Lebanon Operations, Strikes, and Evacuation Discussions (Merged)

[Navaleye]

Condolances to the mssing crew members, but something imporant may have happened here. It may be possible that this vessel was hit by a slow flying primitive UAV. If this is the case then even if the vessel had been Phalanx eqipped (likely), the UAV was travelling below the minimum egagement speed dialed into the Phalanx. Not a pleasant situation for any ops room team. RN take note.

[Tigs2]

Bugger
Have Hez got more sophisticated munitions than were thought?? Heard the damage is not to much, but a fairly succesful trial run.

[SASless]

Latest news report mentioned the Hizboes claim to have 10,000 rockets in the cupboard. Very industrious these home business lads working in the garage hammering out these things.

Say what you want....JDAM's and Laser guided munitions come addressed to a particular address whereas the old Soviet style rockets are sent "To Whom It May Concern".

[7gcbc]

....JDAM's and Laser guided munitions come addressed to a particular address

are you sure about that ?

[SASless]

7g,

Gee lets see here 7G, I take a dumb rocket, put it on some crossed sticks, point it towards oh say....a very small Democratic State in the Middle East....light the fuse and run away quickly to avoid being hit by counter battery artillery. Any chance I have a "particular" address in mind?

It takes a real Hero to do that would you not agree?

[7gcbc]

SAS,

It goes without saying that launching unguided missiles in the "general direction" give or take 5 degrees of arc souhtbound is irresponsible and targets civillians.

But it's not all roses and clinical precision at the other end either, dropping 500kgers into civilian housing and using attack helos to take out one car in the middle of a crowded market is not hero stuff either.

with reference to the accuracy of these smart munitions , if you cast your mind back to the opening "shock" and "awe" Bagdad aerial attack by the coalition, shock seems appropriate, in terms of the shockingly innacurate results achieved.

It is malicious intent on both sides.

[Razor61]

Just so happens that yesterday the Hez told Israel in a radio broadcast that they will 'destroy' the gunboat that is off the coast of Beirut for firing on them and also in revenge for their HQ being destroyed.... looks like they took up their words with actions quite swiftly....
Not sure if it was the same boat, but they had camera crew onboard, i was watching them on the news firing at the shore from onboard....

According to Israel, a civvie ship was hit by rockets aswell.

Now..They are trying to transfer the hostages to Iran.... apparently...will be interesting to see what Israel's response is to that....

[lukeylad]

I heard on ABC last night that it was an iranian supplied UAV.

[Razor61]

They use the Iranian Mirsad-1 UAV. Here (http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2005/04/hezbollah-mirsad1-uav-penetrates-israeli-air-defenses/index.php) is a bit about previous incursions into Israel with the said UAV in 2005...

[7gcbc]

I heard on ABC last night that it was an iranian supplied UAV.

Confirmed apparently by the BBC and forensics from Israeli sources, so the question is, should the Israelis take out the Iranian faclity providing these tools, and likewise, should Hezbollah, take out the US production facility providing the ordenance that the Israelis use ?

We have to be fair, and we have to be seen to be fair.

Perceptions count. :=

[dallas]

We have to be fair, and we have to be seen to be fair.

Absolutely! I doubt the Israeli ship was just on a pleasure cruise, so the Lebanese have the right to self defence irrespective of the reason behind it. The fact that they buy Iranian is irrelevant and far less in need of retaliation than, say, the US directly supplying Stingers to the mujahideen for the only purpose of firing at Russian personnel.

The West are masters of double standards and that's half the reason we're so increasingly despised.

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Did they buy Iranian, or where whey acting on Tehran's behalf? Can't help suspecting this wasn't a business transaction, but something more sinister. If they will supply these things to Hezbollah, you have to worry about western naval forces at the top end of the Persian Gulf....

[dallas]

Did they buy Iranian, or where whey acting on Tehran's behalf?

Pardon the pun but Tehran is unlikley to be calling the shots on this one for two reasons: Firstly Israel came to the Lebanon, so the attack on the ship was hardly pre-meditated in the same fashion as an embassy bombing. This was tactical, not asymmetric. Secondly, I would suggest that Hezbollah probably don't need much encouragement to shoot at anything Israeli.

That's not to say several countries don't want to see the back of Israel and several may very well be providing at least funding. I would suggest Iran is implicated in the same way Tonga is in bombing Iraqi marketplaces in Iraq - by association. Our own club is just branded as the War on Terror.

Oddly enough, organisations like Hezbollah probably won't have as many 'respectable' companies banging on their door to supply arms, so they have to rely on less reputable vendors like Iran over BAe etc. But in the Gulf region I don't think ownership of arms is unreasonable; the visiting Israeli hardware provides an ironic endorsement for buying the stuff in the first place, irrespective of the legitimacy of its reason for popping in.

[SASless]

Buy? Lendlease or outright gifts more like.

Perhaps one should study up on the concept of "state supported terrorism" a bit before holding forth on logistical systems for Terrorists such as the Hizboes and Hamas organizations.

If one recalls, the UN has a Resolution on file that calls for the Hamas to disarm and refrain from terrorism. It also calls for the Lebanese to control the areas adjacent to the border and prevent such acts as these rocket attacks.

[dallas]

SASless

I don't doubt the dealings of many of the states in this region could be regarded as less than legitimate, but the West, as usual, gets to interpret the rule book as it suits. IF Iran is supplying missiles, even for free, to the elected government of another country it's just as bad as countless operations different western countries have directly or indirectly supported in the past when our interests were involved.

I have no sympathy for those currently under attack from Israel, but I think we should be very careful in trying to pin some blame on Iran for providing weapons. Israel and the US both routinely ignore UN directives when they don't suit - such as closing Gitmo - so that argument doesn't hold water either. If anything I would suggest if Iran is as close to nuclear weapons as some would have us believe, they would be more likely to distance themselves from being sucked into a fight for other reasons. Look what happened to Iraq!

We will only resolve this one when both sides acknowledge the need to at least try and look from both sides of the border.

[Reach]

Buy? Lendlease or outright gifts more like

How would you describe US military aid to Israel?

one recalls, the UN has a Resolution on file that calls for the Hamas to disarm and refrain from terrorism. It also calls for the Lebanese to control the areas adjacent to the border and prevent such acts as these rocket attacks.

I salute your new found respect for UN resolutions...a road to Damscus conversion? :E

[dallas]

Watch it Reach - that kind of free speech doesn't go down well, especially with the War on Terror crowd. Before you know it the CIA will be trying to turn your wife and there'll be a LGB through your garage.

Don't forget, you're either with US or against US [sic]

[microlight AV8R]

Latest on Sky news... HMS Illustrious believed to be preparing to sail for Lebanon to evacuate UK citizens. Handy they were there really, goodness what we could do otherwise with existing commitments.

Wouldn't it make sense to pool resources with other EU countries and do a joint evac ? Sure that's been done before.

At least this one isn't hot & high and we have Akrotiri on the doorstep.

Things are really bad when an op of this type makes you wonder whether we have the resources to cope ! :ugh:

Hope it goes well for those deployed. :ok:

Edit: Oops! forgot to say, Illustrious is in Gibralter.

[Spanish Waltzer]

Sky news now also reporting that Illustrious had just embarked loads of family of crew members in Gib to accompany the ship as she returned to the UK. They have now been booted off and arrangements being made to fly them all home again....what a kick in the teeth for the crew having been away for a number of months. Safe sailing guys and girls and hope you get home before too long.

[movadinkampa747]

Things are really bad when an op of this type makes you wonder whether we have the resources to cope ! :ugh:



Cope with what? Where is the problem with using HMS Illustrious to evacuate UK Citizens? They will be able to get alot of people onboard in one go. Good use of resources I say.

[DaveO'Leary]

The US are near to cumming with the chance to drop a few on Iran, has this whole scenario been orchestrated by the US? The BBC have been feeding more news, linking Iran to supplying 'drones' More to this than meets the eye.

Dave

[microlight AV8R]

747

You miss my point, or perhaps I wasn't clear.

Luckily Illustrious was in Gib. Otherwise it would take longer to put the plan in action.

Yes, she is ideal for this op and need only transfer people about 100 - 150 miles across to Cyprus.

If the urgency was geater and Illustrious had not been positioned in such a fortunate location..Then what? Perhaps Chinooks flying out there then
operating from Akrotiri ? Oh dear.. bet that would stretch our SHF assets.

Not arguing here, on the same side and concerned for our people and just how many miracles this stupid government thinks they can pull off at once.

Hope it goes well and the boys & girls are home to Pompey asap for a break with their loved ones.

[The Helpful Stacker]

What has Lusty got 'embarked' (is that the correct fishhead term?) in the way of an air wing at the mo?

Obviously I don't want to know if its not in the public domain.

[SASless]

Hizboes are not the recognized government nor are the Hamas gang as long as they maintain their military wing which is committing terrorist acts. The other group in play are a democratic government threatened with total destruction by several of its neighbors.

Using the logic provided by some here, the US should have stayed out of WWI and WWII I guess. In that view you would be eating kraut and bangers and saluting with outstretched arms would you not?

You cannot have it both ways guys....as much as you would want to. Do you think the fundamentalists will stop with Spain or will they continue west and north until all of Europe faces southeast five times a day?

[eagle21]

With the possibility of an evacuation of foreign national in Lebanon in the next few days, I would like to know which airlines do you think would be involved in a rescue operation ( if any ) . Also wich airports would be more likely to be used and any suggestion that you may have.

[Reach]

Hizboes are not the recognized government nor are the Hamas gang as long as they maintain their military wing which is committing terrorist acts. The other group in play are a democratic government threatened with total destruction by several of its neighbors.

I'm with you there SASless. I assume the democratic govenment you refer to is Lebanon (its new Prime Minister, Siniora, visited the White House in April.)

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/04/20060418-2.html

My 2 cents before this thread gets deleted or moved to JB..

