Astraeus - article in Sunday Times ( Business section )

[Old King Coal]

This from todays <a href="http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/article/0,,9008-2002020563,00.html" target="_blank">Sunday Times</a> (in the Business section):

[quote]SUNDAY JANUARY 13 2002 - DOMINIC O’CONNELL

New UK airline ready for take-off


A GROUP of aviation industry veterans are close to launching a new British holiday airline, Astraeus.

Brad Burgess, the former managing director of the British Airways franchise carrier CityFlyer Express, will be chairman of the new company and Hugh Parry, an airline consultant, will be chief executive.

Other senior executives have been recruited from Go, the low-cost airline, and British World Airlines, the Southend-based company that went into receivership last month.

Astraeus will operate from this March, with three Boeing 737s at Gatwick and two at Manchester.

Burgess said yesterday that the company was likely to announce venture-capital backing within weeks. He would not specify how much Astraeus intended to raise or name the institutions involved in talks.

The airline’s business will come mainly from Britain’s growing band of specialist holiday companies. About 85% of package holiday flights are on airlines owned by Britain’s big four holiday companies - Airtours, Thomson, JMC and First Choice.

Jonathan Hinkles, Astraeus’ commercial director, said small tour operators were loath to have customers flown to their destinations by larger rivals.

Burgess, who sold CityFlyer to BA two years ago for £75m, said he had taken the chairman’s role because of the timing of the launch.

"The situation now is very similar to when we launched CityFlyer at the tail end of the Gulf war. Aircraft are incredibly cheap and there is a hole in the market for this type of operation," he said.<hr></blockquote>

Blimey, I remember Brad & Hugh from AE days - they're both very smart boys - plus our own PPRuNe Hamrah is involved too. I must say that it sounds like quite a team !

...... 'and out of little acorns do mighty Oaks grow !'

[Hamrah]

Veteran ?????

Crikey, I certainly don't feel THAT old.

H

[evolante]

Here's the full management line-up (source ATI 14 January 2002)

Astraeus, which today applied for an air operator’s certificate (AOC) following an application last month to the UK CAA for a European Union operating licence, is to be led by chairman Brad Burgess - the former managing director of CityFlyer.

He is joined by CEO Hugh Parry who, until late last year, headed BWA parent company BWA Group. Parry is also a founding managing director of BA’s Middle East and central Asian specialist franchise partner British Mediterranean Airways.
Former BWA and CityFlyer executive Jonathan Hinkles will take on the role of commercial director, heading Astraeus’ sales and customer service divisions, while Capt John Mahon, who left UK low-fare carrier Go to join BWA early last year, will be flight operations director.
Other key personnel at Astraeus include finance director Marcus Manning - previously with BWA, CityFlyer, Air Europe and Virgin Atlantic - as well as deputy flight operations director Capt Mario Fulgoni and technical director Steve Hodgkiss.

[CrashDive]

Web site details available at: <a href="http://www.flyastraeus.com" target="_blank">http://www.flyastraeus.com</A>

And for those whose ISP's DNS's aren't as up to date as they might be, you can also reach the Astaeus webserver direct on: <a href="http://209.61.219.133" target="_blank">http://209.61.219.133</A>

[HugMonster]

Been busy, Crashy? <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Redline]

All you guys getting excited take a moment to look up the word duplicity and then take a moment before you go anywhere near these guys....

[CrashDive]

Redline - perhaps you'd like to fully explain just what it is that you are driving at ? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

That said, I'd suggest a (re)read of this first (though you'll need to LogOut) : <a href="http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=agree" target="_blank">You agree, through your use of this service</a> etc, i.e. be very sure of your facts before you launch in to print !

Ps. You were wrong about the <a href="http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=013434" target="_blank">B757</a>

[Sid's Stars]

Strange that similar warnings weren't given to those that had a go at the Guv, eh, Crashy? <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

"Vested interests" come to mind.

[CrashDive]

Sid, you can read into any of this what you will <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Ps. Following on - Redline can we expect you to embellish upon your comment above - or have you scuttled off and gone to ground ? Also, when you try to cover you tracks engage the old grey matter first, e.g. one could suppose that a post made in another forum two minutes prior to your one above, albeit from a different identity, but having a remarkably similar IP address (I've got the logs), might be misconstrued as having been made by one and the same person ?! I think you'll get my point.

