OAT (Oxford) - the thread, reborn (Part XXVII)!

[Lord Flashart]

I'm considering doing my fATPL training with OATS after I get my PPL/150hrs done. Is the JOC (jet orientation course) worth doing - will it improve my airline job prospects or should I just stop at the CPL+MER+IR+MCC stage.

Hard hat on.

Flashart.

[microfilter]

If money is tight make sure you look around at other schools before choosing.

[Mercenary Pilot]

My advise would be, do your CPL/ME/IR and then apply to CTC.

[FougaMagister]

I asked (separately) a number of TREs/TRIs & Training Cpts I work with about doing a JOC earlier this year, and all of them replied that it didn't make any difference to either job prospects with their outfit (actually a 737 EFIS-equipped low-cost operator) or with respect to flying ability. They called it marketing hype on the part of the FTOs and recommended to save the cash for practice sim sessions when you have a confirmed interview; it seems more useful since you can then practice actual sim check ride profiles.

Cheers :cool:

[Lord Flashart]

Thanks for the replies,

Mercenary Pilot - are you saying I shouldn't do MCC - is this something that CTC cover?

Flashart

[dwshimoda]

The CTC scheme is an MCC with a bit more on top that can place you with an airline.

All the details are in the CTC thread.

[Mercenary Pilot]

Mercenary Pilot - are you saying I shouldn't do MCC - is this something that CTC cover?


Hi

Yeah the CTC scheme covers the MCC and is also a JOC. All the guys I know who went through CTC have been placed with an Airline.

A JOC on its own is pretty worthless, its doesn’t give you anything official and you certainly don’t need one to get you through a type rating. :ok:

[GerryFlyer]

Hello

Please can somebody advise what £60k actually gets you at Oxford, that you won't find at another school?

I understand two main factors are...

1. Oxford prides itself on professionalism

2. It has the links with the major airlines that are second-to-none

...but is the training that much better?

...and, if so, does that mean that other schools are falling short in some way?

Why is it that another school cannot raise the quality (or perception of such) to the level that the recruiting airlines obviously need AND keep it at a fair price?

I cannot help thinking that many trusting students are being ripped off by the country's 'apparent' no. 1 school.

Your comments please...

Gez

[Mercenary Pilot]

I cannot help thinking that many trusting students are being ripped off by the country's 'apparent' no. 1 school.

I cant see how its a rip-off, nobody forces students to go there. There are other integrated schools with close airline ties. FTE have just announced a link up with GB airways.

Yer' Pays yer' money, yer' take yer' choice. :ok:

[GerryFlyer]

Granted, it is your own decison...

...but , to a certain degree, you are forced to go there - as the job offers with the big airlines are orchestrated through Oxford

So, if you want a job, you need to pay the price - which I feel is unfair.

Gez

[ZH-127]

£60k is a decent amount to get you to ATPL frozen stage.

Check out the site, order the brochure (i did) and you see exactly what you get for your £60k.

[captwannabe]

Other FTOs have the same level of professionalism. They also have equally strong links with airlines. FTE, CTC, Cabair, etc. will train you to the same standard as OAT, if not better. Nobody forces students to go to OAT. Job offers with airlines are not orchestrated only through OAT, they are the same in most FTOs, with the exception of CTC who provide the best employment prospects. Would you not be happy flying in GA, small turboprop outfits, etc., if you couldn't get a job with the "big airlines"? It is still flying y'know. There is no guarantee that you will get to fly a jet straight off the bat. For £60k elsewhere (integrated or CTC) you get food and accomodation included with your training. OAT have an unnecessary JOC which adds to their price, and their accom. is a rip-off.

[Boing7117]

True. Nobody is forcing you to go to one FTO or another.
At OAT I was impressed with the facilities, the customer service, and the employment prospects - which from my perspective were comparably 'better' than other FTO's (looked at Cabair and FTE). For me, it was a logical choice.
I chose OAT after what I felt was careful consideration between the options available to me, the amount of money I had available and the likelihood of securing a job once I’ve completed training.
Would I be happy flying “small turboprop outfits”? I’d be happy flying paper aeroplanes, but my research has led me to the conclusion that the starting pay is likely to be higher in a ‘jet job’ than any other.
Should it really be all about money? No it shouldn’t. But realistically speaking, an investment such as the one I have just made concludes that I should be earning as much as possible to begin repayments of my hefty loan. After all, it is still flying!
Regardless of whichever of the three FTO’s I could have joined, I would be in the same financial predicament.
I realise I’ve shifted away from the original question – “What do you get for your money at Oxford”?
 I expect you quite probably get the same quality of training that you would at Cabair or FTE.
 I am led to believe (perhaps I was taken in by marketing spin too – but I regard myself as a fairly smart individual and I am certain I chose the best of the three) that my employment prospects are as high as they are ever likely to be by being at this particular flight school.
 I feel that the ground school tuition at OAT is more ‘taught’ than ‘self-taught’. Not that I’ve been spoon fed all my life – but I personally prefer a regular teaching programme – a lectured system followed by a bit of self-discipline and motivation getting you to consolidate and understand what you have been taught in your own time. I didn’t find this style of teaching to be at the same level at other FTE’s as OAT.
 I can’t say whether or not the JOC is a waste of money or not. Given that many airlines would want you to complete a sim-ride of some sort – 40 hours in a 737 simulator is likely to give you one hell of an edge against someone who is fresh out of multi-engine training. I know for a fact that if an airline asked me to demonstrate my skills in a 737 sim after 40 hours practice – I would have thought I’d be pretty good at it.
All in all – you may not get any more for your money than you would at any other FTO. It’s all about where you feel comfortable, where you feel you can bring out the best in yourself, and ultimately, where you think you’re most likely to secure a job.
I’m thrilled with my choice. And I’m entirely confident that I’ll stand a great chance of gaining employment on completion of the course.

[captwannabe]

How is that different to any other integrated FTO?

It costs more :rolleyes:

[chock2chock]

40 hours in a 737 simulator is likely to give you one hell of an edge against someone who is fresh out of multi-engine training. I know for a fact that if an airline asked me to demonstrate my skills in a 737 sim after 40 hours practice.

Not to belittle your choice, but 40 hours in the Oxford course means 20 MCC+20 JOC. which , from what I understand, could be done in just about any sim. The emphasis of this course is not for familarity with 737 specific operations but flying at jet speeds. The sim itself is just an FNPT II calibrated like a 737, not the type used for type ratings.

[Lucifer]

The sim itself is just an FNPT II calibrated like a 737, not the type used for type ratings.
I was under the impression that it was something other (better) than an FNPT II?

Someone who has used it can answer authoritatively.

[BillieBob]

I can assure you that the OAT device is qualified as no more than an FNPT2 (MCC) and handles like a generic twin jet - exactly as an FNPT2 should. A colleague who has flown it says that its handling qualities are not entirely unlike a B737 (or any other twin jet of a similar size, come to that). I believe that it is similar to the one that used to be at WMU, Battle Creek (a Frasca device with electric motion?) - if so, I too can vouch for the vagueness of its similarity to a real aeroplane.

Lucifer - you clearly know nothing of what you speak.

[Lucifer]

I do apologise - http://www.oxfordaviation.net/tour/tour-06.htm

I did clearly state that I was not sure below though...(before my edit)

[scroggs]

.. as the job offers with the big airlines are orchestrated through Oxford


Who told you that? Oxford? What a surprise!

That's a bit like Sainsburys telling you they're the only ones that sell decent turkeys at Christmas. Do you believe them, too?

Scroggs

[Elixir]

The Oxford 737 'sim' in in fact an FNPT2.

It is only an FNPT2 because the visuals aren't quite up to the level required for type rating sim and it doesn't have VNAV. This is why it couldn't be used for type ratings. In terms on handling qualities, I couldn't tell the difference between the OAT sim and the ones I flew on my 737 type rating - they handled just the same.

However, saying this, the sims and the actual aircraft do NOT feel the same! I found the sim good for learning procedures, SOP's and dealing with emergencies but it doesn't handle in the same way that the aircraft does - the 737 is much nicer!

Hope this helps.

[GerryFlyer]

Hi Scroggs

OK - it isn't only Oxford that gets the big deals...

...but it is definately limited to Cabair, Oxford or Jerez.

But, then again, I guess the airlines cannot be expected to continuously interview candidates - so popping over to an integrated school and being offered a list of 'promising' pilots from tutors who have known the students for twelve months or so is probably the safest option.

What I'd like to know, is how an older student/graduate goes about getting a job. Even Oxford struggles to place an older low hours fATPL.

Any thoughts?

[potkettleblack]

If £60k is the maximum amount that you have available to spend then my advice is to check and double check your sums and make sure that you go through the price lists at OAT with a fine toothed comb. Check out their forums and get a feel for what it is costing other people who are already there. Also ask how many hours on average they are taking to get through to give you a rough estimate. Treat it just as you would when pricing up a CPL or IR at any other FTO. Add on extra training hours for both the CPL and IR to your budget to be on the safe side bearing in mind the feedback you get from current students. There are loads of threads here on pprune to check on what costs you are likely to be hit with and if they are included in the headline figures etc eg: landing fees, fuel surcharges, 170a fees, uniform charges, positioning costs for doing CAA tests etc. Don't forget accomodation and of course beer money as well!

Last thing you want is to get 90% of the way through the course and be worrying about being able to find the cash to finish.

[ZH-127]

Got a close friend and former flight training buddy currently doing his APP F.O at OAT. Hes on the modular waypoint training programme doing it long-distance.

He gets a lot of dispensation on his flying hours due to being B-Cat at a VGS.

By doing it longdistance and waypoint hes managing to keep his current full time job and thus ease the financial costs of doing it.

[captwannabe]

[quote]but it is definately limited to Cabair, Oxford or Jerez[quote]

It's definitely not limited to FTE, Cabair, or OAT. What about CTC? What about modular students? They too get hired by "big airlines". When airlines go to integrated schools, they still interview the students. There is no guarantee, wherever you train, that you will get an airline job. It costs a lot more than £60k to train at OAT. Food, accomodation, and beer money all add up.

[Groundloop]

Got a close friend and former flight training buddy currently doing his APP F.O at OAT. Hes on the modular waypoint training programme doing it long-distance.


Confused here. APP is the name of OAT's integrated course, Waypoint the modular course. So he cannot be doing the APP via Waypoint.

[asuweb]

I do apologise - http://www.oxfordaviation.net/tour/tour-06.htm

It clearly states on the page that it is an FNPT sim.

Very true, APP Waypoint scheme doesn't exits!

[Felix Saddler]

Hi im considering doing a modular course with OAT but dont want to be sold by their brochure, I would like to hear from those who are presently there and are training modularly or have already been through it and can give me some structured info on it! What does the couse include? How much realistically is it? If there is anyone better and employment chances at the end?

Regards Felix.

[chock2chock]

FNPT/not FNPT trivia aside, The JOC that oxford offer is really just a cherry on the top of a well iced cake. The MCC is all you need full stop. I guess, to be better prepped for a sim assesment at an airline interview it may be a bonus, for alll you know, the sim assesment might not very well be in a 737! FTE's cheaper cource with accomodation icluded isalso another option, smaller class sizes nice weather etc. etc. Their JOC is at an extra cost and is done in a Buisness jet sim, the Hawker I believe...which is apparently programmed to handle like believe it or not.... like a 737!

If you are going integrated, don't do it to just 'put a check the box', yes you've done the course so you expect a job. Do it well. Like Kick ass and kiss some ;) (maybe) get good grades, and as many 1st time passes you can get. Then those "orchestrated" job offers may just come your way, or at least, a letter of recommendation from the CFI.

[Permafrost_ATPL]

One thing I would warn people about is doing Modular at OAT if you're not prepared to work very hard to get the first time passes at everything. They DO put forward some modular students to airlines, but it's not many of them and they all have near perfect CVs (as opposed to APP with OK CVs).

You could think that at the end of the day, even if OAT don't put you forward to airlines, you still have the advantage of the OAT name on your CV. Not so. Many airlines, FlyBe being one I know for fact, will not consider OAT graduates who are not recommended by OAT. So for the same CV, as far as grades/passes are concerned, you are better off NOT having done your flying at OAT if you don't have a recommendation from them.

Some might think this is fair enough, i.e. why should an airline give you an interview if OAT don't recommend you (i.e. you must be crap). But unless, like I said above, you have the PERFECT CV and have a fairly brown nose, you just won't be recommended (as modular). This is something to seriously think about since it's going to cost you a lot more to do modular at OAT.

On a slightly different topic, I'd like to point out that when trying to calculate how much flight school and possibly a TR will cost you (if you get a job offer where you have to pay for the TR - please DO NOT pay for a TR unless there is a job at the end of it), you must think about how much it will cost you NOT to be flying jets for a few years. Add an instructor rating, earning very little for a year or two, earning not so much on a turbo-prop for another couple of years, etc. And compare to paying 20k for a rating and earning jet salary for all those years... Not so simple, huh?

I am NOT saying taking a job where you have to pay for a TR is the only way to go. Far from it. A great deal of fun and experience is to be gained from instructing, t-prop, etc. Probably makes you a better pilot. But if you're just looking at numbers, do the maths properly!

Cheers,

P

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Take a look at my recent reply to thread http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=234167

Can't fault the training, very good. But whether modular OAT will give you a much better chance to land an airline job... not so sure! On the other hand you are very unlikely to land a jet job straight out of school without a school like OAT or the other biggies.

So if you're happy (most people are!) starting on twin piston or t-prop, I'm not sure spending the extra cash on a modular OAT course is a good idea.

P

[potkettleblack]

I would be wary of the instructional route. There are fewer and fewer employers who value your skills at instructing someone to fly a c152. In days gone by there was a clear and defined career path to the RHS of a TP or if you were incredibly lucky a jet once you had 1000 hours or so of circuit bashing. Now its not necessarily the case. As always there will be exceptions to the rule.

I think the main benefit instructing can give you is potential contacts. But this of course would only be true of the FTO's that were based at "biggish" airfields and those which have relationships with airlines/operators. Unfortunately most FTO's do not and although the promises of loads of hours and getting to instruct on the trusty club twin lures many a wannabee to teach, it can be a graveyard of false hope. There are many cases of instructors getting paid feable amounts and a pitiful 300 hours pa under their belts whilst relocating at their own expense to some far corner of the country with its own micro weather system which invariably includes heavy rainfall. In these cases you would be no better off than a wannabee who continues working earning a crust and keeps the hours ticking over through joining a group/hiring from a club/trips to the US or a combination of all of these.

[Permafrost_ATPL]

Yes, good point, the old instructing route is not what it used to be from what one hears. It's a real shame.

