Tayside FIs now wearing stripes

[Mr R Sole]

Popped into Dundee and Glenrothes this afternoon and had to do a few double takes at Tayside FIs now wearing Gold Bars. Made me in my t-shirt and shorts look very relaxed when instructing, :} but it was 25C! What brought the change in uniform? Looks a bit OTT for a flying club that always seems to have a friendly and relaxed atmosphere!

I spotted 3 bars and one chap with 1 bar? Any significance?

[Speed Twelve]

The bars thing has been on/off for years. I started instructing at Tayside in 2001, and all instructors were issued with Tayside instructor's wings. Only one of the guys actually wore his (wasn't me) and LF wasn't insistent about the rest of us sticking them on.

One or two of the instructors voluntarily began to wear bars at this time. The company line was that either everyone did or everyone didn't. I wasn't a fan of the idea, was of the opinion that once I started flying something that ran on Avtur and cruised at FL400 then I deserved to wear them (funnily enough, when I DID eventually start flying one of those neither the skipper nor I wore wings or bars.... He reckoned it attracted too much attention in airports from people stopping you to ask why their flight was delayed/cancelled/where their luggage was etc.)

Anyway, I can only assume that the new uniform at Glenrothes must be some part of the new management's plan to 'de-militarise' the place after their dis-satisfaction at the 'overly-macho and militaristic atmosphere' that myself and the other 2001-2004 lads apparently instilled at Fife. Encouraging the correct ethos in MoD Flying Scholarship cadets anyone? Apparently not compatible with the post-LF regime...

[Blackshift]

For those of you who would like to impress the girls on the checkout at Tescos or whatever, plenty of vacancies there apparently. :ugh:

[Computer says NO!]

Mr R Sole, I do hope you are joking!! :eek:

Whatever next, I would be embarrased to be walking about in stripes, then climb into a little C152 to go flying!!!

Come on boys, get a grip, its a flying school not an airline.:rolleyes:

[Blackshift]

Could be worse : there could be a non-instructor PPL boss knocking around sporting 4 bars.

... come to think of it, there isn't is there?

[Mr R Sole]

No joke... all true!

[Speed Twelve]

Never quite understood the attraction of strutting around a flying club dressed like a general in the Bolivian Army.

As for doing it as a PPL, I reckon there'd need to be some deep-seated psychological feeling of social inadequacy going on there... :}

[Bucket]

I think its all about creating the correct sense of occasion for the circumstances. I agree that a flying CLUB and all the relaxed and informal associations with the word club suggest that gold bars, shirt and tie and knive edge creases are a bit over the top though nonetheless very smart. But take it up a notch to a flying school and the inference is that at this level the premises are often larger, slicker, smarter, better equipped and perhaps handling advanced and/or cpl training. The percieved need to create a more professional atmosphere does justify a more formal atire. Having worked as an FI myself in a commercial flying training college training CPL/ATPL students I can see the logic but we all wore three bars. The flight managers wore four; a little bit OTT for those amongst them who never had any previous airline or charter experience. However the rational was merely to visually designate management from the coal face workers.

For club staff I think chinos and a polo shirt is more than satisfactory and relaxed. ;)

[Speed Twelve]

Bucket

Agree entirely. I work as an instructor in the mil, albeit as a civvy contractor, but we're still expected to maintain the same standards of dress, appearance and conduct as our serving mil colleagues otherwise 'military ethos' breaks down. During my mil QFI-equivalent conversion course I had to wear a plain green gro-bag; only after I had passed with CFS was I then 'worthy' of the eppaulette slides and name 'n' wings patch for the flying suit.

I agree that 'airline dress' is appropriate for commercial flying schools, but when the '4-bars' frenzy starts at trial-lesson C152 level it does become a bit excessive. I once knew a 'CFI' with the whole gold bars thing who had been instructing a handful of months with all of 200 hundred and something hours under his belt... And as for going to Tescos dressed like that after work....

Incidentally when I was doing the PPL-instructor thing I wore white shirt, black tie, black trousers and that was it. (Well, shreddies, socks and shoes as well I suppose...)

