[IanSeager]

EADS also owns SMA whose diesel looks nice

SMA is owned by the SAFRAN group, not EADS

Ian

[IO540]

White Bear, your 150hrs/year is way way above the UK GA average!

The glass cockpits are as analog as anything else in the way the stuff is displayed. One criticism (voiced by a number of reviewers) is that the presentation is very cluttered, with a lot of small size text, too small to read from a normal pilot position, by someone aged say 50+. My own dislike is that the designers have failed to grasp a greap opportunity to address a major long-term failure mode of conventional avionics: susceptibility to moisture and vibration. The G1000 is not sealed in any way, so it will rot nicely when the plane is parked outdoors. Car makers learnt this 20-30 years ago. They should have made a totally airtight module, but that is a much bigger technical challenge, for various reasons. So a G1000 concentrates the failures into one module, and if it goes you lose a lot of stuff all in one go. This isn't bizjet/airliner-quality avionics; this is stuff with a home-PC build quality, cheap connectors...

There is also little or no extra functionality; a G1000 basically combines a GNS530 with a bunch of engine instruments.

Socata make vastly more money on selling the TBM range. People here may say they can't afford a 1M quid plane but the fact is that loads of people can. Sales of new piston VFR/IFR tourers are very low in Europe, although Cirrus and Diamond look like they will turn things around. But nothing makes as much dosh as turboprops. Having said that, that market might get a bit crowded, with everybody developing the light jets.

Ian, sorry for the error. It must have been recently that SMA were tied up in the Socata group; perhaps EADS disposed of them.

[deice]

Considering the amount of precision mechanics required for gyros the cost of a few flat panels should be well below the old steam gauges. Perhaps that is one more reason why they're the primary choice with manufacturers. But I'm sure the main motivator is the market.
Aside from that, modern electronics are quite reliable and some of the solutions available provide a high degree of backup.

I haven't actually flown behind the Garmin or Avidyne solutions so I don't know how they'll work in flight, but the Garmin panel I have seen does look a bit cluttered with a lot of information. Still, it's supposed to provide the basic 6 (T) primary flight instruments in a similar grouping. Surely, anyone training to become an airline pilot should benefit from this setup!

With regards to the quality of the electronics, I have heard numerous reports of avionics reboots in Embraer aircraft sporting Collins equipment. You'd expect them to be pretty stable, they cost more than a small aircraft!! Software issues no doubt, but still...

I hope the "Radio Shack" equipment we'll be flying in our little planes are more reliable than that!:}

[Mercenary Pilot]

There is also little or no extra functionality; a G1000 basically combines a GNS530 with a bunch of engine instruments.

A bit incorrect there IO540, the G1000 has got unbelievable functionality and has a solid state reference system so no gyros to worry about. I have nearly 200 hours behind the G-1000 in the last 3 months and I think it is superb, it massively reduces workload especially under IFR.

It’s going to be installed in a number of business jets in the coming months/years and some of the features are unseen at present due to a lack of currently affordable (GA) auto flight technology. Expect to see coupled auto throttles and CDU's in the not to distant future. I do think they take time to get used to...I find the VSI doesn’t "get my attention" but that’s probably a personal thing and the altimeter flashes if you do start to deviate from your altitude anyway.

I cant comment on the connections behind the panel as im no engineer but obviously it is something that will have to sorted if the system is to used in commercial operations (and I have had an intermittent fault which was blamed on...guess what...moisture! :p ).

[nouseforaname]

At long last. Looks a cool plane.

[IO540]

What functionality does the G1000 have over a complete IFR panel (GPS, MFD, RMI) with the proper engine instruments (totalising flowmeter linked to GPS, multicylinder engine monitor)?

I am referring to functionality presented to the pilot.

G1000 installations I have seen don't even have an autopilot. I know Garmin are doing one, or doing one soon, but this is pretty poor.

Under the heading of "extra functionality" I would put fully automatic VNAV. One can get fully hands-off LNAV now (with GPSS etc) but VNAV is more tricky, not least because it's easy to fly into the ground with it. It's also gets messy without auto-throttle (very easy to bust Vne for example) and that isn't something we will see commonplace in piston GA.

One thing one can do with a big LCD panel is display a product like Jeppview, so you can see the approach plate, and have the rather slick feature of seeing the plane superimposed on top of the IAP profile. You also get a big enroute chart, which is quite nice but not really necessary in the IFR context (more useful for VFR I think, displaying a big chunk of a VFR chart). With a setup like that, it is damn difficult to make a mistake. However, if you do that, you can't display the normal stuff as well as the engine instruments at the same time, because JV takes up a whole LCD.

I don't doubt this is the future; it's a fait accompli anyway. But that doesn't stop me questioning it :)

[Mercenary Pilot]

Its got terrain warning, traffic alert (when mode 'S' is implemented across europe), contoured moving map, auto ILS alignment and storm scope to name a few features I would call extra functionality over a standard modern IFR fit.

I fly coupled to a bendix/king auto-pilot (which is pretty good and works quite well) but Garmin are developing their own autopilot which, when coupled to the G-1000 will offer so many new features including auto throttles. The new D-jet could have this and possible the Cessna Mustang (even most entry level biz jets dont have autothrust). There is alot of stuff yet to come out of the G-1000...just wait and see ;) .

http://www.garmin.com/pressroom/graphics/pt-Cessna182G1000.jpg
Standard cessna G-1000 set-up



Way of the future? For GA, I would say yes :ok:

[Mercenary Pilot]

The aircraft in the photos is (a proof of concept) part of a new family to replace 172/182 family or as the say a new line of "single engine products"

They also announced a Light Sport Aircraft with the following features...