Based on my own experience and friend's, you will need some good networking to get your first job if you choose to go the modular route (unless you manage to get through CTC Wings selection or similar, but age might be a problem). I recommend jobs in Dispatching, Ops, etc. They pay badly but you'll meet training captains, chief pilots, ops directors, etc. That's what counts.

P

[Felix Saddler]

Don't you need to get your FATPL before you can get work with any operator, jet or turbo prop? if not how?

Kind Regards,

Felix

[Felix Saddler]

I was wondering, how difficult is the skills assessment at OAT before you can move onto the integrated course?

[balhambob]

dunno I was wondering the same

I just did the assessment at CAbair - found it pretty easy & it only takes half a day

OAT is over 2 days so I imagine it must be more testing than Cabair - would be interested to hear from someone who has done both?

[LeeH88]

Haha, I was wondering exactly the same aswell. Booking mine sometime this week for a couple of weeks time. You say CabAir was easy? Im not sure how easy it is to get a Prof.Studies Loan @ CabAir, if at all possible.

[c_jephcott]

I managed to do both assessments before finally deciding on OAT. Obviously, the first thing to say is that both assessments do have demanding elements. However, I would believe that OAT is more challenging to get into.

For Cranfield - the assessment takes about half a day and consists of the following:

Maths paper - 90 minutes - 30 questions. (sounds easy, but believe me, you do end up using the full 90 minutes)

Physics paper - 90 minutes - 30 questions

Pilapt testing (another 90 minutes or so!)

And a debrief/interview. Although this was not thorough, it did go over your results objectively.

For OAT, the assessment is on a much larger scale and takes two days. It consists of the following:

Compass Aptitude testing (90 minutes or so!)

Simulator ride on a Seneca-type IR Sim (Probably about 25 minutes, but flies by)

Team Exercises (two situations where you have to demonstrate the ability to work in a team)

Group discussions (two themes or so - 1 aviation related, one current affairs)

Interview (about 45 minutes)

and then finally a debrief where the decision is made.


I would say that in terms of assessing you, the OAT method is much more thorough than Cabair, as they examine several more key aspects.

Out of my groups from the assessment, everyone got into Cabair, and only 50% got into OAT. The other 50% were invited back in 6 months time for reassessment (although I later learnt that one was not at the standard at all).

So that's about it.

Cheers,
CJ

[n90bar]

I've successfully completed the OAT assessment.

Aswell as the things previosuly mentioned you also have a maths test, physics test and a personality test. (whereby u answer 200 questions). I personally found the Compass tests (computer based ones) the hardest.
One piece of advice - answer honestly for the peronality test - what u think may be the correct answer isn't necessarily what the assessors are looking for!

[captwannabe]

How does FTE's assessment compare? How does the Compass Test work?

[c_jephcott]

I totally forgot about the personality test. Sorry about that one guys!!

200 questions, all of which are repetitive but just answer truthfully, as any slight deviations will be picked up on.

[balhambob]

How are the Maths&Physics tests at OAT compared to Cabair? Cabair was very basic - GCSE pass standard

Also does anyone have any comments on the pilot/sim assessment at OAT. CAbair used Pilapt which I found reasonable challenging

Thanks

Rob

[n90bar]

Balham Bob

The physics part of OAT's assessment consists of 15 timed questions. The maths part has 24 questions (I think) which again is timed.

Nothing particularly difficult - long division/multiplication, changing subject of formulae etc. For the physics you should cover electrics, magnetism, kinetics, light & energy.

The sim check is the fun part. When I took my sim check, it was a current Captain for DHL cargo that did it. Fine chap he was and it was very relaxed. You were asked to do banking, climb/descending and constant speed/altitude & heading tasks.

[SinBin]

Just interested what the motivation is of going for this expensive course!?

[captwannabe]

Some people think it's the only way of making it as a pilot :rolleyes:

[sicky]

OAT seem as stringent as the airlines themselves!

[SinBin]

Captwannabe, their marketing department is brilliant! I'm going to start a school in direct competition with OAT, I think, easy money!!

[captwannabe]

SinBin, do I have a chance of landing the same jobs as almost everyone else if I train at your school? If so, my £100k is yours! ;)

[SinBin]

ching ching! My yacht is coming closer!

[LL-Snowman]

I went for the OAT assessment in October last year, but didnt pass everything for the integrated course. they recommended I came back to try again in four months, but I decided to boost my flying licence first.
I have now booked my place on the new 'Waypoint' modular course, and start in September for the ATPL ground school.
If anyone is worrying about going for selection, give me a shout n il share some advice on OAT. there are options if you don't make the grade.

[balhambob]

What is your problem?

You manage to hijack just about every thread with your negative comments about Integrated courses and especially OAT.

Could you perhaps divulge abit of information to us about who you are and why you feel so qualified to share yours negative views on every topic on this forum?

The original question on this thread was about the apptitude tests at OAT so stick to the subject matter pal.

If you want to have a good old moan then set up a Thread called 'Lets all moan about Integrated esp OAT!'

Sorry had to get that off my chest. ;)

Thanks

[dlav]

you tell 'em bob!! :ok: :D

[Felix Saddler]

thanks Bob! :D :D :D

[captwannabe]

If you had read my posts properly, you would have realised that I am not anti-Oxford or anti-integrated courses, but I am merely pointing out other options. I made factual points stating that CTC have better graduate placement than any other FTO. I also said that other integrated courses (such as FTE, which is less expensive) have the same prospects for their graduates as Oxford, which is also true. Is there something wrong with comparing other FTOs? It seems there is a case of Can't Read/Won't Read on these forums. Just because I'm not singing Oxford's praises (nor am I criticising them!), doesn't mean that I'm anti-Oxford. If someone mentions another FTO in the same sentence as Oxford, people take offence, and think there is criticism aimed at Oxford. I think that you have to compare the different FTOs because if people read only about Oxford, they will think Oxford is the only way. If you think Oxford is the right place for you out of all the options, then by all means, go for it!

[balhambob]

Thanks for the PM. Unfortunately you are like a broken record!

And regarding your last point:

"If you had bothered to read my posts properly, would you still have launched a public attack on me? You were a bit too quick to jump on my back."

1) I do read your posts properly. They are full of the same negative points. I take them with a very large pinch of salt

2) Regarding the "public attack"! Thats the funniest thing I have heard in a long time. YOU ARE ANONYMOUS ON THIS FORUM!!!!!!! No one knows who you are. I am mortified that I have hurt your feelings.

[captwannabe]

balhambob,

I'm bang on form boi, no hurt feelings ;). Apparently, you have misunderstood the points/posts I made, but there was no negativity intended whatsoever. To be honest, I don't want to get into a pointless, childish argument with you, even if you seem determined to do so with me. This detracts from the forums. Can't we just chill and put all this in the past?

All the best

[speedrestriction]

FemaleWannabe,

Residential Groundschool: 7 months
Hour Building: 1 Month
From start of CPL to end of MCC: 5 months

End of MCC to first job interview: 2 months 1 week :ok:

SR

[geraldn]

FemaleWannabe,
Residential Groundschool: 7 months
Hour Building: 1 Month
From start of CPL to end of MCC: 5 months
End of MCC to first job interview: 2 months 1 week :ok:
SR

From personal and third party experience, 7-8 months is a more realistic time scale for CPL to end of MCC.

[XL319]

What i find gob -smacking is that these tests don't say you can't do that job :}

[aftab]

may i just ask, what is the total cost of doing yur atpl via the waypoint modular route? full time.
thanks

[flyingcamel]

In answer to the original question, no it is not hard to get through Oxford's aptitude test............if you have the aptitude for it!

The whole point of Aptitude tests in this case is to find out if you are suited to:
a. The rigours of an Integrated course
b. The line of work you will ultimately go into

Trust me, given the serious financial committment involved you owe it to yourself to find out if you are what the industry is looking for. I mean, what is the point in getting through a half arsed assessment and paying £100k only to realise you weren't the right kind of person for the job at the end. That could have bought you a tidy flat ;-)

No but seriously you see where I'm going with that, and I wish you the best of luck getting in to OAT.

When you get to the psycho profile, just remember that you should not, under any circumstances, get diverted from the general questions into thinking of specific examples. To illustrate my point, a question commonly asked in these sorts of things is:

Do you get frustrated when stuck in traffic?

A seemingly innocuous question, but you'd be surprised how many people immediately think of a time recently when they were trying to get somewhere urgently and got held up in traffic and you will reply YES (if answering instinctively as per the brief.) The questionairre is a generalisation, so don't ever ever ever ever start thinking of examples. Say to yourself when faced with that question: On a regular, normal day, would I be overly frustrated by a minor traffic hold up?

Most people will then calmly and TRUTHFULLY answer no, and if you follow this way of approaching these questionaires then you will too. (That is unless you are a psycho baby boiler who has no business going into the aviation industry anyhow!) It's all about filtering out the unstable ones. Pilots are supposed to fit into a nice neat pigeonhole labelled 'stable extrovert' - something you will learn about in Human Performance. Make sure you are the stable extrovert they want you to be before you go into the industry, I think there are many more of these questionnaires to be filled out in the ensuing years!

With regard to the Sim check, its a piece of cake unless you are afflicted with the claw of Jeremy Beadle and have his interpersonal skills. They want to know if you can digest basic instructions, can multi task, and can GET ON WITH THE GUY SITTING NEXT TO YOU! Don't be afraid to concentrate on completing the manoevre before you tell them the square root of 63!

Oh and if you get through, enjoy the 'team building day'. You will never say the word 'tripod' again without it triggering memories of OAT's car park and dodgy lunch!

All the best.

The Camel

[woolyalan]

may i just ask, what is the total cost of doing yur atpl via the waypoint modular route? full time.
thanks

From what i remember from a seminar, its not a huge amount cheaper at oxford, theres all the little extras such as uniform that arent included in the price for modular, take a look at the oxford website and/or book a seminar, they are very informative (and take a notepad and pen with you, very useful)

Wooly

[kazi285]

hi guys i just received and information pack from oxford aviation training and just wondering if anyone knows how much it costs to accomplish the ATPL and ready to go for type rating?
cheers
P.S im soo confused wether to go florida or stsy in UK and do it and pay more money.

if theres any oxford graduates please advice me
thanks

[LL-Snowman]

Kazi285, expect to pay around £60,000 for the integrated training at OAT, pretty sure it says that in the brochure.
As for the type rating, that is usually between £15-£20,000, depending on the aircraft type. You may have to pay for that yourself, or the airline you get a job with, may pay it. they will then take a bit of money out your salary over so many years to get their money back.
Either way its a lot of money, however, you have got to spend money to make money.

[balhambob]

It clearly states what the cost is in the brochure - my kid sister could figure it out

If you cant work that out for yourself you might end up struggling with your ATPL!!!!!

[speedrestriction]

It clearly states what the cost is in the brochure - my kid sister could figure it out

Maybe, but she probably doesn't know what rental property costs in Oxfordshire or the likelyhood and cost of resitting exams and/or skills tests. ;)

The price quoted in any FTO's brochure is merely the start of your expenditure. Budget at least £6,000 - £8,000 for accomodation expenses. Then add the price of food, a car if you have one, the cost of license issue....the list goes on.

SR

[newbie008]

Has anyone done this? £25000 course cost,just wondering what the reality is?? Started a new job recently and can't stand it! Made me think about setting up a savings account and possibly aim at doing the waypoint course. Quoted as 6months does anyone have anymore info/recommendations? Dont really want to drag out modular route for years which is why im looking at oxford

[LL-Snowman]

Just wondering if there is anyone on here currently doing the Waypoint Modular Training at OAT?
Im due to start in a few weeks and just have a few questions.....

[dxbpilot]

Hey has anyone completed or currently doing the OAT waypoint course ? If so can you please let me know how it is as I'm starting my ATPL's at OAT in Nov but havn't decided where I am going to do my JAA CPL conversion/IR/ME/MCC. I'm coming over with Australian CPL.

I'm also considering Stapleford/Cabair.


If you could give me some insight please PM me or post here.


thanks

[whiskey1]

Where in Australia are you coming from?
Possible to convert in Australia now.
see http://www.waaviationcollege.com.au/ or the ad at the top of the page.

[dxbpilot]

Yeah I could go to WA for the training , but they don't do full time ATPL courses, they only do them for their intergrated courses so i would have to wait weeks between subjects. Last time I checked you still had to fly to the UK for the tests anyway.


I've just checked the site now, they've updated it since I last looked at it but looks like there still sending people to the UK for IR/MCC anyway.
thanks

[JD ERAU]

hi,
i wanted to know what do you think about oxford aviation.. it so expensive, but very good(what they said).. do you agree?or not?
THANX Jader

[potkettleblack]

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=131649

[Benza]

Got my OAT assessment on the 27th - 28th September. Pretty nervous but hoping it goes ok. Just recapping my memory on all the old maths and physics. Anyone else got theirs then?

[JT26]

Tried to post this last night so apologies if it comes up twice :)

Currently about to start my 2nd year of Uni and exploring the various avenues to achieveing a fATPL.

The OAT website states that they got 180 graduates into employment in 2005 and 120 so far this year....this is pretty useless information without knowing how many people graduate every year :ugh: . So could anyone tell me please? Alternatively does anyone know the percentage of graduates that achieve employment within 6 months?

This is the sort of information OAT needs to give and leads me to think that these statistics aren't so favourable otherwise the marketing boys down there would be plastering it all over the site.

Any help would be much appreciated :ok:

[scroggs]

Tried to post this last night so apologies if it comes up twice :)

Announcement (http://www.pprune.org/forums/announcement.php?f=14) - which will explain why your post didn't appear when you hit 'submit'. The duplicate post was deleted.

Scroggs

[roll_over]

Are you able to join the intergrated course if you have a ppl?

[speedrestriction]

181 job placements is actually pretty impressive.

Yes 181 is impressive BUT not all were people who completed in 2005/6, there were many who had qualified in 2004 and were waiting for jobs.

There are also quite a number of modular who go through Oxford and (incredible as it may seem to many of you) get jobs. Oxford I believe take credit for these employment stats as well.

sr

[helen0888]

Hey, I've got a seminar at OAT on the 7th october followed by a skills assesment soon after that.

Any recommendations on the more cheap / direct ways of getting there?
For me, being based in Manchester there is no direct mode of public transport, anyone from my neck of the woods got any recommendations on the most efficiant way of transporting myself there?

Any help would be appreciated

helen0888

[Groundloop]

Helen,

Don't Virgin Cross Country have direct trains between Manchester and Oxford? thetrainline.com comes up with some!

