Why do people leave the RAF early?

[UnderPowered]

I'd like this thread to serve as an info database for PMA. Here's how it works:

We write why we're leaving, they read it, and then do something about it, so that the RAF gets better, and retains the right people in sufficient numbers to work properly.

Please post here what you think is wrong, and any percieved fixes.

Cheers.

And yes, I'm leaving. Not because I want to, but because I feel personally under-valued, cannot see an operationally relevant career progression, and am being paid to leave.

I won't spoil it for everyone else by listing the rest. I just hope the big guys pay attention, because I'd rather stay and I bet most of the rest of us want to as well.

[vecvechookattack]

Whats a PMA ?



We write why we're leaving, they read it, and then do something about it, so that the RAF gets better, and retains the right people in sufficient numbers to work properly.
How about doing that via the leaving questionairre and during your interview with the Commodore? That way the correct people get to see why you are leaving and they can feed the information up the correct chain...

There are procedures in place (and have been for many years) for this sort of thing.....why not use them

[vecvechookattack]

Goo point....whe people leave BA....do they mank and moan for weeks and weeks? do they post messages on the PPrune BA site....or do they just walk?

[PPRuNeUser0172]

errrrm

becuase JPA is a disaster

because they can better jobs outside

because they have morals

because they dont want to be a political pawn

because they have had enough

any more?

[The Helpful Stacker]

Goo point....whe people leave BA....do they mank and moan for weeks and weeks? do they post messages on the PPrune BA site....or do they just walk?

Because the RAF is more than just a job, its a lifestyle.

People often feel 'down' when the career they started many moons ago full of hope and dreams becomes just a way of making a wage because all the 'perks' of service life are chipped away by the bean counters. No wonder they want to have a moan about it. Also the camaraderie is sad to let go of and this upsets some people.

My next door neighbour (an AAC type) is being posted to Germany soon, to an old RAF base in fact. When I joined there were loads of places for an RAF service person to go around the world, now they either seem to be 'owned' by the Army now or are sandy and hot. Very soon the posting choices will be Brize, Marham or Lossiemouth for much of the RAF it seems.:(

[TacEval Inject]

Not meaning to point a finger at Stacks, but once again, the RAF appears to have forgotten the SH force.

Unless that was a sly implication that he knows more than than he is letting on..........

If you do end up in the SH force though, you're pretty certain to end up in the sandpit, with the occasional det to the UK.

TI

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

We often forget the SH Force as it is predominantly owned by the Army:p

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[The Swinging Monkey]

UnderPowered,
Its a great idea, but you do understand of course that it will never work.

Don't you think all of those faceless and spineless fools called 'AIRSHIPS' already read this forum? How many threads do you think there has been with people explaining why they are leaving, and the genuine reasons for them walking?

The facts are few and simple..........£££££££££££££££££££££££££

Sorry, but you can bleet all you want, nobody is going to take any notice I'm afraid. Nice idea tho'

Kind regards to all
TSM

[South Bound]

Anecdote from my trade during a meeting with PMA.

"RAF Officer: So then, when are you going to introduce some incentive scheme to keep us in the RAF?
PMA: When we want to keep you in."

Nuff said.

[London Mil]

I will leave after a little under 25 years because I fancy doing something different. Had a great time, would swap it for nothing. I remember in the early days those knackered old gits bleating about this and that, constantly bashing their pint glasses of the bar with a "it's not the same...." whilst telling us all how wonderful life was in Singapore/FEAF/Ghan etc. Looking back, it appears that not much has changed in that respect.

No bitterness, just time to see what else happens in the World.

[JessTheDog]

I left on PVR for three reasons:

1. It was clear that the RAF life was becoming incompatible with family life. It is unrealistic (and extarordinarily bad management) to expect anyone to seriously put their career before their family, except temporarily (exercises etc) or in times of national crisis or war.

2. The gulf between reality and what we were told was reality became quite frankly insulting. The ridiculous base closures and unit cutbacks would in no way increase operational efficiency.

3. The Iraq war was a squalid exercise in deceit that no-one was punished for. If not for the corrosive impact it had on trust in politicians, they would have tried it on again elsewhere.

[dallas]

Anecdote from my trade during a meeting with PMA.

"RAF Officer: So then, when are you going to introduce some incentive scheme to keep us in the RAF?
PMA: When we want to keep you in."

Nuff said.

Provided 'they' are being quite shrewd - and we're talking about the people who introduced JPA - it wouldn't amaze me if the people leaving under their own steam were fulfilling a quota decided upon a while back, achievable through a stealth policy of undermining conditions/quality of life - if so it's clearly been a success.

The problem with opening a floodgate is, unlike redundancy, it's indiscriminate and it isn't always possible to stem the flow. On the one hand it's clever trying to get rid of people on the cheap - just p!ss them off enough - but what if all the pilots leave and none of the clerks? All the indicators I see/hear lead me to believe there could easily be a manpower crisis in the next 5 years. Talk of people's external plans is a daily occurence - not the odd individual from a few years ago. Of course the country can't go undefended, so as insurance the RAF will have age-old safety measures to turn to if things get too bad - perhaps up the PVR waiting time to 3yrs (remember, EU legistlation is only a guideline with the military), perhaps call-up the RAuxAF/reserve commitment people, or how about some form of conscription to handily tackle our 'undisciplined yoof' problem? Remember, when it comes to national security and 'wars on terror', our rights come second.

But it will only be after we suffer a defeat in battle - which we're still some way off for the time being - that a review of our armed forces will recognise the need to repair the damage of underinvestment, to make military service attractive and retentive, while ensuring kit is the best available and not the result of a politically driven gravy train.

Until we literally cannot do the job - not just bleat to say we can't - until we physically cannot beat an enemy, nothing is set to change.

[JessTheDog]

Increasing the PVR wait time (to 3 years for example) is a negative retention factor in itself and may encourage a catastrophic outflow at one time. There is only far that compulsion can be taken before the whole system falls to pieces.