[InFinRetirement]

As an old stager with what I might call a fair knowledge of the industry, I reckon an operation with Brad Burgess and a team like they have to control the store, you can be certain it will be a winner.

The detractors are, of course, green with envy!

[Jed A1]

No. The detractors are wondering how much ex BWA business the new outfit will pick up!

[CrashDive]

Hopefully all of it, and some extra stuff too ! ....... though I think it would be true to say that Astraeus have no desire to become involved with the previous BWA ABZ and / or turbo-prop business, e.g. might I direct you to go see the 'About Us' page on the web site.

Look BWA no longer exists - ITS GONE ! - and whilst it was a nice little company, staffed by nice people, there's no room for sentimentality. The fact is that its underlying financial position had (imho) been compromised many YEARS before, i.e. certainly well before the newest management team made a valiant effort to turn it around - and they were really doing quite well, till 911.
But it's this point which some folk are seemingly having great difficulty in understanding, i.e. that with millions of debt (poor capitalisation from a poor flotation), no assets (or that those that they had were overvalued long previously), and (post 911) little or no cash flow (which is a death knell to any business), what happened at BWA was inevitable; and remember that it was the BAA and BAe that initially pulled the rug out from under them (for various reasons), and all the other creditors then followed suite - and just where then was their good will ?! - but that's business.

The past is the past - let's look to the future, and a new start !

[Raw Data]

Not only is Crashdive absolutely right, but it is worth bearing in mind that many, many people stand to benefit from the new operation- it just requires a little patience to let the management team get things in place.

Also, from what I have been able to find out, the new management team are, to a man, well-respected in the industry.

BWA had been hanging on by its fingernails for a long time- it is not the fault of the new Astraeus team that the house of cards finally collapsed.

[moan_on]

All good stuff guys, but are there any jobs going ? <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[JB007]

And why in hells name would anyone have a go at someone for wanting to try and turn the industry around at the moment....this can only be a good thing surely.

Especially if that person is involved in the industry which I assume is the case otherwise they wouldn't be posting on PPRuNe !!!

Beats me....

Best of luck with it all guy's...

[beaver eager]

As a former Chairman of CityFlyer’s Flight Crew Committee and later the CityFlyer BALPA Company Council, I spent much time in usually frustrating negotiations with Mr. Burgess trying to improve the lot of the CityFlyer pilot. There were a few successes, but it is fair to say that it was usually a struggle to secure even the slightest improvement to our Ts & Cs. All of the major “gives” over the years being driven entirely by market forces, and the need to recruit/retain pilots, rather than any philanthropic leanings on the part of management team.

Having said that, they sure knew how to run an Airline and I would work for them again without hesitation were I not now comfortably employed as (effectively) a Direct Entry British Airways EuroGatwick Captain. My good fortune is due in significant part to the business acumen of CFE’s management team.

If FS&S goes badly for those of us newly appended to the bottom of the BA seniority list, Astraeus will be the first airline I’ll be applying to; job security is worth a lot and I’d trust Mr. Burgess to give me that at least.

I know you’ll be reading this Brad… Good luck to you: Even you probably need a bit of luck to see an Airline through its first couple of years. For the sake of the Industry, I hope you pull it off again.

PS. What was it you were saying two months ago about not missing work at all? <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
I guess the leasing cost of a 737 just got so cheap you couldn't hold back any longer!

[ 16 January 2002: Message edited by: beaver eager ]</p>

[Delta Wun-Wun]

At last some good news for a change.
Hamrah/Crash Dive and everyone else involved...GOOD LUCK! <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

[jolly green giant]

I too say good luck, but I want also to say that I think that Crashdive's comments re BWA are utterly insensitive. How dare you say that there's no room for sentimentality!!! <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> I bet you didn't have to take most of your kids toys back before X-Mas (if you have any). We all know that BWA has gone but there's no need to be so brutal, just cos you're alright Jack.

As for all the other posts which have been closed re info on BWA2, well this isn't the thread that this info should be broadcast on. It deserves it's own thread then those of us who might get a job there can find out where it's upto. I reckon it'd be different if the shoe were on the other foot and it was you or your administrative colleagues who were after info to get yourselves back into work!! The threads wouldn't get closed down or moved then!!!

