Oxford Aviation Training (OAT) - Who has got a job?

[father murry]

Can any one shed any light on just how successfull the new Oxford APP students are on getting jobs within 6 months of graduating?

I hear that alot are getting employed. Is it as a direct result of the APP or is it just timing?

Have they dropped the old style intergrated students out of their `Airline recomendation pile` cos i know loads who are still waiting and watching as the new and improved APP guys pass them by on the way to pick up their ID passes!

[lscajp]

Hello,

I would be interested in this too as i'm considering the APP.

Thanks,

Charlie

[Hobo]

Some info at:

www.oxfordaviation.net

Hidden away in "Career" Link then "Job Notice Board" - Most of these were APP I think.

[father murry]

Thanks Dr Pep.

It is quite amazing how much this industry is a complete lottery for new for pilots.

I graduated from Oxford in 2002 and since then they have done `0` for me. My life has effectivly been on hold for over 3 years networking, applying for jobs, reading everything i can about where jobs might be comming up, shelling out to stay current, paying vast sums of money on plane tickets - hotels to attend interviews and sim checks and have had 3 job offers as a result - that all ultimatly fell through in the last stages due to other pilots pitching up last minuite with a hundred or so more hours than me.

It all dawned on me the other day when i was in Oxford and i herd a 22 year old lad who had graduated in early December 2004 commenting to another student that `the last 3 weeks since Oxford reccommended me to BA its been awful, in fact its like ive been on tender hooks, waiting for them to finally get round to offering me the job!`

22 years old, 3 WEEKS, Oxford reccommended me, B.A., !!!

`Live a little - live a lotto!`

[Maude Charlee]

Have no fears. OAT 'old boys' are still in the running and being put forward by the school. Just don't lose touch with your old instructors and become a distant memory because you never know who might mention your name at an opportune time.

;)

[father murry]

thanks friend but try tellin` that to the bank manager

[Air of Despair]

The best way to assess the success of the APP is to visit the individual courses web sites.

http://www.oxfordaviation.net/info/news/websites.htm

A word of warning though, be prepared to feel very sick!

Thomas Cook, BA, Flightline, Excel and Flybe have all approached OAT for graduates in the last four months. It must be said that OAT are still putting forward non-APP graduates for some of these positions, most notably flybe last week. I believe that 60 people were called forward for interview and that about 25 were selected. Those with first time IR passes have gone straight on to the 146 out of Birmingham (no sim check) for a short term contract before moving on to the Q400. Those without a first time pass (probably victims of the ndb at EGBJ) need to pass a sim check before taking up type rating courses on the Q400.

The schools hold the key to low houred recruitment. Many of the airlines no longer have the capacity to sift through the thousands of CV's they receive and would much rather approach the schools for recommendations. If you don't believe me ask the airlines next time you call them! I do know of a couple of guys who have got a job through the good old CV so it is not dead yet as a way of getting that first job, but I have a horrible feeling with CTC and the APP that its day may well be numbered.

Best of luck and keep plugging away, if you want it badly enough you'll get there in the end.

A of D

[BugSpeed]

The thing to remember:

Oxford will not get you a job by itself

You have to do ALOT of work yourself be you a modular or APP graduate.

The long and short of the APP v Modular debate is this (assuming the modular course was entirely at one school): you end up with the same license and the majority of employers couldn't give a stuff so long as you are capable of passing an initial type rating and you are the sort of guy or girl who the interviewer feels they could sit next to for 2 weeks at a time!

You have to be proactive, not reactive in this industry guys and girls; just remember that.

BugSpeed

[randomair]

just to give you an idea!!!

my course recently graduated in december and out of 11 students 7 of us have already got jobs!!

but as someone said its timing!

[Dodgy Dutchman]

Bugspeed,

Sorry mate, but I'm not entirely convinced that a modular trained CPL is considered equally as opposed to an integrated trained pilot. I've heard a lot of bad stories from modular pilots who are desperately trying to get a job...:(

I've been given the advise: If you can get the funding, go to Oxford. If anyone disagrees, please speak up because I'm not yet fully convinced myself:\

[Air of Despair]

DD,

All I will say is that if you can get the whopping amount of cash together then OAT is the place to go. I can hear some Pruners grumbling and getting on their soap boxes so let me clarify before I spark off a furious debate which has been done to death on these forums. Yes the standard of training at OAT is pretty good but no better than you would expect else where, yes it's a lot of money and yes you will leave with the same small pretty blue license as you would get had you been a modular student.

The APP scheme is relatively new and Oxford have basically put all their eggs in one basket and need to make it a roaring success (partly to justify the cost). It is therefore in their interests to get you a job. OAT are still putting forward some of their old graduates but for every AP student they put forward you can bet that there are4-5 APP grads put forward. The APP student has also done a first officer fundamentals course and a JOT course after the MCC. Therefore they appear better qualified than your average integrated student, whether they are is anyones guess. As random air said 7 out of 11 APP graduates on his course have already got jobs in a short space of time so I guess that answers that. From the info I get those numbers are pretty similar on all of the APP courses that have finished so far. Most of us would have given our left pod to get a job within 6 months of finishing.

So, if you can scrape the cash together then go to OAT, not because it is any better than anywhere else but simply because they have to make a success of the APP.

Good luck what ever you decide.

[Dodgy Dutchman]

Thanks AoD!

Now I just need to convince everybody else ;)

I've been to one of their seminars and although the story sounds very reasonable and realistic, I can imagine for that amount of money you would like to shop somewhere else first before you commit yourself :ugh:

Anyway, I've heard that now would be the best time to commit. The airlines are climbing out of the dip again.

DD

[BigAir]

DD,

Having been one of the Lucky APP guys I can vouch that I do think the course was value for money in terms of it delivered what I wanted and more, I got a job soon after graduating and I am not in the minority.

A couple of points to note. Oxford can only do so much for you, they have got people through doors but you still need to go through the airlines process - this is down to the individual and just because you are APP does by no means garauntee you a job. However, to Oxfords credit their selection process (and possibly the cost of integrated training) weeds out a lot of the unsuitables or people not 110% committed, which in turn has meant a consistent product going for selection and getting chosen. I feel sorry for airline recruiters as there really is not a lot to differentiate between us wet behind the ear graduates sometimes.

Second point is you mention Now is the time to commit.... you will only know the answer to that in 18 months time if the market is as is. Personally Spring to Summer 2003 was the time to commit which is what the graduating APP's all did, we got our timing right and there are jobs in the market place now. Wether that will last for another 18 months who knows, but unfortunately a fair amount of fortune telling is needed as to when you should start your training and to base it on the current marketplace needs caution.... especially when you consider in 18 months time you will be in the shadow of the EU age legislation and no one can predict what that will do to the Market.

I highly recommend Oxford if you are looking at Integrated training though! They won't let you down.

BigAir

[winch launch]

I had the chance to start flying at an early age, and at that time I had no clue about all those modular vs APP vs integrated route to a job. So here I am right now, at 19 years old with a French theoretical ATPL almost completed, a PPL and a para dropping pilot “job” for week ends which builds up my hours fairly fast. I am like everyone, I want to make the best choices to find a job once I am done with the training, but as I had already too many hours for an APP/integrated course I am gonna stick with the modular route. I read that some people having first pass IR at oxford don t have to go through some steps at airline selections and that other students get recommendation letters. Can I get all those things if I do a CPL-IR-MCC-JOC at oxford but as a modular student? I mean, talking about those recommendation letters does oxford give them to the best students whatever there course type is (basically looking at your qualities as a pilot) or is it all for the APP because they have done an APP course and are more interesting for OAT financially.

Enlighten me please

Winch

[Ride the Fire]

Getting into the pilot business on low hours is a risky and costly business. I believe it comes down to two very important factors. Number no1 is ability and not far behind is cash flow. If you are SURE on your ability and have the CASH to fund training without a doubt choose Oxford. They sorted me out and I have no complaints. The training is Top quality and as long as you are good the world is your oyster.
big ups oxford - good choice!!:O :O :O

[scroggs]

Much as it pains me to say this, it does appear that more and more airlines are delegating part of their ab-initio pilot recruiting process to the major integrated schools; that is Oxford, FTE Jerez, CTC and Cabair. I think that they are shortsighted and, in fact, plain wrong if they decide only to recruit from these sources, but I can't deny that it's happening.

The ramifications for modular students and schools are not good, I'm afraid, although the very best of both will always get through. I can see a day when, by default, these four schools (or similar new ventures) will have tied up the vast majority of the commercial training market. That means that the days of the sub-£100,000 ATPL are now distinctly numbered.

Scroggs

[Keith.Williams.]

It is true that a growing number of airlines are delegating the initial stages of their selection process to some of the schools. This trend is certainly unfair to those schools which are not selected by the airlines. But at the end of the day the solution lies with the management of the non-favoured schools. They must work harder to establish the necessary links and make themselves known to the airlines.

This trend does not mean that only the integrated students will be put forward. The favoured schools have a vested interest in protecting their positions by putting forward only their best students. A number of EPTA students were put forward as part of the CABAIR nominees and a good many were successful. We do not do integrated courses at EPTA.

It is also worth noting that CTC does not do integrated courses, but this does not prevent them from gaining employement with airlines.


The good news for everyone is that the jobs market has finally started to move. Let's hope it keeps on moving.

[scroggs]

Keith, I sincerely hope you're right - on all counts.

Scroggs

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Scroggs, that really is bad news. I remember when I first started reading prune a couple of years ago, most of the advice offered was to forget Oxford and the like and go modular - less money for the same pieces of paper.

KeithW is correct that CTC currently run a modular scheme, interestingly enough in the context of this thread, it is expected to become integrated in the very near future.

[Re-Heat]

Any comments from Base Trainers on 737/A320 on the ability to cope with the course of integrated vs modular students with low hours, straight from these schools?

Would that have led any such decision on the part of the employers? I imagine that minimising the line training cost would have the largest impact on such a decision as to from where to recruit?

[EGAC_Ramper]

Well I can say I'm still going modular,yes of late Oxford/cabair have been successful in placing students.I'm still confident of using the contacts I have etc and working ghard to achieve what I've always wanted.I still take solice from speaking to a BA 146 pilot who was modular and took 10 years to reach his current position!!


Regards:ok:

[scroggs]

I'm sorry but, as in investment, past performance is no guide to future returns! There was a time, and it's not that long ago, when an enterprising wannabe could make his way to an airline job purely on the basis of hard work and accumulated experience. That time has gone.

It now appears that, for not necessarily good reasons, some airlines (and I think it will soon be more than 'some') wish to farm out selection and training to commercial FTOs so that they, and not the airline, carry the majority of the risk involved. Both the schools and the airlines have a vested interest in getting the highest possible success rate once the student enters line training and therefore will insist on the student being in a continuous training environment from aptitude testing to final graduation. This, after all, is the system that militaries and national airlines (once includng BA) have used very successfully for many years.

The modular route is not closed, and I doubt it will be for many years - as long as there are small airlines that can't afford to contract from the major schools, in fact, but the trend is in favour of the integrated schools. I suspect that, eventually, there will be pressure (from the JAA, probably) to make the integrated route the only one acceptable. I don't particularly like it, but I think it will probably go that way, in a similar fashion to other professional training.

Scroggs

[Tallbloke]

Scroggs,

If you would not mind me picking your brain...

What is your opinion of structured modular courses as a halfway house between the integrated and modular? Do they provide sufficient continuity to reassure airline recruiters, do you think?

BTW, I am not trying to promote any course by mentioning structured modular courses, and, bizarrely I am not put off by your post...in fact on Monday I will be contacting a well known supplier of ground schooling who regularly advertises here and placing an order with them. My current employment and financial status mean that I will be able to study, full time, for the whole duration until my exams are passed. It is a little disheartening to know that even though I may well finish my ground school phase in less time than an integrated student, prospective recruiters will still think of me as a "lesser" candidate. Hey ho whinge over.

As an aside, I wonder what the mathematics of pilot supply and demand are, and whether or not integrated schools can supply sufficient candidates to fulfil airline recruitment needs. With airlines increasingly looking to devolve the cost of training as well as the selection process, will there be an adequate supply of suitable candidates with the necessary £100k required to complete an integrated course?

Does anyone know where accurate figures (or any figures) can be found regarding the number of currently qualified pilots, what proportion of them have flying jobs at present, and how old they are (JAA believe that a great deal of pilots are approaching retirement age, if you believe everything you read on the net)

Any help, tips etc greatly appreciated, keep up the good work.

[scroggs]

I think that structured modular courses are an excellent product, and I also believe that some airlines agree with me. Certainly I've seen evidence of quite a few ex-modular students being employed in the last few months. However, my impression is that the poportion of successful (into airlines) modular graduates is gradually reducing, and I believe this trend will continue. I wish it were not so.

As for whether the integrated providers can output sufficient numbers for the industry, I'm pretty sure they can. They've been running at much less than capacity over the last few years, and they have lots of room for expansion. There's also room for current modular suppliers to become integrated. If the market (the airlines) demands integrated graduates, the schools will provide them - and it won't be cheap.

Scroggs

[Keith.Williams.]

I can certainly see the logic of your concerns Scroggs, but I am not entirely convinced that it means the end for modular courses.
Although it might do at some time in the future.

As I said in my previous post, at EPTA we have been invited to put forward a number of our students in recent weeks and a good many have been successful. All EPTA students are modular and some of those put forward did not even do their groundschool with us. This does not suggest that the airlines are insisting on taking only integrated students.

I think that the potential problem lies in the way the favoured schools choose to use their advantage. There will clearly be an incentive for OATS for example to put forward mainly (or only) their APP students. This is because OATS make more money from their APP students and obviously want to encourage more students to sign up for the APP.

For students taking the modular route, at other schools it is still possible to be put forward by their schools. But it is important that they understand how this system works. The schools select their best candidates primarily on the basis of the attitude and ability displayed during flying training. Their attitude and performance during groundschool is largely irrelevant.

This means that doing the groundschool at one of the non-favoured schools then moving on to fly at a favoured school will not prevent a student from being put forward to an airline (some of the EPTA nominees did exactly that). But doing only the groundschool at the favoured school then flying at a non-favoured one will certainly eliminate a student from even being considered. Some excellent students who did their groundschool at EPTA and then moved on to other schools or other countries to do their flying at lower prices have put themslves in this position. This is quite simply because we will have no idea how they performed during their flying training.

For the future it all depends on how the jobs market developes. If demand outpaces supply (unlikely I know) then even OATS will be obliged to put forward their modular students after their APP pool has been exhausted. If on the other hand the market remains oversupplied, then the schools will be far more restrictive in their selection process.

[scroggs]

Keith, I'm by no means saying that we are about to see the end of modular courses, but I do believe that the trend is against them and that their continued existence in the long term must be at least subject to some doubt. It rather depends on how the airlines - or rather, their recruiting people - decide they want to do things. Those who have a history of accepting, and being happy with, modular graduates will no doubt wish to continue doing so. However, those airlines that are expanding rapidly (and thus are forming an ever-larger share of pilot employment) yet wish to stick to their 'core' business will undoubtedly contract out their ab-initio recruiting to organisations like CTC or Oxford. If that requires an expansion of integrated capacity at the expense of modular capacity, the schools will do it. And new - currently modular - schools will enter the market.

Eventually, I can foresee integrated becoming more and more the norm, and then the pressure will be on, and by, the regulators to make it the only method of obtaining a licence (with the MCL as the cheap option for airlines that run their own training). We're a very long way from that, but I think the trend is noticeable and accelerating.

Scroggs

[winch launch]

It s very hard to accept this.