[dallas]

Increasing the PVR wait time (to 3 years for example) is a negative retention factor in itself and may encourage a catastrophic outflow at one time. There is only far that compulsion can be taken before the whole system falls to pieces.

Indeed it is, but retention has hardly been a priority over the last 10yrs has it? So what if people want to leave? Lots of people I know are biding their time and pensions are keeping them in for now - the theory has always been that those who have done 12-17yrs service generation will take our places when we get to the magical 16/22. Or at least that's what 'they' are gambling on. If the people in the 12-17yrs in bracket go, that presents a problem.

'Bored RAF whingers' are automatically regarded as troublesome, but what if we provide an early indicator of what the masses might be thinking? At an accident, if you're trying to save someone's (somethings?) life, check on the quiet ones first...

[OverTq]

1. It was clear that the RAF life was becoming incompatible with family life. It is unrealistic (and extarordinarily bad management) to expect anyone to seriously put their career before their family, except temporarily (exercises etc) or in times of national crisis or war.

But surely that's what being in the services has always been about? I lived in 18 different OMQs during my time in the RAF and did endless dets in the '70s. Hardly 'compatible with family life', but I have a very understanding wife. 'Plus ca change' and all that - the difference now is that people whinge about anything and everything rather than getting on with the job that they're paid (now) a huge amount for. Remember in the days of Harold Wilson when Phantom pilots were paid less than London bus drivers?:=

[JessTheDog]

Family life has changed somewhat since the 70s - not all for the better!

In those good old days, the wife would stay at home and look after the family. It was easier for hubby to relocate then as compared to now, when wives often have careers that require them to stay in one place. This is one example of where change in society has outstripped change in the Armed Forces. A wife staying at home looking after children disgracefully does not get a full pension at the age of 60 as she is not paying NI.

The "civilianisation" of the Armed Forces is embraced by HMG and MoD on certain occasions, such as when it comes to rises to FQ charges in order to line the pockets of a Japanese bank, oops I mean to bring the charges in line with market sector rent.

The demographics may indeed prove troublesome if many of those who are midway to two-thirds of the way towards a pension decide to pull the plug. This may be exacerbated by the new pension scheme - which pays out on a 35 year maximum period of service and doesn't link with inflation until age 60 - and the lack of provision of boarding schools, family healthcare, cheap housing etc that used to be part of the Service lifestyle. So in later years, many of those striving towards a pension - who will have joined in the last 2 years or so - may decide that the pension is not the incentive it once was, and that there are financial and other reasons for leaving - buying a house (rather than paying high FQ rent), allowing the wife (or husband) to earn a decent salary (and a pension in later life), school places, health and dental care etc.

The real pinch point may well be in 10 years time, the 100th anniversary of the RAF, once the inadequacies of the new pension and of the Service lifestyle become apparent!

[dallas]

OverTq

I don't think it's about having to move house every 2-3 years, I don't think it's even about the necessity of multiple out-of-area dets. I don't even think it's about pay.

My job is made 3 times harder by policy that often doesn't make sense. Despite the 'best ideas in the world' me and my mates can't do a thing to improve/suggest things because there is no internal communications policy. While you will readily tell me I don't need one because I'm in the military, what if the higher echelons could benefit from my opinions in forming policy/buying kit without it affecting military discipline? Why not benefit from communicating with people two-way rather than fearing it?

My daily equipment - not the detachment stuff - is old, second rate, often poorly designed and consistently sourced from the cheapest supplier. Nobody has ever asked me what I want or need to do my job better. And when we do get the chance of new kit the presumption has always been that my boss knows all about my job. Let's just say several of my bosses have built careers talking a good job! I need say little more on that subject than JPA.

OOA dets, yeah, they're a core requirement, but why are so many people still on the books who can't deploy? Why am I seemingly from the only country who pay income tax while away or who don't benefit from significantly more cash for being away, such as UN pay in the Balkans? It isn't all about cash, but why should anyone who's unfit ever bother to get fit? So they can go OOA and live in basic conditions for 4 months for essentially no extra money?

And even then, after I've jumped through everyones hoops to get to be away from my family for 4-6 months, I go to Brize to find nobody has bought any new aircraft to get me there - or more importantly get me home - because it doesn't matter to anyone!

For the majority I think you'll find pay is secondary.

[crabbbo]

You are right that pay is not the major factor. In fact the armed forces are very well paid. A number of years ago pay was a major factor - at 38 you were being paid to leave but with the retention schemes this became less important. Having completed 19 years service in the rotary world i left knowing that i would be taking a significant pay cut. However, the improvement in my lifestyle and being able to make decisions of where i go/what i do far out way the drop in salary. The flying i am now doing is just as good and more rewarding than that in the RAF and i do not have any of the secondary duties/trivia to go with it - i am paid to fly.

So lifestyle is a major factor and that is not even to get started on how the armed forces are being used now, poor defence policy and the same people being sent to the same places time and again with little break.

I enjoyed my service and good luck to everyone still in but there is a time to move on.

[OverTq]

but there is a time to move on.
Of course, and that's why when I joined we had a choice of 8, 12 or 16 yrs service (but, of course, there was no opportunity to PVR then). So it's always been the way that the majority stay in long enough to have fun/pain and move on to other things when the time is right for them. I had more fun than pain (except the first 6 yrs) so stayed until the bitter (quite sweet, really) end.

[jayteeto]

How about doing that via the leaving questionairre and during your interview with the Commodore?

What interview?? The one where the clerk asks you for your ID back?

[possel]

I left in 1992 (Sqn Ldr engineer) after 16 years, and have never once regretted it.

My main reasons were that there was a complete lack of career management, and that complete plonkers got promoted whilst people I respected were told that there was no career for them. By products of leaving were continuity of education for my children and continuity in a good job for my wife.

Looking at the forum, and realising that, had I stayed to 55, I would now be counting down my a "days to do" on a wall chart, I am even more glad that I grasped the nettle.