[Dozza2k]

when I wen thru oxford 2 years ago, 2 guys on my course had PPLs, as a result they were able to get an hours reduction on their VFR training in scottsdale, now Goodyear. Even the others who had a few hours but no PPL, I think were able to do the same to a limited extent.
d2k

[Craggenmore]

If I had my time again, I would have binned OAT and done GS with London Met, CPL/IR down at Exeter (hour building in the US) and then applied for the AQC course with CTC. I would therefore be where I am today and £30,000 richer. And believe it or not, with that kind of a saving I could have even (god forbid) paid for type rating and still had £10,000 left over.

Does that put it into perspective?

As someone said earlier, you pays yer money......

[adwjenk]

Hi,
As far as i am aware OAT no longer give credit to students with PPL or previous flying experiance!
You stil have to do the same number of hours, you will just progress quicker!
Hope that helps :ok:

[roll_over]

Hi,
As far as i am aware OAT no longer give credit to students with PPL or previous flying experiance!
You stil have to do the same number of hours, you will just progress quicker!
Hope that helps :ok:

Do you still have to do the skills test?

I was under the impression it tested whether or not you were able to fly?

[adwjenk]

Hi,

You do a 2-day skills assesment at OAT!
There is a sim check it really isn’t to test your flying ability since a integrated course is designed for students with little or no flying experience!
The sim is just to make sure you can listen to instructions and have a learning curve, also makes sure you have the hand eye co-ordination!

If you want more info on the selection run a search on PPRUNE, or visit the OAT website itself!

[African Drunk]

20 full time instructors for 130 students not many places can boast of such good ratios.

[will fly for food 06]

Hello,
i just wondered if anyone else had been invited to the opening and are going upto oxford aviation next weeK?

thanks

[badboy raggamuffin]

I shall be there, with my dad who will at the end of the day hand over a 60k wad of cash in order that I can have Oxford on my cv and be "fastracked" into a job with BA. We are looking forward to finding out how wonderful the place is and how people from other schools have absolutely no chance of finding an airline job and will leave content and feeling privelidged that OAT are doing me a favour by allowing me onto their course. C u there!

[YYZ]

Invited? Is this for one of the seminars they hold every month? Or something else..

YYZ

[BobbyK]

I got that email! Must be for anyone whos applied there I think. Im not gonna be able tomake it though although I did get a tour whilst I was their and saw there lovely new briefing room almost finished

[rogueflyer01]

Yup i did. Its only about their new jet thingy opening but i am not going as i have better things to do ....

[will fly for food 06]

I shall be there, with my dad who will at the end of the day hand over a 60k wad of cash in order that I can have Oxford on my cv and be "fastracked" into a job with BA. We are looking forward to finding out how wonderful the place is and how people from other schools have absolutely no chance of finding an airline job and will leave content and feeling privelidged that OAT are doing me a favour by allowing me onto their course. C u there!

cool see you there, enjoy, got the money ready just going to look at my options, i still havent left my previous flying job, got a few months left with them!

[Robbed_60Grand]

A few things you wont hear from Oxford but I wish I knew prior to going there. Their average course size is 25 people per month, that equates to 300 students a year. If you look at the “Employment Statistics” section on their website, graduate jobs for 2006 currently stands at 141 that equates to a successful graduate employment figure of 47%

From my experience Oxford career services should only be claiming that they have managed to gain employment for the following companies BA, BA Connect, Excel, FlyBe and Jet2, which is a grand total of 61 jobs (21%) according to their latest web site figures (2006) If you take into account the GECAT scheme where you have to pay ₤500.00 for an assessment and then fund your own type rating, then you have BMI, BMI Baby, Easyjet and Thomas Cook which totals 33 (11%) but this is more a GECAT success than Oxford career services. Combining these 2 figures together (being generous towards OAT) it comes to 32% graduate employment. A further 47 (16%) of graduates have managed to gain employment from their own initiatives. This leaves 159 (52%) students without jobs, zero help from Oxford careers services and a whopping debt yet you have paid over the odds for a careers service that is no where near as successful as it claims to be.

To be in this 32% there are some un-written rules that you will not be aware of when you start your APP course. To stand any chance of the selection board giving you a recommendation at the end of your training you need to have ground school first time passes with an average of 85+% you will need “3” or better in all flight tests and a first series IR. Any mistakes along the way during your training will rule you out of receiving any recommendation from OAT’s selection board. Even if you do achieve this standard your face needs to fit, they have to “decide” to like you and you have no control over this.

You need to also be aware of the EPST (European Pilot Selection & Training) Dutch contingent, they get preferential treatment especially when being put forward for jobs due to contractual obligations between then and Oxford, so any English student is immediately disadvantaged.

The 16% who find employment through their own imitative were binned by Oxford yet when Oxford hear of their success, they suddenly pull your name out of the bin and proudly put it on their “Graduate Jobs Board” and put you in as a statistic on their web site as if you are one of their success stories.

Overall you have a less than 1 in 3 chance of successfully being employed through OAT

The actual school and their training I have no problem with however I take issue with the misleading marketing spin they employ, you believe that you are paying a premium for the use of OAT’s many contacts in the airline industry, their careers service and the so called employment boom that is apparently about to happen in the next month or two (after 2 years of this it wears thin!!)

If I knew all these facts before going to OAT, I would have perhaps gone elsewhere and definitely have gone down the Modular route as the truth about the integrated course is just hype and does not deliver a job in the fashion they would have you believe. Taking the cheaper modular route will mean that you will still spend the ₤60,000+ but included in this cost will be a type rating that you will most probably have to pay for.

Other schools integrated courses may be similar, I don’t know, I can only comment on my own experience, This post is not intended to just slate Oxford, I feel it is important for any wannabe to know that before parting with a huge sum of money that you know precisely what you are going to get for that money and the fact that there is a very good chance that you will graduate and then be left to your own devices with a monumental debt. You very quickly become the forgotten Oxford student; there are many of us out there!

One final piece of advice: Read between the lines of all the marketing spin thrown at you! At the end of the day it’s your decision and you need to be able to live with that.


:ouch:

[will fly for food 06]

Thanks, some interesting reading. I am trying not to rush into anything with my ATPL and look at all the schools.

[Captain Spam Can]

Excellent post, I often thought half of the students who have gained employment on there website have done it through GECAT so they funded there own type rating (about £21000) and then a few have gone to Ryanair again funding there own training, both of these places accept Modular students providing you pass selection, then there’s bound to be a few who have done it of there own back, so that leaves a few who OAT have secured employment for, compared with the number of pilots they train a year that’s not many. What makes me laugh though is the guy they use in the picture standing in front of that private jet (Canadair CRJ I think??) was a modular student with them who found employment himself, but wrote in to Oxford telling them and sending a Pic!!! I have had a look around Oxford and I think that there an excellent training organisation and I wouldn’t mind doing the Ground School there but as for jobs at the end….”Don’t believe the Hype”:= (Public Enemy Quote!!!)

[dlav]

Robbed 60_Grand, as a current APP student, I would like to hear a little more about your situation. I am currenlty in Goodyear half way through my initial flight training.

I would like to know how you performed at Oxford, ie Groundschool results, flying test reports, IR atempts etc, and if you have had any airline interviews?

I sympathise with you entirely, and I can imagine its not a nice situation to be in. If you would rather PM me thats fine.

Wishing you all the best
dlav

[Robbed_60Grand]

I am not going to be too specific… to protect my identity (just in case they ever do feel the need to give me one of their valued recommendations, I won’t hold my breath LOL!!!)

I consider my results at Oxford as more than reasonable.. I passed all ground school exams with and average between 80 to 85% (cant be too specific) had a couple of resits that were passed at the next try. On the flying side of things I passed all flight test's first time and have a 1st series IR. I thought my report from the school read quite well, I did not cause any trouble and got on with everyone both OAT staff and students. Even though my report reads quite well, it does not read well enough for the OAT graduate services to consider putting me forward to any airlines. So apart from a couple of % and resits at ground school, I was not that far away from the unwritten rules I mentioned previously.

When you first graduate you call the careers team weekly all upbeat but as time progresses you realise they are just fobbing you off and that you are just wasting your time and that if you didn’t call them, they certainly wouldn’t call you!!

To date I have still not had a single interview, having the Oxford APP name on my CV has counted for absolutely nothing. If you have to send out CV’s on your own it really is a total waste of time, even getting a rejection letter seems like an achievement! Around 2 years on (not being specific on time) I never once got a phone call from their careers team, I hope that some how some day I can achieve that break myself.

So what do I do in the mean time? Well you have to live and somehow pay back a mountain of debt so I now working in a office from 9-5 and 4 evenings through the week I work at my local tesco's stacking shelves. This is just so i can keep on top off my debt and trying so very hard to save some more money so that i can start a FIC to keep aviation experience current, its hard to spend another 6k on a job that will not pay, but what else can I do, Im on my own. I have spoken to local companies and they have basically said that once qualified they “may” be able to give me a few sunday afternoon students.

The only advice I can give you is make sure that you are meet or are well above their unwritten rules, otherwise you’ll be in a very similar boat as are a lot of APP graduates

Rob’d

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Robbed - thank you for sharing your experience with us all. Most illuminating and a tale that I have heard many times for many years. My advice has remained that it is better to save £20k, go modular at a good school and then be in either less debt or buy a type rating or get GECAT or CTC to help you over the wall into the airlines. Or approach a smaller air taxi operator and offer to self fund a rating.

Integrated does work for some and they would be the first to promote the benefits. I think though that it doesn't work for the majority and your figures suggest just that.

I also think the selection procedures for recommendation are weak. A perfectly good pilot can fluff his IRT or partial his CPL or just scrape their weakest exam subject. A total prat can ace the lot. And to be honest it makes not a jot worth of difference when you get to line training. A student I know of who was the ace of his course got chopped on line training. Similarly a student who actually ripped of a nosewheel, twice, whose navigation was more luck than judgement and who was sick if you went past a 30 degree bank angle has just completed their command course last month I hear.

Its more the person and their character and their motivation that is important. Unfortunately I think very large schools are uniquely bad at getting to know their students. Its a huge sausage machine and one course looks very similar to another on the conveyor belt.

I flew with someone the other day who had done the whole Modular course for £42k from scratch by various means including buying into a syndicate aircraft. All in the UK, all at Little Piddlington in the Marsh School of Flying, and he is about £40k up on some others I have seen.

Thats a good house deposit.

Good luck,

WWW

[porridge]

WWW – that’s about the best summation of what it is all about. You are correct to say that it is much about personal management of career progression. Having someone manage it for you, for a fairly hefty premium, is an option, but sometimes not good enough to get the job. These big schools scarcely put their mouth where the money is.
Recently I heard that airlines are now looking quite seriously at us lowly instructors again (I wonder why, maybe it is a personality and Multi-crew thing). One of the best things I heard recently was about a 51 year-old FI, who had only been instructing for 18 months or so, has got a job as FO on a Citation. He told me that what he though swung it for him is that during his sim check, whilst he was FO to a 26 year old “Captain”; the “Captain” got disorientated and did a level bust and was approaching 30 degress A of B in IF conditions. Said instructor, true to form and instinctively reverting to type, said “I have control”, reduced the A of B and sorted the level problem, and then handed control back to the “Captain”. Well I might be wrong, but that is what MCC is all about.
I also heard that in a recent examiners meeting, the Chief Examiner commented that the airlines are looking very favourably at the 1000 hour plus instructor.
Food for thought or what?

[tescoapp]

Another thing to note about those satistics.

They arn't just intergrated students. Its anyone who has done any training at OAT. Be it Ground school, distance learning or flying.

I had phoned up Steve C when I got my first job to tell him the good news. And that year of the 5 people who were claimed by OAT on there website for our company. Two of us were mod ground school, one full time ground school, one did his cpl with OAT then went to exeter for the IR. And only one had done an Intergrated course but he had instructed for 1.5 years before getting the job.

http://www.oxfordaviation.net/employment_stats.htm

And to be honest looking at the list of companys there are some very noticable omissions/ very low numbers in comparision to numbers of first job pilots being taken on. Flybe, eastern and BMI regional being a prime examples.

And i notice they have removed the previous years results could it be they don't want people to see that during the greatest high in pilot recruitment in the last 10 years the number of OAT pilots getting jobs is actually dropping?

[rogueflyer01]

Very interesting posts gentlemen! Thank you for the useful info robbed and i hope it all works out for you. :ok:

I have just been offered a place on a app course and i was all up for getting into a huge amount of debt but after reading your post i shall indeed think twice before i sign on the dotted line.

The modular route (via Egnatia) is looking more and more attractive as the days go by...

[dlav]

Robbed 60 Grand, thank you for replying. I have a queston for you tho, why would you not want an Oxford recomendation?

Surely someone with as much debt as you, and no airline employment thus far, needs all the help they can get?

Just a thought
dlav

[Robbed_60Grand]

Dlav,

Not sure where you got that idea from, of course I would like a recommendation from OAT, I'd love one, but the whole point of my original post is that I cant get one. Despite doing pretty well on the APP course OAT's recommendation board wont put me forward for anything.

Rob'd

[fast & fat]

Robbed_60grand

I was in a similar situation to you after graduating from OAT, All I can say is just keep going and it will happen, you have just got to put your self about and keep motivated..

To cut along story short I've managed to gain employment through my own initiative to a large Irish airline where you have to pay for your own type rating. A job is a job and it’s a very good one at the end of the day.

Just to add more weight to your topic I noticed on the OAT website that they either have their facts very wrong or they are simply not telling the truth. The comments from Mike G annoyed me slightly.

http://www.oxfordaviation.net/Forum/topic.asp?whichpage=2&ARCHIVEVIEW=&TOPIC_ID=3055

Being one of the said '6' that has been employed by said Irish airline, I can confirm that OAT (and GECAT for that fact) has nothing to do with Ryanair recruitment and I received no such recommendation to GECAT.

I got the Job myself by applying to Ryanair, going to Ryanair’s sim assessment (not GECATS) and passing it.

Robbed PM me if you want more info…

Fast & Fat

[GgW]

from dlav's post
''Surely someone with as much debt as you, and no airline employment thus far, needs all the help they can get?

Just a thought
dlav''

I attended a Waypoint open day ( not saying when ) , and someone asked ''the speaker'' if Oxford would assist any waypoint students, in helping them finding a job. The reply was , ''The employment department was funded by APP students and not any money from the waypoint scheme/training program was used/allocated to the ''employment'' department. So my point is, al you integrated students should at least have some form of help, when you have graduated, even if it is just a phone call from Oxford once a month, not you phoning them they phoning you.To give you a little bit of support and may be some phone numbers. WHY because you have paid them for it. Because that APP funded department is one of their biggest marketing ''hypes''.

