British 747 looses all engines

[herkman]

In 1988 I believe that a British Airways 747, was overflying Indonesa, when they flew through what their radar said was cloud, but in actual fact was vulcano dust.

All engines stopped, and I believe that after loosing 20,000 ft, they were able to get restarts.

Aircraft upon arrival at Perth, required all four engines to be changed.

Does anyone have a copy of the CVR of this incident.

Thanks and regards

Col Tigwell

[airborne_artist]

Where's the military connection :confused:

[FOMere2eternity]

Where's the military connection

Oh for God's sake artist, do I have to spell it out?

In 1988 (3 yrs before GW1) I believe that a British Airways 747 (like the one used to get SF into Kuwait in GW1), was overflying Indonesa (well, Indonesia has a military and we sell them Hawks), when they flew through what their radar (military invention) said was cloud, but in actual fact was vulcano dust.

All engines stopped, and I believe that after loosing 20,000 ft (as high as a Tornado can get), they were able to get restarts (Flt Ops Officers).

Aircraft upon arrival at Perth (RAAF base somewhere near there), required all four engines to be changed (regular feature of SA charters)

Does anyone have a copy of the CVR of this incident.

Thanks and regards

Col Tigwell

[A2QFI]

http://www.ifalpa.org/sab/06SAB008.pdf

[Paul Wilson]

The Website of the Captaion of BA 009 http://www.ericmoody.com/
He may have a copy, although it is rare for CVR tapes to be in the public domain, the continued willingness of crews to allow the use of CVRs is contingent on them being used for accident investigation and not being widely posted to satisfy idle curiosity. If you have a genuine reason for needing the CVR, I imagine the AAIB or CAA would oblige, but it would need to be a very good reason.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

And all these years I though the Military bit was the fact that the balding gent in seat 31A had been a Corporal in the RAF!

Serious now.. I had the pleasure of flying with Eric Moody not too long after the said event. When I entered the cockpit I introduced myself and asked if he was the expert on volcanoes. The reply can't be printed but it was a smashing ride! Great character all-round.

[airborne_artist]

In 1988 (3 yrs before GW1)

The incident was in 1982 (the year of the Falklands War) and the aircraft was in the Southern Hemisphere (where the Falklands are situated). So there :E

[scroggs]

When this 747 loosed all those engines, where did they end up? The storey [sic] has yet to be told!

[haltonapp]

Does an aircraft lose thrust from its engines or loose it! Spelling Tut! Tut!

[FOMere2eternity]

Does an aircraft lose thrust from its engines or loose it!

Strictly speaking halton, I believe you should have ended your question with a question mark. I would also suggest the first 'tut' does not need to be capitalised as 'Spelling' is not followed by a punctuation mark.

:E

[Brian Abraham]

Aircraft landed in Jakarta.

[zerozero]

When I entered the cockpit I introduced myself and asked if he was the expert on volcanoes. The reply can't be printed but it was a smashing ride! Great character all-round.

I saw him interviewed on TV and they asked him (naturally), "What was your reaction when the fourth engine stopped running?"

He sort of smirked and said, "I think I said something like, 'Golly gosh! We've lost the fourth engine!'"

":mad: -ing hell!"

:}

[PT6ER]

As the synapses clank closed, I seem to remember a TV program on said incident.

Don't they (they being crew and passangers) reunite occasionally under the name of the offending volcano followed by "gliding club".

There was an amusing part on the prog when one of the flight crew was issuing a mayday only to be asked if he had a problem by the local ATC. Years spent assuming mayday meant "I have a problem" went out the window....

[MVE]

Just read the log write up, shame us engineers didn't last longer!

[herkman]

Thank you all for your replies.

I am attempting to obtain a copy for the CRM course, that one of my friends runs in the RAAF.

If I offended some, by posting it in the wrong forum, I regret same.

However as it is a flying safe issue, felt that some within, may have heard it.

Regards

Col Tigwell

[JW411]

The F/E was ex-RAF if that helps.

[SinBin]

Not that I'm a spotter or anything, but said 747 is now in a scrap yard at Bournemouth airport, having had it's wings chopped off!! It should go to a museum!

[rhovsquared]

:D Wow, Paul Wilson great link man !!!