Cruise speed: 120Kts (Max allowable for this class)
Engine: Rotax 912
wingspan: 30'
2 seat 1 behind the other
sticks (not yokes)
aluminium with a few composite parts
1320 lbs MTOW

[Confabulous]

Looks like Cessna have had the concept of 'parasite drag' explained to them slowly and carefully :E :D

[whiskeytangofoxtrot]

I fly coupled to a bendix/king auto-pilot (which is pretty good and works quite well) but Garmin are developing their own autopilot which, when coupled to the G-1000 will offer so many new features including auto throttles.
I think Beechraft (well, Raytheon or whatever :hmm:) use the Garmin autopilot/G1000 combo.

The new Bonanza/Baron models with glass panels came a bit later to the glass game, probably because they wanted to have the better integrated Garmin autopilot in the setup. This avoids things like having two separate altitude preselects: one in the G1000 that doesnt get communicated to the bendix/king autopilot, and another in the autopilot itself. So one has to set the altitude in two places (or ignore the other one altogether) - as far as I remember, the all-garmin setup does not have this problem. I would guess there might be other benefits too to have the units working more tightly together.

One can see the difference when comparing the panels: The Garmin autopilot has the autopilot mode selectors on the left sidepanel of the "map screen", instead of being in a separate unit. On G1000-equipped Cessnas etc that part of the G1000 is empty, and they have the Bendix/King unit separately.

Seen here (requires flash plugin): http://www.raytheonaircraft.com/beechcraft/aircraft/pistons/bonanzag36/cockpit_tour.aspx

Compare to the G1000 on Diamond DA40: http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0641145/L/ - and on a Cessna: http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1004252/L/ and you see the difference in the G1000 units.

[IO540]

Its got terrain warning, traffic alert (when mode 'S' is implemented across europe), contoured moving map, auto ILS alignment and storm scope to name a few features I would call extra functionality over a standard modern IFR fit.

You can have all of this if you have a big GPS or an MFD.

The question is the cost.

Honeywell GPWS was £13k when I looked at it a few months ago; I believe Garmin are doing something (in the form of a "certified" obstacle database) on the GNS530 for a lot less but I don't think it is a comparable product since it doesn't deliver avoidance warnings with aircraft performance accounted for. (It's a ripoff price of course; the function could be incorporated in a £200 GPS from a camping shop).

The full installed TCAD can be had from about £12k, last time I looked. The installation cost is significant; the plane has to be nearly taken apart to fit the various aerials and cabling (I've seen it done).

A WX500 stormscope is relatively cheap, about £2000.

None of the above are new in any way, and plenty of pilots have all of it. Just turn up at any moderately competent avionics shop (if you can find one...) and they will be Absolutely Delighted SIR to help you :) The question is whether a G1000 delivers the functionality for a much lower installed cost.

Remember you also need an ADF and DME - with the G1000 these need to be remote reading units, to do it properly.

I don't think we are there yet, in both integration and evidence of long term reliability (both hardware and software). A few years to go, IMHO.

[Superpilot]

For me the love of glass stems from one thing...and that is the innaccuracy and mechanical efficiency of steam driven guages.

Take for example the common D.I. It's a complete joke.

[IO540]

The common DI is a complete joke because it works off a primitive internal gyro.

Any half decent plane will have a DI which a) uses a much more stable remotely mounted heading gyro (cost £5000 or so) and b) the heading is continually corrected with a heading signal from a fluxgate magnetometer (basically a solid state compass) mounted in a wingtip (cost another £5000 or so).

This technology, called a "slaved" DI or HSI, is decades old but works very well.

A glass panel will need the above remotely mounted equipment too. Today, one can avoid the remote gyro with a fibre optic reference system, but it isn't any cheaper.

[Andy_RR]

at least with mechanical systems, the pilot knows they are error prone and usually has a bunch of cross-checks up his (or her!) sleeve.

When electronics are feeding you a dose of pork pies, the tendency is to assume everything's ok. Because the black box says it is, therefore it must be so! How many training organisations will elaborate the procedures for dealing with glass instrument failure?

A (who develops electronic engine control systems for a living!)

[deice]

It doesn't seem likely that anyone will put mechanical devices into the panel of any new designs in this class of aeroplane. It is about as silly as sticking a 1940s engine in them... Oh, I guess they're still doing that...

[soay]

They also announced a Light Sport Aircraft with the following features...
2 seat 1 behind the other

They're side by side, according to this (http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/687-full.html) report at AWweb. This (http://www.aero-news.net/news/sport.cfm?ContentBlockID=FFB25809-F840-4352-8B1E-0E22548B10E5&Dynamic=1) report at ANN states that its cabin is wider than a 172, so tandem seating is highly unlikely.

[HonestoGod]

IO540 .

The Columbia i (integrated) has the autopilot integrated into the G1000. Also has of course the FMS type "readypad" on the arm rest - to take away a lot of the 'fiddley bits' we associate with the G1000. The Columbia fit also allws ref speeds into the G1000/Autopilot interface so that aircraft cannot be stalled or oversped with A/P engaged.