Like the company polo shirt and chinos idea.

[duir]

As an instrucor I have worn the white shirt, tie and black pants when working for one school and have worn jeans and t-shirt when instructing for club. I have to say I felt much more relaxed in jeans and the loose t-shirt really helped with the scan. Interestingly the school I did the CPL/IR at had a mixture of pilot shirt/slacks/casual shirt/jeans and beer stained t-shirt. Each one delivered top quality in their own way and I think the delivery is far more important than the image. As for wearing gold bars, well that's just silly isn't it? :8

[DFC]

Reading this along with the recent lengthy to wear a tie or not discussion, I think that there must be something wrong with people who get so upset over what someone else wears.

Surely there is a mental health issue with having such an obsession with other people's attire. No way someone with such an issue should ever be left in charge of anything other than a charity clothes shop.......wher they can discuss and sniff at other peoples clothes as much as they like.

:)

It is the same as the people in battered fiat 127s complaining about people who drive BMWs.

Get a life.

Regards,

DFC

[Johe02]

Well said DFC. .

I think you can spot a cowboy (or a real pro) at 20 paces. . .whatever they are wearing!

[Blackshift]

DFC,

If the issue was simply "other peoples attire" you would of course be quite right.

However the issue here has to do with the displaying of badges denoting rank, authority or experience - and more specifically when this is laughably inappropriate, as in the case of a non-professional, non-instructor boss knocking about with 4 bars with an instructor/examiner in the same outfit only meriting 3.

I don't mind if you want to drive a big fast high performance car, but I reserve the right to be annoyed if you use blue-flashing lights to which you are not entitled to get me out of your way.

Please remember that the issue is not just about others, but also about what WE may be required or expected to wear - and this may occasionally be a source of some embarrasment to certain individuals who are perhaps naturally a tad more modest in the bling department..

[RVR800]

.... I always think that the Stagecoach crews are well presented.

You can't beat a nice ironed white shirt

[P.Pilcher]

Many years ago when a PPL instructor, I was having a drink in the club bar after flying one evening and heard the whine of four RR darts as a British Midland Viscount arrived for it's nightstop. Shortly afterwards the crew appeared thinking of a "swift one or two" before the crew bus picked them up to take them back to Castle Donnington. I was the only member in our bar as the entire crew: three hosties, captain, training captain and first officer entered the bar and requested my consent for them to have a drink. This was naturally rapidly granted, but I noted that as they passed the bar door, all epauletts were swiftly and quietly removed. We all enjoyed an excellent evening (because the crew bus got lost).
It's something I have never forgotton and always followed the example when I really had earned my four stripes.

P.P.

[Speed Twelve]

Stewartflyer

Name badges been in use for instructors at Tayside for years. Also, at no point did anyone imply an 'unqualified' member of staff there was wearing bars, 4 or otherwise. Don't understand where you get that idea from? Which thread was it you were referring to, obviously wasn't this one...

Contrary to popular belief, Tayside was a professionally-run flying training school long before the current entourage established themselves at Fife. I can remember when TA were an IR training school the first time round. I did virtually all my flying training there, including RAF Flying Scholarship, and worked as an instructor for 3 happy years at Fife. I worked with some very professional people at Fife prior to the 2004 takeover.

[DFC]

However the issue here has to do with the displaying of badges denoting rank, authority or experience - and more specifically when this is laughably inappropriate, as in the case of a non-professional, non-instructor boss knocking about with 4 bars with an instructor/examiner in the same outfit only meriting 3.

OK. Do I understand that correctly - The Boss wears something that could indicate to the public that he out-ranks you and you do not like the idea.

Oh yea,

I must tell all those juniour Captains that I don't like them wearing 4 stripes when I fly with them because a member of the public might not recognise that I am more senior, am an examiner and am their boss.

For Gods sake, a severe a case of inferiority / wannabe seniority complex I have never seen before.