Just a thought
GgW

[dlav]

Once again thanks for replying.
I am not going to be too specific… to protect my identity (just in case they ever do feel the need to give me one of their valued recommendations, I won’t hold my breath LOL!!!)

I guess I misinterpreted the above phrase wrong then. When I read that sentence originally it looked as if you were saying you didn't want a recomendation. My bad.

So why protect your identity? It is now in OATs best interest (and reputation) to help you find employment, as your post will have no doubt, caused a few concerns for potential OAT customers and APP aplicants.

Ggw - Of course he deserves career services! Thats my point, if he protects his identity, then how is OAT ever to know who he is, to offer such services?

[fast & fat]

Just to spell it out to OAT.... (who's staff take great interest in this thread)

To correct their Training advisor

My type rating was not at GECAT and ryanair do not use GECAT for any type ratings.

I passed my sim assessment thanks to paying for 2 hours in a real 737 sim.

If they did recommend me to GECAT its the 1st I heard of it.

This shows Mike Langley's (Director - Careers & Employment Services) true colours.

all comments reffer to this link

http://www.oxfordaviation.net/Forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3055&whichpage=2&ARCHIVE=

Fast & fat

[rogueflyer01]

Ggw - Of course he deserves career services! Thats my point, if he protects his identity, then how is OAT ever to know who he is, to offer such services?


Lol dlav, robbed is a OAT App graduate! if they didn't recommened him when he graduated then why will they now if he reveils his identity :confused: or are you saying that one has to kick up a fuss to get a OAT recommendation :confused: after spending somewhere in the region of 80K!

caused a few concerns for potential OAT customers and APP aplicants

Concerns no, made me see the truth behind the iron curtain yes!

Oh well phase 4 ctc is looming and stage 3 for the flybe scheme.lets hope one comes through for me then i won't have to go anywhere near the likes of OAT. :)

[fast & fat]

I want to make something clear..

OAT as a flight training school is an exceptionaly professional set up, and from my experiences they make it very easy to get through a difficult course.

as Mike G says on the OAT website, It did help that I received good professional training, (but who is he to say that you could not get that anywhere else for cheaper).

So if this is the case with my professional training recieved at OAT, why did they not see fit to recommend me to any of their 'contacts'? As this is the reason why you pay the 'OAT Premium'

Fats & fat

[dlav]

No, of course thats not what I am saying.

Im well aware he is an APP graduate, all I am saying is that he should make himself more known to the careers team instead of making posts on PPRUNE trying to further his cause.

Rob'd has spent ALOT of cash on his training, and deserves a little career support which he is clearly not recieving.

Appologies for any confusion caused.

Good luck with CTC AND flybe :ok:

dlav

[Craggenmore]

Robbed_60Grand,

What a good post and you certainly do not need to justify it. It bought back memories of being scrapped myself and it will also read true to many, many of my associates who attended during the same period.

Being one of the said '6' that has been employed by said Irish airline, I can confirm that OAT (and GECAT for that fact) has nothing to do with Ryanair recruitment and I received no such recommendation to GECAT.

Ahhhh! So OAT still lie about their placement stats! What a surprise; must fill those seats...!

All of my class found jobs as a result of our own determination; no one had a recommendation. However, just like the quote above, as soon as OAT got wind about some of us gaining employment, they claimed on their web site that the job had come through them..! They knowingly lied and took the credit for our hard work. These were libelous claims with the sole intention to improve their marketing information. OAT had nothing to do with our success.

I would imagine that at least 20% of those placement figures are falsely credited to OAT.

Nothing changes.

[dxbpilot]

Hi i'm just trying to get in touch with any OAT waypoint students that have completed this course in the last year. I would just like some information. Please PM me

thanks

[kmbteo]

Hiya, i have some questions with regards to the 2days assesment test. Is it really tough? Does oxford accept students from other countries like Singapore?

Thanks

[speedrestriction]

No. Yes.

sr

[expedite08]

KMBTEO,

I wouldnt worry too much about the tests that all these schools are in to. I personnally think that its all greatly overrated hype and nonsense, and proves nothing! Though some airlines are in to it too, you have got to remember the cookie crumbles both ways!

Let me explain, a friend of mine went to CTC for thier Airline Qualification Course and falied the tests to an extent they told them to never reapply i.e in thier eyes he had no 'aptitude'. Now, said person had all the licences and 1000 hours plus instructing,( you need these to even apply!) but no supposed 'aptitude' for flying! hhmm Said person now flying quite happily for a TP operator. Good going seeing as they dont have any 'aptitude for it!

It works the other way too, some wizz kid might breeze the tests but have zero ability in flying!!

Moral of the story. The tests are all flash trendy recruitmet/ selection hype.

Appologies for the slight thread drift!!! Just my thoughts:ok:

Cheers

expedite

[Donandar]

Robbed_60Grand,
What a good post and you certainly do not need to justify it. It bought back memories of being scrapped myself and it will also read true to many, many of my associates who attended during the same period.
Ahhhh! So OAT still lie about their placement stats! What a surprise; must fill those seats...!
All of my class found jobs as a result of our own determination; no one had a recommendation. However, just like the quote above, as soon as OAT got wind about some of us gaining employment, they claimed on their web site that the job had come through them..! They knowingly lied and took the credit for our hard work. These were libelous claims with the sole intention to improve their marketing information. OAT had nothing to do with our success.
I would imagine that at least 20% of those placement figures are falsely credited to OAT.
Nothing changes.

Certainly starting to see a little bit more truth behind OAT - but when I looked over their stats I noticed it doesn't actually claim that it came through them... Which at the end of the day is fair enough, just take into account they're not all via. OAT's efforts. Nothing to get too wound up about.

"The great majority of these were as a direct result of placement facilitation through OAT; but some were also achieved through graduate efforts themselves."

[norton2005]

slightly off subject but any of you know if anyone with a deviation on their medical certificate has ever attended OAT? you know because of the whole going to phoenix thing.

[Vee One...Rotate]

norton2005,

I'm at OAT and have a deviation on my Class I. Not even an issue.

Regards,

V1R

[gernie]

Hi everybody!

As I heard those are the top aviation schools in Europe. Does anyone know who have better employment stadistics?

I´ve been in Jerez, visiting the school and It looks pretty nice. They gave me an appointment to do the skills assessments on the 10th of april! That talks a lot about the school. But I also want to visit visit Oxford now, and do the skills assessments. But before I want to brush up on my physics and maths, so It would be very helpful if someone who have already done the OAT skills assessments, could comment about what kind of test they do, and what kind of physics and maths they ask for.

Thanks a lot!! :O

[acuba 290]

JOC (jet orientation course)

what kind of course is it? where i can see information about it? never saw such things like JOC...what are you going to study there? I thought, that after IFR/ME/CPL only type rating required....

[norton2005]

after achieving your cpl/me/IR, you also need to achieve your mcc, that is mandatory, the joc is optional. both mcc and joc are jet training.

talking of jet orientation, cabair does whats called a jet appreciation course, is this just there way of wording a jet orientation course differently or is it slightly different?

[gernie]

Hi everybody!

As I heard those are the top aviation schools in Europe. Does anyone know whic one have better employment stadistics?

I´ve been in Jerez, visiting the school and It looks pretty nice. They gave me an appointment to do the skills assessments on the 10th of april! That talks a lot about the school. But I also want to visit visit Oxford now, and do the skills assessments. But before I want to brush up on my physics and maths, so It would be very helpful if someone who have already done the OAT skills assessments, could comment about what kind of test they do, and what kind of physics and maths they ask for.

Thanks a lot!! :O

[Captain Spam Can]

Does anyone know if Oxford make you do the 2 day selection tests and interview for there waypoint scheme?(at the pleasure of £200 quid!). Thought i might get an answer sooner here rather than phone them in the morning (before any one says).:}

[TheOne83]

Does anyone know if Oxford make you do the 2 day selection tests and interview for there waypoint scheme?(at the pleasure of £200 quid!). Thought i might get an answer sooner here rather than phone them in the morning (before any one says).:}

To join waypoint you can commence ATPL Ground School once you hold a valid PPL (45 hrs minimum) and JAA Class 1 Medical.
You only need to ensure you have the necessary 150 hrs total time,
including 70 hrs P1, once you have passed the ground exams and are ready to commence the CPL flight training.
So it's up to you to get 150 hours before you join OAT or do it there at the same time you are studying. Good luck!! :ok:

/niko

[TheOne83]

Hi everybody!

As I heard those are the top aviation schools in Europe. Does anyone know whic one have better employment stadistics?

I´ve been in Jerez, visiting the school and It looks pretty nice. They gave me an appointment to do the skills assessments on the 10th of april! That talks a lot about the school. But I also want to visit visit Oxford now, and do the skills assessments. But before I want to brush up on my physics and maths, so It would be very helpful if someone who have already done the OAT skills assessments, could comment about what kind of test they do, and what kind of physics and maths they ask for.

Thanks a lot!! :O

Hi there here i forward you some info i found;

The Skills Assessment has five Stages:


-Stage One - Computer based tests to check Aptitude, Technical Knowledge and Personality. There is a 200 question personality profile plus computerized pilot aptitude screening, which has six parts, Control, Slalom, Memory, Maths, Orientation, and Task Manager plus a Technical Test.
Control and Slalom check your hand to eye coordination.
Memory checks your short term recall.
Math checks your speed and ability to handle mental arithmetic at GCSE level.
Orientation checks your ability to interpret information presented on two dimensiional aircraft instruments and translate that to a three dimensional picture in your head so you can stay orientated.
Task Manager checks your ability to handle two different tasks that require near simultaneous attention.
The Technical Test checks your comprehension of GCSE level physics as they relate to aviation orientated mechanical concepts.

-Stage Two - Flight Simulator Check of your capacity and aptitude for flight.

-Stage Three - Team Exercises to check your verbal reasoning skills, problem solving capability and communication skills.

-Stage Four - Individual Interview to assess your personality, aviation knowledge and commitment to an airline career.

-Stage Five - An Individual Debrief that is comprehensive, objective and honest. Here you will see all of your test results and your strengths and weaknesses will be discussed in detail. A decision is not made until the end of this debrief and you do have an opportunity to influence the outcome even here.

There are two major questions the assessors seek to answer:
Does this person have the requisite skills and aptitude to pass both the rigorous Ground School and all stages of the Flying Training?
Does this person have the personality, communication skills and team working skills that the airlines are looking for?
In other words, can he/she pass the course and if so can he/she get a job? A negative answer to either question usually results in a failure, though if the weak areas are deemed to be correctable, the applicant may be invited to try again after a few months time elapse for revision.

The Assesments test normally takes 2 days.

Good luck!! ;) :ok:

/niko

[expedite08]

And dont forget that is at your expense! 'rigourous groundschool' Never heard that one! Sounds like Oxford marketing speak comming through! My training provider never described it as that!

Oh and I havent taken any Oxford tests, but got a 92% average! Interesting eh

Cheers

Expedite

[TheOne83]

Yes, you have to pay for making the tests and also for accomodation if you stay on site. Sad but true.. :hmm:

[WelcomeAboard]

Hello,

I'm 29 and have decided to finish what i tried to start 9 years ago! To become a commercial airline pilot. Back then i applied to the BA sponsorship scheme, though as fate would have it Sept 11th occurred and, hence, BA kindly contacted me to say that the application would not be accepted in the current climate! So after a few other jobs over the years, and a lot of saving, the time has come. I remember that back then BA's training was carried out at Oxford, so i contacted them for some info, since i want to get the course completed as soon as possible they advised me to go for the "Integrated ATPL(A) APP FIRST OFFICER" course. Does anybody have any experience of this particular course? Good and Bad, also their employment prospects upon completion.

All advice and help would be much appreciated.


Philip.
Commercial link removed

[WelcomeAboard]

Hello again,

Well, after sifting through everything in this thread i'm not so sure about oxford now, what other routes are open to me in regards to training, any other schools come highly recommended or is it all a much of a muchness?

Phil

[Captain Spam Can]

Does anyone know if the waypoint price includes fulltime groundschool? I know it dosnt include hour building. I have tried contacting Oxford but still waiting for a response.
Thanks

[Cirrus_Clouds]

Hi OAT folk,

If you are doing a Modular course at OAT, can you please provide me with some feedback regarding the quality of training?

I am currently investigating their Waypoint Pilot Programme.

I am looking past the marketing ** and as I'm planning to visit this college shortly, it would be useful to have feedback to take into account while I do my research.

Thanks.

Cirrus :ok:

[Superpilot]

Hi,

I started Distance Learning with them at the beginning of last year with a view to carry on doing the Waypoint course. Since then, I've heard many stories of disappointment. Stories have been posted on here (do a search). Therefore, I decided to ditch it and do my modular training elsewhere. At least 4 other UK based FTOs can provide the same licenses; same hours, utilising a newer and modern fleet of aircraft at £10,000 less than the OAT price. One of these is only 'down the road' from me. When I was naive I thought having OAT on my CV would be worth the extra cash and the travel/accommodation expenses but having grown up a little I’ve now realised these are not the things that matter. We should do what suits us best.

Good luck

[BigAl's]

Hi super pilot,

how did you rate the OAT DL?

Thanks

BigAl

[Superpilot]

BigAl,

It's OK overall. DL is really what you make of it. A couple of downsides - the hundreds of grammatical and spelling mistakes in the book which makes you doubt what you're reading. Also The Online Virtual College is pants, it's hardly ever kept up to date.

[Cirrus_Clouds]

Thanks for the info guys, I will take note.

At least 4 other UK based FTOs can provide the same licenses; same hours, utilising a newer and modern fleet of aircraft at £10,000 less than the OAT price.

I have wondered if paying an extra £10k is worth it, that's why i'm going to visit the complex to find the quality of the a/c amongst other things; where as a possible £10k could be put towards a type rating if need be.



Lastly, its you who has to study hard and learn all for the sake of the knowledge and not the ATPL Exam PASS.
Many people studied in other schools and passed , do they have the knowledge or they just have the License. Thats the Question.

This comment can be said about any individual at any school, even OAT.

[davey147]

I've been considering going to Oxoford too as I really liked the place when I visited, I dont think there are any other FTO's like it. But after looking in detail at the Waypoint package I decided that its not worth the extra cash. its £25,000 for the Course £3,000 for the skills test package, approx £2,000 for food, accomodation, and about £2,500 for the DL package.

Thats £32,500 not such a bad price, but when you can get all the FAA licences in the USA, plus the JAA ones for less than £25,000.