[Honest Frank]

Here, here jolly green big one.
I'm rather saddened at writing this post cos now it'll get put back to the top of the board. Bet this doesn't get moved to Airlines, Airports and Routes......yawn......

[InFinRetirement]

Hey whoaaa back there JGG. You have to understand the demise of airlines to recognise that when banks pull plugs, airport operators slap liens on aircraft, when lessors take their aircraft back, when all the airline is left with is HUGE debts - sentimentality went straight out of the window! Gone, vanished, along with jobs and all else that made the airline tick. It has happened hundreds of times.

OK, so bosses feel sorry that it happened but that is as far as sentimentality goes. The boss lost his job too!

Crashdive was just being plain old realistic, just like he should be, and as a matter of fact how you should be.

There is no such thing as BWA2. Where did you design that one? You see, the reason the threads of BWA were withdrawn is that they were irrelvent - Astraeus IS relevent so post and read that one instead.

I am afraid your heart rules your head JGG, understandable, but you now need to welcome a new airline and rejoice. :)

[CrashDive]

Thanks for the support IFR, but as you can see from this (and those who know me) I'd much rather stand up and 'trade punches' for myself than hide behind a supposed cloak of anonymity - but that, I'm afraid to say, is just what some of my previous BWA colleagues have attempted in order to air various snide accusations and incorrect assumptions.

JGG, it might pay to remember that I too lost my job when BWA went tits up, and w.r.t. xmas, yes my two sons did go without (oh dear, what a pity, never mind), as did my wife (ditto), and me (ditto), and for the record I've not since received one cent from Her Majesties Government ( as a result of an admitted Dole Office screw up - but the Bank have been nice…. they've extend my overdraft ! ) and thus from 30 November 2001 there have been no (none, zip, nada, sweet fa, etc) contributions to my bank balance - so, and to paraphrase you, "I'm NOT alright Jack !" and sentimentality does not pay the bills ! …….. but hey, you never know what's around the corner.

Also, and let me spell it out for you, if some folks are able to pull off a BWA2 resurrection then all well and good, neigh, fabulous, wonderful, we'd be ecstatic, etc ………….

HOWEVER (and I'll bet you knew that was coming) - imho, a harsh commercial reality which you might like to bear in mind is that there are many BWA creditors (large and small) still out there and it might be fair to say that a BWA mk2 (especially if using the same BWA name) may have real trouble in getting hold of aircraft (e.g. one previous lessor had to spend over £1m to get the lien removed from their 737), to say nothing of fuel suppliers, engineering companies, etc - so don't be too surprised if they don't all rush out and greet you with open arms. Just a friendly thought to help you with your decision making w.r.t. the viability of a 'rescued' BWA - but all that is, of course, only imho.

Now to my knowledge no PPRuNe threads relating to BWA have been deleted since the collapse of the company - and just to set the record straight, those threads that were removed, pre-collapse, were done so only as part of a desperate rearguard action (by the PPRuNe moderators - me included - bolstered by insider knowledge of the true facts and position) to try and save BWA from some seriously damaging (and in many instances, incorrect) press, during what ultimately transpired to be the company's final death throws - and yeah, it might be seen as an unwarranted abusive of our PPRuNe privilege to have done so, but, well (and can somebody remind me of how many lost their jobs at BWA - a few hundred at least) we tried everything we could to keep the 'confidence' within the marketplace, i.e. desperate times call for desperate measures, but ultimately it was the 'hard-nosed' moneymen who were calling the shots - and we lost.

So JGG, ultimately everybody wishes you well in your venture, as I'm sure that you do for all the others out there who are trying to start afresh.

[Honest Frank]

Crash- so you'd rather stand up and "trade punches" for yourself than hide behind a supposed cloak of anonimity.
Ah!
Friday December 14th on the day your company goes bust. A staff meeting is called.
One question. Were you there or did you slip out the door before the meeting?

And with reference to other threads on BWA after their collapse. Out of 7 threads that either mentioned BWA in the title or were obviously linked to BWA; 3 have been locked, 2 have been moved, 1 has disappeared(thought I was seeing things to start with)and one has been left alone.

Now I know pprune is the moderators game but why not play it fairly eh?

[snooze_ya_lose]

I have no particular problem with moderators frantically pulling threads that might be damaging to their company; a very obvious ploy during the days leading up to the demise of BWA. Not that I really believe the hard decisions taken are based on what is read on PPRuNe.

However, what really gets me p*ssed is that those same moderators allow similarly damaging posts about other companies to stand unmolested. An obvious example of this is the current thread regarding Cabair on Wannabes- similar stuff has appeared many times on R&N. What this tells me is that if a moderators employer is in trouble, expect a torrent of censorship; if it's my employer though, tough luck!

I think the thing that gets many folks backs up is the perceived lack of any consistency in the moderation. Perhaps we shouldn't expect too much, after all it is done in peoples spare time. It would be wise of the moderators to take note of this and at least attempt to be consistent and fair to all.

Much as we are oft reminded that this is Dannys toy and there is no such thing as free speech, a consistent failure to be fair will, over time, undermine the credibility that PPRuNe currently enjoys.

Anyway, good luck to Astraeus, and all those ex-BWA still looking for a job. I've been there, I feel for you.

[scroggs]

Snooze,
sorry, bit off-thread, but you strayed into my territory there. The Cabair thread on Wannabes is being very closely watched, as you'll see from both WWW's and my posts. Questions about a business that holds or may receive a great deal of money from Ppruners are relevant, in my opinion, and, unless the speculation becomes spiteful or otherwise out of hand, it's our decision to let it stay. Incidentally, neither of us have, or have ever had, anything to do with this company.
You may well see inconsistencies in the running of different forums on Pprune. We are not paid, or trained, or linechecked, or refreshed, nor do we have an Ops Manual or SOPs. We are human. All we have is our own judgement, backed up by Danny's final caveat. Sorry about that, but that's how it is.
Best of luck to Astraeus; we need some good news in this industry!

[CrashDive]

Actually HF I wasn't there on the 14th Dec because, being privy to some inside knowledge as to what had gone on behind the scenes, plus having seen the same circumstances at other companies previous to BWA, (plus being owed a stack of leave - i.e. ALL of it), I knew that the inevitable had in fact occurred - and so just what was the point in turning up to hear a Jackanory of 'doom & gloom' against what was so evidently obvious ?! well at least to me, e.g.:

Q). Did your presence at the 14/12 meeting either make or have any influence on what happened next ?

A). No ! ...... all you were able to add was an extra body to the touchy feely numbers !

You see my point..... i.e. you were being sentimental, whilst I was being pragmatic.

And with regards to PPRuNe threads which pertain to BWA, to my knowledge they're all still there and on view, albeit that you purport that one is missing - but don't worry, if I can find it I will, if only to prove you wrong; so, would you like to offer any clues ? and futhermore, I both promise & swear to you that I have not either moved, closed, or deleted any BWA thread since the company's demise - i.e. just how plain / obvious can I make this ?!

[Capt PPRuNe]

Just to put a few points straight before I close this thread for 'wandering' too far off topic. All the threads about BWA after their collapse which were closed were closed by me.

If any of you have a bone to pick about that write to me. I closed the numerous threads about BWA because they were either not relevant to this forum and if you had bothered to see where they had actually moved to you would have seen that they were closed in this forum and moved to a more appropriate forum. As for any others, I closed them because there was already another thread on the same topic running.

I am sure most of you would like your topic to remain in this, the busiest forum on PPRuNe but I have to make a decision and if I think a topic should be in a different forum then I move it. I cannot spend all my spare time posting my reasons why.

All you complainers about topics being moved or deleted feel free to mail you complaints to a newspaper or magazine and see how many of them get published, never mind just moved elsewhere. Yep, its my trainset but we put the effort in to maintain this to the best of our abilities. Unfortunately some of you think that you have the right to use it for your own agendas.

If I decide the topic is right for this forum it stays. If I think it has run its course then I either close it and/or move it to a more relevant forum. There is no way I am letting anyone use this forum just to air their grievance against my moderators.

Feel free to write to me or complete the 10 second survey. You have a choice but do not accuse me or the moderators of their own agendas just because you didn't get your way on here.