Definitely not good airline material......too many people wearing stripes! :)

Regards,

DFC

[DB6]

Stewartflyer has it absolutely right. Tayside is one of the best FTO's I have come across and with the move back into commercial training up to frozen ATPL it is not out of place to adopt a more professional approach. Do you complain when you see stripes on the shoulder of an instructor at Oxford or Jerez? I do part-time stuff there so don't wear bars but I do find it useful in identifying instructors I may not have met before so I can only assume that your average punter off the street has similar feelings.
Speed Twelve old bean, read Blackshift's post 4 above your own for the 4 bar thing.

[Speed Twelve]

DB6

Hi chap. I have an idea who the '4-bar' is that Blackshift has posted about, having discussed the person in question with him in the past. There is no connection whatsoever with Tayside here. Incidentally, I did agree with the 'professional dress' approach to commercial flying training schools. I consider it the equivalent of instilling 'military ethos' at DEFTS/JEFTS by appropriate dress/attitude which as an ex-JEFTS man I know you appreciate.

DFC

I think the point here is not 'you've got more bars than me', but rather that we end up at the point where if people decide to randomly allocate themselves lots of bars, wings, flashing lights etc. it makes the entire concept somewhat worthless. Incidentally, I've known Blackshift for a number of years and he's got a pretty wise head on his shoulders. He certainly uses a lot of words in the pub that I don't understand...:}

[Blackshift]

Flippin Eck! :rolleyes:

I have many fond memories of Glenrothes, where I worked for a few years before resigning at the same time as other instructors due to the attitude of the new management at the time - one example being their publication in the club newsletter of their intention to instill a "more professional attitude" amongst their instructors by introducing a new uniform.

Until this point myself the other guys had always adhered to a dress code of white shirt, black tie and shoes etc and had no had reason to believe that our professionalism was in question.

We were also subjected to the interesting and novel experience of being inappropriatly "advised" about our flying by a non-professional.

Just a reminder of my first words on the item which is causing so many people a problem here :-

Could be worse : there could be a non-instructor PPL boss knocking around sporting 4 bars.

... come to think of it, there isn't is there?

Although this is not so mythical a beast as many might think, I have no current knowledge of such matters at Glenrothes any more - hence the question mark.

Nevertheless I am subjected to the following rant by DFC :-

For Gods sake, a severe a case of inferiority / wannabe seniority complex I have never seen before.

Definitely not good airline material......too many people wearing stripes!

... well you will no doubt be glad to hear that I have never applied to an airline and have no intention of doing so in the foreseeable future. As it happens it's not exactly my cup of tea, although I'm sure you are very happy there.

Speedy,
Thanks for that mate, although you really are too modest.

[NorthSouth]

However the issue here has to do with the displaying of badges denoting rank, authority or experience - and more specifically when this is laughably inappropriate, as in the case of a non-professional, non-instructor boss knocking about with 4 bars with an instructor/examiner in the same outfit only meriting 3BS, I appreciate this gives you gas pains but I have worked in just such an outfit for five years, sometimes PPL boss wears stripes when on ops duty (I've never counted how many), some instructors wear some stripes (I've never counted how many) and I have never worn any stripes nor a tie ever and I'm the longest serving instructor in the place. Issue? I don't fink so.
NS

[Blackshift]

Gas pains my ar$e!

I get a good laugh when I hear about an instructor spotted in a trendy cafe sporting full regalia on a day he isn't even flying.

As it happens I am also the longest served instructor where I am now and wear whatever I like, as does everyone else including the CFI. We also have what is possibly the lowest rate of instructor turnover in the country.

The ultimate boss is a PPL who has earned respect for dealing with the business side of things without interfering with flight training issues, whilst conferring with the CFI where these things overlap and deferring to him where they don't.

Our collective aversion to tinsel, scrambled-egg and ceremonial-swords is part of our mission plan, and so far it has proved to be a very successful strategy all round.

Whereas I entirely accept that this approach might not be the most appropriate for dealing with a CPL/IR training environment, our feedback indicates that many prospective PPL's can be put off, or even slightly intimidated by all this militaristic sartorial palaver.

I wouldn't be at all happy if the boss decided we were to go down the uniform route, and if he started wearing 4-bars I'd probably be off.