Captain Eric Barry,the Flight Engineer and First Officer, and Cabin Crew Really showed what CRM/SOP/ADM really means amazing and beautiful account. and what a great engine/ airframe combination the 747- 200/ Pratt and Whitney JT9D were/are.:ok: :ok: :ok:

Right up there with Al haynes and his crew on the DC-10 or Gimli Glider Boeing 767-200 and Air Transat A-330 :ok: :D :D :D :ok:

[Lostinspace]

Not that I'm a spotter or anything, but said 747 is now in a scrap yard at Bournemouth airport, having had it's wings chopped off!! It should go to a museum!

Said aircraft flying cargo with Air Atlanta

[Cornish Jack]

Herkman
You could try VAA Flight Crew Training at Horley. We used to use a video for volcanic ash avoidance which included a sequence of that incident. Eric Moody's closing description of turning finals into Jakarta standing up on the pedals so as to be able to see (just) out of the front and the total sense of relief when he realised they had made it was quite palpable, even at the remove of many years. The shots of the damage incurred on windscreens, engine intakes, leading edges etc. were pretty sobering!!:eek:

[LocoDriver]

A book was written on the incident' All four engines have failed' author is Betty Tootell, (from Auckland New Zealand.) a passenger on the flight.

It highlights the surperb effort of Captain Eric Moody, First Officer Roger Greaves, and their crew to re-start the 747's four engines.

The incident is known in this part of the world as the "jarkarta incident'.

It is a facinating read of the 1983 incident.
British airways can certainly take a bow for their crew training-especially
four engines-out drill!

I have a copy of the book( NOT for sale) anyone wanting more info, please PM me. I will try and locate some more copies, or even the author! as I live in the area.
Most passengers have apparently kept in touch.

Hope this helps.
:ok:

[Paul Wilson]

Many copies are available on amazon from about £15.00

[barit1]

Same thing happened to a brand-new KLM 747 (http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001213X29893&key=1)near ANC in 1989, with similar outcome.

Engines were CF6's by the way.

[flyblue]

Very good description of the incident in the book Emergency (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1840373938/026-4244145-9452431?v=glance&n=266239) by Stanley Stewart.

[Albert Driver]

For many years prior to the incident Eric had been in an icy dispute with BA about his seniority. (He spent some time with BEA before joining BOAC, the airlines merged to form BA.)

I would just have loved to have been in the Office the day news first arrived that a BA aircraft had survived this very near disaster through the skill and heroic action of the flight crew, when the Flight Ops Director said, "Good show! - and who was in command?" .:ok:

[GreatCircle]

My favourite quote from Eric Moody, describing the landing, as volcanic ash had scoured the windshields...

"It was like trying to navigate blindfold up a badger's arse"...

I hope I got that right!

Magic stuff...as well as the outstanding skills of Eric, Roger and Barry, the SEO who brought the flying ashtray down in one piece.

[iamorgan]

Oh for God's sake artist, do I have to spell it out?

In 1988 (3 yrs before GW1) I believe that a British Airways 747 (like the one used to get SF into Kuwait in GW1), was overflying Indonesa (well, Indonesia has a military and we sell them Hawks), when they flew through what their radar (military invention) said was cloud, but in actual fact was vulcano dust.

All engines stopped, and I believe that after loosing 20,000 ft (as high as a Tornado can get), they were able to get restarts (Flt Ops Officers).

Aircraft upon arrival at Perth (RAAF base somewhere near there), required all four engines to be changed (regular feature of SA charters)

Does anyone have a copy of the CVR of this incident.

Thanks and regards

Col Tigwell

The aircraft was flying from Kuala Lumpar to Perth (about five hours flight time) and flew into volcanic cloud. All four engines failed, the aircraft drifted below the cloud and re-started all four engines. The ATC told them to climb to 15,000 feet (terrain) but they re-entered the cloud, lost an engine and the captain bought them back to 12,000. They successfully landed BA009 at Jakarta on three engines and with very poor forward visibility due to damage to the windshield caused by the volcanic activity.

[wiggy]

Remind me again who was on the Flight Deck when they lost the donks..:}

[Matt Vinyl]

Quote "It highlights the surperb effort of Captain Eric Moody, First Officer Roger Greaves, and their crew to re-start the 747's four engines."

What a shame you didn't include the real hero of the incident; AKA the Flight Engineer.
I reckon that if the aircraft had been a 'modern' Airbus, that doesn't allow you to break the rules, the outcome would have been ......................:{
No; I'm not a flight Engineer, but I was brought up on aircraft with them and I mourn their passing.

[Hand Solo]

I reckon that if the aircraft had been a 'modern' Airbus, that doesn't allow you to break the rules, the outcome would have been ......................

Interesting theory. What rules do you think they'd have had to break on an Airbus to achieve the same outcome?