I have worked very very hard to convince a paradroping center chief pilot to accept me for flying their plane (I am only 19 and no CPL), through instructors recomendation, friends of mine which are also flying C206 or PC-6 to paradrop, and of course the money to get the experience to do that (in france to drop you need 200 PIC and a PPL to drop). I am now hoping to soon find a place on a PC-6 which would get me turboprop hours. I did all this, thinking that it would increase my chances of getting a job, and that those hours would help me to move my CV up the pile. For me it was logic that the more hours you have, the best it is. It seems that I was wrong and really don t see what I can do now. Structured modular sounds good but if you cannot get recomendation letters or help from oxford even though you did a CPL-IR-MCC-JOC then i am sure it doesn t help that much. If anyone did modular at oxford please enlighten us on this.
I hope many wanabees are gonna read this thread. Even though I really enjoyed a lot, all the flying i did so far and think I probably enjoy my route much more than an integrated one, and that i ll never regret the hard work i ve done for all this, it seems that it wont help me a lot for the most important after all.....flying for a nice airline that allows you to live properly.

Any advices are welcome.

Winch

[scroggs]

Winch, we're not there yet! We're talking about the future of modular courses and the pressures that airlines are bringing to bear on the current system. As I said in an earlier post, there are still plenty of modular graduates getting jobs - but the proportion of those graduating to those getting airline employment is, as far as I can see, reducing - and it's the integrated system that's benefitting.


There is still - and I hope there will be for a long time - room for those that do the training in their spare time and build their hours doing the sort of thing you're doing. But I think there will be fewer of you in the future.

Scroggs

[R T Jones]

From the moment I first discovered the integrated and modular ways of training I have always favoured the integrated. The impression I get of it is that it is more focused to taking a person to be ready to become a first officer at an airline. Simply the name of the OAT training the Airline Preparation Programme implies you are going to become an airline pilot, not just gaining a license that allows you to fly for money. Airlines will probably always go to the big integrated schools for low hour cadets.

The way I look at it is before you start training you have two paths to take. If you want to take your time, gain your licenses as you want. Take up some flying instruction on the weekends and make your way slowly to the airlines then modular is for you. Integrated courses are looking at producing a pilot ready for airline flying, bypassing the time you spend instructing or doing other types of flying. So for an extra £20,000 - £30,000 you probably save your self a few years. I really think it’s down to personal choice and of course, circumstances. If there is no way you can go integrated and you want it bad enough you will go modular. There is no which way about it, if you want something enough you will go down a route you didn’t really want to. Just my two cents on a very difficult and complicated argument. Modular Vs Integrated. At the moment it seems Integrated has the upper hand and is not far from a TKO.

[Alex Whittingham]

Its easy to use the wrong words here. What we seem to be talking about is not modular vs integrated but 'selected continuous training' vs 'self organised'. As has already been pointed out arguably the most succesful sponsored scheme, the CTC Wings scheme, is actually modular and many students on integrated courses at other FTOs who didn't buy the 'premium product' seem to been quietly forgotten about when the recommendation for jobs comes around (unless they get a job on their own, of course, in which case they very quickly turn up in the FTO's stats).

BA very explicitly said that they were looking for students from either integrated or structured modular courses with pre-selection and where they could trace a student's training records from inception. As far as I can tell they took 24 pilots, although some of those had already been selected by BA before 9/11.

That doesn't either mean they will be interested in every integrated student or every structured modular student who qualifies in the future, and anyway BA are not a major recruiter. These schemes will stand or fall in the long term by how they are viewed by the airlines but their measure of success in the short term is how many customers they can get to pay over the odds. It is crucial for schools selling 'premium products' to keep restating over and over that 'many' of their students were put forward and 'quite a few' were selected. When the recent BA scheme was announced, for instance, several FTOs were saying things like 'we are confident most of the selected students will come from us'. Have you noticed a certain silence since then? You might expect a really successful school to report something like 'half the cadets were ours' or 'three quarters of the cadets were ours'. You even find FTOs claiming a student as 'theirs' when they only did an MCC course with them. You're looking at marketing smoke and mirrors.

The next issue is the dreadfully cyclical nature of the airline business. It is hardly surprising that, when BA want 24 pilots, they restrict access by asking a few big schools to suggest candidates otherwise they would be inundated by wannabees. It might be a marketing man's dream but these small groups of pilots are hardly the whole industry. Students of self organised modular courses and the less brash integrated schools have also been steadily finding jobs. We even had a relatively recent and re-assuringly middle-aged student joining BA as a direct entrant. He started off his career a couple of years ago with the Astraeus scheme, I bet he never thought he would end up in BA. Old hands will remember that, when the airlines really need pilots, they will take anyone with a license who can find the aircraft without a stick. I've got loads of ex-students flying for BA, they didn't do integrated courses and, at the time, BA were allegedly only recruiting from their own sponsored cadets. Things change real fast around here. One of my friends started flying sheds on the night mail, then moved to City Flyer on a lower salary on ATRs and now, after City Flyer were taken over, he flies 777s with BA. How do you plan that?

[scroggs]

Alex, you're quite right - CTC's scheme is, strictly speaking, a structured modular course. However, the central point remains, which is that airline are beginning to go down the line of delegating their ab-initio recruiting and training to the large schools, and that this trend seems likely to accelerate.

That is, of course, a far cry from saying that all ab-initio recruiting will be done this way at some point in the future, but I do fear that the trend is moving against the interests of the 'self-organised' student. Exceptions can be found to any rule, of course, and for every APP or CTC student who gets a job, right now we can point to several non-integrated 'self-organised' wannabes who have succeeded. Long may it continue, but I'm beginning to think that it might not...

Before anyone gets too worried, we are talking about the medium and long term future, not next week or even next year!

Scroggs

[Alex Whittingham]

Certainly these courses are here to stay. What I'm saying, in a tangled sort of way, is that when there is no recruiting it won't matter squat which sort of course you did, when the airlines are busting for pilots it won't matter either, the only time it's going to make a difference is when there is very limited recruiting. Even then many airlines eschew this sort of plan in favour of the usual 'crisis recruiting'.

[Alex Whittingham]

...and, as if by magic, the latest edition of Flight contains a new advert for FOs at BA. The requirements now are to have more than 400hrs on a multi-crew transport aircraft over 10 tonnes, which pretty much equals a year of commercial flying.

[lscajp]

Basically to anyone who may in the past have put down OAT =

Nows the time to eat your hats!

[TRon]

We dont have to wear them at easy, but I'll find chew a jimmy hat!

[Grass strip basher]

All interesting stuff.... anyone got any idea how Jerez have got on placing graduates with airlines over the past few months?

Are they having as much success as OAT or is there a gap opening up between the two?

[Maude Charlee]

As far as OAT's job successes are concerned, I think you will find (should you wish to put the career development officer on the spot) that the vast majority of those 'successes' are individual successes gained as a result of the efforts of each graduate rather than as a result of any approaches made to the school itself.

There is no breakdown of APP/non APP, or integrated/modular success, merely that each one is an OAT graduate who has chosen to inform the school of their good fortune. I know that some of those people graduated long before the APP was even a twinkle in daddy's eye.

Beware of the spin from marketing. ;)

[Gazeem]

I trained in the bad ol' days after 9/11, no one was getting jobs at all,

the first companies to start recruiting after the drought did'nt care where you trained!

I know, Alex helped me, tonight I am sat abroad (after too many beers) having flown a heavy into a foreign airfield earlier tonight, first job after light aircraft, on my course 3 modular, 3 integrated, 2 ex-balloon corps ( I know this cos they wear pink!)

You pay your money you take your chances, it seems to be a level playing field, however, if I was a betting man and really wanted to pay the money for integrated I would bet with Jerez for an integrated course, they seem very good at placing their students.

[ask26]

Bump - just thought this was an excellent thread that I at least found most useful.

Not for once debating the mod v int argument but more the 'selected continuous training' vs 'self organised' and how airlines might perceive this. Some good points raised

[BOZZATO]

Hello there!

I'm starting at Oxford on their integrated APP scheme in March. I was just hoping that any graduates from their APP/Integrated scheme could possibly comment on their current employment status?

If you have been employed, how long after graduation did this take?

Finally, how many people from their integrated course have been unable to secure employment with an airline?

I know some of these questions may seem a little personal, but i would be ever so grateful if anyone out there could shed some light on this subject

Regards

Bozzato:ok: :ok:

[rons22]

i heard that one or two guys landed jobs in BA

[adwjenk]

Well according to there website 35 grads landed jobs with BA last year!!!

But anyway im starting in July and i would be intrested to hear students who are or arent in employment!!
Also if there where any young grads around the age of 19/20 who have obtained airline jobs!

Thanks in advance also feel free to add you comments about Oxford, but only if you've been on the intergrated course at Oxford!!

ADWJENK

[fly-half]

I was on an integrated course at Oxford and after I finished in September 2003, it took me 16 months before I was fortunate to get my first flying job. I know of FIVE people from our course who are still looking for their first job. Timing is everything. The recruitment which is going on at the moment favours graduates with more recent flying experience, even hiring people before they have even finished the course at Oxford! The cyclic behaviour of the aviation industry means that you may be lucky or unlucky with regards to the jobs market once you are a graduate yourself. In my opinion Oxford are the best but please, don't you dare believe everything they tell you!

[lebroix]

I did the Oxford integrated course. I finished the MCC/JOC in September last year and got an offer yesterday to fly the 737:) , so that's four months. Of the people on my course who I know of (6 including myself) 5 have jobs / are in a holding pool, all for jet positions. The other chap has had a couple of interviews but nothing concrete as yet. There were at least double this number on the course but I don't know how the rest are doing.

As has been said already on the thread, timing is everything and the state of the job market when you finish your MCC is the biggest factor on getting that airline job. Unfortunately, it is very difficult to accurately predict what the state of the job market will be in about 18 months time, when you would be looking. When I started the course (spring 2004) there were no jobs about, and the pprune masses told me quite forcefully that I was insane to waste my money on flight training. There are a relatively large number of jobs about at the moment (though sadly not enough to go around) but you can pretty much assume that the job market will be different when you get there, maybe better, maybe worse. Unfortunately its a case of you make your choices and take your chances.

I couldn't say "Oxford is the place to go" because I obviously did all my training at the one place so cannot compare it to anywhere else. All I can say is that I was happy with what I got and felt that for me, I made the right decision. There were the odd few niggles here and there, but nothing to really get worried about. They delivered on all their promises, there were no hidden costs, everything was completed on time, and they got me my interview. What more can you ask for?

[Dozza2k]

we graduated last may/june. about half of our 20 employed now.

[davepearsall]

It amazes me how you watch these programs on TV and they say that the amount of traffic over Britains skys is going to have doubled by 2020.

I find this hard to believe when people are actually finding it hard to get employed. It seems a bit of a contradiction.

Is it the case that more foreigncompanies are going to be heading to Britain but our airline industry is plodding along with the inflation of any other industry.

Can anyone shed any light on this.

CONFUSED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! .com

[no sponsor]

There's no contradiction. The fact of the matter is that there are too many ATPL(F) qualified individuals chasing after the few jobs that are available. I can only speak for the UK training market, but when I did my training, there were an awful lot of people training with me. My ground school training establishment was running courses for over 50 people per month. My CPL/IR school (one of the smaller ones) was training 6 people per month. This is only the UK. You have the Dutch, Spanish, German and Scandinavian training establishments, all pumping people onto the job market. And, because the UK low cost market is doing so well, those folks are all headed here.

Although it has reduced, HSBC in the UK were handing out loans like they were chocolate biscuits, but it is still enabling people to cut short their route to training. In the past, good old 'working for a few years' to build up some money has been eliminated in favour of get-your-qualifications now, pay-later mentality. OATS, Cabair & Jerez all looked into the abyss post-911, but now they are safe for a few more years.

So if Ryanair are taking 25 new 737-800s this year, this in reality equates to around 150 new pilots. Consider that a fair proportion will be direct entry Captains, then you have at best 100 new FOs? Only an example of one airline, but given the output of the training industry there is a chronic oversupply.

[scroggs]

Yep, spot on NS. There are far too many people being trained by the FTOs for the relatively limited numbers of jobs on offer - many of which, anyway, are aimed at more experienced pilots. Now they are in short supply, partly because people are often quite reluctant to move once they've got their feet under the carpet at a company and now have a place on the seniority list, command on the horizon, and (at last) some kind of financial future!

The fact that people with some experience are difficult to come by means that more airline jobs get opened up to ab-initio pilots, but the numbers will never be sufficient to absorb the output from all the FTOs. Even with all the other users of commercially-qualified pilots brought into the equation, there simply aren't enough jobs for all those who wish to fly for a living - and then there are all the other countries within the EU to consider, none of whose aviation scenes are half as healthy as UK. That's why companies here can still get away with demanding that you pay for type ratings etc.

Sad but true.

Scroggs

[Pilot Pete]

So if Ryanair are taking 25 new 737-800s this year, this in reality equates to around 150 new pilots.

If they need a captain and F/O for each airframe, that would be 50 new seats to fill. Multiply this by the crewing ratio per airframe (I have no idea what ratio Ryanair use, but a ballpark of 6 crews per aircraft would be my guess), that makes 6 x 50 = 300 pilots to crew the 25 aircraft. Now as this is fleet expansion, that means these are ALL new posts, be they for direct entry captains, promoted current F/Os (who will in turn need to be replaced) or new hire F/Os. So I would argue that means around 150 new hire F/Os AT LEAST, possibly (and more likely) more if you promote some internal F/Os to fill the new left seats.

Just my thoughts on the numbers quoted.

PP

[Pilot Pete]

Unfortunately that's the free market economy...

PP

[no sponsor]

OK Pilot Pete, I used 3 crews per aircraft as my guess.

[mad_jock]

Dosn't anyone else find it a bit scary that Dozza2k course has only 50% of them employed after over 6 months?

In what is proberly the best hiring enviroment which has occured since pre 2000.

[scroggs]

What happens in 5-10 years time when most captains have retired / moved on to line training and all the current Senior FO's have achieved their command? Will airlines still be looking for "experienced" FO's to fill in the gaps? Which "experienced" FO's dare I ask? Where are they? Where will they have gained their experience? Are these the same FO's they didn't bother paying any attention to when they were low hours, just out of training, eager and bursting to get started?

I don't really understand your point. There may be people unsuccessful in getting jobs, but the airlines are taking on plenty right now, and these new hires will be the senior FOs and new captains in years to come.

It is precisely for this reason that this industry, in terms of employment prospects is cyclic. Sadly, right now established FTO's (who lets face it are made up of ex airline captains, workers and management anyway) have exploited the market. They are cornering the training market by using their links with their old airlines and taking advantage of this to offer rip-off "integrated" courses. BA and Oxford is just one example. By doing this they are discriminating against the poor from working class backgrounds especially. It's all about greed and certain people should be ashamed of themselves.

The industry is not cyclic because of hiring problems. It is cyclic because it depends on surplus disposable income in the pockets of its customers. When economies are struggling, travel - leisure and business - is one of the first things to go out of the window, and airlines take a big hit.

You appear to be on some kind of 1950's era 'class warfare' kick. The 'workers versus the bosses', a cause usually espoused by those who've never done a day's work in their lives. This is not the place for that kind of politicking - there are plenty of other more appropriate places. But let me give you a word of advice before you travel much further down this road - know your subject. If you don't, you will be torn apart by those who do. On the evidence of this post, you know very little and have assumed an awful lot. Not a good basis for a poilitical campaign. Your heart may be in the right place, but your arguments have to be based on fact, not fiction.

Scroggs

[Re-Heat]

It is precisely for this reason that this industry, in terms of employment prospects is cyclic.
It simply is not cyclic due to any exploitation or poor recruitment policies. It is cyclic due to (a) interest rates and their effect on the borrowings people make in order to fund holidays, or (b) paring back on travelling and associated expense by companies upon whom this business depends - whatever your opinion of big business might be.