(Actually I have one regret - I left at the time of redundancies and, had I not taken my option, I may have got MORE money by getting a redundancy packege, but I wasn't going to take the risk!)

[snapper41]

I left on PVR for three reasons:
1. It was clear that the RAF life was becoming incompatible with family life. It is unrealistic (and extarordinarily bad management) to expect anyone to seriously put their career before their family, except temporarily (exercises etc) or in times of national crisis or war.

I agree with Jess; this is the thing that will make me leave. I have a handicapped child at home, who puts an incredible amount of strain on family life. The RAF just doesn't understand this, and is unsympathetic. I'm currently away on a 6-monther; when I asked if it could be made a 4-monther, to try to help my wife out, the PMA answer was 'no - it's 6 months'. Great. Thanks, chaps. God knows what state Mrs Snapper will be in when I get back. I could have asked for preferential treatment, but that's not me; I've always followed the flag, but now my family must come first. 2 years to my 44 point...

[itsonlyme]

Hi all,
A hot topic it seems and just thought I'd put my tuppence worth in as well.
Someone asked why people leaving don't just get on with it and stop moaning. I think the reason is that (for myself anyway) it is a little sad to be leaving and although we have made the decision to leave, and yes, for me personally the grass is massively greener on the other side, because of the attachment we feel for the RAF/Services it is really sad to see it going the way it is. There is no way to have an adult conversation about it with people who have enough power to listen and perhaps change things so it is probably out of frustration that you end up venting feelings/moans/frustrations in the hope that someone may actually read and action some common themes (yes, I know, wishful thinking).
A comment about pay earlier in the thread had me chuckling as well. The "huge pay" we receive for the job was how it was put. I genuinely don't think it is pay that is the problem, it is quality of life, however, looking at pay briefly. In the company that I am about to join someone doing my flying job in my position earns over £120,000 per year, so the "huge pay" comment seems slightly absurd. Obviously I'm not able to jump straight into a similar position with the company that I am in the RAF, but, it is comforting to know that a senior FO earns over £90,000 before allowances!
This next one is going to be inflamitory, but what the hell, I'll give it a go anyway. This is definitely not true of all peeps who stay past there exit point/fail to pvr when the market is so good outside but there is a definite pattern. It is without a shadow of a doubt the "easy" option to stay put and cruise/take the pension. No work required, no uncertainty, job for life etc. It is the difficult option to make the leap, you have to put considerable effort into the process and live with uncertaincy for a while, obviously the rewards are also large when the transition has been made. Looking around the bazars at people who are leaving would indicate that they are the people who are talented pilots with the spark and "nounce" to change things in their life. We are losing GOOD people and some would say retaining the not so good element. Very big generalisation I know, and not true in all respects but contains more than a grain of truth if we are all honest about it.
Well that's all for now, fully expecting some harsh comments back from this post!

[Wrathmonk]

Snapper

What you need to do is to be struck down with a mystery allergy that makes you non-deployable to places hot, dusty and sandy (as well as the FI) which somehow manages to miraculously cure itself (temporarily!) when a Flag, sqn exchange (if they still exist!) or some other good (or as good as they get these days) deal appears. Also needs to cure itself when promotion boards sit but reappear when arduous trg courses need to be undertaken.

Of course it would never happen at a secret (and only?) flying base in Norfolk.....:E

[orca]

What i don't understand is the concept of 'leaving early' when you've got to a pension point. Surely this is 'leaving on time'. I have had many conversations with people trying to decide why there is an exodus at 38/ 16years - the answer is simple - people have had a challenging career, their circumstances have changed, they could do with a change, and guess what - the military is now going to pay them a not insignificant amount forever, so long as they leave!

[bufe01]

I've been observing all this as an outsider now for almost a year but I've got a couple of doubts:

How can you complain beeing deployed beeing a military pilot, i guess it comes with a job especially in a country like the UK with a vast influence and interest overseas and his foreign affair politics.

As pilots we get a chance at another job because we have been in the air force, never forget that!

Yes It's true we all love the lifestyle, the camraderie, the flying and so on but we are adults, allegedly beeing pilots, so let's just leave like real gentlemen just remembering the good old times. We are doing no good to anybody moaning and reminding people and ourselves what's wrong.

I don't know if i'll leave my air force when the time will come but that's how I would like to shaking hands and parting ways.

Cheers

[Captain Kirk]

A lot of very valid observations emerging here – how I hope that some notice is taken of them.

Bufe – the RAF is, ‘person for person’, probably the most capable, achieving, (dare I say ‘agile’ – probably not!) Air Force in the world. This is only because of the deep personal commitment of its personnel; we are immensely proud to have earned a place in such an organisation, alongside such extremely capable colleagues, and proud of what we can achieve. It should therefore be no surprise that we find it immensely frustrating to watch, powerless, as so much of what we believe in is eroded.

For some time the operational end of the Service has held it together, whatever the odds, while the support has been stripped away around us – I fear that we are nearing breaking point. ‘Savings measures’ mean ‘let the front-line to cope’ while expecting the same output. Loyalty is expected but if we abandon the families of our personnel, can we really expect to come out on top of that particular conflict of interests? Dental and medical support is fragile enough if you are serving, and a distant memory for families despite the remote location of our MOBs. Quarters are in short supply (despite our diminished strength?) and often in poor condition while the maintenance contracts are a model of appalling service – and yet the rates go up to bring them into line with the civilian sector. In the civilian sector, companies pay handsomely to move their valued personnel. In the RAF it costs you money each time you move somewhere you may not particularly want to go.

I recently sat through several PMA lectures, every one of which had powerpoint bullet points stating the need to increase stability and retention – not one of the presentations offered anything of substance to achieve this laudable goal. If only our problems were powerpoint deep.

I will also join ‘itsonlyme’ in being contentious – it’s a 2-tier RAF: those that work their socks off and those that do not. We know where the division lies and yet PMA insist on this ‘best man for the job’ policy which is code for ‘we don’t have the right people so we will pretend their specialist skills aren’t really necessary’ = more risk at the front line.