[Hand Solo]

Give em a clue wiggy. Only two of the three flight crew were present.......

[Big Kahuna Burger]

Oh come on guys you dont wont to ruin the mans reputation with what are mere facts do you...? :}

[Oldy]

[quote=Matt Vinyl]Quote "It highlights the surperb effort of Captain Eric Moody, First Officer Roger Greaves, and their crew to re-start the 747's four engines."

What a shame you didn't include the real hero of the incident; AKA the Flight Engineer.

For the reference the SFE's name is Barry Townley-Freeman.

Sorry for the thread creep.

[G-DAVE]

Said aircraft flying cargo with Air Atlanta

Nope, as said before, the actual aircraft is indeed at Bournemouth airport. Parked at EAL. Just completed my MCC course at EAL and my instructor pointed it out.

Wings and engine are indeed gone.

The Captain actually lived only a few miles at the time from where I do now, hopefully something in the water round these parts! :}

[Merlins Magic]

Can someone tell me how to attach a pdf to a thread. I have a 5 page report from a safety magazine that gives all the details of the said 'Galunggung Incident'.

[Smashorange]

I am involved in producing a documentary on this incident, and I would love to see if anyone has seen any photos of teh aircraft after it landed. Apparently all paint, or most of it was scraped from the fuselage, adn many of the formard looking windows were made opaque from the ash cloud.

Has anyone actually seen video or still photos of the aircraft after it landed?

Many Thanks,
Dean Perlmutter

[stilton]

No question , it was a brilliant performance from the crew.

However, this was a Rolls Royce powered aircraft.

[theskyboy]

Air Disaster: Volume 2 by Macarthur Job has a good description of the incident from both the flight deck and inside the passenger cabin, as well as several photos and technical drawings.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Air-Disaster-Vol-Macarthur-Job/dp/1875671196/sr=1-4/qid=1157791480/ref=sr_1_4/202-9226395-8806240?ie=UTF8&s=books

:ok:

[Cornish Jack]

Part of our introductory and recurrent training on the 47-400 et al was a video titled something like "Avoiding volcanic ash". It contained a reconstruction of the incident including an interview with Eric Moody and video, taken after arrival in Jakarta, of the damage incurred. Very sobering!!:eek:

[Smashorange]

Thanks! - Do you know who made the video, or what course you were on where? Just anything to point me in the right direction to find this footage.
Thanks,
Dean

[Cornish Jack]

I was tech instructing at VAA at the time. Memory,(fallible!!) tells me that it was titled 'Avoiding Volcanic Ash', possibly produced by the FAA.
It might be worth your while contacting Virgin Flight CrewTraining at Horley. I'm sure that they would be able to point you towards the source.
Alternatively, a PM to Scroggs on this forum might provide the info.

[Smashorange]

Thanks! We have that video now. Funny enough, it has no images of that particular incident. It seems no one tokk any actual pictures of the plane ("The City of Edinburgh") after it manded.
Cheers, Dean

[Cornish Jack]

Hmmm - that's odd. The video we used quite definitely had a sequence which included an interview with Eric Moody. There was a series of shots of the damage to the aircraft including the windscreens and engine intakes and blades.
Perhaps yours is a different version?

[4PON4PIN]

Hi CJ
Am still showing the vid entitled Volcanic Ash Avoidance to all our new-hire. Think I could recite the narrative by rote!! Trust you're well old bean.

FYI, video produced by:
Boeing
Customer Training and Flight Operations Support
PO Box 3707, MS 2T-82
Seattle
WA 98124-2207 USA
Tele: 206-544-5445
Fax 206-544-5816

Numbers may be a bit out of date but worth a try:
vid is 33 mins 911202 PAL

Hope this helps

[Cornish Jack]

G'day, ducky!:p
Still hoping to do an 'old boy's' visit - sometime soon.
Thanks for passing on the info.
Best wishes to all at the factory:ok:

[tyke65]

My reply ref CVR seems to have got lost.

[john_tullamarine]

Tyke65,

Can't recall seeing it. However, be aware that the site has a couple of changes in place recently which put a delay in new threads and posts by new members appearing .. so that may have had something to do with it.

[tyke65]

My reply ref CVR hasn't appeared but my follow-up has. What I originally said was that there was no copy or print-out of the CVR recording. It was not switched off after the flight (there was no reason or procedure for doing this) and all that was on the tape was some chattering and giggling stewardesses recorded the next day.