They are cornering the training market by using their links with their old airlines and taking advantage of this to offer rip-off "integrated" courses. BA and Oxford is just one example.
Hardly - many have succeeded from non-integrated backgrounds, and the company with whom you sign your contract at OATS does not appear to be making money hand over fist judging from their financial statements, even in a good market for them, and after huge investment from BBA plc, the parent.

By doing this they are discriminating against the poor from working class backgrounds especially.
How exactly? Most people are financing these courses through loans or earning money prior to training. Sure a minority may rely on parent's money, but this is a market economy that does not and should not penalise success, else the spirit of entrepreneurialism that drives the economy and keeps you in a job will die with it. Where would many airlines be today without entrepreneurs? Would you deny a successful businessman's any attempt to give their offspring the best in this world. Yours is a position of envy and a hugely dangerous idea upon which to base your views, if you do indeed want job generation.

There are more than sufficient leg-ups for working class in this country and selection certainly does not prefer establishment characters in this business. An internal BA study when nepotism was once presumed actually proved that offspring of BA staff were less likely to be accepted into flying positions than newcomers. Indeed as urban legend would have it, a child of a friend of Lord King's was rejected, which could not be reversed by him despite his attempts to do so.

If you actually sought out backgrounds of many of today's successful pilots, I think that you will be surprised at how diverse and unprivileged many of them actually are.

BA's policy on integrated is not inflexible - others have and are taken from modular courses including CTC - however it has been long-established to prefer integrated course candidates not for the old boy network, but as being under constant pressure to take the course at a single pressurised pace was deemed to be best representative of real operational life. Although modular courses may be booked back-to-back to recreate that intensity (for example if you were to recreate the CTC course at UK modular schools), it was determined to be far less likely that students not subject to the pressure of an integrated course would be capable of succeeding in minimum hours at the type rating level.

You may disagree with that, however it was based upon BA's experience of modular students at the time. That may well be outdated, but it remains a preference even where non-integrated students are being taken.

The different methods and types of courses just adds to the problems. Integrated is just full-time modular rebadged by clever marketing bods.
They are not however, they are authorised by the CAA to mix the groundschool and flying together for example, to create a greater intensity of training that is achieved by back-to-back modular, and to achieve a consistent level of instruction from hour 1 to IR.

Because of certain greedy b******* I can't but if I could I would make the good old salary-bonded type rating the only way. I'd abolish these immoral 'pay to fly' schemes and up front payment for type ratings and make everybody do the same type of course.
These schemes proliferate as there are so many fools whom take on too much debt and as a result are desperate to achieve that first job. Financial analysis of the implications of training at such a cost take a far third place to unproven delusions of ability and blind (or rather unrealistic, as I would not condemn such a feeling) passion.

Blame blind passion, but not a system that does work for many - many whom do not have mega-$ in the bank.

[Pilot Pete]

OK Pilot Pete, I used 3 crews per aircraft as my guess.
Fair enough, but I would have thought that it would be more than 3, possibly less than my 6 though......anyone?

PP

[haughtney1]

Depends on how hard you work your crews, have heard between 5 - 7 crews per a/c, the 5 crew airline flew about 85 hrs PCM, and the 7 crew around 70 hrs PCM:ok:

[Superpilot]

Well seems like I'm more full of passion than facts right now, but you can hardly blame me in this current climate. Thanks for putting me right on many counts.

[Quincy M.E.]

Bozzato

If you are who I think you are, I was on the same interview at OAT for the TC sponsorship; another Lancashire bod.

Good luck with the course. Failing to raise any money I am still firmly on the ground but in the middle of ATC applicaiton, interview in a few weeks!

[scroggs]

Well seems like I'm more full of passion than facts right now, but you can hardly blame me in this current climate. Thanks for putting me right on many counts.

No problem. Put that much passion into getting a job and you'll have offers all over the place!

Scroggs

[Akuji]

Hi all! just wondering, those who went to Oxford how much help were you given to get a job?

Thanks

[SpiralStability]

I did my modular training at Oxford, and I've had nothing no substantial help in terms of getting a job.

They have however had a lot of input into my CV, but you have to also bear in mind that they have dozens of people seeking their assistance every day, so I think their advice can be somewhat 'uniform'! There is also the programme of speakers they have, and workshops looking at interview technique, aptitude tests etc, and modular guys as well as APP can take advantage of this as long as you did all of you training from ATPL exams onwards there.

If you have above average flying grades and over 85% in groundschool I'm told you'll be considered for recommendation, but only if and when an airline requests some CV's. Of course, there are more people added to this pool every week, so I suspect mines drowning at the bottom by now, and I don't hold out much hope. I haven't heard anything since I left as far as this is concerned!

[Akuji]

How long ago did you leave

[SpiralStability]

Sorry, meant to include that - i left at the end of Sept, and am lucky enough to be in the BACX hold pool - but through the online application, nothing more!

[adwjenk]

SpiralStability

Congrats on the BACX job :ok:
Im starting OAT in July and can't wait, hope your out the pool pritty soon :bored:

ADWJENK

[link4]

Only if i had a pound in a jar everytime i saw this thread, look it up its been in these forums countless times people

[rabino]

I would like to echo exactly spiralstability's post, no help what so ever. All just sales speak from OAT when they will help you with employment.

[adwjenk]

Link 4

Yes this post has been done before, yet the job market is always changing and so is the destination of OAT grads.
Its nice every so while to see where they have gone and more importantly if OAT have helped, which tends to be the main issue!!!

Im starting to get the impression that im better making contacts within an airline then, hope to god OAT do help me. Seems there only intrested in the top few percent of a course.

[link4]

Well considering we'd be all low houred pilots that would want to take the pick of the crop taking into account that do and will always have a variety to choose from.

Its like pick n mix, im sure we'd all go for the best ones!:)

[adwjenk]

It seems slipping on 1 exam or doing 1 section of your IR poorly your not going to get the recommendation from OAT. OAT are intressted mainly in students with 85% groundschool average and First series IR pass.
I don't blame the airline for choosing the best they can so they do. It just seems to be OAT and if you dont meet the above requirments you wont get a recommendation.

In aviation its not what you know, its who you know that matters, and you can see that from reading other post on this forum.
Thats unless you get a recommendation :ok:

But still keep the post coming guys, there intressting to read.
If im wrong or theres additional information to be added id really appreciate it!!

Best of luck to everyone whos job hunting

[finals]

Oxford can only offer so much help - they can get your CV looking good, advise on interview techniques, set up speakers etc... but until an airline comes to them and asks for some pilots what can they do?

A few people seem to think that Oxford guarantee them a job if they train there. I finished the APP a few months back and NOT ONCE did they even try to give an image of a job guarantee. If you're wise enough (and lucky enough to be able to afford it) to get on the APP, then your chances of being recommended by Oxford, and then getting a job are a lot higher.

Most airlines that ask for pilots from places like Oxford have specific requirements on who they want - and the majority of them want Integrated Courses. It is also made very clear by the staff that by going on the APP you will get more assistance and are more likely to get a job through the school recommendations than those who go modular (who will most likely have to get a job through mailing CVs)

Having finished the course, I can say to anyone, Oxford treat you very well, do all they can to get you through, and if you're APP, go all out to get you interviews as well.

[rabino]

Finals

What you have said about the staff saying that if you are on the APP course you have alot more chance of getting help with a job, this just backs up my last post on this subject that it really was just sales speak from the director at OAT when he said at a seminar, that OAT are going to become more Modular friendly....what a load of b*****ks!!!!

[finals]

Rabino,

My point is that help from Oxford can only go so far if an Airline comes in asking for recommended students from Integrated courses. It's all very well Oxford saying they're going be more "modular friendly", but if airlines want integrated students, Oxford will give them integrated students.

I have nothing against people who go the modular route, but nothing will ever change my opinion that it is a much wiser way to realise the dream... if you can afford the cost and time.

Good luck with the jobs :ok:

[speedrestriction]

FINALS, I must query your use of the words "wise" and "wiser". Most sensible people who spend any amount of time considering the two most followed routes to a professional JAA licence will come to the conclusion that the "wiser" route depends entirely on the applicant.

The modular route is less costly, more flexible and can be completed in a shorter time.

The integrated route is more expensive, usually offers better career support and is more attractive to a (small) number of airlines.

A friend of mine (modular at one of the integrated schools) was offered a job BEFORE completing his IR in December (b737 the airline pays for the TR). The integrated students who started groundschool at the same time as him are not yet finished their IRs. I think it is fair to say for that particular applicant the modular was "wiser". I am always amazed at the number of people who become tunnel-visioned once they decide to follow a particular route of training. PEOPLE, BE MORE TOLERANT!!!

speedrestriction

[Elixir]

Why shouldn't Oxford recommend integrated students over modular? There are enough people on here who say that the APP is a waste of money and it's better to go modular, but it's for reasons like this that people pay the extra money to go integrated. It's a trade off - yes you save money going modular but you have to understand that Oxford aren't going to give you the same recommendations that it gives it's integrated students. It all depends on what you consider more important - saving money during training or getting a job quicker!

[finals]

Well said Elixir.

Before you start the training, you should be aware of the advantages and disadvantages of each route.

I know that going modular may be a much better decision for some people. I'm just sick of guys who moan about the APP or the Oxford staff if it doesn't work out afterwards.

You made the decision to go either modular or integrated. Don't blame the school if you start to think it was the wrong decision once the job hunting comes along

[Busbo]

A very fair point. The integrated/modular argument will go on for all time and what a pointless one it is too. The pros and cons of both route are pretty easy to see with only a small amount of research prior to choosing your school and once you've chosen that route you cant start complaining that you want the pros from the other choice!

As for Oxford giving help, I'm currently an unemployed APP grad so am in a fair position to comment. I have been put forward by OAT but not to all airlines that have come forward. Who OAT put forward isn't up to them, the airlines come to them with a criteria and Oxford give them a list of suitable candiates its as simple as that. If they started putting forward people who haven't had much luck and need a chance then the airlines would give up coming to them as they'd just be getting the same huge pile of CVs that they get everyday. Other than the recommendations I think Oxford do help where they can whether that be by CV writing tips or other such tips. While we're on the topic I must say how pleased I am that Nick Mylne is now doing the careers bit, I'm sure everyone who knows him will know what I mean when I say he actually is the nicest man in the world, no joke! Not just that, he's damn good at his job too.

So to wrap up, Oxford can only do so much. I'm not a cream of the crop student, I got a partial pass at my first attempt IR and Oxford cant change that! We all paid alot of money but you cant buy a job (well maybe with excel but lets not even go there!)

[A320rider]

think 3 times before to enroll yourself in a school.

modular training is for the weekends' pilots, who do not care much about aviation except to impress his girlfriend.(or your boyfriend if you are homo)
we call them the flying losers, it is proven that 99% of aircraft accidents come from pilots' errors who have been modular trained and the CAA and the BALPA want get rid of these cheap trainings.
BTW,I still don't know why we call this a "training!"


in the other hand you have the real professionals like me, (and I am modest), the 100% dedicated to become a real professional. All BA pilots come from integrated schools.They are far better pilot that these "ultralights' pilots from modular training".This is why you will get an interview with the best of the airline(BA, KLM, LUFT,...).Some of my friends who have shared same training with me fly now for the Queen. They dont have even the time to write on PPRUNE.

so my question is: Where do you want be in 5 years?
How close of the reality you want be?
Do you want write Oxford on your CV?
Is your girlfriend ready for a threesome?
Are you not tired to ask stupid questions?

[Wannabe24]

Before I thought he was serious, I think he's beginning to break apart now. Ronch, honestly tell us have you found a job yet?

[flybyshark]

Did he just call all Modular students Losers?

Thats funny because 2 of the guys on my Modular course are flying for key ops in this country, one on the airbus!

All down to their hard work and lack of moaning capability.

[Dirty Harry 76]

Said it once and said it before, particularly after your first job, the airlines dont care were you got your licence (well they might be interested for maybe 2 seconds). As your career develops the simulator assesment becomes very important, do you have the right personality and is your CRM good. Ability will prevail no matter how much it cost and where you trained? You cant buy natural talent and the right personality\good CRM. Look at the high number of guys\gals finding their first jobs in the UK from overseas, I expect that the airlines, CTC etc never even heard of the flight schools they trained at (probably cant even pronounce the names properly)? If you want to spend a premium on training for your licence for the chance that you may be pointed in the right direction for a job at the end thats personal choice.

And A320rider, for a complet A****le quite funny. Obviously your theropest needs to strengthen your medication. I take it you didnt get recommended to BA then?

[spinnygirl]

A320 Rider : For a total loser you are very entertaining.

I find it very interesting that you have both FAA and JAA licences yet are classing yourself as an integrated student.

Also your fellow students now fly for the Queen! I'm confused. The Queens flight is heralded at RAF Northolt and is flown by the RAF pilots of the 32 Squadron. I wasn't aware the RAF was that desperate for training they had to resort to French integrated schools.

As for the 99% of accidents coming from modular students pilot error . . . well for starters only approximately 70% are deemed to have pilot error as a significant cause. I suggest you look at the AAIB for further clarification or as previously suggested double your medication.

Your bland, obvious, innaccurate and laughable posts are indicative of why you will only ever get thousands of hours on Microsoft Flight Simulator . . . in fact I wonder if flight sim hours are the only ones you actually have.

[Busbo]

Well said Spinnygirl, very well said. Cutting but true. I think he'll always remain an A320 rider and never an A320 flyer!

[Delta Wun-Wun]

A320Rider show us your yellow tattoo

[mcgoo]

think 3 times before to enroll yourself in a school.
modular training is for the weekends' pilots, who do not care much about aviation except to impress his girlfriend.(or your boyfriend if you are homo)
we call them the flying losers, it is proven that 99% of aircraft accidents come from pilots' errors who have been modular trained and the CAA and the BALPA want get rid of these cheap trainings.
BTW,I still don't know why we call this a "training!"
in the other hand you have the real professionals like me, (and I am modest), the 100% dedicated to become a real professional. All BA pilots come from integrated schools.They are far better pilot that these "ultralights' pilots from modular training".This is why you will get an interview with the best of the airline(BA, KLM, LUFT,...).Some of my friends who have shared same training with me fly now for the Queen. They dont have even the time to write on PPRUNE.
so my question is: Where do you want be in 5 years?
How close of the reality you want be?
Do you want write Oxford on your CV?
Is your girlfriend ready for a threesome?
Are you not tired to ask stupid questions?

you say "we call them the flying losers", who's "we" you and your fellow chumps at the job centre?

[3Greens]

To the Mods...isn't it about time we removed A320rider from this forum? His posts are starting to become irritating, childish and completely irrelevent to what is supposed to be a Proffessional pilots forum?
I for one am tired of his posts distorting, what are often genuine questions.

[boogie-nicey]

The modular guys have to take on real life commitments whilst ALSO learning how to fly. Coupled with the inflexible attitude of many training establishments who don't fly on the weekends so they normally have to book all the annual leave just for study and then beg their employer for unpaid leave (and that's if they have an understanding employer). The integrated students are great but we can't always have the optimum in life and does that mean because I can't afford a Ferrari I must walk to work?

This a320loser guy couldn't even win a moaners competition because he's be turned away at the entrance with the words "sorry mate no professionals" :)

The modular or integrated guy have to meet the same standards laid out by the authorities so if aircraft are crashing due to this aspect then aren't the authorities at fault? Additionally the training schools should then also come under the spot light for having irregular and below par training syllabuses? I don't think so , in fact the schools and authorities are fine because they have devised 2 routes to meet the same aim, that of a qualified pilot with competent skill levels.

Many of the courses in the US are modular and thousands of pilots graduate from that type of training every year so how come aircraft aren't falling out of the sky over there? In fact in a 'sue everyone' culture like in the US you'd think they would be even more cautious than us about having modular courses.