It a war by proxy fought by Syria. They tell their buddies in Hezbollah to provoke Israel. Israel overreacts - as they knew they would - the fledging pro-democracy/anti-Syrian Government in Lebanon falls and is replaced by pro-Syrian militias. France Russia and China get pissed at the US for supporting Israel and so nothing gets done about Iran or North Korea.

And it costs Syria nothing.

[con-pilot]

Back to topic of this thread.

It is not that hard to make a homemade UAV. Just look at the advances that the average RC (Remote control) model builder has available for their hobby. Hell, in point of fact all RC model airplanes are UAVs.

Now just think about it, miniature TV transmitters, small high tech explosives, new more powerful engines and jet propulsion engines on the RC market, light weight remote control systems, etc.

Speed need not to be an issue, in fact one could assume slower the better, as a small (wingspan around 6-9 feet) low flying slow target is very hard to detect.

It is now claimed that in fact it was not a UAV but a modern missile that hit the patrol boat, but one can never know for sure can one.

Okay, you guys go back the conspiracy theories.:rolleyes:




(I agree on the Syria bit Reach and SAS.)

[Sztoggy]

France is sending a ferry boat, and two navy boats carrying cougar helicopters. They will organize daily transfers to Larnaca, from where air france flights and french air forces planes could depart to Paris.
Seems like this is the maximum that the international community is able to do to stop the massacre.

[PompeySailor]

Back to topic of this thread.

It is not that hard to make a homemade UAV. Just look at the advances that the average RC (Remote control) model builder has available for their hobby. Hell, in point of fact all RC model airplanes are UAVs.

Now just think about it, miniature TV transmitters, small high tech explosives, new more powerful engines and jet propulsion engines on the RC market, light weight remote control systems, etc.

Speed need not to be an issue, in fact one could assume slower the better, as a small (wingspan around 6-9 feet) low flying slow target is very hard to detect.

It is now claimed that in fact it was not a UAV but a modern missile that hit the patrol boat, but one can never know for sure can one.

Okay, you guys go back the conspiracy theories.:rolleyes:

Let's hope that the Hezzies ship recognition is up to scratch. Illustrious and Bulwark have been warned off for evac duties. I don't mind them giving the Israelis a few surprises (you can't expect much more if you are going to wander into someone else's littoral zone), but I'd rather they kept missiles away from us, homemade or not.

[Spanish Waltzer]

Probably a couple of worn out Sea King ASac 7s with no DAS and 2 spare seats on each, a bunch of RAF harriers - unless they have already left for the nearest hotel, and an Anti submarine merlin or 2 - have they been grounded since the Canadian cormorant crash? :bored:


Me thinks she might be embarking some SH either from Gib or Akrotiri on the way past.....then again why dont we just ask the Americans to pick up our people while they pick up theirs????:oh:

[con-pilot]

Yes, PS, it may have to be that everyone has to go back to the old 'Mark 1 eyeball' detection system for aerial threats.

[fantaman]

Channel 4 news just had an interview with the top Israeli Army Commander on. He said it wasn't a home made UAV but an Iranian built rocket that hit the ship. I think he said it was an S802 although I may be wrong in the type. Apparently its a copy of a Chinese made missile built by the Iranians and presumably sold/donated to Hezbollah.

[mcidiot]

HMS Illustrious and HMS Bulwark were confirmed as being sent by the MoD tonight.


HMS Illustrious has helicopters and fighter bombers on board, which again could be used to aid any evacuation.

Interesting

So does that mean a naval squadron has been deployed? Or JFH?

[movadinkampa747]

What has Lusty got 'embarked' (is that the correct fishhead term?) in the way of an air wing at the mo?
Obviously I don't want to know if its not in the public domain.


Dont worry helpful I guess they have enough blankets onboard...........:E

[vecvechookattack]

Luckily Illustrious was in Gib...also lucky that Bulwark is in Barcelona....Hmmmm that seems very lucky doesn't it... Do you really think it was luck? Or was it a plan?

[movadinkampa747]

...also lucky that Bulwark is in Barcelona....Hmmmm that seems very lucky doesn't it... Do you really think it was luck? Or was it a plan?

Yes sure they sailed there weeks ago because the Briitsih government knew what was going to happen............:ugh:

[PPRuNe Radar]

Sky news now also reporting that Illustrious had just embarked loads of family of crew members in Gib to accompany the ship as she returned to the UK. They have now been booted off and arrangements being made to fly them all home again....what a kick in the teeth for the crew having been away for a number of months.

Not ideal, but all part of being in the service alas ... or would you have preferred the 'cruise' to have finished first before setting off to help possibly save lives ??

[Smoketoomuch]

C802 I think he said. Seems a bit more plausible than the 'home made UAV' theory.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/c-801.htm

[MReyn24050]

Cyprus is going to be busy. Extracts from various news agencie.
"France, which has historic ties to Lebanon and 17,000 citizens residing there, announced plans Saturday to ferry French nationals to Cyprus where Air France flights would be waiting to bring them to Paris.
A convoy of 410 Italians and others, mainly from the EU, packed up and fled on Saturday, travelling by land to Latakia, Syria. They were boarding military flights to Rome, some going first to Cyprus, the head of the Italian Foreign Ministry's crisis unit, Elisabetta Belloni, said.
Pentagon and U.S. State Department officials are working on contingency plans to get about 25,000 people out of Lebanon to escape Israel's military campaign, launched after two Israeli soldiers were kidnapped by Hezbollah guerrillas. An "air bridge" is the term for planes that would move in swiftly and ferry people out in quick succession. Planners are focusing on flying people from the Lebanese capital of Beirut to the island of Cyprus, officials said."

[PompeySailor]

"There are several thousand Britons in Beirut. One who has got out of the city is student Angela Quatermaine, from Oxford. She told the BBC: "The Lebanese have been so kind and friendly... they have been wonderful getting us out of Beirut."
Referring to the news that the two Royal Navy vessels were on standby, she said: "I don't know how they are going to get here as the port has been bombed... we'll believe it when we see it."


One that we should be leaving behind then - she will be too stupid to ever earn enough to pay back her student loan anyway. Should we be sending her a cruise itinerary so that she packs the right clothes before joining the grey funnel line at a port of her choice? Will she be shocked when she is airtaxed to a floating airfield?!

[Jimlad1]

As usual we send a carrier because its the best unit for the job, despite there being an RAF base only a few hundred miles away. Yet more evidence as to why carriers are essential in the modern world.

Ain't it great- we can sit offshore and support, while the RAF is unable to land at the airport with its much vaunted 24/7 capability due to it being bombed. Red faces in Strike perchance?

[Climebear]

As usual we send a carrier because its the best unit for the job, despite there being an RAF base only a few hundred miles away. Yet more evidence as to why carriers are essential in the modern world.

Ain't it great- we can sit offshore and support, while the RAF is unable to land at the airport with its much vaunted 24/7 capability due to it being bombed. Red faces in Strike perchance?


What is this as usual. I am trying to think about the last time we used a carrier for a NEO (not in the last 20 years anyway). Last one was Ivory Coast (no carrier), Sierra Leone (no carrier for the NEO - albeit one turned up later), Eritrea (no carrier), Democratic Republic of Congo (3 deployents, no actual evacuation - no carrier (albeit that Kinshasa is c400km from the sea).

[lukeylad]

I think i read on here that 3 RAF Chinooks were seen at nice airport refueling maybe there heading out to cyprus or meeting the Bulwark on the way.

Bulwarks got 500 marines embarked at the moment.

[movadinkampa747]

Ain't it great- we can sit offshore and support, while the RAF is unable to land at the airport with its much vaunted 24/7 capability due to it being bombed. Red faces in Strike perchance?

Maybe the holes in the runway might have something to do with it and the fact that the aircraft are busy elsewhere...................

[Navaleye]

Here (http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13532984,00.html)

Hopefully it won't be needed.

[A2QFI]

In terms what we have serviceable and available to send , have we sent A carrier or THE carrier?

[microlight AV8R]

Illustriuos & Albion = 1.5 carriers :E

Or did I mean Illustrious & Bulwark:O

Giving my age away now, lets think about what we once had...

Ark Royal Eagle Hermes Albion Bulwark Fearless Intrepid

Phantom Buccaneer Gannet Wessex

SLR (proper rifle)

Ok, Ok, I will stop there as I'm probably making some of you feel even older :p

[Jimlad1]

"Maybe the holes in the runway might have something to do with it and the fact that the aircraft are busy elsewhere..................."

Exactly my point, we keep hearing on this board about how vulnerable CVF is and why its a waste of time. We never hear any mention of just how vulnerable fixed land airbases are, and as seen here, if we didnt have a carrier right now we'd be struggling to do anything. Once more the case for CVF is strengthened.

[Daysleeper]

What no one mentions is that it will be almost a week before the ships could get there..... slllooooowww these boats.

Saw some bird on news 24 saying - hopefully the navy will evacuate us in a couple of days I'm sure they are just waiting for clearance.... and perhaps a set of hydrofoils - carrier size.

Illustrious is in Gib, Bulwark in Barcelona thats about 1800 miles sailing?

[ORAC]

The CVF is flag waving. If we wanted AD or CAS a far far better job could be done from Akrotiri, along with E3D, AAR and all other required support. The CVF is not needed against the Lebanese/Hizbollah and would have no chance against the Israelis.

HMS Bulwark provides the required amphibious landing capability and C2, the Chinooks providing the needed helo lift, the evacuees can then be ferried to Akrotiri. All the CVF will provide is extra deck space for more helos.

Pragmatically, I'd fly off the fixed wing assets to Akro and offer the deck space to the French, Italian or any other nation who need somewhere to stage their helos through. It would free up more space on board and they can operate from a proper airfield.... :E

[airborne_artist]

Illustrious is in Gib, Bulwark in Barcelona thats about 1800 miles sailing?