[LordLucan]

Oh dear. I think I'm going to upset a lot of you guys here. But I'm going to say my piece anyway.

I just watched a program on National Geographic about this flight. At the very beginning of the problem, before any engines failed, I asked myself "why doesn't the captain fly lower?"

The program had said nothing about volcanic ash at that time, so I didn't know what was causing the problem, only that at their height and heading they had a problem and it was pretty obvious to me it was atmospheric. So why didn't the captain change direction or height to get into clean air?

Later, in the interview that the captain gave, he kept saying how the plane didn't react the way it did in the simulator! It was as if the captain couldn't think for himself and could only do what he was trained to do using the simulator.

I'm sorry if this post sounds so critical, but the flight crew could have avoided this problem by changing direction and/or height sooner. All this praise and heroic type comments seem completely misplaced to me.

[Contacttower]

I was watching that programme as well and I think your comment is a little unfair:

Firstly the Captain wasn't in the cockpit when the ash was first observed, the FO and FE got im back in ASAP. When he did get back in there was nothing on the weather radar and they had no idea what it was. They thought it might be St Elmo's fire and that to be fair does not have a history of making all the engines stop. Strange as it may seem this had never been practiced in the simulator before and when the Captain talked about the plane not responding like the simulator he was only emphasising the strange nature of the situation. The time between the Captain returning to the flight deck and the engines quitting was very short and when it first appeared there was no evidence of it having an effect on the plane. Climb/descend or change heading? They had no idea of the extent of this, blindly changing course- remember there was nothing on radar - might not have been the best thing to do. I rather doubt any other crew would have reacted differently.

[LordLucan]

I understand your point of view. It is possible that the representation of the effect of the volcanic ash on the windscreen made it obvious to the viewers of the program that it was something in the atmosphere causing the problem. In the program it looked like what you see when driving fast in a snow storm, so that is why I immediately thought they should change course or drop beneath it. Maybe in the real event the crew didn't think it was in the atmosphere.
Also, the program does tend to drag out these incidents in minute detail making it appear that a lot of time is passing, but I was certainly getting quite agitated while they kept on flying straight into this stuff. I know it was only a program, but the effects shown were quite dramatic and I was getting quite absorbed by the program, and keen to find out what could be causing the problem.
And then when the cause was stated as a cloud of volcanic ash, I thought if they'd just changed course or height sooner, the problem may not have been so bad. It was as if the crew were mesmerised by the weird effects and more keen to determine the cause of them than to try to fly around it.

[bfd777]

NASA's DC-8 had an encounter with an "ash cloud" a few years back. Engines kept on turning but they had to overhaul them shortly after.:}

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/pdf/88751main_H-2511.pdf

[Cornish Jack]

Just seen Lord Lucan's nonsense. Hmmm!!
From the perspective of an armchair AND with that most helpful of intelligence aids, hindsight(!!), it's quite easy to spout such drivel. Perhaps LL has the intuitive ability to immediately analyse each incident which involves him(or her) and instantly react with unerring accuracy but the rest of us mortals have to do our best with 'airmanship' - an art/skill which depends on EXPERIENCE. Eric Moody was faced with a totally unprecedented situation - something akin to the Sioux City DC10 in many ways - and he, and his crew, responded with a mixture of determination, application and quick thinking to produce a brilliant outcome which could very easily, otherwise, have been a total tragedy. There is NO sim scenario which would require STANDING on the rudder pedals for the approach and landing in order to be able to see through a small portion of an almost totally obscured windscreen, never mind engines which had become distinctly secondhand. That sims do not truly represent emergency conditions was tellingly demonstrated by the United crew who lost an engine on departure and reported that the experience was UTTERLY UNLIKE any sim EFATO session. Sims are excellent PROCEDURE trainers whether that be normal or abnormal. What they are not, is a totally accurate representation of real-life emergency situations, even if it's only the absence of the 'half crown/sixpence' syndrome!!
Eric Moody and crew did a remarkable job that night. He used his accumulation of acquired skills (airmanship) for their proper purpose and (as I am personally aware) he continued to gather more of such relevant experience in his subsequent career.
LL's viewpoint, as expressed, would seem to indicate a need for a similar enthusiasm for experience-based education.