This is not an optimum world and we have to be flexible and innovative at every step and I can assure you that every one of those loser 'modular pilots' realise and understand the true worth of their training and the sacrifices they made they are just as good as anyone else. It's NOT the system, school or training environment that's the most influencial factor in pilot quality it's always been and always will be the PILOT'S INDIVIDUAL MOTIVATION they are the key to all training quality.

[stue]

You gotta give it to 320loser, he amuses me!:p
For how much cr:mad: p people give him, and he comes back for more! My dog is like that:p

Good one mate, we call always rely on you for a good laugh! :}

Seriously though, spinnygirl just about summed it all up. :ok:

[A320rider]

sorry chaps, you are the losers!
and when I say "we", I am talking about the entire community of fighter and eavy jet pilots who come from Oxford.
We have been warned that some of you want ban us.

when I will pass in my jet at FL410, I will look down and think about you(modular training pilot) in your little piper!:cool:

[Delta Wun-Wun]

A320 It is quite obvious that you travel on Airlines where you can request which seat you sit on. Do you always ask for a window seat to allow you to look out. Its better than an isle seat so the grown ups don`t knock you when it`s time to get off.

[mcgoo]

sorry chaps, you are the losers!
and when I say "we", I am talking about the entire community of fighter and eavy jet pilots who come from Oxford.
We have been warned that some of you want ban us.
when I will pass in my jet at FL410, I will look down and think about you(modular training pilot) in your little piper!:cool:


again you say "we". So if you are part of this fighter/heavy jet community why havn't you got a job or is it a big MS flight sim club in the job centre, can't your "entire community" help you meet contacts as you are so professional??

[Timeout]

A320 rider,

and when I say "we", I am talking about the entire community of fighter and eavy jet pilots who come from Oxford.

Just how many fighter pilots have been trained at Oxford? You really do talk a lot of nonsense.

Timeout

[boogie-nicey]

My cousin is a Captain on an Air Canada Airbus and he went modular (training+ personal suffering ). My uncle is a Captain for a US major he also undertook modular. So have these guys missed something or does know nothing A320 is in his own dillusional world.

How many thousands more modular guys are flying for airlines around the world.

The only promotion a320's going to ever get is an add-on pack for MS flight Sim. Hey maybe he could become a consultant to Microsoft

[ChocksAwayUK]

Some of you really need to develop a sense of humour.

[Busbo]

Amen to that, you cant help but think A320 is at home p***ing himself laughing at all this and so he should be!

[SBAB]

Hi Everyone,

Just out of curiousity. i finished as an Integrated Student at OAT in June 2005. Age 29. After tons of letters No response not a single interview. As soon as I left OAT, not a word from them either. Quite a few classmates were lucky and got an interview. But after a lot of promisses during training, still -0-. I have passed IR first time and have an 86% groundschool score alle 1st time passes.

Who else is in the same ****e after all these months. I read a lot of good things about OAT. But to be honest they have helped me with nothing. I am not a complainer to them, never have been while in training there. But they act like you have never been to there school. You would think they would help a little, you pay for it too as Integrated, my training was extended at my own costs because the Seneca's were mostly grounded for a long period we flew about once every 4 weeks. This costed me another 3 months extra on rent, food etc. You think a little help after that but zero, no compensation, no nothing. Should have done Modular!!!!!

WHO ELSE IS OUT THERE WITH THE SAME THING, I know a few guys from AP 237 who have the same experience. Would be interesting to know. Not here to wine just to warn others that it is not all as great as they want you to believe.

The forgotten OAT Student

[Superpilot]

I take it you were the last of the non APP Integrated Students? If so, what exactly are you expecting of them seeing that they didn't promise any employment support, or did they?

Met someone the other day who was also one of the last non APP students, guy spent just over £70k, and no hope of a job, then went on to do a FI rating, another £6k, got a job as an FI earning peanuts and was now contemplating a TR! :ugh:. ETA for paying of his loans? Around March 2016!

[SBAB]

Nope, fully APP. again not here to wine just want to know if there are others like me and what there options are. I am all out of options and money. So no self funded Type rating, another big gamble.

[Sagey]

SBAB why don't you contact Oxford directly and discuss your concerns. From your posting it would appear that communications have broken down.
Oxford frequently talk about their career advice person/people, so much so that they utilise it in their marketing material. I have no connections with Oxford, so I do not know what conditions/guarantees are outlined in your APP contract. An element of pro-activity is now required to try and find a mutually suitable solution to your frustrations. Now, if Oxford just tell you to go away and not to bother them again, then you might have to re-think.

Sagey

[Felix Saddler]

I was thinking of doing an integrated course through OAT but after hearing your story im not too sure if its a good idea.

[captwannabe]

Felix Saddler,

That can happen to anyone. Not everyone from integrated courses gets interviews/recommendations from their FTO. They often have to search for jobs themselves. The employment statistics on the FTO's websites also includes those who sorted jobs for themselves. And where you trained makes no difference when you're on your own looking for jobs.

[LeeH88]

Try posting on OAT's forums, obviously keep it polite, etc. as it is their forum and you dont want to upset them, but you usually get people from OAT on there, they may be able to help.

[potkettleblack]

Some shall we call them, less than trustworthy, FTO's also include guys on conversions in their success stories. Generally these are guys with thousands of hours of TP/jet time, many with command experience and some who have a job lined up subject to passing the ATPL ground school & CPL/IR conversion. Not sure if this is applicable at all to OAT (probably not) but you really have to be careful if you ask "how many of your students get jobs within x period of time".

[mcgoo]

Try posting on OAT's forums, obviously keep it polite, etc. as it is their forum and you dont want to upset them, but you usually get people from OAT on there, they may be able to help.

amazing the guys spent pots of money, has no job and you are telling him not to upset them!, i would be very upset if i had spent that kind of money and was getting no support with jobs from OAT as that is the whole reason most people spend the extra money and what OAT pride themselves on in their marketing

[Sagey]

SBAB - on this post http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2485476#post2485476 you mentioned that you had one interview. Out of interest was that set up by Oxford or did you get the interview through your own iniative. I personally think it is time that you picked up the phone to Oxford and said "remember me - I am still looking for a job, can I please come in for a chat"

Sagey

[Skintman]

SBAB. Sorry to hear that you are still looking. Most OAT graduates have got jobs quite quickly in 2006. They were recommended for interviews by OAT with either the airline direct or via GECAT. The airlines like the recommendation route and use it a lot. This is the route most OAT guys get their first placement.

Go back and talk to OAT again, you may have just fallen off their radar.

If they don't help you, then let this forum know with both barrels.

Best wishes

Skintman

[PPRuNeUser0165]

I am currently looking at training at oat, have my skills assesment booked in august. after reading the posts i'm really not sure with what to do!!! if i do not pass my skills assesment was going to uni but know wondering whether i should even bother with the skills assesment.
would it be worth getting a degree and a ppl and then taking a modula route. every part of news i hear about the intergrated seems to be bad!!
And has any one heard about this new scheme that is a multi engined/pilot course?? apparently you get a job offer first, then start your training??
Please help!!
One very confused scared wannabe pilot!

by the way sbab, i thought that oat had a security scheme where no job in 6 months and they give u a couple of hours free in a sim, then no job in 12 months and they pay for you to do your IR again?

[SBAB]

SBAB - on this post http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2485476#post2485476 you mentioned that you had one interview. Out of interest was that set up by Oxford or did you get the interview through your own iniative. I personally think it is time that you picked up the phone to Oxford and said "remember me - I am still looking for a job, can I please come in for a chat"

Sagey

Hi, that was an interview I arranged myself unfortunately the language was a bit of a problem, it was in Denmark. Believe me I tried that many times. Phoned them, emailed them.

It is pretty depressing when you hear guys finishing 6 months after all being put forward to an Airline whit pretty much simular marks. I have been on the phone weekly, with them. I know for a fact that there are more out there like me. That is why I posted it to see how many, or do I just happen to have bad luck or something else.

@Leeh88, @potkettleblack; I tried that but I am fed up with them telling me, don;t worry it will be oke, the market is really picking up. Been hearing those tailes for over 14 months.

@Skintman, that is indeed a good tip and I have done that, week by week, believe me they know me.

Thanks for all your advice and highlights. It is also not my intention to scare those still looking. Just to make you aware it is not all sunshine as they make you believe. I fell for it while I was there, and did the test en spent all the money.

@tommyg737, you are right, that is another scam. I did the older APP course (starting 2 years ago one of the first full integrated). That one costed around 5000 pounds more, but we still need to pay for our own renewals etc. I have tried and know of one other student who has also tried. Thanks for paying us more, thanks for spending 3 extra months in Langford no you must pay the full amount for your IR renewal. :D

But that will not be the problem with the new APP. For me the dream turned sour. I hope to fiks it and I will. But boy what a mistake to do integrated there, where as modulair I would have had the money left to spend at GECAT or CTC and make a bigger chance at the Airlines. But that is always easier said, at that time I made the best decission, and can only blame myself. But who reads this is warned and should think twice.

[LeeH88]

amazing the guys spent pots of money, has no job and you are telling him not to upset them!, i would be very upset if i had spent that kind of money and was getting no support with jobs from OAT as that is the whole reason most people spend the extra money and what OAT pride themselves on in their marketing

Indeed sir, but if he goes on their being raucous and getting a tad over zealous (which Im sure he wont because hes mature), they might not think hes worth the time helping or whatever, it generally puts out a bad image of himself, am i right?

[jumbo-clingfilm]

Moral of the story = don't go to Oxford who promise the earth and deliver very little except £70k debt.


It's a bl**dy disgrace!!!!

[mcgoo]

Indeed sir, but if he goes on their being raucous and getting a tad over zealous (which Im sure he wont because hes mature), they might not think hes worth the time helping or whatever, it generally puts out a bad image of himself, am i right?

your kidding, right?

[LeeH88]

No not at all, Im firmly on his side with this one, hes paid vast amounts of money and obviously wants what they promised, but being boisterous and immature - on a forum nonetheless - is no way to resolve it in my opinion.

[PPRuNeUser0165]

well i think by going to oxford i could be making the biggest mistake of my life! i really did not know that its that bad!! when i went for a look around i too got sucked in by them and went away extremely impressed and egar to get into 70K worth of debt!
I would still like sum advise off n e 1 willing about whether i should get a degree first or take the modular route straight away!
SBAB i am truly sorry to hear about the experience and honestly do hope that you get a job soon.
Did hear that first choice are despretly looking for new pilots, they were saying that all types of hours considerd. could be worth a phone call, was only posted the other day but can't remember where i saw it!

[mcgoo]

No not at all, Im firmly on his side with this one, hes paid vast amounts of money and obviously wants what they promised, but being boisterous and immature - on a forum nonetheless - is no way to resolve it in my opinion.

who said anything about being boisterous and immature, i'm talking about raising valid concerns, that i would have shelled out 80k plus and OAT are not sticking to their side of the bargain, More than one OAT student has said on this forum that OAT frown upon people complaining and people feel that OAT withold opportunities from those who do complain, I personally would not be happy with that treatment from that amount of personal investment

[wiseman942]

I am currently doing research into which FTO is best for me, i have been looking at various schools for the past 6 months, and found that after speaking to many CPs:ok: that the best route to go is integrated with a TR. I have heard a lot of bad press about OAT, and have now decided that Stapleford is the place to go. You can complete the integrated course and TR for roughly the same amount as just the integrated course at OAT. I have also been recommended this school by many pilots flying for the flagship airline. Anyone thinking of doing this course might want to look at this school!!!!!!

[Lucifer]

Wiseman942 - you appear to offer advice yet have not been there yourself...

erm - of course Stapleford is not integrated (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG_FCL_APPROVEDFTOS.PDF), and the flagship airline to which you refer is of course neither the flag carrier, nor one of long establishment.

I would still like sum advise off n e 1 willing about whether i should get a degree first or take the modular route straight away
tommyg737 ditto - you've not been there so don't offer blind advice. One integrated provider is not another.

And has any one heard about this new scheme that is a multi engined/pilot course?? apparently you get a job offer first, then start your training
MPL - read about it - it is not yet finalised. Wise up a bit before you take the plunge - you are only 18 and there is much about the industry that you should be aware about before embarking on training.

SBAB - is it a failure of a contractual relationship - is there a contract that states that they have to help you?

If so - issue a small claims court proceedings order through a solicitor - it neither costs much nor would any company prefer to go to court. That might get their attention and get something done.

On the other hand - have you written a CV and submitted it to them to pass on? Have you asked them what you can do to improve your chances? You do appear to complain, yet if they have not heard from you at all, one might assume (on their part) that you have a job already...?

Have you enquired how many places they have approached with your CV and ask them how you can improve it - ask what successful candidates have that you do not etc?

[scroggs]

Stapleford do not do an integrated course. The only integrated trainers in UK are Oxford and Cabair, plus FTE Jerez in Spain.

Scroggs

[LeeH88]

Hmm, yes but originally I said that if he goes on there being "raucous and over zealous" and you said "you're kidding right?", so now what are you talking about?! Im also on about raising valid concerns, just in the appropriate manner.

Lucifer I was just about to suggest that, about contract, etc. Might be a good choice.

[PPRuNeUser0165]

cheers lucifer, decided to do my degree first, as you say i am only young and need to know the ndustry better. hopefully after finishing uni and finishing my ppl i will be better informed and can go ahead and make a better decision!

[WindSheer]

I sometimes question the intelligence of posters on this forum.....this topic just confirms my doubts!!
Guys there is only one way to get to that right hand seat, determination, and yeah......more determination. And that goes further than just the training.
I visited Oxford this year, and yes I was impressed. HOWEVER, I maintained an open mind and tried to see through their sales techniques. The marketing staff are proffesionals, and are paid to 'draw people in'!
Yes you are paying them a lot of money for their high standards of training, and for the oxford stamp on your CV...what you are not paying them for is an apprenticeship with the promise of a job as the outcome. They will ASSIST you afterwards if required.

95% of the decision within an airline interview is down to personality, its a credential you simply MUST have!
Instead of whining on a forum such as this, get yourself a job at an airport, get out of bed at 2 am and use your personality to meet pilots and airline employees to find that opening. Sending photocopied letters is not going to give you that break!

Come on guys........:confused:

[LeeH88]

Windsheer, I agree with what you are saying, but if im not mistaken Oxford include a few 'after training' things with the APPFO program and for me, thats the matter at hand, noone can expect an FTO to get them a job, but they gotta give him what they promised, is what im saying.

[WindSheer]

Couldn't agree more!
They offer 737 sim time after 6 months and an IR renewal after a year.

Surely they can't give you much else.....

[Mercenary Pilot]

Would that be a 'real' 737 simulator (i.e. a Level-D)? Also does the IR renewal include the MEP renewal? If not, then is the IR renewal done in an FNPTII?

[LeeH88]

Oxford have a FNPTII, Spose you're right Windsheer. Cant actually remember exactly what they promise, I suppose the 'Job or No Job' is a risk of training to be a pilot.

[mcgoo]

Cant actually remember exactly what they promise, I suppose the 'Job or No Job' is a risk of training to be a pilot.

genius, i can't remember what they promise but its good enough for me to spend £60 k over the odds especially since the job or no job is a training risk?????, why the f**k go to oxford then, OAT love 18 year old boys caught in the headlights, go for it!

[wiseman942]

Lucifer i understand what you are saying but surely i can offer advice to people who are in the same position as i am, all i was saying is that after personal research i have found this to be the best school with value for money and after course help. A school that can offer zero hours to fATPL and a TR for roughly the same price as OAT etc is worth looking at.