1800nm at 25 kts is 72 hours, or they could do it at 12.5 kts and take six days...I guess that they have some RFA support with them?

[lukeylad]

1800nm at 25 kts is 72 hours, or they could do it at 12.5 kts and take six days...I guess that they have some RFA support with them?

I think theres a tanker in the med already with NATO.

[Guernsey Girl II]

Ah RFAs.. Just because the CVS can do 25 Kts can the RFA? To that point can Bulwark do anywhere near that speed in the Med in mid summer too?:rolleyes:

As for the no host nation support required line... Where is the RFA going to find all the Avter and Diesel (for Bulwark) Not the WSBA by any chance?;)

[engineer(retard)]

I seem to remember that in 83 the Chinooks could reach Beirut from Akrotiri without too much trouble.

[microlight AV8R]

Yes the Chinooks did the supply run from Akrotiri and also cas-evac I believe when we did the peacekeeping stuff out there.

The likely scenario is probably to use Chinooks and other choppers to shuttle people to a nice big deck sitting off shore at a safe distance.

The whole operation would take a lot longer if each flight had to go all the way to Akrotiri.

Shame we haven't got a few Buccs on QRA at Akrotiri for top cover this time. Harriers likely, but not quite the same :cool:

[lukeylad]

Shame theres no buccs to show the flag like in 83. Rumour has it the buccs departed between the bulidings.

[AllTrimDoubt]

Lepus flares, anyone?

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Left Koinelli on friday and there were at least two types of pointy wooshy fast things there on excercise so there's your top cover:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[vecvechookattack]

Yes sure they sailed there weeks ago because the Briitsih government knew what was going to happen............:ugh:Exactly.... I think that the spooks at the FCO have done a good job on this occasion...Well done you lot.

[maxy101]

Makes you wonder what all these UK citizens were doing out in the Lebanon...they can't all be on holiday can they?

[artyhug]

And why not, it's a great place.

Fantastic food, cheap hotels, great weather and friendly people. Plus it's a short ferry ride from Akki when APC is getting too much!

But then I suppose they must all be terrorists huh?

Bigot.

[John Blakeley]

An Israeli friend in the Naval Reserve has told me that it was a Silkworm - possibly supplied by Iran? The excellent Wikipedia encyclopedia has already written the attack up on its site - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silkworm_missile

JB

[maxy101]

How is asking if all these citizens are on holiday in Lebanon being bigoted?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigoted

[microlight AV8R]

Why UK citizens in Lebanon ? Easy: It is a major trading crossroads in the middle east. Was referred to as being the Switzerland of that part of the world before the previous war which laid waste to a once prosperous country.

Unfortunately the actions of a relatively small group of people once again threaten to drag this country into the abyss.

[PompeySailor]

Ah RFAs.. Just because the CVS can do 25 Kts can the RFA? To that point can Bulwark do anywhere near that speed in the Med in mid summer too?:rolleyes:

As for the no host nation support required line... Where is the RFA going to find all the Avter and Diesel (for Bulwark) Not the WSBA by any chance?;)

No need. The CVS will fuel-hop (we have reciprocal fuel agreement with many other countries, we have plenty of options.)

They can be there in 72 hours, give or take a few (you need to RAS (Replenishment At Sea) at a slower speed. Within range, air cover will go up and can start the ferrying process at the ship closes final destination. Maintaining top speed is not a problem, just requires enhanced watchkeeping, but the guys are no strangers to being tired - and there are no maximum hours working directives for them either!

It's going to be a multi-service op, so I don't know why some of the more blinkered on here persist in pretending that it's RN only, or that it proves that we don't need the RAF!

[PompeySailor]

Makes you wonder what all these UK citizens were doing out in the Lebanon...they can't all be on holiday can they?

Teachers, engineers, adminstrators, etc, etc, etc. Look through any trade-specific paper and you will see jobs on offer in all of the mid-East countries. Good wages, good perks, a few restrictions but overall a small price to pay for the compensation available.

Then again, it goes pear shaped sometimes, as it has now.

[SASless]

I would put my money on there being a small US Navy/Marine presence there that might assist the Royal Navy/Marine units.

Perhaps we could road march the 3rd ID and 4th ID up from Iraq and provide some serious boots on the ground. That was something I proposed a couple of years ago...what with it being much shorter a sea voyage to the USA if one starts at Beirut rather than Kuwait.

[Guernsey Girl II]

Pompey Sailor shipmate,
I'm as 'joint' as the next man and to be honest more than most on this site.

However, my points re RFAs, fuel, ETA and host nation support were more aimed at the more rabid "Don’t Panic The Navy is Here!" comments from jimlad1
As usual we send a carrier because its the best unit for the job, despite there being an RAF base only a few hundred miles away. Yet more evidence as to why carriers are essential in the modern world.

Ain't it great- we can sit offshore and support, while the RAF is unable to land at the airport with its much vaunted 24/7 capability due to it being bombed. Red faces in Strike perchance?

P.S. How will the CVS fuel hop on station? It's a long way to Souda Bay;)

[Jimlad1]

Fuel hopping isn't an issue - thats what we have tankers for, and Souda Bay isnt that far away to go and top up the tanker. We can also use other NATO assets to refuel.

Furthermore, while I have no doubt that we could get a couple of Helos in to Beirut quickly, it will almost certainly take more than 3 days to get the spares, kit, personnel and everything else needed to support them into place - unless of course Akrotiri is kitted out to support a large SHF op at no notice? The CVS will turn up with all its kit ready to go on the spot, so we have the choice between essentially an almost immediate show of force, backed up by a long wait to get all the kit in place, or 72hrs delay but with everything you want, and unconstrained by being based on land in a warzone.

[airborne_artist]

It's about now that the overstretch, particularly of RW assets, will start to show.

Article in the Telegraph today saying the the PoW had asked DefSec 6 months ago about the lack of air support in Afgahnistan.

War on two fronts plus a no-notice civilian evacuation = :ugh:

[PompeySailor]

Pompey Sailor shipmate,
I'm as 'joint' as the next man and to be honest more than most on this site.

However, my points re RFAs, fuel, ETA and host nation support were more aimed at the more rabid "Don’t Panic The Navy is Here!" comments from jimlad1 P.S. How will the CVS fuel hop on station? It's a long way to Souda Bay;)

Tankers, RAS (don't forget that the CVS has the ability to re-designate some of it's tanks in emergency to take on additional fuel as well). It's not really a problem and it's been done before, the SOA is modified so that the CVS RVs with tankers (US/UK/etc) and fuels on the move - and there are always plenty of multinational forces hanging around the Med! There is no need to go alongside to fuel. The tankers carry more than enough to support this kind of op.

The CVS' have the ability to set up for this on the move, the stores required for an evac are not massive - the evacuees will not expect, or get, hotel standard services. Failing that, the CVS has the ability to act as a mobile "hop-off" point for the RAF to land on, fuel, and keep taxiing these people to the nearest safe land (Cyprus, Turkey, Egypt) for onmove. The op won't be purely military, HMG will be co-opting civilian transport as well to get people back to the UK. Best will in the world, a CVS won't take 10,000 people!

[Shackman]

Re the "I'm quicker than you are", or "don't worry the Navy's here" argument from jimlad etc.

At about 1800 on 6 Sep 83 7 Sqn was tasked to deploy to Beirut (at the start of the last bit of unpleasantness). I lifted from Odiham approx 0530 the following morning with one or two (I can't remember now) other Chinooks together with all our groundcrew and basic spares package and we were ready to go into Beirut on the morning of the 9th! (And yes a C-130 did follow with additional crews and bits and pieces that were not immediately available to go when we did).

However, the nature of the task now is quite different. Even tho' the round trip (Akrotiri-Beirut and return) is just over 2 hours with no refuel required, the navy IS required as a full member of the jointery that is our remit these days. It is much easier to run a shuttle to and from a flat top (which also makes a good pax carrier), and then worry about ferrying the multitude back to Akrotiri or Larnaca. In fact just as the navy did with the old Bulwark off Kyrenia during the Cyprus troubles in 74.

The only trouble is of course the rotary assets to do the job. Have we got any Chinooks/Merlins/jungly Sea Kings left untasked/committed to do the job, or do Pumas (despite their poor deck capabilities), ASW and AEW Sea Kings and Merlins (with their reduced pax carrying abilities) get called in?

As a-a says: now that the overstretch, particularly of RW assets, will start to show.

And what next - more assets required in FI?

[mcidiot]

Couldn't the Griffons in Akrotiri begin to bring some people back?

and the Seakings on Illustrious could easily reach Akrotiri, couldn't they?

[force_ale]

If we had a proper military rotary squadron at Aki equipt with the Merlins that 84 were originally going to have, the evacuation could have started days ago.:ugh:

[The Gorilla]

Pompey wrote
HMG will be co-opting civilian transport as well to get people back to the UK. Best will in the world, a CVS won't take 10,000 people!

Oh yeah and where will the civilian transport come from, at the busiest period in the summer? Oh for the days when we had 60+ Hercs eh?

I can hear the elastic band snapping from here!!

:ugh:

[lukeylad]

Civvy transport: One question how they gonna get it in??

the airports out of action they aint gonna charter a channel ferry and just sail it on down.

[microlight AV8R]

Civvy transport: One question how they gonna get it in??

the airports out of action they aint gonna charter a channel ferry and just sail it on down.

Larnaca/Akrotiri after evacuees shuttled across by helicopters via our carriers :ugh:

[Myra Leese]

[U]Force Ale

Your comment is as insulting as it is uninformed. Don't know who you have been talking to but 84 Sqn were never destined to be a Merlin Sqn; they are one of the few if not only truely multi-role rotary Sqn in the RAF.
You can bet they already have a plan waiting to roll if an evacuation is called for, either embarked or self supporting from the Eastern side of the island. If only the bean counters had not insisted on removing the pipework for the overload tanks their endurance would have been even better. Not everyone is on holiday at Akrotiri!!