[LordLucan]

Just seen Lord Lucan's nonsense. Hmmm!!
From the perspective of an armchair AND with that most helpful of intelligence aids, hindsight(!!), it's quite easy to spout such drivel.
As I said in my original post, I thought my views would up set a few people. :rolleyes:
Perhaps LL has the intuitive ability to immediately analyse each incident which involves him(or her) and instantly react with unerring accuracy As I said in my second post, "the representation of the effect of the volcanic ash on the windscreen made it obvious to the viewers of the program that it was something in the atmosphere causing the problem".
It seemed pretty obvious to me that they were flying INTO something, even if the radar didn't show anything. The crew appeared to be more interested in the effects caused by the ash then in getting the h3ll out of there and into clean air.
The captain showed too much reliance on instruments and simulator training and not enough "thinking out of the box".
but the rest of us mortals have to do our best with 'airmanship' - an art/skill which depends on EXPERIENCE. Eric Moody was faced with a totally unprecedented situation - something akin to the Sioux City DC10 in many ways - and he, and his crew, responded with a mixture of determination, application and quick thinking to produce a brilliant outcome which could very easily, otherwise, have been a total tragedy.
I totally agree they that did an excellent job getting the plane down safely once they'd decided to turn around and reduce height. But this action also got them into clean air which allowed three engines to restart and keep working so that they could land.
There is NO sim scenario which would require STANDING on the rudder pedals for the approach and landing in order to be able to see through a small portion of an almost totally obscured windscreen, never mind engines which had become distinctly secondhand.
I agree, nice landing with impaired visibility, but lets not get distracted from my main point of discussion - how they got into that situation.
That sims do not truly represent emergency conditions was tellingly demonstrated by the United crew who lost an engine on departure and reported that the experience was UTTERLY UNLIKE any sim EFATO session. Sims are excellent PROCEDURE trainers whether that be normal or abnormal. What they are not, is a totally accurate representation of real-life emergency situations, even if it's only the absence of the 'half crown/sixpence' syndrome!!
In his interview in the program, Eric Moody came across as someone without too much imagination and who relied far too much on what his instruments were telling him and on his simulator training. Anything outside of that experience and he didn't know what to do.
Eric Moody and crew did a remarkable job that night. He used his accumulation of acquired skills (airmanship) for their proper purpose and (as I am personally aware) he continued to gather more of such relevant experience in his subsequent career.
I recognise the excellent job he did in getting the plane down safely. But I am saying that if he'd changed course or height earlier he may not have even lost an engine. By flying straight into what ever was causing the problem, he made the situation worse.
His excellent landing with impaired vision appears to be given too much emphasis rather than the fact that he didn't have to get into that situation in the first place.
Maybe the program made it too easy for the viewers to guess what was happening to the plane. I hope you get to see it. You may want to criticise the program rather than my views that are as a direct result of seeing the information presented by the program.
LL's viewpoint, as expressed, would seem to indicate a need for a similar enthusiasm for experience-based education.

[4PON4PIN]

There you go CJ. Just shows how much you know!!!:)
Is there a village bereft of something..... (or someone)?
What about dropping by sometime soon?

[Cornish Jack]

4PON4PIN
Delicately put, as ever, matey!!
I fully agree with your village analogy - that, or the 'lighthouse in the desert' syndrome!!
However, one supposes that we should consider ourselves lucky to have been given the benefit of such an incisive assessment of the 'proper' actions when faced with unprecedented conditions. Either that, or gain a more accurate insight into what ACTUALLY happened by availing ourselves of the brilliance of National Geographic's production team. Unfortunately, we lesser mortals have to make do with the FACTS - they do have a nasty habit of interfering with a good story!!:ugh::ugh::ugh:
Keep promising myself an 'old boys' visit and will do so - but am into 24/6 employment next 14 days so keep the coffee warm!!
Regards to all

[Contacttower]

Despite having watched the programme I still think they did a good job.

[xetroV]

LordLucan would be a lousy accident investigator, being so obviously blinded by hindsight bias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindsight_bias).

[tyke65]

Perhaps LordLucan's choice of user name reflects his personality. I can well imagine Lord King's reaction if, on seeing a few lights that he had never seen before, the Captain had turned around. Where would he have gone then? What would he have done then? How do you say to the passengers 'I'm a bit frightened so I'm taking you back to KL'? LordLucan appears to be living in the world of Microsoft Flight Simulator rather than the real world of aviation.
They didn't decide to lose height. It's something that happens automatically when the engines quit.
No one stood on the rudder pedals for landing - there isn't room on the flight deck for anyone over the height of about four feet to stand up in the area of the pilot's seat and the captain would have had to unfasten his safety harness to stand up. That would have meant landing in what can only be described as 'extreme circumstances' with no safety harness on. No way! It didn't happen.