For the record, I elected to remain beyond my 38 point, in part at least because I want to make a difference. Increasingly though, I wonder if it is not selfish for me to impose this lifestyle upon my young family – that is where my next decision will be made.

[vecvechookattack]

How about doing that via the leaving questionairre and during your interview with the Commodore?

What interview?? The one where the clerk asks you for your ID back?



In the RN if you put in your letter you are invited to complete a questionairre and then invited over to have a coffee with the Commodore. Its a very informal chat (He doesn't want you to or try to change your mind) but he just wants to get a feeling on the reasons you have decided to leave.

[vecvechookattack]

What i don't understand is the concept of 'leaving early' when you've got to a pension point. Surely this is 'leaving on time'. I have had many conversations with people trying to decide why there is an exodus at 38/ 16years - the answer is simple - people have had a challenging career, their circumstances have changed, they could do with a change, and guess what - the military is now going to pay them a not insignificant amount forever, so long as they leave!

Couldnt agree more. People join the services at a young age and expect to have a laugh with a good bunch of blokes, travel the world and get pissed. They do that for a few years and then the Mrs and family come along and so they decide to stay...stay until they have collected the pension. Once that is complete its time to go. They are not leaving early...

[The Gorilla]

I think if you were to line up 50 people who have left each one would have a different primary reason for leaving. After all it is a completely personal decision to leave and a very hard one to take.

itsonlyme said
It is without a shadow of a doubt the "easy" option to stay put and cruise/take the pension. No work required, no uncertainty, job for life etc. It is the difficult option to make the leap,

How true that is and in my case was responsible for me having a miserable last two years when I had already made my mind up to go. Once you actually get out here the grass really is greener as I have said many times before. You get all your freedom back and it isn't until you get out that you realise just how repressive being in the military is. That said you forget all the bad stuff very quickly, I remember only the marvellous times and only miss only good people I worked with.

Having watched from the sidelines over the last three years I realise now, that without a doubt I got out at exactly the right time.
:)

[Easily Distracted]

I believe most people join the military as a vocation; it isn't a job you 'accidentally' find yourself in. It is the lifestyle and esprit de corps that attract, not to get rich.

This was reflected in the wages paid (lower than that paid to someone of equal ability, drive and willingness to take responsibility) in civi street and the benefits available to counter the balance (low rent, cheap messing, free gym etc). As a volunteer, I was more than happy to accept these ‘terms and conditions’.

However, I like a lot of people feel that I am being treated more and more like an employee who can expect limited (if any) loyalty from the firm. JPA, Pay as You Dine and increasing MQ rents will continue to erode our wage and quality of life. When I tried to discuss the realities of the service with a senior officer in 'Human Resources', he replied to my criticism with the line:

"Well, you have to remember that we have to think 'What would a civilian company do in that situation?'"

Struggle to recruit and retain possibly…

[225Turbo]

I am going to PVR in the next 4-6 months.

When I joined up (at 16), being in the RAF was all I ever wanted to do. I wanted to be involved with aircraft, serve my country, travel the world and have a laugh with some good mates. I have done all of these, and more !

Some years later, my whole outlook has changed, I do not feel that I am serving 'MY' country. The aircraft I wanted to be employed on are falling apart. The opportunity for Travel has diminished to the point that you can only really travel to Hot, Sandy Sh*tholes, or be almost as far South as it is possible.

Yes, my situation has changed, Im now a married man with a family, and they are the most important thing in the world to me. The RAF does not look after its people well enough to make me want to stay in. The personnel who are so called 'Leaders' or 'Managers' have lost touch with reality. Do they really think all is well with the morale of the RAF? If not, why are they not doing something about it????:confused:

[roush]

Man, this is a depressing thread. I was enjoying my career up to this point but now I think I’ll PVR.

Seriously though, I did submit a PVR a few years back due to lack of opportunities and challenges. I had decided to join a civilian company paying considerably more than I was earning in the RAF. Then a few months before my exit date (was just about to start resettlement) PMA rang to let me know about a new position that had become available. It was made clear that this was not being offered as an incentive to keep me in, but just some information that I should know about.

I rescinded my PVR and took the new post. Haven’t looked back since, next stop pension.

Just lucky I guess.

[juliet]

Ive been in for 5 years, 4 of those front line multi. I would leave tomorrow if I thought that I would be allowed to. As it stands ive another 2 1/2 years to do to fullfill my return of service. I am undervalued, taken advantage of and not respected. Why would I stay?

[SmilingKnifed]

Because working for a bankrupt company sucks. No matter what business you're in.:(

[demobcurious]

Why leave? Because I value me far more than my political masters value me!

I don't mind going to dangerous places every now and again, it's part of the job, I knew that when I signed the dotted line and it can be quite good fun in an odd sort of way. But going used to be interspersed with training and exercises (remember them?). I take the Queen's shilling and when needed put myself in harms way - but it doesn't take long to figure out that living in harms way quite as often as some of us are is just giving the bad guys too big a target, especially with the (lack of) kit we have.

To make it simple to the civvies that keep popping in here and telling us we should expect to get shot it 'cos we're in the military - well yes we should. And we do. But you'd have to be mad to hang around somewhere where they're doing it regularly and any fun stuff has been policed to death!

[bufe01]

Dear Capt Kirk,
I agree with you, probably I don't know much about the support aspects you mention but as far as agile, achieving, flexible I learned to admire the RAF.
Still don't understand pilots having been in the squadron just a few years already complaining and with their life already planned to leave, funny thing I guess that's partly happening in my Air Force as well.
There must be more.
Do you think invading......i don't know Lybia staging out of Ibiza or Sardinia would help?
Cheers
Bufe

[vecvechookattack]

Ive been in for 5 years, 4 of those front line multi. I would leave tomorrow if I thought that I would be allowed to. As it stands ive another 2 1/2 years to do to fullfill my return of service. I am undervalued, taken advantage of and not respected. Why would I stay?