Rant over, back to reasoned discussion

[Lookin 4 a Loggin]

...also lucky that Bulwark is in Barcelona....Hmmmm that seems very lucky doesn't it... Do you really think it was luck? Or was it a plan?

I'd just like to clear that up having just disembarked from Bulwark.

Bulwark sailed for OIF and Calash in Jan of this year! She was on the way home with a very tired ships company. Bulwark recently lost its "air det" of 2 Lynx but serves as a very capable floating airfield apart from the Chacons on the side.

Also she will make at least 12 kts in that temp if everything remains servicable.

I feel immensly sorry for all the ships company and some of the Wardroom that will remain away.... bit of luck I got off in time!

[Pontious]

Whilst routing up from Sharm el Sheik to El Arish in Egypt last thursday at FL330 I noticed a ship in the Red Sea. It was heading north, small aircraft carrier or helicopter carrier size. Didn't have much of a wake behind it or smoke stack and it didn't seem to be in much of a hurry. Anybody know if the French or Americans have anything in the area. It didn't seem to have an escort but was definately large, grey, flat decked with markings visible through bino's from 5.5 miles up.

[Tigs2]

But
Did you know in 1967
The UN passed a resolution number 242 that Israel MUST withdraw from the occupied territories. To this date they have never done so, yet they expect the Lebenon to comply with their UN resolutions.
I expect this thread to last for 12 hours max. UN 242 still remains in uncompliance. WHY! WHY!
Tigs

[Always a Sapper]

It would be start towards peace if a certain beligerant country actually complied with UN resolutions for a change...

What about their terror acts on the brits? St Davids Hotel for starters? plus others... all convenietly forgotten about...

And dont mention nukes either...

[BigBusDriver]

Sorry if this is off-topic, but whatever happened to THEL? Last I heard it was doing a pretty good job of dealing with Katyusha-type rockets back around 2001. Seems like a handy bit of kit for Israel to have these days.

[Blacksheep]

...yet they expect the..Nobody, least of all any UN delegates, expects anyone to comply with a UN resolution. UN resolutions are no more than feel-good expressions of indignation.

Would Britain leave the Falklands (aka Los Malvinas) if there was a UN resolution? Of course not. If sovereignty over the islands was in question previously, that's no longer the case.

Did the USA - or more correctly "The Coalition" - take any notice of the UN over Iraq? Of course not. "Might is Right" and one would expect military aircrew to be only too well aware of that, for power projection is what they're all about. Its the way the world works; it always was so and it always will be.

Its long past the time for the Palestinians to recognize the reality on the ground. Israel exists. Every time there's a war, the Palestinians take a beating and Israel gets a bit more land.

While I sympathise with the plight of the Palestinians, their own leadership has dragged them into this mire. Since the 1920s Palestinian leaders have sold their people down the river for their own personal profit. Indeed, without their collaboration the State of Israel could never have come to pass.

Time to stop all the stupid pinpricks of home made rockets and suicide bombs, face the reality and talk. Properly. Self flagellation loses its impact after forty years.

[eagle 86]

I say again - the UN is a travelling cocktail party - a sinkhole for huge amounts of money - no real power - no real capability - and never will have. Purely designed to give certain people a warm, touchy/feely sense that they have some say in world affairs.
Israel exists and will continue to exist - the Arabs better get used to this.
GAGS
E86

[West Coast]

"Self flagellation loses its impact after forty years"

I like that. Aptly explains a lot in a little.

"Israel exists and will continue to exist - the Arabs better get used to this"

I like this as well.

[CSilvera]

It would be start towards peace if a certain beligerant country actually complied with UN resolutions for a change...
What about their terror acts on the brits? St Davids Hotel for starters? plus others... all convenietly forgotten about...
And dont mention nukes either...
It was the King David hotel, which was the British military HQ. The British were warned it would be bombed, but most of the British choose to ignore the warning. In any case that happened before the country of Israel was established. The hotel still stands, btw. I suppose when the UNIFIL (the UN forces stationed on the Israeli-Lebanon border) start doing their job. . nah last I checked, they were responsible for assisting in the kidnapping of an Israeli officer a few years ago. Also, with which UN resolution has Israel not complied?

[Maple 01]

Tigs either doesn’t know, or chooses not to mention that there are two kinds of UNSCR resolutions, those that are mandatory (such as UNSCR 687 - the disarming of Iraq) and have powers of enforcement, and those where the UN passes censure and says how they (UN) expect countries to behave, they are not binding and all of the UNSCRs against Israel are this type.

You can’t drive Israel into the sea – and they don’t take crap from anyone – long may it remain so

[The Helpful Stacker]

Bottom line on why Israel doesn't comply with UN resolution 242; The US is the biggest player at the UN, the US is run by rich, powerful Jewish people, rich and powerful Jewish people don't want Israel to 'concede' occupied lands.

Of course no doubt my comments will be seen as anti-semitic, the easiest stone to throw when talking about Israel and its US funded state-sponsored terrorism. Of course the US wouldn't understand that though as terrorism only happens when a plane flies into one of their buildings.

Good to see Israel using a like for like method of retailation. I'm not sure if using an Apache to stop a vehicle in a crowded marketplace is covered by our ROE's though.

[eagle 86]

I actually thought that, in recent times, Israel had given back some occupied land. I'm afraid that I do not see that Israel is at fault in the present conflict.
GAGS
E86

[FormerFlake]

Harks back to the British 'Gun Boat' diplomacy of the 1800s. It used to work back then to. If we had not stopped doing it we may never have had WW2.:sad:

[microlight AV8R]

Agree with Tigs, Israel has no choice. The Arabs hate Israel and will only be satisfied with the total destruction of Israel. You can't negotiate with people who have such clear intent, they are indoctrinated from birth.

Hizbollah are manipulated by Iran, a country with nuclear ambitions and a president who says Israel should be wiped off the map :eek:

It's terrible to see Lebanon in such a mess again, but they have allowed attacks on Israel to be undertaken from their territory. UN is the usual toothless tiger.

I expect the arab nations may hit back at the west with oil prices/supplies as they have done since the 1973 war.

There will be no end to this, just the occasional pause.

[vecvechookattack]

News from the BBC


UN calls for Lebanon peace force

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40967000/jpg/_40967138_breaking_news_203.jpg
UN Secretary General Kofi Annan and UK Prime Minister Tony Blair have called for an international force to be sent to Lebanon to stop attacks on Israel.
Mr Blair said the force could "stop the bombardment coming over into Israel and therefore gives Israel a reason to stop its attacks on Hezbollah". Israel launched its offensive last week following the capture of two of its soldiers by Lebanese guerrillas. Hezbollah has been firing hundreds of missiles into northern Israel.

[Maple 01]

Israel launched its offensive last week following the capture of two of its soldiers by Lebanese guerrillas.

I see the BBC is still having a problem with the 'T' word, for the benefit of the BBC I will translate,

'Israel launched its offensive last week following kidnap of two of its soldiers by Hezbollah terrorists and numerous cross border attacks from Lebanon- Israel has invoked the legitimate right of self defence under Art. 51 of the UN Charter'

[PompeySailor]

News from the BBC

What do you think that the prat Tony Blair has in mind? A huge tennis racket or a big net to catch the missiles? What makes them think that a toothless UN, constrained by ROE and watched by Human Rights sharks will be able to prevent this going on? The Arabs want the Jews removed from the face of the map, the Jews will defend their territory and people, and all we can honestly do is let them get on with it. Why should we side with the Israelis, who have no concept of proportionate response, or with the Arabs who started this problem (this time) with their cross-border snatch squad?

Not happy with the way the BBC continues with their pro-Israeli slant - they seem to miss the "hundreds of missiles" the Israelis have been lobbing back into Lebanon!

[Moe Syzlak]

I suppose if you steal a country you should expect to take a few hits. As for the "unacceptable" kidnapping of soldiers- the Hagena took 2 brits in '48, tortured them, murdered them, boobytrapped their bodies and left them festering in the sun tied to trees. I'm glad I don't live there.

[lukeylad]

Whilst routing up from Sharm el Sheik to El Arish in Egypt last thursday at FL330 I noticed a ship in the Red Sea. It was heading north, small aircraft carrier or helicopter carrier size. Didn't have much of a wake behind it or smoke stack and it didn't seem to be in much of a hurry. Anybody know if the French or Americans have anything in the area. It didn't seem to have an escort but was definately large, grey, flat decked with markings visible through bino's from 5.5 miles up.

Could be the IWO Jima american assult carrier shes heading for the area. Or maybe that French helicopter carrier jean de arc i think.

[7gcbc]

Tonys' Brief needs to take a long holiday, the UN already has a peacekeeping operation in that zone under the UNIFIL mandate.

from the Unifil website:

Strength (30 April 2006)
1,991 troops, assisted by some 50 military observers of UNTSO; and supported by 95 international civilian personnel and 295 local civilian staff

Contributors of Military Personnel China, France, Ghana, India, Ireland, Italy and Poland.

[PompeySailor]

Tonys' Brief needs to take a long holiday, the UN already has a peacekeeping operation in that zone under the UNIFIL mandate.

from the Unifil website:

Strength (30 April 2006)
1,991 troops, assisted by some 50 military observers of UNTSO; and supported by 95 international civilian personnel and 295 local civilian staff

Contributors of Military Personnel China, France, Ghana, India, Ireland, Italy and Poland.

Their official mandate is:


According to Security Council resolutions 425 (1978) and 426 (1978) of 19 March 1978, UNIFIL was established to:
Confirm the withdrawal of Israeli forces from southern Lebanon;
Restore international peace and security;
Assist the Government of Lebanon in ensuring the return of its effective authority in the area. Most recently the mandate of UNIFIL was extended until 31 July 2006 by Security Council resolution 1655 (2006) of 31 January 2006.