And i've been told by so many people to differ myself from the other 250 hour pilots and try to build hours first, whether its by flight instrucing, TP flying or both. After paying out £32k to Oxford I couldnt aford to do this.

And to be honest I personally think you need the hours rather than the name on your CV, but thats my view, I dont know what matters the most to the airlines.

I've also been told by many airline pilots to enjoy my flying before moving on to the the big jets, as thats when it starts to become less fun everyday.

Im going to aim to have about 2,000 hours before applying for my first airline jet job, hopefully this will include some TP hours too. Basically my aim is to unfreeze both FAA ATP and JAA ATPL's.

I hope im doing the right thing, but good luck what ever you choose to do :)

[Brian304]

hey davey

sorry to disappoint you, but for a JAA ATPL to unfreeze will take about 500 Multi-crew hours before you can gain them, well unless your a billionaire then you can buy your own B737 then gain your own hours from there haha.

BRI :ok:

[davey147]

Whats wrong with getting a TP job first, like I stated in my post.

Big Jets arnt the only Multi Crew airplanes on earth you know, im not under that illusion like a lot of you :)

[dlav]

Id love a turbo prop job, (well anything that burns jet fuel would be nice).

Everybody ive come across in my training, even here at oxford, has said the best days of their career were spent on turboprops. "Proper Flying" as they say :ok:

dlav

[davey147]

Cool, these pilots are telling me the truth then.

My ultimate goal is to be Captain on a 747 flying longhaul, well it was, now its Captain flying Virgin Galactic!!! :)

But before I definately want to experience flying real, in turbo props, pistons, washing machines etc. :)

[mad_jock]

Good on you lot for wanting to go to TP for a bit.

They really are fun to fly and sometimes you have to stop yourself smiling after a challanging approach when the pax can see you.

BTW the pay isn't that bad. 18-30K for an FO and 35K-50k for a Captain which with todays market you can expect in 2-3 years.

And some of the newer TP's beat the pants off most of the jets in the cockpit and most of them stuff the jets for speed in the approach phase.
I have a suspicion that over the next few years that TP's will become more and more economic compared to regional jets. So if it all goes tits up again and you have to step back to TP flying you will be a better bet than a jet only person.

[suger]

can anyone tell me how good oxford is for my training to become a airline pilot and were can anyone recomend for finance??:ugh: its a bit of a brick wall trying to find a bank that is prepaired to give me £75000.
please help:sad: thanks x

[gernie]

Hi, I´m a spanish student thinking in OAT to do my pilot training. Last week I´ve booked an appointment to do the skills on the 31th and 1st of February. And I would like to know if someone knows with a little bit of detail in what kind of test the skills consist and specially what kind of maths and physics exercices can I found there. Many thanks PS: If someone is going on the same days and fancy a chat before the event that´d be great.
Cheers,
Gerardo.

[TheOne83]

Hola Gerardo!

Been in OAT twice, drop me a mail so we can talk about it. ;)

Hasta luego, cuidate.


Hi, I´m a spanish student thinking in OAT to do my pilot training. Last week I´ve booked an appointment to do the skills on the 31th and 1st of February. And I would like to know if someone knows with a little bit of detail in what kind of test the skills consist and specially what kind of maths and physics exercices can I found there. Many thanks PS: If someone is going on the same days and fancy a chat before the event that´d be great.
Cheers,
Gerardo.

[tornadof3raf]

Well i did the APP at oxford, so anyone want any advice, drop us a line! I found them quite good, but speaking to people who are still there doing the IR, it sounds like they have way too many students and hardly any aircraft! What i found with oxford is once they have your money they stop looking after you a little. They concentrate on bringing more students in (advertising, Builiding work) than getting the students they already have through the course! Don't want to bad mouth them too much as they we're pretty good too me and they put me forward for my job! I had a great time there and the instruction was top class.

I did my type rating on the 737 down at CTC, don't really know much about the wings program but they seemed pretty switched on down there.

[gernie]

Well i did the APP at oxford, so anyone want any advice, drop us a line!

So u should know what kind of maths and physics exercises they are asking for in the skills assessments, don´t you?
It would be great if you can remember any of them and what kind of exercises they were and how it was for you the experience cos I´m going in a few days and don´t wanna have a big sourprise! ;D Many thanks

Cheers,:}

Gerardo.

[tornadof3raf]

Most of it is computer based stuff, handeye co-ordination, orientation. I seem to remember guiding a little triangle through a slalom course. If you've played flight sim or something on a playstation etc, you should have no problem. Each phase is marked out of seven. Multi tasking involves a sort of memory game, remembering autopilot inputs, heights and headings etc, while cancelling the appropriate warning which will appear in any corner of the screen. You've got to cancel by pushing the appropriate number on the keypad which corresponds to the position on the screen. The maths wasn't that difficult, basic multiplication and division. The thing is, if your stuck just go onto the next one. When i did it they got easier as i went along so don't spend years on a question, just leave it and go onto the next! The physics was more common sense than anything. e.g if a stone comes off a tyre at speed which direction will it fly off, and it gives you 3 options. Pretty sure it shouldnt have changed that much since i did it. Went to a seminar couple of months back to help out and i seem to remember it looked pretty similar then.

Don't want to say too much incase i mislead you, a lot of it is down to natural ability but if you've got a good situational awareness and an alright handeye co-ordination you should be fine! Good luck with it all, Its a great job!

[AeroEng]

Hi all,

I was wondering if anyone could help me. On OAT website they give a list of the employment stats for 2006. In 2006 166 OAT grads gained FO jobs. I was wondering what the total number students OAT trained in 2006 was. Congrats to all those who did gain employment but how may have not.

Cheers

AE

[mad_jock]

Thats the big secret.

In fact its a universal secret how many pilots are qualifying every year.

They used to provide data in a very hard to read form with no key to what the different headings mean here (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/srg_fcl_LRIssues_2004_05.pdf)

Its well over due for this year they did in the past give quite good data but it seems after 2000, which was when the JAR change came along and made it so that there was no difference between an intergrated person license and a modular license. The data dried up.

The caa could very easily produce data with how many Intergrated students qualify a year in total and how many modular.

They could also tell you how many intial type ratings are supplied to UK JAR pilots.

But they won't because its commercially sensitive. I wonder why?

I suspect that there is something like 9 courses running a year with 25 people on them. The current students at OAT won't tell you either.

The data from OAT is a bit miss leading as well because the people who got jobs are not only from this year. It is also not only Intergrated students which they list. It is anyone who has any training at all with OAT that they have found out that they have got a job. So if you did modular ground school with them and they find out you got a job you will be put down as a OAT success story.

Because of the time taken to train a pilot from scratch and the cost the airlines rely on a over supply of fresh CPL/IR holders. It means they can react to a boom in 3 months instead of 2 years if they had to train you from scratch.

So I am quite sure that as well as the schools the airlines won't want the real state of play being known to the people thinking about a career.

[mad_jock]

All ready got a job thanks.

Modular trained never had a problem getting a job.

Spent 30k on my training in 2000-2001.

Oxford trained Pilots versus anyone else. err no different to be honest. Same test same standard. Put 10 pilots in a sim post IR and you won't be able to tell the difference. Some will excel and some will be OK. It won't have anything to do with being at OAT.

Same with theory.

Oxford dosn't actually have that good a reputation for quality pilots. If you want real hand stick quality pilots the atlantic fuglys stand apart. But you couldn't buy the training that they have had. I suspect BA limit there intake to intergrated schools purely to cut down the numbers applying. The schools know what they like and filter all the knobs out for them, saving HR's time and effort. BA this year have employed way more 500 hour multicrew people than 200 hour fresh out of school chaps. And with the 500 hour types it doesn't matter which school you went to or if you flew jet or TP. I don't think the quality will be dropping (maybe it is) its just the bean counters have worked out that there is alot less risk using someone who already has jumped through the hoop of type rating and line training.

The argument isn't that the training is bad because it isn't, its just the same as anywhere else. Its just way over priced and the magic step up in front of other pilots is virtually none exsistant. You may get lucky and be one of the 5% that get's put forward for a job with BA/BMI whoopy do, you have just payed 35K for the 1 in 20 chance of getting put forward for some pretty poor T&C's and having to live in London. Anyway next year will be interesting with BA as I think the current handbag fight with CC will change alot of things.

Most of the jobs on that list are with companys that don't care where you did your training. So you have exactly the same chance as someone trained elsewhere except they payed 35k less than you did.

We shall see

[mad_jock]

I've gotta tell you, saying that training is the same no matter where you go is like saying that there is no difference between a Ford and a Ferrari....they're both cars, right?


Your statement actually sums it up quite nicely.

The basic premise of a car is 4 wheels that gets you from A to B.

You have the ford which will get you from A to B for a reasonable price reasonably reliably and not using much fuel. And your not scared to leave it parked for a while while you have a break. And if it does get damaged it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to fix.

And you have a Ferrari costs heaps, uses tons of fuel and has a huge posing factor. You still get from A to B and if you stick to the speed limits on the road you will arrive at nearly the same time. And if you leave it parked anywhere for a break you could find alot of damage done which will cost you heaps.

So you get from A to B in this case from untrained to trained its just that the cost is double. And similar to driving a Ferrari most people just think you have more money than sense. There will be a select few who think you are so cool driving a Ferrari but most will prefer to have the ford where not only do you get from A to B but you also can take your family with in relative comfort.

And I think you will find that I am not as such "bad mouthing" their training ( I actually went to OAT for ground school) I think thier modular course is spot on at a very reasonable price. What I am "bad mouthing" is the marketing spin and posing which states that you are getting something special when you are not when you sign up for the intergrated course.

[mad_jock]

And to add I know quite a few Ferrari owners in Aberdeen none of them bought them on finance.

And all of them had a clapped out **** heap for driving to work.

Mind you Aberdonians do have well established reputation for being tight with cash. The Chief of Police was even quoted as saying that he had rekitted the whole of the riot equipment for under 200 quid. When asked how he had managed it. He answered it was easy I just bought 100 charity collection boxes, it will clear the streets in under 5 minutes.

[Lucy_L]

Their website is very unclear about whether you get a PPL.

http://www.oxfordaviation.net/air_appfo.htm

During phase 3 you complete 105 hours on a single engined piston on a Piper but it doesn't actually say that you get a PPL at the end of it.

Someone please clarify.

[gblen]

exactly right, you go to the states and do your vfr phase finishing with a cpl in the seneca (not a physical CPL, just the bit of paper) obviously overrides the need to have a ppl?? then back to oxford and get an IR. cpl + multi ir = fATPL. you dont need a ppl if you have to fATPL. but dont forget, you dont get to exercise the privelage of your licence till you have it in your paw and have signed it. its the way it works and every FTO has to abide by the same pain in the arse rules. so ya, no ppl but a nice shiny fATPL instead, much better to go to your local flying club with that and ask to take a 172 for an hour round the sky isnt than with your PPL!?!

[Aim High]

the multi cpl integrated route could lead to you not having SEP in your licence

which means no SEP flying without SEP Class rating test :(

[THRILLSEEKER]

...integrated students are taught to be professional pilots in an accelerated and structured environment that weeds out those that can't handle it.

So you are saying that Joe Bloggs who has given Oxford over 60k is turned away half way through the course because he/she cannot handle the workload? I think not!

Oxford aviation is a business and they will gladly take every penny from anyone that thinks that they can afford it.

[mad_jock]

So what you are saying is that the CPL examiners don't actually know what they are doing when they pass a modular pilot. I think not. You are making out that the examiners arn't doing thier jobs properly if you are saying non-professional pilots are getting through the test.

And when did the single pilot IR have anything to do with being a professional pilot. Its a rating pure and simple you meet the standard and you pass. Be it PPL or CPL. Or are you telling me that intergrated pilots only get first time passes. There isn't a difference between a PPL IR test and a CPL IR test.

The core knowledge of being a "airline" pilot isn't even touched on in either CPL or IR. The flying aspect of my job proberly only takes about 15% of my workload. In fact thats the easy bit.

I have seen Intergrated people struggle with type rating course and modular. Which is why I suspect that airlines don't really care these days or want the pilot to take the risk on the course. If you spoke to a few TRE's and line trainers in the airlines you would understand why I am saying there is no difference. If you took a cross section of fresh cpl/IR's going through type and line training you would have some that will struggle on various bits and others that don't. With no colleration at all on how they were trained. You would have more luck seeing how current they were before they started the course.

There is a tremendous difference between the students produced by modular and integrated programs at OAT.


I would agree with you there, from the few I have had in the cockpit on check flights. Couldn't make a command call if thier life depended on it. Had always relied on the modular trained FI's to hold there hands in the past. No different handling skills or provided any super natural navigation ability that I could tell.

They did have an attitude which was amusing about what they thought they were good at. In reality they were exactly the same standard in VFR SEP machines as the PPL students.

So I don't think I am doing anybody a disfavour telling them that they are paying way to much being trained Intergrated. You get very little benefit for your 35k of cash.

And BTW some of the things that OAT beat out of them as bad habits. Guess what they get retaught them later as the way to do them. Some of the practises at OAT are brought in from BA SOP's which were meant to be set up so you could have minimal SOP differences between flying a 747 and a turboprop. Its just not the way the rest of the world do it.

[expedite08]

I would agree with you there, from the few I have had in the cockpit on check flights. Couldn't make a command call if thier life depended on it. Had always relied on the modular trained FI's to hold there hands in the past. No different handling skills or provided any super natural navigation ability that I could tell.
They did have an attitude which was amusing about what they thought they were good at. In reality they were exactly the same standard in VFR SEP machines as the PPL students.

Mad Jock,

I take it by this your talking about the Integrated lot, I hope!

If so I can see where you are comming from. You do look around at some of the individuals at some of these integrated schools and wonder how they look after and mange themselves! Let alone a jet/TP full of people!

Integrated has the problem of spoon feeding from zero to hero. Modular people have to use initiative, nine times out of ten, manage a family / job at the same time as training. Modular have to make decisions on thier next step in training, what to do for productive hour building etc etc. need I go on!

I believe the integrated people are exempt from hour building!!! Hmmm no opportunity to be let off on thier own , gain experience in making decisions, gain initiative, or confidence in thier new skills!

Cheers

Expedite :ok:

[Gullyone]

When the airline take on an OAT intergated graduate they know what type of person they are employing, and that has nothing to do with flying skills. They are looking at the whole package and the OAT graduate is kind of "cloned" which is what an airline wants ie, less risk. Mad jock and co sound like not the kind of people that you would want to take a risk with. Am I wrong ??

[Regis Potter]

sqwkvfr

A Phoenix based flight instructor who has trained both modular & integrated? Is it reasonable to assume then that you are employed by OATC?