We had a brief from Fleet a couple of months ago where they stated that "In working practice there is no such thing as Return of Service"... It is appled (as we all know) but it is probably illegal. They stated 2 cases wgere people tried to leave whilst still shackled to a Return of Service...the 2 individuals paid about £50 a piece for strongly worded letters from solicitors and the Navy backed away.... Im sure the RAF will be the same. They can do without a long protracted court case (which they will lose) and so if you put your letter in accompanied with a solicitors letter Im sure you will find the door being held open wide.

[Pontius Navigator]

To flesh what Capt Kirk said about support services.

1 Gp was so leaned that there was open sky between a flt lt SO3 and the 2*. The sqn ldr was posted. The wg cdr PVRd and was gapped. The gp capt came late and was then moved. The AC was detached. The other staffs were similarly stretched so there was no possibility of reach across.

One scheme to establish 'task forces' with a leader and helped by 'best man for the job' regardless of rank (flt lt-wg cdr :bored: ) did not get off the ground.

Bring back the old 1 Gp where Ops 1 could cover Ops 2 etc with proper leave rotation across the HQ and no OOA.

While people might hate RAFP and staff weenies in equal measure you do need enough staff to take some of the weight out of the cockpit.

[vecvechookattack]

This is a good thread and has spawned many arguments for leaving the RAF (Services) However, is there anyone out there that is staying?

Why do people stay in the RAF ?

[A2QFI]

1. Some people can survive the rubbish and love what they do.
2. They are too near a good pension to quit early.
3. They couldn't survive in the harsh World outside.
4. Some other reasons, discuss.

[BEagle]

1. Brat breeders' boarding school allowance, or whatever it's called now - they couldn't afford to leave.

2. Being in an aircrew trade which has little or no commercial attraction - no outside jobs.

3. Being someone who has shafted JOs in the past in his quest for stars, now thinks about PVRing. Suddenly discovering that the ex-RAF mates airline jungle drums have black-spotted him for ever, so has to stay in as there is a "If you ever get an application from this d*ckhead, throw it away" memo in most airline recruiters' offices about him.....

[teeteringhead]

"If you ever get an application from this d*ckhead, throw it away"...EDS didn't have one of those then.....

[BEagle]

Not an airline, as far as I'm aware....

[kms901]

I'm sorry to have to add this. I am an outsider who made a conscious decision not to join the RAF sometime ago despite years in my school CCF and a Flying Scholarship. I think the men and women of the Royal Air Force are the best of the best, but the world has changed, The idea of pre-planning a 9/13/18/22 year career is ludicrous. If you are not happy, vote with your feet. Change jobs and change careers completely. Nothing is permanent. Learn to adapt and stop complaining. You will soon learn in the outside world that your current abilities are most important.

[Captain Kirk]

kms - if you have never experienced the commitment, loyalty and mutual respect that comes with serving amongst 'the best' then that is your loss and I, for one, do not envy you one bit. If you have no regrets – why are you hanging on the words of these threads?

I would not change my past. To succeed in a difficult job, with little and sometimes no margin for error, to go into harm’s way surrounded by determined and courageous people, to lead these people is rewarding beyond description.

This is what lights our fire – this is why people stay. But demobcurious put’s it very well - it must be balanced. Currently it is not and that is why we see such committed people leaving.

Bufe - which air force?

[kms901]

The people I have worked with over the last 20 years are as technically able, committed, tough and passionate as anyone. I have lost a few good friends over the years, and I trust my crew with my life. I have to. We have no guarantees, no pension schemes, but my crew are as good as it gets. And we all know when we have done a good job.

Don't talk down to me. I pay your wages.

[Wrathmonk]

Captain Kirk

I concur!

A trawl through kms901s posts would highlight the following quotes (and all within the last 12 mths or so!):

"I got my PPL about a year ago (To be more accurate I was up to 200 hours over a decade ago, but practical considerations got in the way and I had to start again.)"

"As a humble PPL of 20 years experience with 1100 hours (1500 t/offs and landings)"

"I am only an amateur pilot"

"I am a PPL based in Italy"

"I am now living in Italy"

Now being a mere humble military aviator I leave you to draw your own conclusions, but IMHO, if he lives in Italy and works out of Italy he may not even pay our wages. The ItAF perhaps ...:p

Furthermore - "lost a few good friends over the years", "trust my life with my crew, I have to", "no pension scheme". Sounds like a mercenary to me! Perhaps he doesn't pay tax at all? Flies Ryan Air a lot mind and seems to be highly critical of their flight deck crew abilities. Maybe he pays their wages as well?:E

kms901 - I don't give two hoots whether you think that paying a miniscule amount of my, or any other Crown employee wages gives you the right to be treated differently or not talked down to. Military Aircrew forum for military aircrew and their backroom support team. You are neither, so with all due respect, stay in the PPL forum theres a good chap.:ok:

[cazatou]

kms901,

"Don't talk down to me, I pay your wages"

Have you been there waiting for the last one to return from a mission over hostile country?

Have you sat there waiting for departure time wondering if its your name that will be rubbed off the board later that night?

Do you operate (lights out) at 50 ft at night to put your bombs on the target?

Do you realise the frustration that arises when the time for your phone call home coincides with an "alert" and you miss out yet again?

You come and do this job and WE will pay your wages!!!

[Captain Kirk]

...and relax!

kms - no offence intended. You may however wish to consider that phrases like ‘Learn to adapt and stop complaining. You will soon learn…’ might be regarded as somewhat condescending.

Now, returning to the point…

[kms901]

Ok, folks, calm down.

I think the men and women of the RAF are the best. Full stop. No caveats. I live in Italy, but pay taxes in the UK. Apart from the first 30 hours (oh, and the gliding bit), I have paid for all my flying over the past 30 years. I wouldn't have it any other way. I guess I am not the kind of person who wants to be told where and when they are going to fly, which is why I wold not do it for a living.

But there are other walks of life with inherent dangers,and less backup. It's just that we all have choices. however much it hurts, you may have to vote with your feet in the end.