Mission assessed as incomplete then?

[7gcbc]

either way tony's brief missed it, bet there's a job going at #1 Whitehall by tomorrow ?

[Vatican69]

What I don't understand, is why Israel feels the need to strike back on such a massive scale against an enemy that cannot in any way compete with it in the military might stakes.

I think they are entitled to defend themselves if they are attacked and it's admirable that they would take the kidnapping of their soldiers and murder of their civillians so seriously (we should all wish for that level of commitment from our government).

The real problem is the arabs are protrayed as living in poverty and squalor, as a third world nation and then you have Israel pounding seven shades out of them with tanks and F-16's.

The thing is Israel strikes back against civillian targets, maybe because it's the civillian population that makes up the largest part of the enemy forces, but when you look at the situation from the outside I reckon it's easy to see a well armed and funded country, pounding the civillian population of a third world country because of the actions of a few extremists.

I don't think the majority of the public (me included I guess) understand in any great ammount of detail the history of the Israeli/Arab conflict. I can see Israel digging a big hole with regard to peoples opinion of them as a nation. i don't really have an answer because I don't know enough about the situation, if it were up to me I'd just make them share all the land equally and have a nice tea party and all be bestest friends!!

But surely as a powerful nation it is encumbant upon them to make sure any action they take is in proportion...a few other big nations could learn that too.

I stand ready to be corrected by wiser men than me.

[ORAC]

Ahh yes. The Impartial UNIFIL (http://judaism.about.com/library/1_terrorism/bl_hardov_un.htm). They don´t exactly have a good track record concerning the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers by Hizbollah....... :hmm:

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

But
Did you know in 1967
The UN passed a resolution number 242 that Israel MUST withdraw from the occupied territories.

Actually, 242 was worded deliberately vaguely. It said Israel must "withdraw from territories occupied" in the 1967 war, not all territories. In a way, Israel has complied, eg. by withdrawing from Sinai. This wording was a diplomatic tour de force because, at the time, it satisfied everyone.

[movadinkampa747]

Oh good another lebanon thread...........................

[Maple 01]

What I don't understand, is why Israel feels the need to strike back on such a massive scale against an enemy that cannot in any way compete with it in the military might stakes.

The same reason we didn't give the Serbs a 'fighting chance' over Kosovo, war is about winning, not fighting on an even playing field - 'ohhh, it's sooo unfair -they've got all the best kit', unlucky – don’t kick at a wasp’s nest if you don’t want to be stung.

I suppose if you steal a country

Steal? Remind me who lived in Judea - er……..

So, if you claim the Jews have no right to their own state on land that was historically theirs then you must accept that Palestinians also lose historical rights to land……unless it’s different for them?

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

As I see it; bad people are doing bad things to Israel. The said bad people are operating inside the Lebanon. The bad people are bigger and badder than the Lebanese Government and its armed forces. The bad people have representatives in the Lebanese Parliament but not in the Government. The Bad people in the Parliament aren’t as clever as the Irish and didn’t give their political wing a separate identity.

Leaving aside the matter of responsibility or commitment to prevent hostile, illegal acts within their borders, what are the Lebanese supposed to do? Commit suicide?

The analogue has been used elsewhere but still holds good; when the PIRA used to hit us from across the Border, did we set the RAF on the Republic of Ireland’s assets and infrastructure? Even though, at the time, the Irish constitution was committed to a unified Ireland; of course we didn’t. We’d learned several decades earlier that it wasn’t the way to counter the threat. The Israeli cause would be better served by inserting (illegally) men with boots and rifles and engaging the terrs head on. The Israeli losses would be significant but at least it would possess some morality. As for the complete disregard for the safety of Foreign Nationals; well, that’s a whole new conversation.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Steal? Remind me who lived in Judea - er……..

So, if you claim the Jews have no right to their own state on land that was historically theirs then you must accept that Palestinians also lose historical rights to land……unless it’s different for them?

With apologies to those with no insight to British history; I’m not giving my land back to the Welsh!

[Vatican69]

Maple,

Taken in the wrong context me thinks, I wasn't implying Israel should give anyone a fighting chance. the point I was leading to was about public perception of their actions and how that might harm their longer term goals.

I'm not taking sides I think they are all a bunch of nutters

[Pureteenlard]

Of course it would be easier on everyone, Israelis and Lebanese included, if Hizbollah would stop hiding their people under runways, bridges, quays etc . . .

[CSilvera]

Bottom line on why Israel doesn't comply with UN resolution 242; The US is the biggest player at the UN, the US is run by rich, powerful Jewish people, rich and powerful Jewish people don't want Israel to 'concede' occupied lands.
Of course no doubt my comments will be seen as anti-semitic, the easiest stone to throw when talking about Israel and its US funded state-sponsored terrorism. Of course the US wouldn't understand that though as terrorism only happens when a plane flies into one of their buildings.
Good to see Israel using a like for like method of retailation. I'm not sure if using an Apache to stop a vehicle in a crowded marketplace is covered by our ROE's though.
What part of 242 haven't they complied with? They withdrew from Sinai and from Gaza?
Lyndon, Lyndon LaRouche, is that you?

[CSilvera]

I suppose if you steal a country you should expect to take a few hits. As for the "unacceptable" kidnapping of soldiers- the Hagena took 2 brits in '48, tortured them, murdered them, boobytrapped their bodies and left them festering in the sun tied to trees. I'm glad I don't live there.
What is the "Hagena?" Do you have a cite for the incident to which you refer (Not that this has anything to do with the UN/Israel)?

[microlight AV8R]

What is the "Hagena?" Do you have a cite for the incident to which you refer (Not that this has anything to do with the UN/Israel)?

I suggest you do some searches ; Hagannah / Stern Group activities during the British Palestinian Mandate 1945-47.

Then you might understand.

[The Helpful Stacker]

I suggest you do some searches ; Hagannah / Stern Group activities during the British Palestinian Mandate 1945-47.

Then you might understand.

http://www.britains-smallwars.com/Palestine/kidnap.htm

[CSilvera]

I suggest you do some searches ; Hagannah / Stern Group activities during the British Palestinian Mandate 1945-47.

Then you might understand.
Thank you for the link.
I am fully aware of the history, and my comments still stand; not really sure why an isolated incident 60 years ago is relevant to destroying Hezbollah terrorists.

You seem to be confusing Jewish liberation fighters with Iran funded terrorists intents on destroying a sovereign state through the most barbaric means. It's pretty clear to me.

[mcidiot]

The BBC reports the
most vulnerable being flown by helicopter from north of Beirut to Cyprus.
Does this mean the elderly or ill; or vulnerable being the embassy?
SOURCE (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5186076.stm)

[The Helpful Stacker]

It confirmed that a "fleet" of Chinook helicopters had been deployed from RAF Odiham in Hampshire...

If by 'fleet' they mean 'the few Chinooks we have left at Odiham' that'd be surprisingly accurate for the BBC.

[airborne_artist]

Playing the Devil's Advicate here -

Presumeably all UK nationals in Lebanon, bar those in the FO, are there by choice (and who'd take a holiday there?) as ex-pats. They took a decision to go to a place with a very rocky past, and potentially a rocky future. They probably are not, for the present, paying Gordon.

Why then should our Service-people risk their own lives to go and bail them out of the sh!t? The RAC don't come and rescue my car just because I was a member for 20 years, but stopped paying the membership.

Companies such as Control Risks will provide such a service, at a cost. Does HMG recover costs from the evacuees?

[PompeySailor]

Playing the Devil's Advicate here -

Presumeably all UK nationals in Lebanon, bar those in the FO, are there by choice (and who'd take a holiday there?) as ex-pats. They took a decision to go to a place with a very rocky past, and potentially a rocky future. They probably are not, for the present, paying Gordon.

Why then should our Service-people risk their own lives to go and bail them out of the sh!t? The RAC don't come and rescue my car just because I was a member for 20 years, but stopped paying the membership.

Companies such as Control Risks will provide such a service, at a cost. Does HMG recover costs from the evacuees?

Because they hold a very important document which offers them protection no matter where they are. Yes, HMG have been known to recover some elements of cost (we used to carry documents on ships which evacuees were supposed to sign before being embarked!).

[The Helpful Stacker]

Errr, I'll try again.

[movadinkampa747]

CPS - "Why did you fire 7 rounds into the suspect?"
Copper - "Because my pistol jammed".
:}
It does seem strange when troops who served in Iraq have their identities splashed across the press and are hounded by the CPS over an alleged murder that had no body, no witnesses and no motive whereas a few coppers who definately need to read up the white card ROE's 'get away' with the cold-blooded murder of an innocent by-stander in a London tube station.
No I wasn't there at the tube station but I've been on top cover in Iraq a in a couple of hairy situations where the first concern that popped into my head was "will I be dragged over the coals if I have to use my weapon here?"

So do you really think the Lebanese people are really concerned witht the CPS?

[The Helpful Stacker]

So do you really think the Lebanese people are really concerned witht the CPS?

Eeek, wrong thread.

[PompeySailor]

The transcript when the mic was left on.....if you weren't worried before, you should be now.

Marvel at Bush's lapdog as he does somersaults to keep his master happy.
Be astounded at the "hip" language they use.
Be horrified at the simplified view that they have of problems.
Be stunned as you realise that these people have the ability to control your destiny.

Honey?