[mad_jock]

yes its a broad sweep.

Its very easy to focus on OAT due to the marketing spin.

Why do you say its less risk Gully?

Having someone who looks at the risks and takes an educated risk assessment of the risk then takes the most economic courses of action.

Being able to listen to other peoples arguments and if you don't agree with them produce a valid argument in return why you disagree with them.

Being able to take other peoples points of view and if you can see thier point adjust your views accordingly. Its a CRM thing don't worry many don't.

And if your really disagree with someone standing your ground and telling them you don't accept it and you won't accept it.

All part and parcel of being a Commander which is what you really are, thats what your CPL is meant to mean. There shouldn't be such a thing as a First officer. It should be a Captain under training.

These days with most of the Jobs that are on the go for low hour pilots you are looking at command in 1-3 years with under 4000 hours under your belt. The old legacy carriers who prefer intergrated (which I think is down to 2 now BMI and BA) you are looking at decades to command plenty of time to get bollocked to within an inch of your life until you get it right. These legacy people have now learned that even as nice as it was getting wined and dinned on your money there is actually alot less risk taking on a previously type rated line trained pilot. So they do.

And strangley enough your professional competence is usually related to your RT on the line. If you are gash and bollock's at your RT you can be the best handling pilot in the world and still get abuse every day. You can be slack dash and just within limits all the time and not get a single bad word if your RT is spot on. And getting the bulk of your training done in the US will not do you any favours.

Maybe it's just that I am professional pilot with 2 type ratings under my belt and have over 2000 hours commercial experence and see what come's in door and have listened to the LHS bitching like hell when instead of sitting on thier bum drinking tea they have to wake up and actually monitor whats going on for a change.
The bitching applys however you got trained some folk have it others don't for a while. Some are very unhappy FO's for life because they really don't see what the problem is and they wouldn't have the situation awarness to know which direction the alt is in. Or they are just bone idle and won't do the book work.

The problem is that the job you are expected to do is nothing like what you have been trained for. It is nothing like you expected. Your main job isn't steering the plane its just a bonus which makes life fun. Planes don't fly on jet A they fly on paper. There are 10's of people who have an input on your working day most of which to have a clue what you really do. The cpl/IR and MCC is mearly a tick in a box. Apart from pointing and talking the rest of the real skills are learned on the job.

[Gullyone]

When I say "less risk" I am talking about the EMPLOYER.

[geraldn]

Did all my training at Oxford, theory and flight training was top notch, and the instructors and staff where very helpful. One thing you should keep in mind is that OAT is also an integrated school, so obviously as a MOD student you do feel slightly sidelined and need to use your own initiative on certain matters since you are not held by the hand(no offence to integrated guys). having said that you are paying much less and its a good experience for character building.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Yeah but I've been a flying instructor for Integrated and Modular and plain old PPL.

In each job all I have been paid to do is get Bloggs though his CPL skilltest and then his IR. Thats it. That's all the student wants, thats all the CFI wants.

It really doesn't matter how the training is organised. The test is the same so the ability has to be same or else a FAIL.

There was no added input for Integrated students. How could we? None of the instructors had ever been airline pilots at that stage. Now that I have been one for 7 years and a Skipper for 2 I now fly with Modular and Integrated first officers. I have taught at both small schools and one of the big three and have mates who have done the same.

Its bollocks.

An integrated student knows diddly squat what a modular student does.

Bottom line.

Fact.

Cheers

WWW

[Gullyone]

WWW, I dont understand your last post?

[Caudillo]

Now that I have been one for 7 years and a Skipper for 2 I now fly with Modular and Integrated first officers. I have taught at both small schools and one of the big three and have mates who have done the same.
Its bollocks.
An integrated student knows diddly squat what a modular student does.
Bottom line.
Fact.
Cheers
WWW

A question, just for my own edification: at what point does an FO stop being a modular FO or integrated FO and progress to being an FO? The thing is, I've never seen the distinction noted in either of the airlines I've worked for and I'm wondering if I'm missing a trick here.

In Fact, does the distinction still apply once you've made command? Is it something we need to get clear in the briefing room if we haven't flown together before?

The simple fact, whilst I appreciate your experience, is that views like this are just a simplistic aviation form of class antagonism. Whether someone is a pi$$poor pilot owes more to the individual than whether they trained integrated or modular, have a civilian or military background or whatever else you may chose as your particular bete noir. Perhaps it'd be better if we judged an individual on their merits rather than if their path to work next to us differs from our own.

[dartagnan]

"there are no good pilot, only old pilots"

what is Oxford???it is a town west of London, right?if I go visit Oxford, can I write it on my CV;)?

[Gary Lager]

An integrated student knows diddly squat what a modular student does.

Bottom line.

Fact.
Nope, sorry: opinion.

Caudillo distills the pointlessness of this argument quite well.

I've flown with some awesome operators from both backgrounds, and some who have struggled with airline flying from both too. Particular training school is nothing - what matters is personal dedication to learning and training and a professional attitude which begins on day one wherever you train and ends when you retire.

Opinion!

Cheers,

Gary

[mcgoo]

"there are no good pilot, only old pilots"




I might be being thick here but can anyone shed any light on the above?

[Gullyone]

In my 20000+ hrs I have never thought to ask where my flight deck colleague did his training. After all who cares, apart from a few posters in this thread.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Fellas. I have been a flying instructor training both Modular and Integrated students. Therefore I know with laser like clarity that there was not one extra thing I was asked to teach an Integrated one over a Modular one. Nothing. Nadda. Nil.

So on the flying side you all have around 180hrs and have passed the CPL skilltest and the IRT. Neither camp has better stick and rudder skills nor any superior decision making skills.

On the groundschool side of things there simply is no difference between the grades achieved by say OATS or CABAIR or Jerez when compared to other well established groundschools. If I were forced to put myself back through groundschool tomorrow I would chose Bristol myself.

The people who pass through Oxford are just people. Some plonkers, some dim, some bright, some hot shots. In pretty much the same proportion as pass through any school.

Their training is reasonably well organised along the lines of a sausage factory and courses tend to run close to time and budget. So thats nice for them.

But don't think your instructors are that experienced. Just look at the minimum experience levels required in their job ads.

So please. There are pros and cons to going Integrated or Modular. But any claims that the Integrated student is somehow skilled or less of a training risk is laughable.

Couple of months on the line and you can't tell the difference between Integrated, Modular, Flying Instructor or Turboprop pilot is my observation.

Cheers

WWW

[rusty_y2k2]

I might be being thick here but can anyone shed any light on the above?


I imagine it is inferring that the only "good" pilots are the ones who survived long enough to become old pilots...


Bit of an odd saying in my opinion.

[cfwake]

is there anyone planning to start app 273 on march 26th? am starting either then or april 30th!

chris

[woodsey]

OAT quote £65k for their integrated course. Any idea how much the average student should budget for on top of this approximately to be safe?

[TheOne83]

you could add the costs of living/food/extras around £5-10 max i believe?? :}

depends on where you live also..some weekly rates for your room at OAT are 150£ per week, 110£ or 100£..so
150x52 weeks that a year has =7800£
110x52 " " " " =5720£
100x52 " " " " =5200£

Of course you have to have in mind that you will not spend the entire 52weeks of a year at OAT.. u will go home for christmas and stuff like that.. but i believe the APP takes around 12 to 18 months to complete so.. that plus food.. it's not cheap. Many students get to hire some places out of OAT after beeing on site a period, my suggestion is that you start looking.. some APP students hire out their hiring house of 4,6,8 students etc during the period they are on the states..many possibilities you have to get it a bit cheaper.. when it comes to thoose prices i can't help u on that..

cheers; :ok:

[woodsey]

Sorry I'm not talking about living expenses. I understand that most people won't pass all the exams/tests first time with the hours included as part of the fee. So the extra cost the 'average' student would need for any extra flight time/retests etc

Thanks

[TheOne83]

woops.. sorry mate, missunderstood you there.. anyway, if any one else was wondering there he/she goes with an answer concerning extra living costs..:p

[oneip01]

Hi,

I'm considering doing my training at Oxford via the integrated course. Could anyone shed any light on the type of aptitude tests used in the selection process? Pilapt?

Also does anyone know how the pass standard compares to say CTC? I guess what I'm trying to say is - Are more people generally rejected than accepted?

Any info would be much appreciated

Cheers

[cfwake]

oneip1

I haven't done the CTC tests but if you want to go to OAT, then you'll have to do them anyway so it doesn't really make much difference how many people pass in comparison, but just for your reference it seems to be about 60 -70%. I did them and pretty much got top marks so they can't be too hard!!

good luck!

[Katherine Alexandra]

oneip1,

Oxford's pass rate is around 60%, but it obviously varies from Skills Assessment to Skills Assessment: on my assessment, pass rate was 20% but I know of someone whose assessment pass rate was 100% - it's all up to you, but it shouldn't be too tricky!

Have a look at the EPST website (http://www.epst.com/) which runs the COMPASS test at Oxford, as they have a test you can try which is fairly similar to COMPASS!

[skelly2005]

Hi there people. Im thinking about starting the integrated course at Oxford this year and im interested to hear from anybody that has completed this before. I dont want to start a thread about integrated vs modular because this is the route I have decided to take and im fortunate enough to have parents who support me fully in way of financial backing so please dont get on about modular vs integrated. What I would like to know is what its really like from somebody who has done it before. What are the training facilities in Arizona like that they use. Any information regarding the course at all would be great. For example what time does ground school start and end, are you expected to stay on campus when at OAT??? Everything and anything appreciated. :ok:

[PlaneHomerS]

Oxford Threads:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=234938&highlight=oxford

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=204436&highlight=oxford

This post is especially eye opening:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2942801&postcount=95

A few things you wont hear from Oxford but I wish I knew prior to going there. Their average course size is 25 people per month, that equates to 300 students a year. If you look at the “Employment Statistics” section on their website, graduate jobs for 2006 currently stands at 141 that equates to a successful graduate employment figure of 47%

From my experience Oxford career services should only be claiming that they have managed to gain employment for the following companies BA, BA Connect, Excel, FlyBe and Jet2, which is a grand total of 61 jobs (21%) according to their latest web site figures (2006) If you take into account the GECAT scheme where you have to pay ₤500.00 for an assessment and then fund your own type rating, then you have BMI, BMI Baby, Easyjet and Thomas Cook which totals 33 (11%) but this is more a GECAT success than Oxford career services. Combining these 2 figures together (being generous towards OAT) it comes to 32% graduate employment. A further 47 (16%) of graduates have managed to gain employment from their own initiatives. This leaves 159 (52%) students without jobs, zero help from Oxford careers services and a whopping debt yet you have paid over the odds for a careers service that is no where near as successful as it claims to be.

To be in this 32% there are some un-written rules that you will not be aware of when you start your APP course. To stand any chance of the selection board giving you a recommendation at the end of your training you need to have ground school first time passes with an average of 85+% you will need “3” or better in all flight tests and a first series IR. Any mistakes along the way during your training will rule you out of receiving any recommendation from OAT’s selection board. Even if you do achieve this standard your face needs to fit, they have to “decide” to like you and you have no control over this.

You need to also be aware of the EPST (European Pilot Selection & Training) Dutch contingent, they get preferential treatment especially when being put forward for jobs due to contractual obligations between then and Oxford, so any English student is immediately disadvantaged.

The 16% who find employment through their own imitative were binned by Oxford yet when Oxford hear of their success, they suddenly pull your name out of the bin and proudly put it on their “Graduate Jobs Board” and put you in as a statistic on their web site as if you are one of their success stories.

Overall you have a less than 1 in 3 chance of successfully being employed through OAT

The actual school and their training I have no problem with however I take issue with the misleading marketing spin they employ, you believe that you are paying a premium for the use of OAT’s many contacts in the airline industry, their careers service and the so called employment boom that is apparently about to happen in the next month or two (after 2 years of this it wears thin!!)

If I knew all these facts before going to OAT, I would have perhaps gone elsewhere and definitely have gone down the Modular route as the truth about the integrated course is just hype and does not deliver a job in the fashion they would have you believe. Taking the cheaper modular route will mean that you will still spend the ₤60,000+ but included in this cost will be a type rating that you will most probably have to pay for.

Other schools integrated courses may be similar, I don’t know, I can only comment on my own experience, This post is not intended to just slate Oxford, I feel it is important for any wannabe to know that before parting with a huge sum of money that you know precisely what you are going to get for that money and the fact that there is a very good chance that you will graduate and then be left to your own devices with a monumental debt. You very quickly become the forgotten Oxford student; there are many of us out there!

One final piece of advice: Read between the lines of all the marketing spin thrown at you! At the end of the day it’s your decision and you need to be able to live with that.


http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2943457&postcount=99

I am not going to be too specific… to protect my identity (just in case they ever do feel the need to give me one of their valued recommendations, I won’t hold my breath LOL!!!)

I consider my results at Oxford as more than reasonable.. I passed all ground school exams with and average between 80 to 85% (cant be too specific) had a couple of resits that were passed at the next try. On the flying side of things I passed all flight test's first time and have a 1st series IR. I thought my report from the school read quite well, I did not cause any trouble and got on with everyone both OAT staff and students. Even though my report reads quite well, it does not read well enough for the OAT graduate services to consider putting me forward to any airlines. So apart from a couple of % and resits at ground school, I was not that far away from the unwritten rules I mentioned previously.

When you first graduate you call the careers team weekly all upbeat but as time progresses you realise they are just fobbing you off and that you are just wasting your time and that if you didn’t call them, they certainly wouldn’t call you!!

To date I have still not had a single interview, having the Oxford APP name on my CV has counted for absolutely nothing. If you have to send out CV’s on your own it really is a total waste of time, even getting a rejection letter seems like an achievement! Around 2 years on (not being specific on time) I never once got a phone call from their careers team, I hope that some how some day I can achieve that break myself.

So what do I do in the mean time? Well you have to live and somehow pay back a mountain of debt so I now working in a office from 9-5 and 4 evenings through the week I work at my local tesco's stacking shelves. This is just so i can keep on top off my debt and trying so very hard to save some more money so that i can start a FIC to keep aviation experience current, its hard to spend another 6k on a job that will not pay, but what else can I do, Im on my own. I have spoken to local companies and they have basically said that once qualified they “may” be able to give me a few sunday afternoon students.

The only advice I can give you is make sure that you are meet or are well above their unwritten rules, otherwise you’ll be in a very similar boat as are a lot of APP graduates

Rob’d


:ok:

[asuweb]

skelly2005.