Dont be irreplaceable. If you are, it is very hard to get promoted.

[Samuel]

Then again, you probably weren't good enough to get in?:suspect:

That last comment by the way is utter nonsense. No one, but no one in any armed service is irreplaceable. The concept is quite illogical! If you think you are, shove your arm into a bucket of water and measure the hole it leaves when you pull it out.

[navibrator]

Goo point....whe people leave BA....do they mank and moan for weeks and weeks? do they post messages on the PPrune BA site....or do they just walk?

If I could understand what the hell you are on about I would post an appropriate reply!

[navibrator]

1. Brat breeders' boarding school allowance, or whatever it's called now - they couldn't afford to leave.
2. Being in an aircrew trade which has little or no commercial attraction - no outside jobs.
3. Being someone who has shafted JOs in the past in his quest for stars, now thinks about PVRing. Suddenly discovering that the ex-RAF mates airline jungle drums have black-spotted him for ever, so has to stay in as there is a "If you ever get an application from this d*ckhead, throw it away" memo in most airline recruiters' offices about him.....

BEagle

1. No one stays in just because they get BSA.

2. All personnel in the RAF have something to offer the private sector. Just because we aren't all pilots doesn't mean to say we are not employable.

3. Isn't it sad that blackballing is still evident.

Conclusion: You are from an RAF that changed years ago. The fact you still have contacts with the current one is irrelevant. Indeed, I wonder what good you did for the RAF in your day? Oh yes, you left. Thanks for that.

[navibrator]

The people I have worked with over the last 20 years are as technically able, committed, tough and passionate as anyone. I have lost a few good friends over the years, and I trust my crew with my life. I have to. We have no guarantees, no pension schemes, but my crew are as good as it gets. And we all know when we have done a good job.
Don't talk down to me. I pay your wages.

Pay my wages? The fact is we also pay for our own wages so I think we as much right to say what we think as you!

[BEagle]

"Indeed, I wonder what good you did for the RAF in your day?"

Helped a large number of folk to obtain cheap ATPLs, for one thing!

"All personnel in the RAF have something to offer the private sector. Just because we aren't all pilots doesn't mean to say we are not employable"

Of course - and you can always add the chip off your shoulder to all the others you will be serving in MacDonalds.

[navibrator]

"Indeed, I wonder what good you did for the RAF in your day?"
Helped a large number of folk to obtain cheap ATPLs, for one thing!
"All personnel in the RAF have something to offer the private sector. Just because we aren't all pilots doesn't mean to say we are not employable"
Of course - and you can always add the chip off your shoulder to all the others you will be serving in MacDonalds.

The fact I am still serving blows your case. You are typical of the so called one wing master race. I suppose you think getting folk cheap ATPLs has had a positive impact on the RAF! I presume you are one who also just can't let the RAF go!

[BEagle]

Two winged master race, actually, do get your insults accurate!

The 4-star thought it was a very good recruiting and retention measure - the idea being to retain people a little longer than the RAF was managing at the time.

[Mr Teatime]

Just put my 2 pennorth in if I may. I recently signed on as PA. There are many reasons why I am staying in. I love the flying, the people and the whole camaraderie thing. I could get a job outside, I looked at many, but none really floated my boat. Mrs Teatime wasn't that bothered if I stayed or went. She dislikes the time I spend away but that could happen in many jobs. I chose to extend my RAF career and on my head be it. I do get a little tired however of everyone telling me on these forums (well OK not telling me directly) how good it is outside, how stupid I am to stay in or how unemployable I am. I made a choice, mine and it is the right one for me. The grass maybe greener but from where I am it is just a different shade.

[NutLoose]

I do remember a time when the RAF was awash with Chief Technician ranks, they therefore offered them the chance to leave etc if desired and it would not I believe effect their pensions etc..............

End result, those Chiefs that were any good and would get a job packed up and left, end result the RAF suffered from being left with the dross that had been promoted up out of the way.........

No doubt nothing has changed....

[C130 Techie]

I do remember a time when the RAF was awash with Chief Technician ranks, they therefore offered them the chance to leave etc if desired and it would not I believe effect their pensions etc..............

End result, those Chiefs that were any good and would get a job packed up and left, end result the RAF suffered from being left with the dross that had been promoted up out of the way.........

No doubt nothing has changed....

What utter drivel!! This would suggest that the current stock of WOs and Flt Sgts, of which I am part, in the technical trades was derived from the 'dross' that was left behind.

I would suggest that if you targeted any specific rank in any specific trade and offered them a financial incentive to leave then a cross section of the good and bad would accept the offer for a variety of reasons.

The only gripe I have is that we do not allow our Chf Techs to sign on to age 55. So much experience goes out of the door at age 47 when many would be happy to stay.

Mr Teatime - Well said. You have hit the nail squarely on the head. Although I am in a ground trade I totally agree with your post!

[Biggus]

navibrator

I know at least one person who told me he couldn't afford to leave because of BSA (now CEA), and I don't believe he is alone!.

He has 3 kids at boarding school. You do the sums (3 x BSA x 3 terms/0.59) to work out how much extra he would have had to earn (gross) outside to be on the equivalent salary!!

A LOT ISN'T IT!!

[Mr Teatime]

C130 Techie,

Cheers mate. :) I'd like all the Chiefs in my fleet to get the chance to stay in if they want as they are all top blokes to a man.:ok:

[C130 Techie]

navibrator
I know at least one person who told me he couldn't afford to leave because of BSA (now CEA), and I don't believe he is alone!.
He has 3 kids at boarding school. You do the sums (3 x BSA x 3 terms/0.59) to work out how much extra he would have had to earn (gross) outside to be on the equivalent salary!!
A LOT ISN'T IT!!

Sorry but the argument is flawed.

BSA (CEA) is paid to servicemen so that they can put their children into boaring school to ensure stability for their eductaion whilst the serviceman moves around on posting.

If you leave the services you provide the stability by settling down in civilian life and your children can be educated at local schools thus removing the need for BSA.