Blair/Bush exchange: transcript
Bush: Yo, Blair. How are you doing?
Blair: I’m just...
Bush: You’re leaving?
Blair: No, no, no not yet. On this trade thingy...[INAUDIBLE]
Bush: Yeah, I told that to the man.
Blair: Are you planning to say that here or not?
Bush: If you want me to.
Blair: Well, it’s just that if the discussion arises...
Bush: I just want some movement.
Blair: Yeah.
Bush: Yesterday we didn’t see much movement.
Blair: No, no, it may be that it’s not, it may be that it’s impossible.
Bush: I am prepared to say it.
Blair: But it’s just I think what we need to be an opposition...
Bush: Who is introducing the trade?
Blair: Angela [Merkel, the German Chancellor].
Bush: Tell her to call ’em.
Blair: Yes.
Bush: Tell her to put him on, them on the spot. Thanks for [INAUDIBLE] it’s awfully thoughtful of you.
Blair: It’s a pleasure.
Bush: I know you picked it out yourself.
Blair: Oh, absolutely, in fact [INAUDIBLE].
Bush: What about Kofi? [INAUDIBLE] His attitude to ceasefire and everything else ... happens.
Blair: Yeah, no I think the [INAUDIBLE] is really difficult. We can’t stop this unless you get this international business agreed.
Bush: Yeah.
Blair: I don’t know what you guys have talked about, but as I say I am perfectly happy to try and see what the lie of the land is, but you need that done quickly because otherwise it will spiral.
Bush: I think Condi is going to go pretty soon.
Blair: But that’s, that’s, that’s all that matters. But if you... you see it will take some time to get that together.
Bush: Yeah, yeah.
Blair: But at least it gives people...
Bush: It’s a process, I agree. I told her your offer to...
Blair: Well...it’s only if I mean... you know. If she’s got a..., or if she needs the ground prepared as it were... Because obviously if she goes out, she’s got to succeed, if it were, whereas I can go out and just talk.
Bush: You see, the ... thing is what they need to do is to get Syria, to get Hezbollah to stop doing this **** and it’s over.
Blair: [INAUDIBLE]
Bush: [INADUBILE]
Blair: Syria.
Bush: Why?
Blair: Because I think this is all part of the same thing.
Bush: Yeah.
Blair: What does he think? He thinks if Lebanon turns out fine, if we get a solution in Israel and Palestine, Iraq goes in the right way...
Bush: Yeah, yeah, he is sweet.
Blair: He is honey. And that’s what the whole thing is about. It’s the same with Iraq.
Bush: I felt like telling Kofi to call, to get on the phone to Assad and make something happen.
Blair: Yeah.
Bush: [INAUDIBLE]
Blair:[INAUDIBLE]
Bush: We are not blaming the Lebanese government.
Blair: Is this...? (at this point Blair taps the microphone in front of him and the sound is cut.)

[PompeySailor]

Pompey,

Saying the BBC is pro-Israeli is like saying Joseph Goebbels was pro UK.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/4964702.stm

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1072-2174641,00.html

Joe is such a nice English name after all.....

[sirsaltyhelmet]

Perhaps one should study up on the concept of "state supported terrorism" a bit before holding forth on logistical systems for Terrorists such as the Hizboes and Hamas organizations.

The US has never indulged in state sponsored terrorism has it? people and Glass houses springs to mind

[Desert Diner]

Playing the Devil's Advicate here -
Presumeably all UK nationals in Lebanon, bar those in the FO, are there by choice (and who'd take a holiday there?) as ex-pats. They took a decision to go to a place with a very rocky past, and potentially a rocky future. They probably are not, for the present, paying Gordon.
Why then should our Service-people risk their own lives to go and bail them out of the sh!t? The RAC don't come and rescue my car just because I was a member for 20 years, but stopped paying the membership.
Companies such as Control Risks will provide such a service, at a cost. Does HMG recover costs from the evacuees?

Who do you think ultimatley pays HMG's salaries and buys all those toys.

Taxpayers some of which are stranded in a bad place:bored:

[lukeylad]

Just heard on the news that 4 more royal navy ships are on there way.

[PompeySailor]

Just heard on the news that 4 more royal navy ships are on there way.

That's the news catching up. There were already other ships on, or near, station, it's just that the media gets more excited about big ships like the CVS. Always been frustrating to be on task with a CVS and only ever seeing their name mentioned.

[lukeylad]

That's the news catching up. There were already other ships on, or near, station, it's just that the media gets more excited about big ships like the CVS. Always been frustrating to be on task with a CVS and only ever seeing their name mentioned.


Ah right i see dont we already have a frigate for destroyer in the med with the standing NATO force.

[PompeySailor]

Ah right i see dont we already have a frigate for destroyer in the med with the standing NATO force.

Yep - ILLUSTRIOUS and BULWARK have escorts, plus RFA assets allocated. There are other ships in the Med, part of UK TGs and multinationals.

Just waiting for the diplomatic posturing to fail before we embark on what the FCO are calling "the biggest evacuation since Dunkirk."

Medals before teatime!

[lukeylad]

Yep - ILLUSTRIOUS and BULWARK have escorts, plus RFA assets allocated. There are other ships in the Med, part of UK TGs and multinationals.

Just waiting for the diplomatic posturing to fail before we embark on what the FCO are calling "the biggest evacuation since Dunkirk."

Medals before teatime!

OK im sure we did something back in the 60s bigger than this.

Is the ocean out there at the moment ?

[MarkD]

At least UK has assets to put there. Canada has 20+k citizens in Leb and we're chartering two commercial ships :( Seven Canadian citizens have already been killed last I heard.

The problem with NATO assets is that UK is unlikely to be the only ones looking to use them to extract their people.

Wouldn't a fleet of RAF Airbus A330s come in handy right about now, deployed to LCA? :ugh:

As for UNIFIL - it's way too small to do anything and always has been. I don't think there's many Irish personnel left there (there used to be a battalion but since the 2000 agreement the Irish UN commitment has been primarily to African theatres)

The French general in charge needs to ask his boss for some reinforcements (the same boss that's currently ripping Israel for storing up six years of response to attacks across its borders and unloading it all at once).

[Maple 01]

Who do you think ultimately pays HMG's salaries and buys all those toys.

Taxpayers some of which are stranded in a bad place

It's a fair bet that most of them don't actually pay UK tax - that's the appeal of those kinds of places – and a few only remember they’re Brits when it suits

[SASless]

Just waiting for the diplomatic posturing to fail before we embark on what the FCO are calling "the biggest evacuation since Dunkirk."


I suggest this ain't a Dunkirk by any stretch of the imagination!

How many hundreds of ships and boats made the trip between Dover and Dunkirk?

How many dozen squadrons provided CAP?

Over 300,000 combat troops being chased off the continent by several Armies of German troops was it?

That was a real feat.....this is just another pax move.

[Brian Abraham]

Footage on the news a few hours ago of an aircraft going down over Lebanon. Speculation as to what it was ranged from jet, uav to helo. Difficult to tell from the video - rapidly rotating with flame.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Footage on the news a few hours ago of an aircraft going down over Lebanon. Speculation as to what it was ranged from jet, uav to helo. Difficult to tell from the video - rapidly rotating with flame.

If it was IAF or IDF and the pilot got out I wouldn't rate their chances of successfully E&Eing very high.

[lukeylad]

from the bbc:

HMS St Albans, HMS Illustrious, HMS Bulwark and Royal Fleet Auxiliary Fort Victoria Are on there way to the area and the type 42 destroyers HMS Gloucester and HMS York are already there.

[John Blakeley]

I hope that they are all up to date on their Silkworm and related missile tactics - I received this from an Israeli colleague today:

The missile fired on the Israeli Corvette is the most advanced in China, North Korea and Iran (It could be that the Iranians have developed a better version with IR and SAR Recognition at the last phase of the Homing and that they wanted also to test this in a real scenario...). Anyhow this C820 missile has also a Ground to Ground Version which could reach 70 miles and beyond with a GPS guidance.

JB

[MReyn24050]

By Aluf Benn, Haaretz Correspondent, Haaretz Service and Agencies

"French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin on Monday joined British Prime Minister Tony Blair and United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan in calling for the deployment of an international force in southern Lebanon, in order to end the spiraling conflict between Israel and Hezbollah."

Is Tony volunteering more overstretch?

[Radar Muppet]

Chinny,

Thanks.

RM

[The Helpful Stacker]

Chinny
Don't be a ****. Identifying units on current ops is plain stupid. Please erase your post.
Thanks.
RM

Its in the public realm.

Such information is freely available under FOI.

[Radar Muppet]

Fine. So let the bad lads make a FOI request. But don't give them intelligence for free, no matter how miniscule it seems.

[SASless]

Guess them Flags on the tail pylon of the Wokka's isn't a dead giveaway huh?

Along with the numbering on the side of the flying house trailers.

CNN had some awfully nice video and description of the planned operation.

As they say....one photo is worth a thousand words.

[brickhistory]

Bottom line on why Israel doesn't comply with UN resolution 242; The US is the biggest player at the UN, the US is run by rich, powerful Jewish people, rich and powerful Jewish people don't want Israel to 'concede' occupied lands.
Of course no doubt my comments will be seen as anti-semitic, the easiest stone to throw when talking about Israel and its US funded state-sponsored terrorism. Of course the US wouldn't understand that though as terrorism only happens when a plane flies into one of their buildings.
Good to see Israel using a like for like method of retailation. I'm not sure if using an Apache to stop a vehicle in a crowded marketplace is covered by our ROE's though.

Really? Rich Jews run the ENTIRE government/country? Hmmm, so all the Cubans in Miami must be one of the lost tribes, eh? And how about all those Spanish Semitics overrunning our border and gradually, but with increasing gusto, becoming the dominant ethnic group in the US? And let's not forget about all those CEOs and Board Directors who read the Torah in preparation for another salvo of world domination.

Perhaps one is just a wee bit dramatic with the reality?

And regarding some of the posts about how the Jews were terrorists during the British occupation? You're right, they were. Difference is, they won. Same for us during our War of Independence; lot of our Founding Fathers would have hung if we'd lost. IF Osama and his ilk win, then those of us reading this in the coming generations (of course, just the men, because the women will not be allowed to be educated), will be talking about the next thumping of remaining westerners.