My advice - visit the school, and talk to the current students there. Visit the ask Oxford forums, there is mountains of information to be found there regarding the course etc.

By all means, wait for responses from people on this forum, but don't base your decisions purely on what you read, either on here, or any other forum.

Facilities in Goodyear:

On the whole, pretty good. There were some teething problems in the first few months of operation, however most, if not all, of these have now been sorted. The accommodation is comfortable, the food varies from day to day, but is usually ok and reasonably priced. Transport is probably the biggest problem, with the base being fairly remote. There are cars and minibuses provided for students, and the availability is improving. As for the local area, plenty to see, do, eat if you want.

The instruction in Goodyear is on the whole pretty good.

Ground School:

Couldn't have done it without the help and support of the staff - enough said.

You don't have to stay onsite in Oxford (unless you are on a sponsored course). A lot of people opt to stay in halls for a couple of weeks, and then seek alternate accommodation. Some arrange the alternate accommodation in advance and don't bother with halls. There are plenty of houses in the local area, cheaper than halls. The closer to the airport you live, the better.

[asuweb]

PlaneHomerS

Is it really necessary to quote complete posts?? A link would have done, those interested are capable of clicking on the links and reading it themselves.

[Marvo]

I thought he did provide links ! Great post..

[PlaneHomerS]

I thought he did provide links ! Great post..

I did! cheers :ok:

PlaneHomerS

Is it really necessary to quote complete posts??


Yes it was quite necessary.

Thank you.

:)

[Katherine Alexandra]

By all means, listen to what those who haven't got on with OAT say but remember how many people do well from them. The OAT Forums are going to be a better place to get objective advice about the place.

In terms of employment, OAT by no means advocate that they get 100% of graduates into employment...the statistic quoted by them is 90% within 12 months. That is into aviation and, as far as I can tell, into the RHS. 47% is rubbish. Apart from anything else, there 166 students employed in 2006. Maximum course size is 24, equating to 288 students IF every course was full. I know for a fact that they weren't. Thus, if you also include the 2% failure rate (makes little difference, but just remember it's there), their employment rate is FAR higher than 47%! :rolleyes:


If you want accurate employment rates, ask the company itself. They ARE a business and, as such, there are things they can't lie about!

[SinBin]

Er.....I think GECAT place a hell of a lot of OAT grads! So none of it quite adds up. I ain't knocking OAT, I couldn't really give a monkeys! But I think they take a lot of credit where it isn't deserved.

[asuweb]

Well said Katherine, couldn't agree more!

SinBin: OAT don't hide that fact!! Yes, a lot of OAT grads get placed through GECAT, that's not OAT's fault, just the way the industry is. If all airlines paid for type-ratings, then this wouldn't be the case.

[SinBin]

Like I said, I'm not knocking them. Just credit should be where it's due! I also said, I don't really care!

[PlaneHomerS]

Yes, a lot of OAT grads get placed through GECAT, that's not OAT's fault, just the way the industry is.


Indeed you are correct. It's not their fault.

I was offered a place @ Oxford as a APP student after passing the selection tests. Oxford is a fine institution and i felt they could get me from a to b with the minimal amount of time.

This was in the early days of me researching aviation. However after allot of questions to OAT i learn't about the above quoted fact. Now as i said to the OAT, "if i am going to have to pay for a type rating then why don't i go down the modular route, save thousands and have enough to pay for a couple of type ratings?"

Off course the team tried to justify why i should go integrated but after going through their arguments i logically came to the conclusion that i am going modular. I know i can pass GECAT's assessment (as they use the same assessment as OAT).

Off course i could have been one of the lucky ones that got into BA and not have to pay for the type rating but still 80k is a steep amount of money when i know i can get there for less.


Good luck to anyone going there.

rock on

+PHS:ok:

[Adj]

Hi all
In answer to some of the previous posts...
I have finished my training at OAT. Finance wise - not many needed extra training - maybe the odd hour here or there as sqkvfr stated.
The costs i can think of would be - failing an exam so paying for a resit.
The the major cost would be is you fail or Partial your IR which would be the same at any training facility.

As regards total expenditure - i budgeted about 15k on top of the course costs and i have to say i managed to stick to that pretty well! :)

I have noticed quite a few people on here with a huge chip on their shoulder against OAT. Quoting employment statistics etc
The fact is - you can only find these things out from FTO's such as OAT.
What is the employment success of modular students?!?!
You can't give an answer to that question as the training is done in so many different places. Saying OAT has a low employment % may be one thing but i seriously doubt the Modular % will be any higher!!!
I honestly couldn't care less about Modular or Integrated personally.
I chose what was best for me and im happy with my choice so i suggest people choose what fits them and their budget best!
The only way a student is added to the employment statistics is by them notifying OAT of their job. How else can OAT know that 6 months down the line a graduate has a job as im sure the airline won't make the phone call to say!
Then there are those who either did badly on the groundschool phase or the flying phase!
My point is - People are far to critical when everything is laid out in black and white. I seriously wish i had a crystal ball to see how many people undertook training at other organisations and have sucessfully got an airline job - that would make interesting reading!

Fact of the matter is - IF you work hard and get the results - your readily employable with many airlines!

[asuweb]

Here Here! Great post

[skelly2005]

Hi people, im due to start at oxford in sept this year just wondering if anybody else is gunna be starting arounf this time. Im going to be doing the integrated course (please no comments on this as its the path i've chosen and dont care what you think), and yes I did get help from mammy and daddy, but yeah who is starting in sept time on there integrated course.

[Tomomac33]

First things first, go easy on me - there are some rather aggressive comments on this forum and at the end of the day - my knowledge is very limited and I am looking for ADVICE!!
When I read through ALL of these replies, the arguments always seem to be either " Modular or Integrated " OR "this school or that school ", nothing ever seems to be mentioned with regards to the actual individual!
The point imp trying to make, based on what I have read is that it doesn't seem to matter how you do your training! - If you have the "overall package required” - then you WILL succeed!! If however you don’t have this natural ability - Then you WON’T SUCCEED (with odd exceptions!).
I’m not talking about the ability to just "fly a plane", but the personality to socialise, make important decisions, be a manager / Leader, have common sense, show authority when required, etc.
Also, nothing is ever mentioned with regards to "what else the individual has to offer " as an example for instance, surely having 8 years engineering experience, degrees, management experience, or showing determination in raising funds by property development etc. has to be a clear advantage over someone who was fortunate enough to have money given for training from there parents??
Using OAT as an example only!!! - What I am interested to know is out of all these people that don’t get jobs, or find it hard, after completing some of the "best training in the world" - could it be because they have very limited knowledge in other areas?? You wouldn’t go on a "two week management course" and expect to walk into a £50k senior management role! -
Please take this post light hearted!!! - I have to stress that I DO NOT KNOW WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT!! but I’m hoping that this will open up for some constructive discussion.
Thanks in advance
Tom

[TelBoy]

Well said Tom. Although I don't know what I'm talking about either, a well known airline was recentley quoted as saying that "there is no shortage of pilots, just a shortage of the right kind of pilots". Says it all really.

Doing a fATP - ground exams, flying, IR practical tests etc seems daugnting and a real acheavment, but when applying for that job - who are you talking to? Think about it. Also when you get that job that is when your learning will START.

I could write loads, but but won't bore you. Just step back, put yourself in there shoes and look at the whole picture.

[PlaneHomerS]

Hi all
In answer to some of the previous posts...
I have finished my training at OAT. Finance wise - not many needed extra training - maybe the odd hour here or there as sqkvfr stated.
The costs i can think of would be - failing an exam so paying for a resit.
The the major cost would be is you fail or Partial your IR which would be the same at any training facility.

As regards total expenditure - i budgeted about 15k on top of the course costs and i have to say i managed to stick to that pretty well! :)

I have noticed quite a few people on here with a huge chip on their shoulder against OAT. Quoting employment statistics etc
The fact is - you can only find these things out from FTO's such as OAT.
What is the employment success of modular students?!?!
You can't give an answer to that question as the training is done in so many different places. Saying OAT has a low employment % may be one thing but i seriously doubt the Modular % will be any higher!!!
I honestly couldn't care less about Modular or Integrated personally.
I chose what was best for me and im happy with my choice so i suggest people choose what fits them and their budget best!
The only way a student is added to the employment statistics is by them notifying OAT of their job. How else can OAT know that 6 months down the line a graduate has a job as im sure the airline won't make the phone call to say!
Then there are those who either did badly on the groundschool phase or the flying phase!
My point is - People are far to critical when everything is laid out in black and white. I seriously wish i had a crystal ball to see how many people undertook training at other organisations and have sucessfully got an airline job - that would make interesting reading!

Fact of the matter is - IF you work hard and get the results - your readily employable with many airlines!


Good post! So how much did you spend in the end? 80k? and have you got a job yet?

good luck...:O

[Bandit650]

Does anyone have an idea what this airline recommendation board (or whatever it is) at OAT actually regard as being recommendable?

Very high theory grades, exceptional flying ability, jolly good chap, commitment, dedication etc etc, all of the above...or is it something a little more subtle and subjective???? (perhaps looking/sounding like their stereotype OAT branded graduate???)

Does anyone who has been recommended, and since when straight into a job, have an idea why they were recommended??

Am very curious about this...

[Adj]

Hi
I think the total cost is around the 75k mark as the course was cheaper when i started nearly 2 years ago now - i would budget about 80k though to be on the safe side so you have access to a bit extra cash if neeeded.
As regards employment, i have been to an Interview and passed a sim check so awaiting my start date at present.

The Oat recommendation board is a team of OAT staff that meet to review graduates for recommendation to the airlines. These borads so im told only occur when an airline comes to OAT after grads. Firstly the Airline will state their requirements to OAT in terms of Groundschool average required and flying results. OAT then compile a shortlist of possible candiadates that meet these requirements. Those that OAT think best suit this partcicular airline (eg. could be someone who lives very close to the airport the airline is based at) ar then recommended to the airline. OAT will only recommend people they think will do the airline well and pass their training without problems. Its on OAT's head that their grads they recommend do well as thats what keeps the airlines coming back to get more and more grads agin and again.

adj :)

[WHOOPEYDOO]

"The fact is - you can only find these things out from FTO's such as OAT."

WHAT A LOAD OF CRAP, do you really think that phoning a FTO they are gonna say "yeah our stats are not that good out of 300 people a year passing thorugh the school we are placing less than 50%" I DONT THINK SO, they will distort and big up their stats as best they can. OAT were quick to get rid of their 2005 stats from their web site when they realised that their 2006 stats were WORSE and the job market is supposed to be BETTER

"The only way a student is added to the employment statistics is by them notifying OAT of their job."

AGAIN WHAT TOTAL CRAP, you clearly know nothing, I cant believe that you went there, the second OAT find out you have a job they boast about you like they placed you, fact is loads of ex-OAT grads get their own job but dont notify OAT as they felt totally let down by OAT and got no recoginition or help from OAT despite having very acceptable results. What ACTUALLY happens is that when a graduate gets a job, The airline employing them has to do a 5 year security check which means calling OAT and checking that the student did indeed go there, so then OAT go CA-CHING theres a student who has gained a job, lets stick them up on our graduate success job and claim them as one of our success stories even though OAT gave the student zero help and binned them.


"Fact of the matter is - IF you work hard and get the results - your readily employable with many airlines!"

TOTAL B*****ks sorry mate but your really talking out your arse, I cant quite believe that you went to OAT for you really are talking crap, I know many graduates from the APP program "what the airlines want" who have had to give up on their dream over a year on where they have had ZERO help from OAT, and I can tell you that those to whom I am referring all a first series IR, and no more than 2 resits in the ground school. They have had to give up on the dream and enter another industry with a colossal OAT debt on their shoulders.

I myself got over 80% GS avg, first time pass in ALL flying tests and yet got NO help, not one recommendation from OAT, I managed to get myself a job, completely no thanks to OAT, and because of the security checks OAT found out about my success and subsequently put me up on their OAT Graduate success success board for all to see, yet had I not succeeded myself I would be a piece of sh1t in their bin whith no chance of employment through them.

FACT is they tell you one thing when signing up but deliver (or should I say dont deliver) something completely different. FACT is I know may ex-OAT graduates who all did pretty well throughout the course yet upon completion received f*** all help from OAT Graduate services. I have read previous posts and there is one from Robbed60grand who offers a very honest read, one that reads true to many.

Also in terms of the numbers of OAT grads who go to BA, for 2007 they placed 27 students, whoo hoo, considering their average course is 25+ per month, approximately 2 people per course meet the OAT BA requirement.
Does that entice you to go to OAT????? Yes I went there and paid top money for APP believing that they would get me the job, I performed well through out but reality is that they did nothing for me and now a year on from leaving OAT, I have met loads of other grads who have had NO help and cannot get a job, having OAT on your CV counts for bugger all and even though i have found a job through my own efforts, I truly wish I had gone modular not at OAT, saved a small fortune and still got the job under my own merits, what really annoys me is the fact that I believed them, spent soo much going to OAT, got ZERO help, got a job on my own and then they put me on their graduates job like they got me the job, b*****ds, am I bitter? absolutely, and rightly so.
Whoopeydoo

[Gullyone]

After reading the previous post, even if you were the best pilot in the world I would not be inclined to offer you a job.

[Bandit650]

Seems to me that a lot of people are fundamentally misguided in their expectations frankly. I read time and time again "they did nothing for me...I was on my own" well, wake up and smell the coffee. Welcome to the real world.

If you go into these courses with naive, high expectations about what someone else is going to do for you...well, guess what, chances are you going to end up very dissappointed and airing your sentiments as such on PPRuNE...

[WHOOPEYDOO]

I have my job thanks and it was dam hard earnt no thanks to Oxford, thats my point, when youve been through the whole post-app thing and time goes by and you get zero support from OAT, you arent best pleased especially from what they lead you to believe when you sign up.

[WHOOPEYDOO]

Im not saying that I expect them to present me with a job with BA upon completion but when your signing up and they say "We'll do our utmost to get you a job when you finish", you expect "something" from them.

Its easy when you havent gone through getting a fATPL to see FTOs with rosey tinted goggles, when you get to the graduated side of the fence and time passes, you'll get to understand what I mean. As for smelling the coffee, I smell it alot more than you do. Having been through the course and out the other end, Im alot more in the real world than you.

[PlaneHomerS]

WHOOPEYDOO man congrats on finding a job off your own back! :p but in your opinion did it help having OAT stamped on your CV?

[WHOOPEYDOO]

Thanks, that is a very good question, I suppose in all honesty it cant have done any harm, that said a modular OAT stamp I think would have gone as far as an APP stamp.