You can hardly blame the system if you choose to continue with the expense of boarding schools once you leave.

My father served in the Army in Germany and I went to boading school, on his return to the UK on last tour I moved to a local school to complete my education.

[Gezaware]

Dear All
I am fast approaching my decision point to stay PA or exit at 38/16 in a years time. I have, upto now found it difficult to make the decision between the airlines and extended service on the PA spine. I have had a fantastic time and by choice have remained FJ flying throughout and still enjoy working with like minded and for the most part, well motivated individuals.
I remain convinced that the gripes and groans we have now are not altogether that different from years ago and that the core issues remain. I believe it is not the issue of pay, unless of course you as am I, are on the recieving end of some top level JPA baffoonery. It is undoubtedly the demand for a better quality of life and ideed to be in control of ones life that drives people to pastures new. Work to live and not live to work. If you make the decision to leave, which I have pretty much done, then as long as you accept the grass will not be any greener then you should be fine. I am sure the flying will be not as challenging and there too you will have moans and groans but of a different kind. Many of my mates have made the step and are enjoying life and don't look back. I would like to hear of any others approaching their respective exit/decision points.

[Biggus]

C130 Techie

I wasn't making an arguement - I was simply stating a fact! Navibrator said ... "No one stays in just because they get BSA".... I was merely stating that I have met at least one person for whom that is in fact the case. The person in question wanted his kids to remain in private education - because of the QUALITY of education they were receiving. He would not have been able to do that if he left the RAF, so he stayed.

The morals of should/shouldn't you educate your children privately, etc I will leave for others to argue. My sole point is that I have met at least one person for whom loss of BSA was a significant reason for staying in the RAF - A POINT WHICH STILL STANDS. It is a fact, pure and simply, not an arguement. You may disagree with the person in questions desires/morals/values - but you cannot ignore the fact that he has them!!

Neither am I in any way .... 'blaming the system'. I repeat once again I am merely stating that for at least one person loss of BSA was a reason not to leave the RAF!!

[NutLoose]

What utter drivel!! This would suggest that the current stock of WOs and Flt Sgts, of which I am part, in the technical trades was derived from the 'dross' that was left behind.

I would suggest that if you targeted any specific rank in any specific trade and offered them a financial incentive to leave then a cross section of the good and bad would accept the offer for a variety of reasons.

The only gripe I have is that we do not allow our Chf Techs to sign on to age 55. So much experience goes out of the door at age 47 when many would be happy to stay.

Mr Teatime - Well said. You have hit the nail squarely on the head. Although I am in a ground trade I totally agree with your post!



I am not talking about current times but in the early eighties......... if it has taken you 24 years to go up a rank something must be wrong lol

[navibrator]

navibrator
I know at least one person who told me he couldn't afford to leave because of BSA (now CEA), and I don't believe he is alone!.
He has 3 kids at boarding school. You do the sums (3 x BSA x 3 terms/0.59) to work out how much extra he would have had to earn (gross) outside to be on the equivalent salary!!
A LOT ISN'T IT!!

Biggus
Anyone who arranges their finances so they can't afford to leave because of BSA is barking. It is an allowance and like all allowances, could be removed at a future date. It is there for continuity of education - not just to put your children through a good school. I know how much it is because I used to claim it! For what it is worth, I remain in the RAF because I like it. I just wish the habitual whingers just left and let those who are committed to a life in the Services get on with it.

[C130 Techie]

Biggus. Apologies for the misunderstanding.


Nutloose. No I spent 7 years as a Chief Tech and I still think that you are talking rubbish! Those WOs and Flt Sgts who I served with in the late eighties and early nineties who would presumably have been derived from your 'dross' of the early eighties were no different to any other period of my time in the RAF.

[Online ACM]

I'm still having a great time. I quite enjoy going away with my crew to Afganistan/Iraq or whichever sh:mad: thole next; providing there is some variety. The pay is good enough - just (although I object to a tube driver earning more than a pilot!). I do get pissed off about JPA (still not been paid properly), Aircraft sertvicability etc. but it is still a great job.

I'm 31, when I'm 38 maybe i'll feel different and leave, maybe that will not happen till 45 or 55 but be sure when that day comes there will be someone like me to take my place; equally skilled and enthusiastic. Life changes, people and jobs change, so get with it or get out. If you can't see what's good about this job then let someone in who can.:)

[A2QFI]

BSA certainly comes into the equation somewhere. I know a Wg Cdr who was selected for a 'Blue letter' of enforced redundancy which appeared to be based on what he was costing the RAF. 3 children on BSA = a lot of money = redundancy = good cost saving. He left and carved himself a distinguished career elswehere.

[LFFC]

BSA certainly comes into the equation somewhere. I know a Wg Cdr who was selected for a 'Blue letter' of enforced redundancy which appeared to be based on what he was costing the RAF. 3 children on BSA = a lot of money = redundancy = good cost saving. He left and carved himself a distinguished career elswehere.

Think I'm right in saying that BSA/CEA forms a massive part of the allowances package yet it's claimed by statistically very few in the Armed Forces. It wouldn't surprise me if it's targeted for the next round of cuts - particularly now that we have so few locations left to move to. :ooh:

Mind you, I guess the government would be forced to cut the same allowance for the Civil Service too - so we're probably safe!!

[Rev I. Tin]

Think I'm right in saying that BSA/CEA forms a massive part of the allowances package yet it's claimed by statistically very few in the Armed Forces. It wouldn't surprise me if it's targeted for the next round of cuts - particularly now that we have so few locations left to move to. :ooh:
Mind you, I guess the government would be forced to cut the same allowance for the Civil Service too - so we're probably safe!!

Eek. Dont say that! You will put a pox on it!!
Too many Senior Hoccifers claim the allowance to drop it! Surely?

[Wrathmonk]

LFFC

I think you may be close to the truth! What erks the bean counters are people who don't move very often (ie some of those at Marham / Coltishall / Lossie who have been on the same unit for 10 yrs +) and live in their own house but because they are technically "following the flag" are still able to claim CEA.