So, in the end, might usually does make right; having the will to project that might is a vital part of nationhood, particulary when the other side's stated goal is not to regain land, but to exterminate you. Pretty powerful inducement to pound the crap out of those who kidnap your soldiers and rocket your cities. Is it right, maybe not. But the alternative to Isreal is equally bad.

[Radar Muppet]

SASless

I know that US forces always have the correct unit paintwork on the kit (and very smart it looks too) but we shamble through with what is available and that frequently means 'borrowing' other squadrons' aircraft, support equipment, people, shoelaces and bodge tape. So, a media (pauses to spit in bucket) picture of British forces usually provides better disinformation than the official bullsh?tters.

I stand by my question. Why give it away for free?

[SASless]

Perhaps a better understanding of exactly what UN 242 is all about and how it was interpeted might help. It was you Brits that presented the thing...thus I would assume you own some part of the blame for the way it is written.

Following the June '67, Six-Day War, the situation in the Middle East was discussed by the UN General Assembly, which referred the issue to the Security Council. The key issue was the insistence of the Arab states on a provision for total Israeli withdrawal. After lengthy discussion, the wording "withdrawal from territories conquered.." rather than "withdrawal from the territories conquered" was adopted. Advocates of the Arab cause chose naturally to interpret the two as equivalent. The United States, advocates of this wording, chose to interpret it as allowing for minor border adjustments. The Israeli government interpreted "minor border adjustments’ in a rather liberal way. The Palestine Liberation Organization chose to reject it entirely. The final draft of the Security Council resolution was presented by the British Ambassador, Lord Caradon, on November 22, 1967. It was adopted on the same day.

This resolution, numbered 242, established provisions and principles which, it was hoped, would lead to a solution of the conflict. Resolution 242 was to become the cornerstone of Middle East diplomatic efforts in the coming decades

[Tigs2]

BUT

in 1967 the UN security council issued a resolution stating that Israel MUST pull out of the occupied territories. They are still yet to comply with the resolution!!

This is not Israel bashing! It is just stating fact!

This thread has already been deleted by the mods!!

[Online ACM]

People on this site should watch their mouths! Just because the information can be obtained from other sources does not mean that it is not sensitive information (please excuse the double neg!). It also does not give you the permision or right to release it!:=

[Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!]

IF Osama and his ilk win, then those of us reading this in the coming generations (of course, just the men, because the women will not be allowed to be educated), not forgetting of course that it's only recently that our own side of the great divide has allowed women to be educated / vote / work / join the military / drive and (unfortunately) use a computer :ugh:


Instead of PPrune, will it have to be renamed FFig?

[brickhistory]

not forgetting of course that it's only recently that our own side of the great divide has allowed women to be educated / vote / work / join the military / drive and (unfortunately) use a computer :ugh:


Instead of PPrune, will it have to be renamed FFig?

Didn't say I agreed with the practice........:}


(It's a joke!)

[Maple 01]

Before this gets dumped into the other threads Tigs learn the difference between mandatory UNSCRs and 'desirable' ones - all those against Israel fall into the latter

[OFBSLF]

French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin on Monday joined British Prime Minister Tony Blair and United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan in calling for the deployment of an international force in southern LebanonI thought we tried that once in the 1980s and the results were not exactly stellar...

[Pontious]

Thanks Lukeylad,
I wasn't looking for ships' names and unaware of the routing of the RN ships at the time of posting. On reflection it didn't look like one of ours. I was just wondering if some other 'Carrier equipped' nations were taking it as seriously. It was too small to be one of the USN's 'biggies' and I thought their assets were on the prowl in the Sea of Japan, plus do USMC helo-carriers deploy so close to a war-zone un-escorted?

As for the French, would they risk a capital ship when they can charter a Greek ferry?

Personally I'd get a UN Peacekeeping force into Southern Lebanon as soon as Hezbollah is exterminated then set the IDF loose on 'Ass-ad's' tin pot dictatorship if they refuse to sign an accord agreeing to stop aiding,training,funding and channelling weapons and money to 'Hezbollahcs' from that bunch of camel humping homo's in Tehran. Only with a key ally neutralised can you truly isolate these despotic wankers!


Cheers. I feel better after that.

:ok:

[Climebear]

Personally I'd get a UN Peacekeeping force into Southern Lebanon as soon as Hezbollah is exterminated...
:ok:

My dear Pontious, the trouble is that someone has already thought of that one the UN Interim Force in Lebanon (http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/unifil/) whose mission is:

UNIFIL was created in 1978 to confirm Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon, restore the international peace and security, and help the Lebanese Government restore its effective authority in the area.


I'm not sure that they've been particularly successful in achieving their Operational Endstate, are you?

[Pontious]

My dear Climebear,

I believe UNFIL's mission was to disarm Hezbollah- The IDF's is to get their men back and if Hezbollah gets a damn good kicking in the process then so what? Good riddance to the bastards!

The UN Interim force in Lebanon was never going to achieve this because like most UN sanctioned forces since Korea, they are a toothless tiger and twats like Hezbollahcs exploit that. This time the IDF has pretty much a free hand as long as the IDF is seen to be going out of its way to minimize casualties to the civilian population and target only Hezbollah interests and infrastructure.

Considering the IDF are dealing with an enemy consisting of gutless faggots who regularly hide or launch their rockets and mortars from heavy residential areas, they (IDF) are showing remarkable restraint.

Feel free to compare the relative success of UN mandated 'forces' and that of the IDF in recent operations and theatres, not to mention having the balls to carry these operations through and you'll see that this is a totally differant ballgame.

UN Mandated forces- Undermanned, Politically inept, Muscleless, Powerless, Disrespected, Shambolic, Under supported.

IDF in the current operations HAS Home public support, some support in the country it's bombing, Political support, technological advantage and years of combat expertise and experience PLUS The Will to Survive.

Terrorist groups come and go but States' survive. Do you recall PLO, Red Brigade? Bader-Meinhoff? Soon Hezbollah will join them (God Willing) but they'll spring up again in a few years under a differant guise and Israel will still be here. It's an endless game and a pointless fude. It's a wolf eating rabbits.

If I was a soldier in the IDF, right now, I'd be chomping at the bit to give some agro to Hezbollah....however...

...if I was on a Hezbollah Rocket Battery Team & I'd seen the devastation in Southern Lebanese strongholds of Hezbollah or that rectangular section of South Beirut waged by the IDF, I'd be thinking 'I could be the next IDF target'... and I'd be shaking like a ****ting poodle.

Goodnight.

:ok:

[Blacksheep]

OK im sure we did something back in the 60s bigger than this.
The evacuation of British citizens from Cyprus was bigger than this, but that was in the seventies and no ships were needed. I don't think it measured up to Dunkirk though...

"Make sure you get a nice window seat dear!" - overheard from one old lady as her husband tottered off to a C130, while she was assigned to the next flight. :)

[SASless]

Mathias Dapfner, Chief Executive of the huge German publisher Axel Springer AG, has written a blistering attack in DIE WELT, Germany's largest daily paper, against the timid reaction of Europe in the face of the Islamic threat.
A few days ago Henry Broder wrote in Welt am Sonntag, "Europe - your family name is appeasement." It's a phrase you can't get out of your head because it's so terribly true. Appeasement cost millions of Jews and non- Jews their lives as England and France, allies at the time, negotiated and hesitated too long before they noticed that Hitler had to be fought, not bound to toothless agreements.
Appeasement legitimized and stabilized Communism in the Soviet Union, then East Germany, then all the rest of Eastern Europe where for decades, inhuman suppressive, murderous governments were glorified as the ideologically correct alternative to all other possibilities.
Appeasement crippled Europe when genocide ran rampant in Kosovo, and even though we had absolute proof of ongoing mass-murder, we Europeans debated and debated and debated, and were still debating when finally the Americans had to come from halfway around the world, into Europe yet again, and do our work for us.
Rather than protecting democracy in the Middle East, European appeasement, camouflaged behind the fuzzy word "equidistance," now countenances suicide bombings in Israel by fundamentalist Palestinians. Appeasement generates a mentality that allows Europe to ignore nearly 500,000 victims of Saddam's torture and murder machinery and, moti vated by the self-righteousness of the peace movement, has the gall to issue bad grades to George Bush. Even as it is uncovered that the loudest critics of the American action in Iraq made illicit billions, no, TENS of billions, in the corrupt U.N. Oil-for-Food program.
And now we are faced with a particularly grotesque form of appeasement. How is Germany reacting to the escalating violence by Islamic fundamentalists in Holland and elsewhere? By suggesting that we really should have a "Muslim Holiday" in Germany?
I wish I were joking, but I am not. A substantial fraction of our (German) Government, and if the polls are to be believed, the German people, actually believe that creating an Official State "Muslim Holiday" will somehow spare us from the wrath of the fanatical Islamists. One cannot help but recall Britain's Neville Chamberlain waving the laughable treaty signed by Adolph Hitler, and declaring European "Peace in our time."
What else has to happen before the European public and its political leadership get it? There is a sort of crusade underway, an especially perfidious crusade consisting of systematic attacks by fanatic Muslims, focused on civilians, directed against our free, open Western societies, and intent upon Western Civilization's utter destruction.
It is a conflict that will most likely last longer than any of the great military conflicts of the last century - a conflict conducted by an enemy that cannot be tamed by "tolerance" and "accommodation" but is actually spurred on by such gestures, which have proven to be, and will always be taken by the Islamists for signs of weakness.
Only two recent American Presidents had the courage needed for anti-appeasement: Reagan and Bush. His American critics may quibble over the details, but we Europeans know the truth. We saw it first hand: Ronald Reagan ended the Cold War, freeing half of the German people from nearly 50 years of terror and virtual sla very. And Bush, supported only by the Social Democrat Blair, acting on moral conviction, recognized the danger in the Islamic War against democracy. His place in history will have to be evaluated after a number of years have passed.
In the meantime, Europe sits back with charismatic self-confidence in the multicultural corner, instead of defending liberal society's values and being an attractive center of power on the same playing field as the true great powers, America and China. On the contrary - we Europeans present ourselves, in contrast to those "arrogant Americans," as the World Champions of "tolerance," which even (Germany's Interior Minister) Otto Schily justifiably criticizes.
Why? Because we're so moral? I fear it's more because we're so materialistic so devoid of a moral compass.
For his policies, Bush risks the fall of the dollar, huge amounts of additional national debt, and a massive and persistent burden on the American economy - because unlik e almost all of Europe, Bush realizes what is at stake - literally everything.
While we criticize the "capitalistic robber barons" of America because they seem too sure of their priorities, we timidly defend our Social Welfare systems. Stay out of it! It could get expensive! We'd rather discuss reducing our 35-hour workweek or our dental coverage, or our 4 weeks of paid vacation. Or listen to TV pastors preach about the need to "reach out to terrorists. To understand and forgive."
These days, Europe reminds me of an old woman who, with shaking hands, frantically hides her last pieces of jewelry when she notices a robber breaking into a neighbor's house.
Appeasement? Europe, thy name is Cowardice. God Bless America.