Sorry if that makes me in any way overly sensitive.

However, NS, I'm a bit concerned about your powers of observation : semiotics an important aspect of human behavior and it might be worthwhile paying more attention to the specific currency of signs and symbols which those around you chose to display in order to communicate their status.

It could be that you are being a tad disingenuous here though, and that you are essentially in agreement that such a display - which it is significant that you chose to resist as a means of self-expression - is essentially futile, having been pretty much bankrupted by inappropriate use in the manner sugested by Speedy above.

For my own part, be assured that such matters are a rich source of amusement rather than gastric discomfort.

[NorthSouth]

However, NS, I'm a bit concerned about your powers of observation : semiotics an important aspect of human behavior and it might be worthwhile paying more attention to the specific currency of signs and symbols which those around you chose to display in order to communicate their status.Ah, I see my message didn't get through. It's not that I am lacking in powers of observation; it's just that, unlike you, I don't bother about such incidentals, I just get on with the job.
NS

[Blackshift]

... or more accurately : unlike your colleagues.

'Cos not bothering about such incidentals and getting on with the job is the prevailing culture where I work, but not where you do apparently.

As for taking the bother to have a chat about such matters, were both guilty of that - however I hope it's as entertaining for you as it is for me!

[NorthSouth]

Well you seem to know more about where I work and the situation there than I do so of course I defer to you. Like I said I just instruct so I leave it to people in other flying schools to do more important things like tell me what I ought to be seeing/thinking/doing in the spare time between flights.
NS
PS: you aren't by any chance an ex-instructor at the establishment mentioned in the thread title are you?

[Blackshift]

To be perfectly honest I'm now as concerned about your attention span and reading comprehension skills as I am about your powers of observation.

I am very surprised, and slightly disappointed, that you have not worked out the answer to that question, although it is possible that once again you are being slightly disingenuous - I'm pretty sure I figured out who you were a long time ago after some exchanges with you on a previous thread.

I'm sure you are a fine bloke, and it does you credit that you are taking the trouble to stick up for your colleagues in this manner. However, I feel that your actions in rejecting such inane blingery about your own person are more convincing than your words.

It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that I might be expected to don such insignia to work myself at some point, but if anyone ever finds me sporting such nonsense in the pub I promise to immediately remove the offending items and buy them a drink.

As I have already indicated, as far as I am concerned this thread amounts to little more than a piece of self-indulgent entertainment with the added piquancy of a little Schadenfreude, which those who know me will hopefully understand and forgive me for.

And if you or anyone else still wishes to take offence at anything I have said here, you probably deserve it: Gerrit right upye!

[Mr R Sole]

Gee Whiz... Storm in a teacup or what???

My initial post was light-hearted bit it seems as if nowadays light-hearted comments are treated a bit too seriously on PPRuNe.

When thinking about this situation though, the atmosphere for PPL instruction should be professional yet as relaxed as possible. Don't you think the sight of gold bars might in the eyes of the PPL student might make things more serious and formal than is needed. After all a PPL student is learning to fly for a hobby!

[Uncle Ginsters]

Gents (I think),
It seems that this whole thread is getting a little tangential. The initial post was asking the opinions of Tayside for wearing insignia on their uniform. IMHO (as a current RAF QFI) the teaching of flying goes much deeper than a gold bar. I do have some recent knowledge of Tayside at Fife and they appear to be a thoroughly professional outfit. If i was to walk in there as a Gift-Voucher-first-time-flyer, probably not knowing what to expect, that initial image would instill some confidence in me.

It is then up to the manner and ability of the individual FI to show the relaxed YET professional side of their flying. This, in turn could guide that students entire outlook on flying and, again IMHO, produce a private flyier with a professional outlook for years to come, and probably someone less likely to bong a Red Arrows display, or the like - but that IS another thread!:bored:

In sum - It gives a good corporate image that others would do well to follow, without any of the pretentious bravado that seems to be floating around within certain organisations, heaven forbid, EVEN in 25C heat :\

Uncle G