Rev

Even sadder are that those in a position to influence the bean counters have already passed the need for CEA as their kids have long since flown the nest. Now what they need to do is protect their entertainment allowance, first class travel, house manager, house cook etc. Robbing Peter to pay Paul springs to mind. :*

Believe there is a "strategic allowances review" ongoing / in the pipeline - I'm sure the rumours are out there somewhere but when has "review" ever meant anything other than cut! :mad:

Just hope if CEA goes it doesn't go until after Sep 07 and then there are reserve rights for those already on it!

Oh, and don't forget FQ charges will continue to be increased above inflation / pay rise as the deal with Annington Homes was, I believe, to bring charges in line with "civilian" house rental charges (and cause a similar amount of pain when London weighting was removed for many other lines of work - Police and Fire I believe were two). How much does a 3/4 bedroom house cost to rent in the High Wycombe area? And would you want to pay market rates for the standard of the majority of FQ's these days?

I appreciate all you non-mil types will weigh in with the "welcome to the real world" statements but it is another so-called quality of life "pull" factor that is being eroded and may be a reason for people to leave. Moving house every 2-3 years makes trying to stay in an ever (price) increasing housing market difficult, particularly when moving from (say) Norfolk to (say) Northwood (my 4 bedroom detached house in Norfolk would have bought me a one bedroom attic conversion in Northwood - great when you're married with 2 kids!). And some of us don't get the option to stay at the same location year after year.

Personally, I still get enough from being in the Service not to want to leave just yet. But if circumstances change I will leave, in the same way as if I was out in the big wide world that is "civvie-street". Give and work your required notice and leave. Don't monk - just go. Simple as that. Having already done 20yrs + I don't see it being disloyal - HM has had her fair share of my time and life! I'd rather leave with my head held high than leave all bitter and twisted moping on about "the good old days" and "it ain't how it used to be".

[500days2do]

Wow ....only 10 years at one unit !!!

There are plenty at Lyneham who have been there for 15-20 years :uhoh:

I wonder what the record is...:eek:

I wonder too if they check up on these peeps who claim BSA...bet they have been in same situ for years without a move...maybe the odd sqn change to keep the desk man happy.:=

5d2d

[Pontius Navigator]

AFAIK, the posting rules for airmen, set out in the '70s still apply. This was that an airman would be posted to fulfill a vacancy caused by someone posted overseas, promoted or retired. At the time I knew a steward who was an SAC serving in the feeder at Cottesmore for 17 yrs.

I know a kipper fleet pilot who (as far as I remember) never served outside Scotland and rose to become AOSNI.

Many aircrew serve their entire career with one type on one base. It is almost the same with some engineers rising through the ranks to sqn ldr branch and being essentially a unit subject matter expert.

Given the quartering situation I believe it is not unknown for people to retain a quarter during the odd periods at the ministry etc. At a secret air base in Wiltshire one quarters occupant had installed his own patio, new fence, glass greenhouse, swimming pool etc.

[Pontius Navigator]

I wonder too if they check up on these peeps who claim BSA...bet they have been in same situ for years without a move...maybe the odd sqn change to keep the desk man happy.:=
5d2d

No perfectly legit. You are always 'liable' if unlikely to get a posting away. CEA is therefore a 'necessity'. Your truck driver just 'might' get a posting to Strike and expect never to return.

And pigs mght fly.

More likely was the east coast shuffle with the Tornado or Fighter Control.

[777fly]

This thread seems to be drifting off the point a little. I am a non-military flyer, but my son is a fast jet pilot considering PVR.

My feeling is that there is a serious failure of management within both the RAF and RN airborne services.These failures appear to range through inadequate supply of often incompatible equipment, to chaotic 'off the cuff' operational planning, to lack of career/ lifestyle management and progression for highly trained and motivated personnel. It is obvious that job satisfaction, rather than financial reward, is what attracts 'the best' into military flying and this appears to allow whoever you call 'management' to control your lives in an indifferent and uncaring way. What angers me, as a considerable taxpayer, is the apparent profligate waste of expensive material and human resources that is going on. The premature retirement of the SHAR and Jaguar are a prime example, plus the considerable disillusion expressed in this forum as a result of poor career management.

As already observed, it may take a military defeat to turn the tide on this state of affairs, but meantime I am deeply saddened by the apparent physical and mental depletion of our armed services. Maybe I am only seeing the negatives?

With respect to all.............777fly

[225Turbo]

It isn't just the aircrew that are PVR' ing.

[400Rulz]

:ok: You got it in a nutshell. As a pilot officer in the RNZAF (I joined at the max age after completing a bachelors degree, followed by a management diploma), I was constantly poo-pooed by Squadron Commanders that thought they knew best but couldn't see the wood for the trees. Pilots were leaving in droves, and nothing was being done to address the problem. In one week there were 14 717's (get out quick requests). A few ended up in court, such was the desire to get out. And it was not just for the money a pilot could make on the outside. It was much more to do with the instability in the home (moving every two years), and the autocratic way that squadrons were run. "Management" were never at fault, a/c unserviceability was always the fault of the techies, and the upper echelons (read REMF's) could do no wrong. Government cutbacks meant a virtual end to continuation training (both in contract simulators and on-line), and some pilots were consequently failing standards checks. Crew resource management was non-existent - a co-pilot was expected to fly as a one man crew on a large multi for his check. Don't get me wrong, I loved my time in the Airforce, flying with REGULAR guys, but the REMF's screw it up. I had one (WCDR) who, when I resigned, told me I would never fly with a commercial airline! This is coming from someone who forgot to put the gear down and ended up having to go-around - despite my call of "No Gear". Such is life. It suits some, and not others. To all those that stay, be the best you can, those of us that have left appreciate your dedication. To those of you who want to call it quits, go. There is a big world out there with lots of flying opportunities. It may not be as exciting, but it is reasonably stable. And most of you have done your part. Don't feel bad about leaving, and don't let others diss you for doing so.:ok: