Class D to C handovers

[GroundBound]

At the weekend I obtained a clearance to cross Class D airspace, VFR, at FL65. The next airspace adjacent to this was Class C, above 4500ft. This meant on leaving the Class D airspace I would need clearance to enter the class C. As the two controlled airspaces were adjacent, I expected the first unit to hand me over to the next unit.
Instead, a few miles from the boundary they simply tossed me from their frequency. This meant I had only a few miles in which to contact the next unit and obtain entry clearance. In fact, I believe we were already in their airspace by the time I had finished the initial call. The next unit, however, appeared totally unphased by this.
Now, this seemed to me to be all wrong. Both class D and class C airspaces are controlled airspace, and need a clearance to enter, even if VFR. If two controlled areas abut one another, surely ATC is repsonsible for coordinating the entry into the next airspace?
Any views?

[Spitoon]

For VFR - no. Technically, for IFR it is also the pilot's responsibility to get a clearance to enter any portion of controlled airspace.

But it certainly is nice if ATC help out. If it doesn't look like the current unit will do a handover (which is not a clearance to enter the next bit of airspace), you can always ask - if it's not busy they may do it for you.

In this case it sounds like the first unit may have given your details to the next which might be why the second unit were not unduly concerned by your late call.

There's no way to be sure though, unless you ask the controllers on duty at the time. And just to be really unhelpful - controllers can be contrary beasts, what they do one day they may not do the next! You clearly understand that the bottom line is that the pilot is ultimately responsible for getting a clearance into any controlled airspace.

[T9-ATCO]

I think that controller made mistake, because if yo want to transit from D to C class of the airspace, then controller working in D should transfer you to the one working in C airspace, or at least give them rough estimate for entering their airspace!!! Taking into account that in C class of airspace VFR and IFR are separated, controllers must be aware of your intentions to fly in their airspace, so I would at least pass all pertinent information to controllers working in adjacent sector for SAFETY REASONS!!! IT IS CONTROLLERS MISTAKE!

[GroundBound]

Well, the lack of replies to my question has been very disappointing - and illustrative in itself.

As an ex-controller myself, I cannot understand the reply from Spitoon. Why does being VFR change anything? If I was IFR, passing from one controlled airspace to another I would be transferred. Although VFR, I still need clearance. This was also an international flight on a filed flight plan, passing through adjacent controlled airspace.

I see that at least T9 shares a similar view as myself - although I chose not to be so specific in my words.

Having just browsed through the response to another thread on VFR flights in controlled airspace (along with other similar past threads on Class-D airspace), I see that there is much personal interpretation over the VFR issue.

GB

[Spitoon]

I can understand your disappointment, GroundBound - I too am surprised that your question did not generate more responses.

However, for the controller to have made a mistake - as T9 suggests - there must be an explicit requirement placed on the controller to pass on the details. As far as I am aware there is no such requirement - indeed, it is quite explicitly the pilot's responsibility to obtain a clearance (if one is required) to enter controlled airspace.

I don't disagree that it is helpful - and safer - to pass on details of flights in the circumstances that were originally described but as a controller I will prioritise what I have to do and there are many things that come above passing details of VFR flights.

GB, as an ex-controller, surely you must recognise the difference in handling of VFR and IFR flight plans, and as a pilot, of the differences in the way in which flights can be conducted under the different rules. It's a while since I did FPLs but, as I recall, an international VFR FPL gets addressed to each FIR en-route and the destination aerodrome whereas an IFR plan gets sent (in broad terms) to every unit that the aircraft will work along the route. Similarly, subject to clearances when necessary, a VFR flight may not do what it said it would do just 30 seconds ago.......and have every right to! So, I'm afraid IFR flights get handled differently to VFR.

What you see as interpretation in the various threads is probably more a reflection of the differing degrees of help that individual controllers are prepared to provide to VFR flights than any different understanding of the basic international rules for ATC handling of VFR flights....which are minimal.

[Edited to add VFR in the big para]

[SM4 Pirate]

In Oz, you only need to request a clearance once, prior to entry. If you enter in a class D then go into class C your 'onwards' clearance is implicit unless you are advised of a specific clearance limit. That goes for all pertinent airspace classes where you would need a clearance.

So in GBs example, down here, the Tower Controller (doing class D) would have coordintated with the Enroute or TMA controller doing the class C and the transfer would have ocurred seamlessly.

[GroundBound]

That's exactly what I would expect.

I really don't understand how a controller can "throw away" a flight which is still in his airspace, but needs clearance to enter the next airpace, without coordinating the entry.

Previous experience has been exactly this - when flying through class B into adjacent class B, on a VFR "crossing request" I was handed over from the first unit to the second unint, seamlessly.

This was why I was surprised on this specific occasion. It did occur to me that the handling controller may not have appreciated that at FL65, I would be in class D airspace of the next unit (which starts at 4500ft). Most VFR flights are lower and would pass into the FIR, rather than class-D.

GB

[bookworm]

In Oz, you only need to request a clearance once, prior to entry. If you enter in a class D then go into class C your 'onwards' clearance is implicit unless you are advised of a specific clearance limit.

I think this is the crux of the issue. A clearance is more than just a permission, it's a shared plan.

The standard UK phraseology for VFR (and in some cases, IFR) is "Cleared to enter controlled airspace." This falls short of the ICAO PANS-ATM definition of a clearance (and indeed the definition in MATS Part 1 in which that phraseology is specified!). "Cleared to transit controlled airspace on present track" or similar would be better.

This sounds pedantic, but it would reduce the ambiguity that GroundBound describes. If the clearance specifies the plan to the point of landing or the point at which the flight leaves controlled airspace, as it should, then it is clearly the controller's responsibility to coordinate onward clearance in accordance with that plan.

[Scott Voigt]

in the US if you are VFR and are working with the tower vrs. approach or center (or is that centre <G>). The tower may terminate you and tell you to contact facility B for clearance through. They may or may not call the other facility since the tower is a VFR faciltiy and you are VFR. It is incument on the pilot to get clearance to enter class C. Which in the US only means that you have to get radio communications with the facility unless of course they tell you to remain clear or don't acknowledge your call.

If you are working with an approach control or center, then unless they tell you to remain clear or tell you to contact the tower for class D entry, they are required to make the coordination for you, but I stress, that is only if they are going to keep you and have you transit the airspace without terminating you or telling you to remain clear...

regards

Scott