In my opinion you pay extra for the APP to get OATs help and guidance whereas when you dont get it you might as well have saved 20k and still have their modular stamp on your cv.

One thing I would say though is having the APP stamp + first series IR etc etc on the CV, still resulted in loads of airlines simply ignoring your cv alltogether......

[skylog]

Just a few lines about what i experienced at OAT.

OAT got me from A-Z via the modular route, in hindsight i would probably go there again since the training was top notch, training standards were high, tolerances were restrictive which undoubtedly made me a better pilot, staff were helpful, i met a few interesting albeit entertaining people and made a lot of friends.

Regarding career help i didnt get any(i was modular), other than CV help and occasional correspondence with advice and updates from N.M.(A true gentleman), having said that i know a few APP guys who got recommended to the majors even though they had a 2nd series pass and you wouldnt want to spend a minute stuck in a ''tin can'' with them, While other APP students who had exceptional results are still waiting.
Highlighting the fact that there still is a hint of nepotism when it comes to the recommendations board.

OAT did include My recent employment in their web page statistics, even though i got it through my sheer determination, however i have no problem with that since they do have a disclaimer in full view.

I doubt that having OAT on my CV helped in me securing a job however going there surely instilled in me some basic principles, techniques and airmanship which i found really helpfull in subsequent interviews, checkrides and day to day flying.

As i said OAT was and probably still is a great school and it is a business at the end of the day, your outcome depends on what your attitude is like and how you deal with people and situations.

[Gullyone]

As i said OAT was and probably still is a great school and it is a business at the end of the day, your outcome depends on what your attitude is like and how you deal with people and situations

That says it all

[Tomomac33]

Hi Whoopeydoo,

I understand if you don’t want to answer this, but I’m just curious to know (politely asking) if you have any "non aviation related" work experience, such as management, engineering, marketing, team leader skills, eg eg..... Or any academic qualifications??

I am aware that this is a personal Q. so completely understand if choose not to answer.

The reason why I’m asking is I want to know if this may have helped you - or possibly hindered you??

I have also been informed from reliable sources that if you don’t get 85% or over in your ground school OAT won’t recommend you - is here any truth in this??

Thanks

Tom

[WHOOPEYDOO]

Tom,
yeah I had previous professional work experience not in aviation, "team work" - this has got to help for CRM. I also have a degree. Having both of these things can only help you. You have experienced working situations/scenarios which tells them more about you than if you were fresh out of school, straight into training school and then looking for the job with zero "life skills" that said perhaps some airlines want such people. It depends on the views of the recruiters at the particular airline.

85% is indeed the require average to get OAT to put you forward, you would think that good flying grades would counter this requirement but it does not.

Hope that helps
W.D.

[Adj]

Its quite interesting to read someone rip apart my post!! :ugh:
However, I still stand by what i say!
Oh and i do know what im talking about unlike some of what you have put
e.g 85% is not the benchmark - its what an airline stipulates as its requirements - a close friend has below 85% and has been recommended as its within the airlines criteria! His flying grades were fantastic but his groundschool wasn't great. Touche i guess!!

I did write a very lengthy reply but then i thought - is this really worth replying to someone with such a bad attitude?! Your the last person i have to explain myself to or my knowledge to!

As you quoted me as saying - "Fact of the matter is - IF you work hard and get the results - your readily employable with many airlines!"
It still stands 100% - the difference being a persons attitude which is something you don't get a mark for and can hinder many good pilots in getting a job!

I would certainly suggest that your attitude is the reason OAT did not recommend you and i can't say i blame them.

Anyway, on a lighter note im always happy to hear to low hours grads finding employment so well done

adj

[Bandit650]

Can anyone who has done the full-time CPL/MEIR package at OAT recently give me an idea of how many hours per day flying is done? I've heard its one trip a day ... that correct???

[potkettleblack]

Can't speak for OAT myself but 1 flight per day would be the norm for the UK. When you consider that you will need to get into the school, have a cuppa, get the weather, read the notams, see which aircraft you have (or don't have as the case may be) check the tech logs, then brief for an hour, do the walk around/pre flight checks, then fly for say 1-2 hours, then do the tech logs, have a cuppa, have a debrief, maybe talk about tomorrows flight then get ready to back seat your mate who will more than likely be doing the same thing....

I can only remember a couple of times doing 2 flights in the one day and that was to catch up on the CPL after we lost some time due to poor weather. I was absolutely knackered afterwards. Professional training costs a LOT of money so be careful not to overdo things as redoing exercises gets very expensive. Enjoy.

[garywoodrow]

As im nearing the end of my first year of AS I have been looking into my options. I will be applying at schools the day I leave college :} but after looking into the options im still stuck for choice.

After looking at OAT and there brochures and searching this forum I still cannot find the answer... OAT, Do you get what you pay for? I realise the cost is much higher than other schools, so do you get better training, or more likely to land a job, or should i just go for the cheapest option. I dont mind taking a loan for the expensive OAT as long as i get the best training etc.

I have also looked into FTE, total costs nearing £65k, whereas OAT is nearly £75-80k. Im really stuck here, and dont really get any help with the decision at home. So is it best to go for cheapest, or best (if OAT is better training etc)

I would really appreciate any help on this, and before i get redirected to stickies and other threads and told to search, i already have but still couldnt find anything to help. :O ;)

Regards,
Gary Woodrow

[SingSong]

I doubt anyone will be able to give an unbiased opinion on such a subject. There will be ardent oxford supporters and naysayers. The only useful advice i can offer is to find the schools which most appeal to you, and visit them. You will learn nothing about how you feel for a school until you visit it.

Oxford, from what I saw while there had fantastic facilities and was very professional, but since I haven't studied there i can't give you any idea of training level although I'm certain it's very good.

Again I honestly suggest visiting the major schools (IMO Cabair, CTC, FTE, OAT, AFT but there are many more good ones) and making your mind up on how you feel about the school. They could have the greatest instructors in the world but if you aren't happy with the surroundings chances are you won't do as well as you could.

All the best.

[garywoodrow]

thanks for the advice, is it possible to visit the schools now? Or can you only visit on the selection days?

Gary

[chlong]

just phone them and arrange a visit, it is normally not a problem as its just the marketing department that show you around. good luck in your choice. :rolleyes:

[Murray_NN]

Hi Gary,

I would recommend OATS because of the following:
A) The best instructors. (In terms of experience, quality of instruction and subject specialists.)
B) The facilities. (The flight ops is designed like an airline ops department. There is free internet cafe. There is free access to 14 simulators, free of charge, 24hrs a day.)
C) There is ''onsite'' CAA exam centre and resident CAA flight examiners who conduct CPL/me and IR tests. (You do not have to travel for your ground exams as all is held in-house.)
D) The OATS on your CV bit. (I am still sceptical about this, although I am open to persuasion.)
E) The MCC & JOT is best available in the league of FTOs. (Again experienced instructors here come to mind. Ex training Captains and serving Capts.)

I would NOT recommend OATS for the following:
F) The administration. (This FTO has the worst administration that I have ever come across. However, once you are in training there is no question about the quality of training.)
G) The price. (If you need extra hours on Seneca, you need to budget for £426 an hour! that is OTT.)
About me:
I was Modular student and I did all my training with OATS. I saved around 20k and I am going to be using this 20k to spend on Type rating very soon.

All the best.
M

[garywoodrow]

thanks for the advice, i will give them a call on monday and see if i can arrange a visit. :)

Also, anyone know the details on the loan they help you with from HSBC? They say the 'full' amount of the course but does that include the money you will need for accomadation and such, or just the £61k for the course itself? I would prefer to take £80k on loan :}

[g1344304]

The maximum loan you will get for the Oxford course through their HSBC deal is £50k secured. And yes, you will need approx £80k in total!

So the question is where do you get the other £30k!?!

[garywoodrow]

damn, i really dont have a clue. I dont think i could get that much :bored:. And i have nothing to secure it to :ugh:

*EDIT* i just checked in the brochure and website and i quote "Usable to cover all training related fees, including living expenses".

So does this not mean i would be able to take 80k as is does say 'all'. :\

[GrahamK123]

The hsbc loan is to a maximum of £50000. This is due to being able to afford re-payments by earning a standard first officers wage. If you are on one of the airline schemes they raise this to £60000. Before you say things like 'I would prefer to take the 80k on-loan' think about it for a second- if you took the full ten years to repay the loan you would end up paying hsbc around £40000 in interest.
It may seem easy now when all you can think about is flying a shiny aeroplane but when the novelty wears off, you want to have a family, car, house etc it will hit you in the face that you can't have any of these until you have that huge debt under control.

[garywoodrow]

hmm, so i have to come up with 20k then. :ugh: lol any ideas :bored:. I may have to go modular which i really dont want to do.

If i was to go modular, there is a school near me called ravenair, i was quoted £30-35k for the modular course but i thought its a bit cheap, do you think this will include grounds exams and such?

[g1344304]

FTE has a deal with BBVA bank in london that allows for full course fees (£66k including 3 meals a day, all accomodation and license issue fees) but this too must also be secured on a parents house for example. If you take the full amount you will be having to pay around £1000 a month back when you graduate.

You will also need a bit for living costs (beer, phone calls, travel etc) and I think the bank can cater for this too. I would check em out, very good school.

Another option for you should be CTC. I think they allow the full loan unsecured and you are pretty much gaurenteed a job. However, I think that only around 2% of applicants get accepted.

[akindofmagic]

garywoodrow.

If it has only just now occured to you that you need to find an extra £20-30k on top of the loan to attend Oxford, I would suggest that you haven't done your research thoroughly. Re-read the threads on Oxford, FTE, CTC and the modular schools. Visit as many as you can and ask questions; about the flying, the ground school, the cost.

[Potential]

Has anybody been able to get the OAT website to work today? I was trying to get on the forum, but all I get is the 'page cannot be displayed' page.

[steggers]

Does anybody know where i can find the pass rates for the ATPL theory exams at OAT? I have been told that they are published every year, but i can't seem to find them. Any help would be great.

[sick_bag]

i wouldnt worry about it - the pass rates are very high. i was there until recently and all except the odd person who didnt do sufficient work passed all the exams with high marks (they cant learn it for you at the end of the day!) the instructors are first rate, you shouldnt have any worries.

[potkettleblack]

Unfortunately pass rates don't really give a very good indication of the quality of teaching which I believe is the most relevant part of the training. Any tom dick or harry can do nothing through the ground school and then sign up to the Bristol website and get a 90% plus average by rote learning the answers.

[Vee One...Rotate]

I agree with potkettleblack. It certainly shows up after groundschool when the real flying starts - the dubious statements made by some students show a lack of basic understanding in many subjects.

On the whole, the quality of ground teaching at OAT is good and there are some great characters instructing there :) In general the teaching goes beyond the bare minimum needed to pass the exams and if you pay attention and put in a bit of work yourself you'll gain a good understanding in all subjects.

V1R

[thesheephair]

ok if you where in my situation what would you do? :

money is not an issue so leave it out

gcses: 2A* 5A 2B
alevels: law, buissness studies, graphics, DT

pretty much been into flying ever since i was a little kid, etc etc
been in the raf at skl for 2 years when i was 15 and 16 and did some flying at cranwell for like 2 hours worth.

basically i want to get into the right hand seat of a shiny jet asap.

personally i prefer the integrated enviorment btw, which school would you go to?

[hollingworthp]

Without wishing to be rude - would you really leave it up to anonymous posters on a forum to make such an important decision for you?

We are all different and there is not one FTO that is perfect for everyone.

Take some time out to visit the larger ones and then make an informed decision - surely this makes sense?

[davey147]

If money is not an issue, and you want to get into the jet asap.

Go to a modular school where you can finish faster than integrated, then go an buy a type rating or two, that should get you the job.

[Adios]

Actually, I think integrated is the way to go for you. Simply write a big check and someone else will make all the decisions and manage every step of the training for you, which is not unlike what you are asking others to do for you here concerning when, where and how to do your training. You will have to make many more decisions if you go modular and that seems to be a bit much for you!

Sorry for the sarcasm, but hopefully my response will help you see how your post comes across. Anyone who plans to spend £50K to £75K training for a career should get out from behind the computer screen and visit half a dozen schools. Anyone who would risk so much money without attending to due diligence is not showing the proper attitude towards risk assessment and management that is needful to be an effective airline pilot.

[pre3sg]

hi everyone,
I'm basically wondering how many students pass through Oxford in a typical year? does anyone know this or have a rough idea? I've checked the Oxford website and had a quick search on the forums here but can't seem to find out.
The reason I want to know is to give some scope to Oxfords much promoted employment figures (205 gradutes employed this year! wow!).

Thanks in advance,
S.

[Propellerhead]

Don't get too hung up with the stats. Oxford get u a licence, you get the job. The Oxford ticket carries a lot of weight and gives u the best chance of getting a job but its u that has to have the right qualities to be employed by an airline. If you do well at Oxford and pass most things 1st time, get a good grade average, become a good pilot AND you'll fit into an airline environment then you should get a job.

Think whether u have the qualities, drive, and determination to succeed at a demanding course and in a competitive market.

[Adios]

The numbers you seek are on the OAT forum in the Careers and Employment section. I don't want to post a link to a competing forum since I'm not sure how the moderators here feel about that, but the thread was only started a few days ago, so it should match the date/time stamp of this post within a week or so.

[saintexupery]

I am looking at starting the APPFO integrated next year and I was wondering if anyone who already went through the training could provide thoughts on this. My current employer asked me whether it would be possible for me to keep doing a little bit of work remotely during training.

it would be online, with a flexible commitment of probably one or two hours a week, very flexibly scheduled and with flexible deadlines too. certainly it would help me pay back the loan quicker, but i would not want it to affect my performance during training. I want to give them an answer now to help them plan in advance.

Thanks a lot!

[hollingworthp]

You may struggle during groundschool where you should be aiming for at least 3 hours work a night and at the weekend you will be going back through that weeks work and potentially brushing up on the older stuff. Added to this is the - now compulsory - foundation degree in Air Transport Management which can only add to your workload.

For a more definitive answer you will probably be better off phoning OAT and talking to one of the training advisers.

HTH

Phil.

[rick0]

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone could give me an reasonably non-biased answer..

Where does the extra £30k go to compared to Stapleford etc? I understand that the 40 hour 737 sim stuff would swallow up a bit but where does the rest go to?

And please no "its a waste your money" posts.

Cheers :)

[phantomcruiser07]

it goes to the instructors, facilities, food and accomodation and many other things you have to pay for when you do the integrated program with oxford, OAT is a business so they will find out every single way they can get money off you while you are training, although, you do get what you pay for otherwise they would'nt be in business for very long