[LeeH88]

mcgoo, Id love to know why all of a sudden you're getting personal, and I dont see any need for the language, at that moment I couldnt remember exactly what they promised in regard to after you've finished training, apart from the Refresher course. Also, the comment about the job was separate from the other and its the same with any FTO, not just Oxford, grow up. When I want your opinion, I'll ask for it, lay off.

[Fancy Navigator]

... All they are interested in is your money, has nobody understood that?
O.. are not a charity that train pilots for the sake of it, they are there to make money on your back, they are a business.
One way for them to make their business is to advertise a £60 k course (which ends up at £100k) and claim that you will get a job at the end of it thanks to them (and their contacts, reputation, etc...). How would they be able to "SELL" a £100k course if there was not the possibility of a job at the end? Nobody would fork out that amount of money otherwise!
Take a look at the story in Pilot ! What a great advert for them! (see another thread)....

Most of the time, their graduates will get a job with 200 hours (what makes them better than any other CPL/IR dude is another question altogether....!!!). These freshly qualified pilots will show the rest of the world how good the O.. course is and how quickly they got a job thanks to O..!
However, O.. do not always "deliver", and those who are left by the side of the road, have to deal with a huge debt and no job to pay the money back.
For these guys and girls, O.. have failed!
I do, and at the same time, I do not feel sorry for them. I understand they have a huge debt, but, in the first instance, what makes them think that training at O.. makes them better than the rest of the world? The licence, as far as I know, is exactly the same one! They paid more money with the hope to get a job, they don't get it? Tough! The world out there is tough!
FNav := :D ;)

[WindSheer]

A school that can offer zero hours to fATPL and a TR for roughly the same price as OAT etc is worth looking at.

Umm, OAT dont give you a 737 TR. They give you a full MCC completed in a 737 sim. Remember a type rating is not a type rating without completing a final checkout on the real a/c.

Also, Cabair do it £8000 cheaper......:ok:

[sicky]

I think he meant he could do zero to fatpl and get a 737 TR for the same price as OAT charge for zero to fatpl :\

[mcgoo]

mcgoo, Id love to know why all of a sudden you're getting personal, and I dont see any need for the language, at that moment I couldnt remember exactly what they promised in regard to after you've finished training, apart from the Refresher course. Also, the comment about the job was separate from the other and its the same with any FTO, not just Oxford, grow up. When I want your opinion, I'll ask for it, lay off.

chill out, it wasn't meant as personal, if taken that way I apologise, but the last comment is weird, this is a public forum and i've got every right to post my opinions whether you request them or not.

[New FO]

Guys you really must ensure you don't base your final decision with these schools based on this forum! There is some valuble information here. There are also many who like giving "advice" with no experience at all. Oxford push you extremely hard to pass everything first time to the extent that its not acceptable not to. This looks good on the CV, as does the Oxford name, no-one can disagree with that otherwise debates like this wouldn't exist!

I went through Oxford and got a job very quickly. However, I was very lucky. I have friends in a much worse off situation than me. Saying that, no-one on my course was left out completely.

The guys that are struggling with them. Ring the careers guys and keep on and on at them, don't be rude but ensure you are considered at the next recommendations board. They're perfectly understanding, however, when you start Oxford, there are no promises made and certainly no garunteed jobs.

No flying school has a 100% hit record, in searching for one, you have to consider where you are maximising your chances of landing that job. It's really important to have somewhere to go and earn a lot of mone in the case that thewre is a downturn in recruitment within our volatile industry.

Best of luck to all...happy thorough research!

[captwannabe]

"This looks good on the CV, as does the Oxford name"
First time passes do look good on your CV. The Oxford name has neither positive or negative effect on your CV. It's not a case of 'our name + your CV = job done'. That's marketing :mad: at its finest. Apparently, Flybe don't even look at OAT low-hour graduates if they don't have a recommendation. The recommendation helps for sure.

"Oxford push you extremely hard to pass everything to the extent that it's unacceptable not to"
How is this different from any other FTO?

The reason this is debated so much is that people who spend less money, even if they do another integrated course or modular it doesn't matter (they're all cheaper than OAT), get the same jobs as those who pay £80k and maybe a £20k TR on top.

"No flying school has a 100% hit record"
CTC have the best graduate placement from any FTO, and they would be up around the 100% mark with their Wings Cadets.

"You have to consider where you are maximising your chances of landing that job"
If you do another integrated course you have the exact same chance of landing a job, modular perhaps has slightly less.

"It's really important to have somewhere to go and earn a lot of money in case that there is a downturn in recruitment"
Not sure what exactly your point is?

[PAPI-74]

I spent 12 yeras looking at FTO's. I started in 1993 when the market was really bad. I have seen them come and go, usually with peoples money who paid upfront.
Never do this...Cabair / Grabair are known for this (p###ing people off and not refunding money). You are the customer!
I too went on an Oxford Modular Seminar. What a pile of c##p. I managed to get a free landing fee after speaking to 3 people. This was their first test. The room was full with people from all walks of life, especially young lads speaking loudly as if they were TRE's. Generally the ones who speak the loudest, know the least. I just walked through the room eating the sarnies (nice for a free lunch...smoked salmon) and listeninig to peoples comments. That was enough for me. The sales pitch was excessive and who wants to sit in a PA28, with no air con in the desert. No thanks.
Cabair told me that they would recommend me (mod) alongside the int. guys. That's fair, and complete tosh.
Avoid all the bull and pop into PAT Bournemouth. Linda, Anthony and the Fat Controller will put you on the right path for the IR/CPL, with no hidden extras. The instructors are all career guys most ex. SFT (the best at years ago). pat.uk.c#m
Bournemouth is great for exams too. You can normally get them within a few days. Compare that to 2 weeks at Cranfield, where the controller thinks the pilots are landing in his back garden. That guy needs a CRM course before an accident happens.

Do the ppl somewhere fun in the UK and enjoy the hour building. Go where you want to go, especially into France.
At the end of the day there are over 40 FTO to choose from. Visit the ones who are good on the phone and indeed answer the phone at all, send prompt info and give you one to one time. You will get a feeling when you walk in, but visit twice to be sure. Look at the SIM as well.
FNPT II is the way forward. Doing it all on the aircraft is a cop out for them. It is too hard for you to master the hold without the benefit of nil wind, calm conditions, etc..to begin with, never mind your first route. If the foundations are poor, you will go well over your time. That's another thing; allow an extra few thousand for an emergency.

[New FO]

Capt wanabee...are you an experienced cadet capable of offering advice in the field through which you have been?

Or are you a wanabe calling upon the likes of me to kindly share our experience with you?

I suspect niether.

However,

OAT has a gd track record, yes their name is a good thing, it got me a job.

They push you bloody hard...i didn't say other FTO's didnt...perhaps they do...perhaps they don't. i didnt bother doing more than one integrated course!

Have a backup job. Before I took the loan I ensured my plan had redundancy and I had access to a lucrative career if everything didn't go as planned. DON'T GAMBLE WITH NO BACKUP!

Mate...don't wind these wannabes up and scare the hell out of them. This is a risky game, one in which the most informed decision possible is necessary.

Those that have their head screwed on enough to invest up to 100 grand dont have time to read silly remarks that won't help them.

I plead that if you can be of use, have experience or require help with your decision. Consult us that have been through and can help from experience or help others with yours. If you are bitter for one reason or another, go elsewhere.

[captwannabe]

New FO,

I'm not trying to put anybody off. I think if you really want to become a pilot go for it. BUT, research all the possible options available. That's the whole point of my last post! My remarks are far from "silly". I'm pointing out the fact that other FTOs can match Oxford. If reading that there are other places to train that are just as good doesn't help people to make the "most informed decision possible", what does? Do you want everyone to read only about OAT? There was no bitterness in that post, I was merely pointing out alternatives. You didn't make the point clear in an earlier post to have a Plan B, and I completely agree you should have a Plan B, especially considering the risk involved.

Did you even read my post properly? I didn't once say not to go to Oxford. I pointed out that there are other options out there, that cost slightly less, with the same opportunities at the end. If someone feels that Oxford is the right place for them out of all the possible options, go to Oxford.

[Grass strip basher]

Has anyone considered that no-one really has experience of what getting £70-100k into debt to fund flight training at such a young age can actually have on your life?? (even those with respect who have gone through OAT in the past couple of years, have the debt today and are gainfully employeed in a shiny jet etc).

With the airline sponsored schemes only disappearing 5 years ago post Sept 11th am I right in assuming that prior to this no-one was getting themselves into this sort of debt to pursue training?? I don't know the answer to this its just a thought.

Just thinking that if you are say 20 years old... it will take you c10 years to pay back the £70-100k of debt. Post clearing the loan at the age of 30 you will then have a clean slate to start worrying about getting a mortgage... oh and start contributing more to your pension (work based DC schemes pay a pittance)... oh did I get married and now have to worry about school fees?? I wonder if the money spent will look like such great value for money then when compared to what your peers are up to?

These are the sort of things that would put me off.... its not just being able to make the repayments and walking into a job straight out of flight school, its all the things you can't afford for years and years that your peers who don't have such a burden will be enjoying. As such I worry that even those that have paid the huge price of integrated training today will not know the full cost to them for years to come. It certainly delays your ability to get onto the housing ladder which is tough enough already these days.

Its seems to me that the discussion on this forum is much more concerned with the "will the debt get me a job straight away" rather than the how will I look in 10 years once I have repaid the debt relative to my peers??.... maybe too much focus on the "value for money" during the 1-2 years spent training rather than will I think it was "value for money" in 10 years time.

I don't think I have seen one person post on this forum who went to Oxford more that 5 years ago that thinks £70-100k of debt isn't a huge price to pay for the little blue book. Although I think the majority would say Oxford is a good school). Certainly all of my mates who have been flying for 5-10 years describe it as a bonkers amount of cash to pay....

I've nothing against OAT, its an excellent organisation from what I have seen but £100k of debt at such a young age is a burden for a very very long time... looking back as a fresh faced lad I was stright out of school I certainly wouldn't have had a clue as to the financial restrictions that amount of debt would have placed on me for years and years post training so I'd be amazed if the majority of young wanabees are fully aware

(Apologies for being a bit off topic)

[Skintman]

Grass Strip Basher

Everyone agrees that the level of financial committment to become a trained pilot after 9/11 are huge, but this is the reality of the current economic climate. The wages for newly qualified commercial jet pilots are nearly double those of new general graduates. So it's not all doom and gloom on the financial front.

Also even if a fresh 20 year old does not understand the implications of a large loan, the banks won't give one to him anyway. It will need to be secured by some equity, either on a house or other items of value. So those doing the signing will sure look into it in detail. Usually generous parents.:hmm:

[Fancy Navigator]

Has anyone considered that no-one really has experience of what getting £70-100k into debt to fund flight training at such a young age can actually have on your life??....

Excellent post!

[Frank Furillo]

Having generous parents is very nice, but having say £100 knocking around is another thing, I sold my house and downsized to pay for my training.
If my children wanted to fly I would no doubt help them anyway I could, however I would be very careful about putting my house on the line to pay for any training, remember most people who use their house as security for £100 or more must have lots of equity in their house or paid off their mortgage.
I do believe that you posted similar remarks a few months ago on pprune.
FF

[Lucifer]

wages for newly qualified commercial jet pilots are nearly double those of new general graduates.
Dream on mate, dream on!

If you were to compare rates with a graduate job (i.e. on a grad programme rather than just any job a grad can get that is not specifically for a grad), graduate jobs start on average somewhere near £22k.

If you are to include all EU operators who recruit fresh fATPLs, I reckon they would be comparable to graduate salaries, certainly not double (i.e. £44k).

[Fancy Navigator]

Dream on mate, dream on!
, I reckon they would be comparable to graduate salaries, certainly not double (i.e. £44k).

Exactly.... FO's on on T/P never make £44k!:ugh:
I am just out of the bank this afternoon, you will be pleased to know that pilots are not seen very well in terms of income security, loans, etc....in comparison with doctors, finance people, lawyers, teachers, etc... It is maybe just the point of view of my bank, but I strongly suspect this is what most banks think...
Gives one food for thought....:ugh: :ouch:

[PAPI-74]

Correct. Why do you also think HSBC have stopped their loans to pilots. You now need it secured and they have renamed it "Professional Studies Loan."

The only way for the HSBC loan, is through OAT (I am told), unless you have a home to risk.

[Dotty Daisy]

I would advise anyone, don't waste your money. Reasons:

1) I left last Autumn out of the 12 who started 5 have got jobs. (90% yea right)

2) I think in the current market there is no point paying over the odds £65 grand to do the training. As even when you have completed the training most companies are expecting you to pay for the type rating anyway so you may as well do it for £40 grand and spend the extra £20 grand on a type rating with a good company e.g. PARC who have a 100% job success rate.

JUST A THOUGHT

I would also like to mention that I thought OAT was completely disorganized throughout so it came as no surprise to me that as soon as I had finished my course I heard nothing not even a hint of an interview and that goes for the other seven on my course without jobs. Some of whom have now had to completely give up on their dream. If OAT is the best in the country I would not like to see the worst!!!

P.S some of you might think this is sour grapes and yes it is, lots of money, lots of work, a 100% pass mark through out and still no job!!!

[PAPI-74]

Fact: There is a shortage of pilots, but only at the experienced end. It is partly a smoke screen by the Aviaton media to make money. If Pilot, Flyer, AC Int etc all jump on the band wagon and keep reporting of a huge pilot shortage, the FTO's advertising and spending thousands are really happy, the bod buying the mag is happy cos the dream is alive, and the airlines are happy, as they can have us all fight over a limited number of jobs for low hours crews. This means threads like " which TRTO shall I go to...like the one I have just chatted on."
They are not allowed to recruit past a certain percentage, so the whole scam is bo##ox. Yes they all need hundreds of pilots, but where are the TRCapt's to fly with them?
Further why is it since JAA has arrived, hundreds of European pilots have emerged in the UK being paid in Euro's (bargain for the Airlines), which doesn't really bother me; what does is that you try to get a job in Spain, France, Germany etc... not a hope, unless you fancy the far reaches of the sunny ex block countries and part of the requirement is that you speak their language.
Ever tried to hold a conversation with some of the new FO's in this country?
I think it stinks!
God that feels better. Still don't have a job though.:ok:

[New FO]

On the loan front there, even through OAT, you need to secure it. So still need to risk your home! The way to do it is a thorough business plan, not just to fool the bank. Make sure its genuine. You really need to know in your own mind that you can pay this money back in the case of a severe downturn of recruitment in the industry. All be it the world is short of pilots as we keep seeing in the likes of Flight Int and Flt Training News, it only takes a one off tragedy or terrorist threat for the industry to plummet once more. This is risky so make sure you can dig yourself out of a hole if needed.

On the jet salary front...new jet FO's do earn 44k! Obviously thats the higher end andas a result of self sponsoring a type rating. Then in 4/5 years in a quick promoting company like easyjet, you're looking at 90K (more with the 10% pay rise looming). THe whole scheme from groundschool to paying of the loan is more than financially viable. But it seems to be a lottery as to wether you're lucky enough to get the job, and then, if its a high paying one!

Good luck to all who go for it...but think carefully!

[Mercenary Pilot]

If Pilot, Flyer, AC Int etc all jump on the band wagon and keep reporting of a huge pilot shortage, the FTO's advertising and spending thousands are really happy,

Im glad im not the only one to have noticed the ****e being pushed out by those mags (and the reason I never read Pilot anymore), they started pedalling that rubbish about 2 years ago.

As for F/O pay for new pilots straight from flight school....I have a number of friends who have gone straight into the Lo-Cos (all on the 737) through the various schemes and most have (or will have) taken home less than 6k in thier first 6 months of line flying. (BTW they were all modular and got jobs off their own backs)

[New FO]

Only 6k!!

I'm guessing they went to Ryanair!? But they knew that before starting. Ryanair pay crap at the beginning, thats the way it works. I dont know any other lo costs that act in suck a way. There are those that charge for line training, thats naff. How can anyone justify charging a pilot for the privalige to carry cout a commercial service?! However, none of this is a sudden supprise before you join the airline! Who takes a job without knowing what they're going ot be paid!

Believe me, this is not true of all low cost carriers!

The current easy FO salary is 35k (90%in first 6 months) + sector pay works out about 55-60 a day of which some is not taxed).

Only part of the negotiated 10% pay rise has been added, the resto to come in october and next year (i think).

I hate to come on here and blow the trumpet of those of us that are of course extrememly lucky and very much were in the right place at the right time. However, did pay for a type rating (which ive beentold time and time gain is silly...personally i think it was a bloody great decision!) But come on guys...why are these forums always SOOOOOOOOOO negative! Some are lucky some are unlucky, this is a big risk...but come on...why all of this scaremongering!?

[moo]

just my tuppence

I have.

graduated from oat in april this year on course 244, now working for BA along with 6 of my colleagues. when I left (almost) everyone from courses, 238,239,240,241,242,243 and 244 had been employed, approximately 15 people on each course. don't know what happened after that cos I wasn't there, but it was certainly good when I left! it's definately about being in the right place at the right time i'm afraid. I think everyone of those graduates in one way or another (reduced salary/capital upfront) paid their own type ratings, even in BA we are getting a big reduction in salary for the first 5 years, equating to around 40K in lost earnings, but that is now the way of the world and there aint all that much you can do about it as a low hours pilot.

not saying oat is perfect or for everyone, it's not.

same goes for jerez, I spent 5 weeks out there on a BA joc and didn't think it was that great to be honest.

haven't been to cabair for more than half a day so can't comment.

I think I got good value for money out of oat and I know it's easy for me to say having been employed virtually instantly, but even without the new job straight away, I think the quality of training and facilities far exceeded most, if not all of their competitors.

I am not a shiny 18 year old with rich parents either, 27 with 7 years as a licensed avionic engineer with the same company I'm with now.

my advice to anyone is to have something to fall back on so if things aren't great when you graduate, you are able to earn a decent wage whilst looking for work. a few people I know have unfortunately found themselves in the summer lull and have resorted to low paid, unskilled labour to make ends meet and they are finding things very difficult indeed.

spending lots of money on any flight training course is a big risk certainly, but it's one you are gonna have to take unfortunately! reduce the risk by ensuring you have a good back up plan, hopefully you won't need it but you never know!

moo

[Mercenary Pilot]

I'm guessing they went to Ryanair!? But they knew that before starting. Ryanair pay crap at the beginning, thats the way it works.

Nope they didnt all go to Ryanair.

I dont know any other lo costs that act in suck a way.
Hehehe...A little more research for you then. :p ;)

[captwannabe]

same goes for jerez, I spent 5 weeks out there on a BA joc and didn't think it was that great to be honest

Out of curiosity, why weren't you that impressed with FTE? If BA send people to do a JOC in FTE, they must be doing something right?

[Pilotdom]

The guy in the Pilot magazine training with OAT was almost guaranteed to get a job. Imagine if 6 months down the line he hadnt got a job and was writing about that in Pilot magazine. What would that have done for them.

[PAPI-74]

That goes back a few posts to what a joke those mags are. They are all in each others back pockets, to make money out the believers.

Don't believe and don't buy that cra#, especially if you get a wiff of it being anywhere near a marketing dept. like that article. I didn't buy it, just read it from a table. This just feed the whold chain with cash.
The airlines have stopped their sponsorship, FTO's are flooded, Airlines can pick and choose from all countries, adverts are bigger and bolder....can noone see it.
If it sound too good to be true.....it probably isn't *(as they say)*:ugh: :mad:

[Pilotdom]

Ive read the article since it first appeared as I subscribe to Pilot magazine.

Ive not been taken in by this stuff. Im 22 and am just finishing my PPL. I plan to go all the way but im gonna follow the modular route and keep my day job which is shift work and pays well so i will be able to do all my training and pay for it without getting in to debt. I will be able to keep my current job and will not have to get a job when im qualified ill be able to apply and apply and apply and not have to worry about paying back loans.

Im not bothered what I fly just as long as I can fly.........:ok:

[PAPI-74]

I wish you luck. Quick stat. for you. 70% of distance learners quit to go full time or fail.
The same for the flying side. Give yourself 4 months off with no other pressure. I have seen friends fail because they had to be back at work. That will cost you thousands and a black mark on your C.V.
Modular is just as good as Int. but working and studying is v. tough.
I did mod. full time in house. 5 of the 9 in there were ex. distance learners and more came along every few months into the school for various classes (not just the 2 week cram before the exam).
Those who do get all first time passes and work too....my hat goes off to you, cos you have earned a job at the end.
My point...it's not easy. Some degree students say it is harder doing the ATPL exams. If you are going to do it, go with Bristol GS. Their support is second to none.
Good Luck!

[Pilotdom]

Bristol was my first choice anyway.

Im o.k with the studying and working as Im an engineer for a printing company and I work a continental shift pattern . That means I work 3 days a week or 3 nights so if you took monday as the first day of the month i would work like this

Mon,Tue,Wed days......... then........no work....Thurs,fri,sat,sun,mon,tue....then......wed,thurs,fri night.....then....nowork sat,sun,mon,tue,wed.....then..work....thurs,fri,sat day,sun,mon,tues night and then off till mon and back at start of month.

That means I work 12 days a month and I can devote at least 12 days a month to studying.

Thanks for your advice though I take it onboard and im not expecting an easy ride.

[PAPI-74]

You won't get an easy ride. Think of the exams as a filter to get rid of the ones who couldn't cope with a TR at the end.
They fill up your head with a huge amount of info., some of it you will never use again. This in itself is a test of endurance and personality. Think of the man in the CAA as a twisted, sick individual. His job is to torment you into failing but traps. If you don't keep reading this info every 9 days, you will forget certain concepts or it will take you too long to work out calculations from formula and tables (probably second nature to an engineer).
My piont: it takes constant revision to master what they are asking you in the question. It is worded to trip you up. Bristol will iron it out, but to have no one to show you how to do e.g.multi leg point of equil time calcs or Departure, Convergency,Grid nav, charts / scale, etc...
Like I say, good luck!

[Pilotdom]

Many Thanks

I look forward to the hard slog ahead,and I cant afford to go full time so this is the only option.

[elevengflyer]

I will be able to keep my current job and will not have to get a job when im qualified ill be able to apply and apply and apply and not have to worry about paying back loans.

That sounds like a great plan - it was the same one I had! The reality can, however be very different: For a start you need to give 100% to doing the theory (failing exams is the last thing you want to be doing) and that is not easy I managed it for three quarters of the course and then decided to sacrifice my existing career. This is partly because of point 2 and that is the fact that in my experience there is no such thing as part time flying training - you will find that the training school tell you you're flying at 09.00, BUT things happen and you may not get a slot until 16.00. If you turn that slot down you wont be popular and even more significantly will lose valuable training time.
Some schools will also try to sell you a (modular) course on the pre-text that you can carry on working, BUT think very carefully befor you swallow this line! The benefit to them may be around £30-£40K so they have a vested interest in you signing up. You're attitude is admirable, BUT BEWARE!

[Dotty Daisy]

I'm affraid your stats on the courses you quoted are very incorrect I am from one of those courses and don't have a job along with six of my colleagues. (Sorry but very well done for getting into BA, good effort)

[PAPI-74]

It seemed a bit puffed up to be a realistic figure. Didn't get it from OAT marketing did you MOO.
Mind you, how else do we find out apart from half any figures these places give us?

[New FO]

I'm from 243 at OAT. Certainly most of us are in jobs and pretty quickly, we all got in just before the summer lul. As are 244, actually, lucky buggers (u included moo man) got jobs before us! 241 are all in except about 1. 240, definitely mostly in. Of course there are the odd stragler and sometimes the ones that genuinely were unlucky at sim checks. However, its the odd stragglers you usaually see on here because the rest of us are busy! However, they should be busier, sorry to let you down guys but there are no joibs on here. Those looking for jobs...how muny recruiters business cards are in your wallet? If the answer is 0, stop scaring others, get off ur arses and do something about it! I dont want an argument because thats not exactly conducive to the moaners getting jobs and I'd hate to see anyone get nothing after such an investment. BUT BEWARE EVERYONE, A LARGE AMOUNT OF PEOPLE SCARING YOU ARE MOANING ON A FORUM ON WHICH THEY WONT TELL YOU THEIR NAME INSTEAD OF GETTING OUT THERE AND JOB SEARCHING!

[finals]

To all those making choices about flying schools....

Please please please don't be put off by messages on here from students from various schools regarding any particular flying school. The vast majority of students who chose integrated courses at reputable places like OAT, Cabair, FTE etc... get commercial airline jobs - it may take a week, may take a month, may take a year.

Remember, most of the threads on this website from ex-students are from those who don't have jobs yet. This means that for those looking in from the outside, all there seems to be is resentment and regret...

Most people who have got jobs in the airlines either don't have the time or just don't feel the need to go on websites like these to write about the flying school they went to (i'm on leave at the moment so thought i'd have a look to see how much OAT-knocking there is on here). I finished at Oxford in November and had a job offer a few weeks later. Almost everyone on my course is now either flying jets around Europe or waiting to begin type ratings. And that's within 6 months of finishing the APP.

Go and see the flying schools, look at the stats for job success, and make sure you listen to those who did get jobs as well as those who didn't.

One final point..... every day I check-in at work, it's like an OAT re-union. That says something........

[captwannabe]

If you had read my posts properly, you would have realised that I am not anti-Oxford or anti-integrated courses, but I am merely pointing out other options. I made factual points stating that CTC have better graduate placement than any other FTO. I also said that other integrated courses (such as FTE, which is less expensive) have the same prospects for their graduates as Oxford, which is also true. Is there something wrong with comparing other FTOs? It seems there is a case of Can't Read/Won't Read on these forums. Just because I'm not singing Oxford's praises (nor am I criticising them!), doesn't mean that I'm anti-Oxford. If someone mentions another FTO in the same sentence as Oxford, people take offence, and think there is criticism aimed at Oxford. I think that you have to compare the different FTOs because if people read only about Oxford, they will think Oxford is the only way. If you think Oxford is the right place for you out of all your options, then by all means, go for it!

[Johny Speedbrakes]

Capt. Wanabee,

Good point re FTO's. I remeber very well the uncertainty feeling before ATPL training. I was in the same course as New FO and we both acheived the same grades and even shared the same appartment in Arizona.

However now he has a great job and I don't. (Well done New FO by the way :ok: ) Am I concearned ........... not too much. OAT keep in regular contact and I'm always praying for an airline to answer one of my e-mails!

I couldn't fault OAT in their training, I acheived better grades and first time passes in all flying tests there - far better that I thought I could acheive.

I couldn't possibly say which FTO course is better - probably all very similar or if you should train intergrated or modular.

I have heard a rumor though "student rumor network" that OAT are starting a new scheme with GECAT called (or nicknamed) the GPP. I can think of at least four large carriers students have gone to.

Having been unsucessful @ GECAT I'm slightly biased. (Make sure you can get sim checked on B737 is all I'll say!)

Good luck and feel free to ask any thing. I've got quiet a bit of spare time on my hands at the moment!! :rolleyes:

[Mooneyboy]

I was Oxford modular very similar similar situation to Johny Speedbrakes ( was probaly out in Arizona same time but us mods got the fantastic Seneca V to play with). Finished MCC and JOT in March.

Can't say I have too many complaints with Oxford at all. Groundschool was very good got me all first time passes high average. CPL/ME was great Seneca V, desert, pool and Streets of New York:cool: . The IR took a little longer than it should have done due to weather and tech ( their fleet looking tired) but had great instructor who put a lot of effort and time into his instruction. MCC and JOT great fun, challenging and really felt like all your training coming together, a shame the sim broke for a week though mid training. Afterwards about a month later OAT put me forward to GECAT, got through to interview but failed there which was all my own fault.

Oxford have done exactly what they said. Good quality training, no extra costs ( apart from partially IR 1st time but didn't reqire extra training) and tried to find me a job. No regrets about going to Oxford what so ever would do it again but maybe APP if had to start from scratch 0 time.

Position now. No job:( . Checking email endlessly hoping for something after loads of CVs sent, ring them up but they always seem to be busy:ugh: but I am very fortunate to get multi pistion time in every few weeks so I can't complain.

Regards

Mooneyboy:ok:

[Craggenmore]

Where shall I start? :E

Once finished, my course (pre-APP) were all dropped like we had the plague but two months later, and surprise, surprise, the first APP course all had jobs within a month of finishing (several of whom I'm still in touch with btw ;) ).

To our minds, OAT told/rigged/bribed/pleaded with the airlines to 'try' their new product so all recruitment via OAT was put on hold until the APP'ers started to graduate, meaning that we couldn't get a foot in the door for love nor money. This was, ahem, 'revealed' by the chap from Channex at the BALPA EOC 2005 who asked me why I hadn't secured an interview since leaving OAT, to which I replied that airlines such as his were currently only recruiting APP'ers. A redder face and stuttering voice would be hard to imagine!

Thankfully 2 years on, we have all found jobs by ourselves but we still feel sad that our memories are not as pleasant as the APP'ers, who as one poster said, is like a reunion when he turns up at work! How nice for him...

[PAPI-74]

Yes....how nice indeed.
:mad:

[737atlast]

guys...

hmmm I think Oxford where an absolutely pitiful money grabbing organisation. I finished in April 2002, few months after sept 11th, so the market was very very slack. My issues started when the market picked up they were not interested in older courses. A certain tall bloke there was the most unhelpful and didnt really seem to have a clue what was happening, maybe he just head his head in the clouds.

I managed to get a job three years after finishing on the 737 at Tfly. Very happy now and glad I didnt have to rely on these bandits.


737

[TurboJ]

I smypathise with those OAT students who have failed to secure employment after spending so much cash. However, there is nothing worse than listening to whining OAT students who seem to think that the FTO owes them a job.

Try a wife, 2.4 kids, full time job working 24hr roster, fitting in modular courses around annual leave and days off and then 2.5 yrs later trying to find a job by networking, hour building, 200 CVs etc etc etc......and only now 4yrs after gaining a PPL aged 28, I have a nice jet type rating on my licence.

Guys / girls, now you have been spoon fed the requirements and obtained your shiny new licence, go and do some work and find yourself a job. It won't come to you.

[scroggs]

TurboJ, well done on your achievement. However, if people have paid for a service then they should receive it, and if they don't receive it they are entitled to complain.

However, they should complain to those who are in a position to do something about their complaint, which is not the readers of this forum - though reading these complaints may well influence those currently deciding where to go.

Scroggs

[bluepeely]

Is there any truth in the saying " An Atpl licensce is not as important as to where you got it" ?????

Or is it the FTO's dangling a large carrot in the eyes of us impressionable wannabee's:confused:

[Cirrus_Clouds]

This is a very interesting post.

Firstly, I wish you guys/women all the best in getting your first job and support you 100%, I would even consider FI if it came to it.

I am in a position where i'm about to start an ATPL and this has just confirmed my suspicions. For every good experience there is a bad.

I am currently researching into where to do my training, whether to do it along side a job or not. One thing that's telling me about this is the "marketing/advertising" that makes it all sound it's rosy, stating there is a higher chance of success, this doesn't gurantee success still. Every company does this and as an individual looking around I am putting this aspect aside; but sure, I want to train some where, where my chances of employment are great.

It's pure luck in my option (with the help of others yes) whether one gets a job. Your chances may be higher if you pay integrated, but we all know it's a gamble/risk.

If I were in the same position you guys, I would be *loody *issed off, but it was a risk you decided to take. This is what is preventing me from doing Integrated as the consequences wouldn't be pleasant to say the least!!

I think if one worked alongside flight training, one would "minimize" any regrets/debt matters. It is VERY difficult to say what is the right decision, only you can make that, as there are so many ways into flying.

I have had lots of experience working my arse for a company producing commercial software and then get treated like *hit, after they've got what they want. This is business and nothing will change (one thing I've learnt from life experiences so far).

If I were in your situation, I would do exactly what your doing now, even approaching them directly for free assistance (after you've paid them all that cash!) in obtaining this first job and doing what ever you can do to ensure you keep "flying" and make yourself appealing to the airlines or whoever.

I've seen this in many other cases, people going to excellent uni's, going away with excellent grades, but.... In the end it's persistence, luck, who you know that puts you where you are today.

Keep plugging away!!!!!!!! and REMAIN POSITIVE (I know how hard it is)

[LongGoneSilva]

I was a student on 245.

Just to keep things up to date, aside from the four guys taken on by BA and two sponsored pilots, no one (on a course of 18) has had any joy on the job front. We generally finished about 2 months ago and hopefully this drought is more a reflection of the slower summer job market.

A few of my colleagues have had some promising leads recently, both through Oxford and off their own backs, so hopefully the market is picking up again.

I have heard mixed opinions on just how much assistance the careers team have been. But ultimately, if they have no airlines asking for graduates, there isn't a great deal they can do.

My two cents worth... I had a great time at Oxford and believe they run a good course, though I obviously have nothing to compare it against. BUT... if you want an almost guarenteed job when you finish and can get in, go to CTC (I believe they have a 97% employment rate).

Best of luck to everyone looking

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Just to go back to the distance learning thing for a second, make sure you put it on your CV if you did it that way. I didn't because I thought it might not fit the profile of the "team/group" orientated pilot (one gets paranoid writing a cv!). But many captains I've flown with were impressed that I managed all first time passes and >90% average on a distance learning course. I didn't realise at the time that so many people gave up on it and joined the full time classroom option.

As for OAT vs others... Yes they don't have as good a record as CTC. But their record is still pretty good for the APP. It's just not reasonable to expect guaranteed employment for the profession we've all chosen. No matter how hard flight schools try to recruit people with "the right stuff", not every graduate will have performed the way they were supposed to.

So yes you still take a gamble spending 100K. If OAT don't recommend you to airlines, you are probably worse off than if you went to a small school (read the posts on Flybe not selecting OAT graduates from the online application). But if you work hard and get the grades, the 100K gamble is very likely to pay off.

Different story if you go the modular way at OAT though. Less money to gamble, but:

1) You'd be foolish to think that OAT won't try harder to place APP guys (even if you have very good grades)

2) Some of the airlines who work with OAT simply do not take modular candidates, even recommended ones (BA being the most significant one).

Worked for me though :-)

P

[elevengflyer]

1) You'd be foolish to think that OAT won't try harder to place APP guys (even if you have very good grades)

2) Some of the airlines who work with OAT simply do not take modular candidates, even recommended ones (BA being the most significant one).

Yeah, quite right, comes back to the old argument, same exams, same aircraft, same licence, same instructors, different sum paid to FTO, different opportunity - spot the difference!

[captwannabe]

Their recommendation is what helps to get your foot in the door me thinks

[aftab]

flybe did nt accept applications from oxford, why is tht??

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Of course this is a rumour network, so you can never trust anything 100%. But there has been various posts talking about FlyBe not picking non-recommended OAT graduates from their database and there's never been anybody denying that fact. Ian Cheese has always said that they take both integrated and modular students, and you'll find many posts on PPRuNe from modular students who got the job at FlyBe from applying by email (in the old days) or online. But they never seem to be OAT modular students!

I apologise if it's not true, so if you're OAT modular and got the job by applying online, please post!

P

[dartagnan]

professionalism, aptitude and personality .

you are right, during my conversion, many pilots in my school have failed their IR , even 2 to 3 times.

I have flown with many pilots, some are really good, and some are really bad.I have seen pilots who have never been soloed and have been send back home after 70-80 hours flight time.It has nothing to do with schools, money,...

[approach320]

Hello everybody,

I know there has always been a controversy between people who think OAT is good...or OAT is bad....

But I just wanted to ask 1 simple question.
Just so you know, I have been to OAT already, visited the facilities and talked to people, and the fact is...that I really like it.
But....what happens after you graduate? It's true that they do send people to BA's inteviews or other ones...but the majority of people don't get selected. So....what's the point on having gone to OAT for your training if, even having been recommended, you don't get that job offer that you are dreaming of?? You are in the same place that everybody finds even if you haven't gone to Oxford : NO JOB.

And....with the 200 hrs or so that you get in OAT...where are you going to get a job interview even if you have OAT's brand in your CV?? It doesn's matter, right??

Well....thanks for your answers and happy flyings!!

[ChocksAwayUK]

I haven't been to OAT.. but from having gone through the training process, met a lot of other wanabees and spent more time than I'd like to admit on this forum I'd say that your observations are very accurate. With OAT you are paying a (very large) premium for a small possiblilty of being recommended to an airline. I'd also say that if you are of the calibre to be recommended by OAT then you'll probably be capable of getting on well elsewhere (CTC, GECAT, finding a job off you're own back etc having done a modular course).

I hear the training at OAT is good. And if it suits you personally to do your training full time at a place where everything is organised for you from start to finish... and you feel it is worth paying an extra 30k or whatever for a slight increase in job success then go for OAT.

My thoughts are that OAT's 'Integrated" course is trading off the back of it's reputation based in a previous, now defunct, system. But if it suits you, then go for it.

I'm sure some guys with firsthand knowledge of the place will be able to give you some more direct info.

[speedrestriction]

I haven't been to OAT

:hmm:

a small possiblilty of being recommended to an airline.

:confused: :ugh: :confused:

It seems that many people people (not refering to you Chocks) who post on Oxford threads either have an axe to grind with OAT or have some petty dislike, maybe leading to people believing that there are larger numbers of disaffected former OAT customers than there really are.

The fact of the matter is that if you measure up (ie gain a good exam average 80%-85%+, and reasonable skill test results) you will in all likelyhood get a recommendation sooner or later. Once you've got the shot at an interview it is solely down to you, OAT have done all they can.

You can always go modular at OAT or Cabair if you want to hedge your bets.

sr

[Megaton]

Flying is about ability to fly and not ability to pay! Just because you've forked out enormous sums does not, and should not, guarantee you a place in in the RHS. To get that lucrative job you need to be not only highly motivated but possess a modicum of ability and a personality that presents well at interview. There's no point in being technically proficient if you possess the people skills of Gollum!

Back your oiginal question: does OAT "send" people for interview? NO! OAT may recommend someone for interview but ultimately BA choose themseleves who to interview. I have a good mate who passed his IR last week at OAT who has an interview with BA ext week - up to him now whether he gets a job or not.

Finally, I'm not sure hw you can rate the quality of training at OAT compared with other providers. We all pass the same eams and same flight tests. Some of the instructors at OAT have instructed at other schools whilst others are merely killing time before the airlines. The upshot is that OAT teaches to the same standards as every one else using the same pool of instructors.

[PaulW]

I very rarely post on PPrune I just read others posts. One of the observations I have is that the majority of people who post about Oxford, know someone who has heard that.... and talk as if they are knowledgable.

The only people qualified to comment on what Oxford does for Oxford students in finding them a job and how they have been treated are by definition ex Oxford students who have been through the careers department.

Am I an Oxford student, yes, do I have a job no but thats because of some personal bad luck the rest of my class bar one were employed within six months and all are flying 737s A320s and 757s. Are you still responsible for getting your own job yes, but what a fantastic thing it is to receive an email out of the blue stating "you have been put forward to airline X expect a call within the week" and a few days later get a call calling you for interview from an airline that publicly states they dont recruit low hours. All this when you are getting depressed from no response from airlines that you send your c.v. to.

The last post about flying ability is very simplistic and not realistic we are not in utopia where no one is influenced by personality, reputation, contacts or politics. The majority of experienced crew will admit they dont consider themselves the most skilled aviators in the world or thought they were the best candidate when they got jobs it came down to a combination of personality, contacts, luck and preperation for the selection process. They probably laugh at the squabbleing between people with 250 500 1000 hours which in the big picture is still little to no experience, there are some shocking pilots with 250 hours and still some with 5000 hours. When conducting an interview or sim check they dont ask you to demonstrate your flying ability (its taken as a given) just your non technical skills; co-operation, leardership, situational awareness and decision making. Every and anything you can do to increase your chances of getting a job quicker and with a higher starting wage to pay back your loan the better. Whether thats use the reputation of the school and the contacts that come with that reputation or the self confidence from the knowledge the training you received you thought was excellent and enabled you to get the best possible results that you could get. No one that has been to Oxford claims that Oxfords training is better because they cant comment on that, all they know is their personal experience, I for one was happy with my experience and thought the training I received was excellent with regard to both pilot and engineering training.

Which ever path you choose have the confidence in the decision you made and see it through.

Edited due to thread being merged now in thread where much if not all of the above has already been covered.

[jamestkirk]

I am not critisizing or questioning you, this is just a real example of your following points. Actually, i agree with your perspective.

Flying is about ability to fly and not ability to pay
A friend of mine with a major UK carrier asked someone high up in recruitment about getting me an interview assessment etc based on a session (albeit a jolly with one of their training capatins). He was yold they only take integrated students from oxford. When my friend said ' but what about ability'. The reply was "ability is not company policy".

modicum of ability and a personality that presents well at interview. There's no point in being technically proficient if you possess the people skills of Gollum!

I trained at Oxford (modular). Now don't get me wrong about integrated people. I beer'ed with them all the time and the majority were great. BUT, there were a few Gollums with egotistical, spoilt attitudes with absolutely no social skills to display if thier life depended on it.................Yes, you know whats coming, they were the first to get a job.
In that instance, I blame the people recruiting them.

In my opinion, not all HR departments have people who are appropriately trained. And just because you are an airline pilot does not men you have good people skills, can make good 'needs analysis' prfiles of people, or are a naturally good junior yet alone senior manager.

[Megaton]

Ex-modular myself and have previously had a long career culminating in a role as a senior manager of both aircraft and people so feel reasonably positioned to comment. Furthermore, now employed by BA as a (very) junior FO!

The comment regarding ability to fly was frivolous but was a mechanism to demonstrate that just because you've paid a lot of money to attend a school such as OAT, there is no automatic right to a seat in a jet. BA interviews have no technical content because they are looking for interpersonal team skills and attitude and not single-seat sky gods. In a challenging situation, company SOPs will normally have P2 flying while the captain uses his experience to manage the situation. During the first brief of a tour we normally emphasise that in demanding situations full use of automatics is encouraged. Believe me, I (more than most) realise that stick & throttle skills alone won't get you a job in an airline.

Note to self: refrain from using figures of speech in the future.

[mcgoo]

Ham-Phisted its nice to see that you are on the flight deck at BA being a modular student, contrary to what OAT would have us believe!

[High Wing Drifter]

There's no point in being technically proficient if you possess the people skills of Gollum!
Aw ****e! That's £40K down the drain.

[approach320]

Does FTE have the same job prospects of OAT...I mean...all those recommendations and interviews that OAT grads seem to get??...because OAT put a lot of emphasis on their 126 recruits this year...but I haven't seen that at FTE...
Do FTE grads get jobs within 7 months too??

HAppy flyings!!!:ok:

[dartagnan]

but the majority of people don't get selected. !

correct, and if you play at the euroloto(the eurolooser), the problem is the same, lot of applicants, a few winners...


I tell you something, lot of pilots are not good.In my ex schools, most guys failed 2 times their IR.I passed mine first time, included my 14 written. in fact I bet guys from Oxford. I have been hired as a FI 2 weeks after being graduated from a very small school.Got in an airline later, and then lost my job due to 11/september

Schools does nothing wrong, it 's the students who were too bad.
they do not have the skill, are not serious, or simply lazy.

Some guys need 10 h for their solo flight, some pilots need 50 to 70 hours.Some pilots are never soloed regardless of how much money you spent.
Some pilots are freaking dangerous and should not have a commercial license but for money reason, they give you the blue license knowing you will never fly for an airline.
if you do a search, you will find some famous person who crashed , by exemple:Kennedy.

this is why, most guys are not selected.and here in Europe, we don't know very well Oxford. All we know, it is a town and they have a reputable university, but majorities of companies in the world don't care if you come from Oxford or from a smurfs' town...

I don't like pilots who have too much cash. they are usually arrogant and if one day I have to recruit pilots, I will do my best to put all Oxford CV in the bin.

[speedrestriction]

Its funny there have been three replies and none of you are Oxford students what does that say?

What makes you think that Paul?

sr

[High Wing Drifter]

dartagnan,
I tell you something, lot of pilots are not good.
Just about all prospective pilots I have met seem pretty serious and competent. In fact nearly all the people I met who were doing their ATPLs the same time as me now have jobs with a variety of airlines. My IR examiner says that 80% of pilots pass first series and 40% pass first time.

However, after saying all that, I forget the programme as it was ages ago, but a BA Captain was interviewed on Radio 4 for a peice on the pilot 'shortage'. He said there is not a shortage of pilots, but there is a serious shortage of employable pilots. I think it is true that many stand little realistic chance of being employed as airline pilots.

Ham Phisted,
OAT modular course perchance? Could it be that the major selling point of OAT, Cabair and FTE graduation is training to known standard in a single environment with contiguous reliable student records? In contast the pick'n'mix modular guys probably don't have a verifiable training history. If so then employability probably has little to do with modular/integrated.

[Megaton]

HWD

Nope. Didn't to Oxford. Went to different schools for PPL, IR, ATPLs, CPL & MCC. The "known standard" has nothing to do with Oxford or anywhere else for that matter - it's called the IRT!

....there is a serious shortage of employable pilots. I think it is true that many stand little realistic chance of being employed as airline pilots.

If so then employability probably has little to do with modular/integrated.

Definitely agree on these points. Some people, I believe, have unrealistic expectations of their employability and may be able to achieve standard required for a CPL/IR but that doesn't make them suitable for a job in an airline environment.

[jamestkirk]

Ham Phisted. Absolutely right.

Oh, and do keep using figures of speech. Generally, its more to the point than the some of the rambling, verbose, idealistic nonsense that sometimes is posted by people with no social skills.

[High Wing Drifter]

Ham Phisted,

Not really important, but by "standard", I was referring more to a meta-standard that a school could apply to the way it teaches students, not the specific objectives required for each license. By "known" I don't mean public knowledge, but more in relation to the good reputation a school may have built up whilst engaged submitting grads for inteview to those who employ.

I suppose, I'm just trying to understand what the value add is with OAT, etc. There is the general perception that you are more employable if you are ex-OAT, FTE, etc. If I were an employer I'd probably make a bee-line for the known quantity/quality first. Are OAT (etc), and its graduates considered known quanties/qualities do you think? (ignoring the Gollums for the time being)

[PaulW]

I think dartagnan hit the nail on the head with his rant;

"I don't like pilots who have too much cash. they are usually arrogant and if one day I have to recruit pilots, I will do my best to put all Oxford CV in the bin."

As an indervidual you have no idea what preconscieved ideas are in the recruiters heads. It doesnt matter if you are an all round good guy great grades, made your own personal decision to take your own personal path to get your license involving many sacrifices and lots of hard work and thoroughly deserve a job, knowing if only you could meet the recruiter he would recognise that. But if the guy who you need to pursuade to even invite you for an interview has an attitude like that your knackered, and swap Oxford for any other school, swap integrated for modular or military helicopter/fast jet for self improver if he is closed minded and your experience doesnt match his own personal experience for all you know your knackered. Thank goodness most recruiters cant afford to be so prejudiced and are open minded and objective.

I hope dartagnan doesnt make it to recruiter, but if he does I hope he will have mellowed by then.

Thats why I think these threads about where to go and which is the most successful path are posted time and time again. We are all passionate about getting a job and want reassurance the decision we have made is correct, from an industry whose recruitment process is far from transparent.

[Megaton]

Never said I came fresh from anywhere! Spent under a year and less than 500 hrs on a turboprop so started at BA with around 800-900 hrs total time as a "direct entry pilot!" Still had absolutely no idea, of course, about what was going on though :)

[Megaton]

Thanks. But, as always, happier being lucky rather than good any day!

[future captain]

His profile suggest 'bus 319/20/21 :ok:

[speedrestriction]

With regard to OAT modular, at the moment from my group of peers over 80% of us are in employment or in a hold pool within 12 months of completing MCC. Some with a little help from OAT, some off our own bats.

I have no idea what the employment rates are like in comparable schools like CCAT, PAT, AFT etc, they could be just as good.

sr

[Megaton]

Thanks, future captain, you beat me to it!

BA seem to be recruiting mostly to the Airbus at the moment with a few going 757/767. Some ex-mil fast jet guys have been offered 75/76 but most go Airbus. Ex-Airbus and mil truckie types go mostly to the 777. 737 is for ab-initios only from what I can gather so ex-Oxfords etc

[dartagnan]

My IR examiner says that 80% of pilots pass first series and 40% pass first time.

.

and you consider that 60% of failure (first time) is good.it is simply scandalous!

one of my ex-chief pilot instructor told me 90% of pilots he met in his career are not good and should do something else.I fully agreed with him except I said 80%.

But in this business, money is more important than safety! we have FMS to do the job,a pilot doesn't fly a plane anymore. .

[ole]

im sure all of you have all heard or seen that oat can get you a job and they show their employment stats on their website............but is it all that plain sailing??(im sure they lie a bit because at the end of the day they are a business and they need to make some profit and they never say out of how many got a job they just state the numbers of graduates getting a job at airlines)

also many of the people training to become pilots do not have any fall back plans it terms of university degrees they just have A-levels do they think they are gods or something???how sure can you be that you are going to get a job remember remember approximately £55000 is a lot of money and we wouldnt like to pour it down the drain would we???

[babolat]

Please read this (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=251490) first.

Some days are harder than others... :ugh:

[planecrazy.eu]

What was the point in that message? Whats the point in putting OAT down? I dont think OAT ever lie, they might strech the truth at times and the marketing is designed for them to shine, and yeah there in it for a profit, and i recon there in it for other reasons too!

So if OAT is to expensive, or you have doubts, dont use them, but there track record and term in business cant be wrong, or they wouldnt be in business, they couldnt ask what they do, and they wouldnt come as one of the most recommended schools around...

A fall back plan is good, but look at stats, a fair few uni leavers dont get the jobs they want, look at internships in the states, there are like 20 people fighting for one place at the end in many cases, and those guys have to fund there lifes whilst they take the 1 in 20 chance of getting a job as most internships asre unpaid...

Your post doesnt really ask a question, so, what was the use, we all have eyes, we can all read pasts post that have covered this in great detail only to find at the end of the topic that the views balance 50/50 in most cases...

[Katherine Alexandra]

As already said, what was the point :rolleyes:

Incidentally, A levels are surely just as good now as in 2 years if everything goes to pot...and I don't think I'm a god. I don't see the point spending 3 years doing something I don't want to do now when I have a choice...

-sigh-

[sicky]

not just doing something you don't want to do but also paying for it as well, not cheap when you consider you want to borrow even more to train further as a pilot.

however, that's another story and another argument for another thread :)

[Katherine Alexandra]

Good point!

I'm, unfortunately, not made of money. OK, so I'm not actually paying for ATPL training (that'll be Daddy's pension, but then it's what he'd have wanted me to do :) ) but I would have had to pay for Uni...and Type Rating in a couple of years if a nice airline doesn't fancy paying for it for me!

[skyflyer737]

I finished at OAT a few months ago (integrated) and almost all my coursemates got a job within 2 months of leaving. I'm the last to find a job on my course and it took 4 months after finishing. Every one of us is on a jet - most on the B737, some on the A320 and one on the RJ100.

Say what you like about OAT, but the airlines do like their name and I can assure you the stats on their website are not lies.

Most on my course didn't have a degree. That's not what airlines seem to look for. They look for someone ideally to be early to mid 20s with a good flying record.

[BUS319]

skyflyer737 good for you mate. Nice to see someone sticking up for OAT. I am also an ex integrated student finished a few months before you. I was lucky enough to find out I had an interview the day I finished and within a month was sitting in a room doing a type rating for the airbus. I know I was lucky with regards the short time it took however out of the 20 or so in my class 8 months on everyone has a job with all but 2 on a jet.
Dont get me wrong I got very ticked off with them at times and didnt agree with all methods they adopt however they are a good school and as you said the stats are realistic.
Anyhow best of luck with the flying pal.

For those who are interested I didnt have a degree nor did about half my class.

[skyflyer737]

Thanks Bus319, I just thought it was worth adding a post saying that things actually aren't that bad and there are plenty of jobs out there. For months I read Pprune with most posts being negative, criticising this, that and everything else.

Doing your training and job hunting - like every job in the world - is stressful and worrying and you'll meet idiots who annoy you frequently....but it's worth it in the end and once you're sitting in the sharp end of a jet above the clouds it's well worth it. :ok:

[ole]

but how can these people be so sure that they are going to get a job

[skyflyer737]

No airline is ever going to offer you a job before you start training unless you're sponsored. No one is sure they will get a job when they set out. But if you go to a decent flight training school and equip yourself with the qualifications and skills then there's a very good chance you'll be taken on, as long as the industry continues to expand as it is doing now.

If you want total job security then the airline business is not for you, Ole.

[Katherine Alexandra]

Very true. Most of us have done it/are doing it/will do it because we are 100% sure we want to be in aviation and because we have the resilience and drive to hope that things turn out well and, if they don't, to pick ourselves up and find something else to do. You've just got to hope, but there'll never be a right time!

[cfwake]

skyflyer727 & bus319

good to hear that it's not all bad! starting down at OAT 26th of march and often wonder precisely how many of the grads are employed from each course etc!

well done for getting through the course, hopefully i'll see you in the skies some day!

cf

[g1344304]

So what exactly is the likelyhood that a graduate will receive a job when they graduate? Oxford state that most graduates get a job within 6 months, but how much is most? The job figures they post on their website are impressive but how many of these jobs were graduates within the past 6 months and how many didnt get jobs? I emailed OAT last year at a point when they had stated that there had been 80 jobs attained so far that year and asked how many graduates had there been that year and the answer was 92. Seems like pretty good figures but for all I know the ones who got jobs could have graduated 2 years ago.

I always thought CTC was the best option as they place you with an airline before they complete your final training and I liked the financial security side too, however they do have a clause that states:

"Cadets who are not selected by an airline during training enter the holding pool with Wings ATP entrants following the intermediate phase of training. The bond of a cadet in this position is retained by APL and the normal arrangement is that you would enter an airline on a "direct entry" salary scale, from which you will be required to make your bank loan repayments."

How many students does this happen to? Are there any figures? For all the applicant knows, 90% could end up with the loan on their own shoulders rather than getting placed with an airline.

What about other FTO's? OAT and CTC are the main ones I wish to gain entry to but what about FTE and PTC. PTC state on their website that 98% of graduates get a first officer job within 2 months of graduating (too good to be true surely!). I get the impression from FTE that once you graduate you are pretty much on your own and althoough they do try to give advice, finding a job is something you have to undertake on your own.

As someone who is currently applying to FTOs I would greatly appreciate some figures on likely hood of employment within 6 months of graduation, especially for my parents as they are very unsure about the whole process and do not want to remortgage their house unless they are confident I will get a job at the end and I know there are others on the same boat.

[boogie-nicey]

Likelihood NOT likelyhood. If it wasn't in the title I wouldn't have mentioned it.

[MIKECR]

Nobody can wave a magic wand unfortunately. You might be lucky and get a job, then again, you might not. In a nutshell, you take your chance. You will be competing for a job in a market place that is flooded with low hour CPL/IR's. If you wish to add yourself to the bunfight then you need to make sure you can afford to repay your loan commitments until a job comes along(assuming it does). Its a lot of money and there are no promises. Think very carefuly about it.

[Wannabe1974]

Skyflyer737 said "Most on my course didn't have a degree. That's not what airlines seem to look for. They look for someone ideally to be early to mid 20s with a good flying record."

Those of you that are slightly, ahem, older... Don't be too put off by the comment that they are looking for someone in the early to mid 20s. Firstly this is now ILLEGAL in UK employment law (although I believe this is yet to be tested in court - Flying Lawyer will know). Secondly, any decent operator should be interested in what you can do for them, not necessarily how old you are. The idea that someone in (for example) their early 30s is too old has had it's day. You still have 30 years flying left at this age. Guys and girls of even grander vintage are making it into the airlines these days.
I don't want to start a discussion on how old is too old etc etc, just making a minor point.

[Adj]

Hi all
Im also a recent grad from OAT - more recent than the previous posts i think as our course finished last month!
As regards employment - there are 23 students on my course, after 1 month of the first finishing (and a few tail enders to go) 6 already have jobs with Thomas cook, 1 has a job with Air Greenland, 8 of us have BA sim checks of which 2 have aready passed. Potentialy that could leave just 7 people (30%) without employment straight from leaving the course let alone months along the line. I also know the 2 of those stil loooking have job interviews very soon and could secure employment so it looks good reading so far!
For those wondering about age, one of the guys who has a BA sim check is aged 39. It is correct in saying that it does become more difficult but not impossible by any means. Get your head down and work hard and this is what you can achieve!
A lot of people will come to OAT and over half will be knocked back on the assessment. The reason grads tend to do well is that the assessment ensures that 1) the students has the capabilities to complete the course 2) you have the right personality for the airline industry 3) if an airine came to OAt after a grad - they could recommend you without hesitation.
And believe me not all students at OAT can tick the box to those few points otherwise im sure the employment stats would be even higher!
The stats i believe are about 90% have jobs within 6 months and our course is well wel on the way to achieving that if not better!
For me personally the reason i chose OAT was to give myself the best possible chance. I knew if i put my mind to it i could get good results. OAT gave me a shot with BA and i grabbed that with both hands.
I haven't regretted parting with a penny of that cash since day 1 as ive got exactly what i paid the price tag for. Yes other FTO's are much cheaper but i might not have got the chances of employment i have had here. I can now start earning months at least before many others at different FTO's will secure employment and that more than makes up for the difference in course pricing!
we all have our own opinions anyway but hope this is useful

adj ;)

[Flyingstevie]

Don't forget the guys who went to Thomas Cook were sponsorships, weren't they?

[Adj]

So they don't count in employemt stats now your telling me?!?! :ugh:

They still had to do interviews and apply just like the rest of us, it was a "conditional" job offer meaning they have to meet the criteria set by the airline to still qualify for the job. All 6 did and ticked the boxes as stated in my previous post and hence why they have jobs!!

You've stated a fact there so what point exactly are you trying to make?! ;)

At the end of a day a job is a job - There are only a fixed number of places on each course so the more sponsored students the better!
Just wait til the Netjets kicks in - 32 students this year then potentialy 48 next year. Thats not on top of the usual intake and course that run!

[FrayCampbell608]

Reading the OAT posts is really confidence inspiring. Can i ask where you giys are based and have you simply packed up and gone were the jobs are?
An past graduate of OAT told me that in the past they provided you with a maximum of 3 job offers through the college (If you refuse a job 3times, tehy leave you on yoru own to look)

Im loking at OAT for next year. I currently work in Cambridge, am finishing my final year of uni next year (no im not at Cambridge uni') then hopefully commencing training.

I realise all the colleges and airlines are in the South, but do many people get jobs up North? When im back home a job at manchester or Liverpool would be idyllic. Sadly im sure it doesnt work like that in the real world!

[future captain]

Plenty of airlines out of manchester and liverpool. Should be possible.

"An past graduate of OAT told me that in the past they provided you with a maximum of 3 job offers through the college (If you refuse a job 3times, tehy leave you on yoru own to look)"

The dont have to provide you anything, they try and assist in looking for the jobs. To get three job offers would be well, amazing :ok:

[FrayCampbell608]

Which brings me to the obvious point that things in aviation must have changed over 20 years since he graduated!

[skylog]

Just a few lines about what i experienced at OAT.

OAT got me from A-Z via the modular route, in hindsight i would probably go there again since the training was top notch, training standards were high, tolerances were restrictive which undoubtedly made me a better pilot, staff were helpful, i met a few interesting albeit entertaining people and made a lot of friends.

Regarding career help i didnt get any(i was modular), other than CV help and occasional correspondence with advice and updates from N.M.(a true gentleman), having said that i know a few APP guys who got recommended to the majors even though they had a 2nd series pass and you wouldnt want to spend a minute stuck in a ''tin can'' with them, while other APP Grads who had exceptional results are still waiting.
Highlighting the fact that there still is a hint of nepotism when it comes to the recommendations board.

OAT did include My recent employment in their web page statistics, even though i got it through my sheer determination, however i have no problem with that since they do have a disclaimer in full view.

I doubt that having OAT on my CV helped in me securing a job, however going there surely instilled in me some basic principles, techniques and airmanship which i found really helpfull in subsequent interviews, checkrides and day to day flying.

As i said OAT was and probably still is a great school and it is a business at the end of the day, your outcome depends on what your attitude is like and how you deal with people and situations.

[737cap2b]

Hi,

I can't seem to find this answer anywhere so please don't get upset :)! The question i want to ask is how easy is it to find a job after finishing OAT? How long did it take people who have done the course? Many Thanks

[Farrell]

I get the feeling from the way you have asked this question, that you think that training with OAT will increase your chances of getting an airline job.

I know students who have been to OAT and have gotten jobs within weeks of qualifying.
I also know OAT students who are still looking for jobs a year after finishing their training.

In the above paragraph, you can change the name of the school to any other one that you wish and the statements will still hold true.

Having OAT on your CV may help with some employers but not all.
There are other factors too. For example, how you come across at interview. I have sat in on airline interviews in the past where I have seen very highly qualified fATPLs fail selection because of how they came across. Some were deemed arrogant, some didn't look the part, others gave the wrong impression in other ways.

For some trainees, it is easy to get a job after training - for others it is a struggle. The majority of the successful ones are "right place, right time". Others have people on the inside who can point them in the right direction.

Lots of jobs also come from "recommendation" by another pilot who knows you, or has trained with you.

Your choice of school is not the be all and end all of getting you a job.

Farrell

[737cap2b]

Yes, I want to train with OAT and i would rather pay more money to ensure I do get a job at the earliest after qualifying!

[akindofmagic]

May I ask how you are qualified to comment on the likelihood of getting a job, after training with OAT?

[future captain]

scratchingthesky

Was some of the 4 and half years due to post 2001, were you caught up in it?

[Cirrus_Clouds]

Hey all,

Looking into possibly doing the Waypoint Programme with Oxford; has this scheme been successful with students finding jobs?

Thanks.

Cirrus

[DutchBird-757]

As the topic states 'who's got a job', I thought I'd reply that I recently got a job via Oxford. Time between finishing and start selection was 6 weeks.

A stat; 72% of 3 full classes (incl mine plus 1 above and 1 below) have got a job before their graduation ceremony! With a high number doing selection as we speak. The number of jobs that were arranged through OAT was very high. Don't have the exact number.

Not bad if you ask me...

[future captain]

What sort of airlines with they heading if you don't mind me asking.