[Roadster280]

I've a Beirut stamp in my passport. I was quite pleased with the reconstruction after the war there. The airport was most impressive. All shiny and new, marble floors, LCD displays everywhere and all.

I don't have any Israeli stamps, (on account of the Arabic ones), though I've been there many times. Israel is a ****hole. Just my observation, having seen all sides of the fences around that area. The odd lighthouse of civilisation (read Marriott or similar hotel) in a sea of trouble. I stayed in the Intercontinental, one of the best hotels I have ever been in, absolutely fantastic. Right across the road from the scene of a nightclub bombing.

I'm British. I live in the US. "Our" involvement (read that any way you like, it's the same) should be to extract our citizens. A directed military operation, in the classic sense of rescuing one's citizens. And those of our friends.

I'm neither for or against Lebanon, Israel, Arabs or Jews. I'm just sick to the back teeth of losing people over a ****hole. Let's get "our" people out of there, and leave those that wish to fight to get on with it. May the best man win. Bollox to a UN "peacekeeping" force. It has not been managed for the last 50 years, so why would a few blue hats and white trucks make a difference now? Been there, got that beret, painted the trucks green again at the end of it.

God speed to the Royal Navy, the Royal Air Force and allied forces as they extract our people.

</SoapBox>

[ORAC]

Evacuation commenced yeaterday by Chinook. The Times. (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,171-2274525,00.html). Lots of others evacuated by cruise ship already.

Explain to me again about the speed advantages of the GFLs.... :}

[Climebear]

Pontious

'The UN Interim force in Lebanon was never going to achieve this because like most UN sanctioned forces since Korea, they are a toothless tiger...

... UN Mandated forces- Undermanned, Politically inept, Muscleless, Powerless, Disrespected, Shambolic, Under supported.'


You pretty much answer you original suggestion for another UN Peacekeeping Force. Do you think a successor to UNIFIL will be any more succesful - with the current make-up of the UNSCR who would give the force its mandate (Russia and China haven't been leaping to Israel's defence)?


OK so I mucked up the quote box!:ugh:

[lukeylad]

Thanks Lukeylad,
I wasn't looking for ships' names and unaware of the routing of the RN ships at the time of posting. On reflection it didn't look like one of ours. I was just wondering if some other 'Carrier equipped' nations were taking it as seriously. It was too small to be one of the USN's 'biggies' and I thought their assets were on the prowl in the Sea of Japan, plus do USMC helo-carriers deploy so close to a war-zone un-escorted?

As for the French, would they risk a capital ship when they can charter a Greek ferry?

Personally I'd get a UN Peacekeeping force into Southern Lebanon as soon as Hezbollah is exterminated then set the IDF loose on 'Ass-ad's' tin pot dictatorship if they refuse to sign an accord agreeing to stop aiding,training,funding and channelling weapons and money to 'Hezbollahcs' from that bunch of camel humping homo's in Tehran. Only with a key ally neutralised can you truly isolate these despotic wankers!


Cheers. I feel better after that.

:ok:

Just had a thought mate italy and spain could have there carrier in the area, theres are smaller that a USMC ship.

[reverserunlocked]

This is a very crap situation for the Lebanese. I've been to Beirut loads of times (was actually booking an AF flight the day this all kicked off, glad I held off to check on dates!) and it's a great place.
The weather's fab, the scenery is interesting, the bars, clubs and restaurants put to shame those in this country and the women - jeez don't even get me started on how many Lebanese women I've wanted to marry....:hmm:
From the many Lebanese I've met, they seem to just want to live their lives in peace. It's just a crying shame that essentially external influences (Syria, Iran, Isreal, the US) are playing out their games on Lebanese soil.
My fillet steak on the top floor restaurant at the Intercontinental will have to wait, it seems...

[Pontious]

Thanks LukeyLad.

SASless- Chilling and frightening yet accurate and startlingly perceptive. It just goes to show that,and I'm eating my words from previous thread contributions I have made, the only Western leader to have learnt anything from history is GWB! Blair and the rest of the European 'Ostriches' have learnt nothing about appeasement. It's quite amazing that history repeats itself, outrageous that no one is doing anything about it. So typically European yet so typically un-British.

Roadster- Ditto.

Climebear.

I agree totally but whatever the composition of any UN Mandated Force, it would have a much better chance of success if Hezbollah was completely neutralised prior to the UN's deployment to the area.

Srebrenica would have been a differant outcome if NATO/UN had offered strong arm support against the Serbs and thinned their numbers out prior to the confrontation which led the Dutch peacekeepers witnessing one of the darkest chapters in European history since the end of hostilities in May 1945.

Just a thought.

[ORAC]

I think you´ll find that Hezbollah (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1908671.stm) are an indigenous, not external Lebanese militia.

UN Resolution 1559 demanded not only the withdrawal of Syrian troops from Lebanon, but amongst other things, the disarming of Hezbollah. Whether through an inability or a reluctance to do so, or probably a mixture of both, the Lebanese government consistently declined to do so.

On December 27, 2005 Katyusha rockets fired from Hezbollah territory hit the Israeli city of Kiryat Shmona. The UN called on the Lebanese government "to extend its control over all its territory, to exert its monopoly on the use of force, and to put an end to all such attacks". It again failed to do so.

Hezbollah has been taking an increasingly strident attitude towards Israel at the behest of the backers, Iran, who have also been increasingly arming them with long range offensive armaments. They claim to have over 10,000 rockets, of various types, and have an increasing capability. (http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2006/07/18/hezbollah_arsenal_may_be_substantial/)

Now, the UN and ousiders may have been willing to cut Lebanon some slack over this, but Israel was not. And the raid into Israel may have been the last straw, or the excuse they were looking for.

Whichever, because the Hezbollah are a native Lebanese organisation, and part of the government, Lebanon cannot be seen as an innocent party - even if a fatally divided one.

[lukeylad]

Did any one notice that the 2 chinooks on the news had the union jack on them. Were these added on for this operation ??

[dominic blake]

BBC Reporter seeks former Chinook pilot/aircrew to talk about the aircraft's possible role in Lebanon evacuation. It's for a radio interview tomorrow morning - but please call Dominic Blake at BBC South 02392 811076 or 07764 354 901 asap. Regards, DB

[South Bound]

Complete aside, but I thought it was only a Union Jack when flown from a ship and that it was a Union Flag at all other times - any thoughts?

[ORAC]

Only makes a difference if being flown as a pedant..... :hmm:

[South Bound]

Always good to get a sensible answer to a genuine question... I don't know the answer, wasn't being a pedant... But thanks Orac

[Almost_done]

From the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5189988.stm).
UN Secretary General Kofi Annan said he expects European nations to contribute troops to a proposed stabilisation force to end the fighting.
"It is urgent that the international community acts to make a difference on the ground," Mr Annan told reporters in Brussels.
Now being a cynic, which European countries will come rushing to the aid of the Lebanon?
Answers on the back of a postage stamp to No10 Downing St please.

[MReyn24050]

From the many Lebanese I've met, they seem to just want to live their lives in peace.

No more so than the people of Isreal.

[7gcbc]

Did any one notice that the 2 chinooks on the news had the union jack on them. Were these added on for this operation ??

When one operates in such a volatile and nervous area, it is wise to display in big plain and easy to identify symbols to whom you are allied with.

Lest one becomes the victim of a weapon handled by a scared, ill trained, poorly disiplined and terrified youth.

[ORAC]

The Union Jack or Flag (http://www.flaginstitute.org/fiunionflag.htm). It reallt does make no difference.

...."It is often stated that the Union Flag should only be described as the Union Jack when flown in the bows of a warship, but this is a relatively recent idea. From early in its life the Admiralty itself frequently referred to the flag as the Union Jack, whatever its use, and in 1902 an Admiralty Circular announced that Their Lordships had decided that either name could be used officially. Such use was given Parliamentary approval in 1908 when it was stated that "the Union Jack should be regarded as the National flag".

[brickhistory]

When one operates in such a volatile and nervous area, it is wise to display in big plain and easy to identify symbols to whom you are allied with.
Lest one becomes the victim of a weapon handled by a scared, ill trained, poorly disiplined and terrified youth.

I'd think a large non-Star of David insignia might actually help in your scenario. Odds are that such a symbol means your scared youth might realize that a missile in not already inbound on him.

Of course, he could just put the RPG down.......

[South Bound]

Thank you O

[7gcbc]

and you assume the scared youth is non-Israeli ? such is your agility of thought.

Only makes a difference if being flown as a pedant.....

pendant , I think you'll find.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

In jack-speak/fishead-speak, a jack is a small flag normally worn on the jackstaff. In days of old, a flag was really big and worn on the mainmast.

ORAC

I quite liked your word play on pendant.

[SASless]

Pontius,

I fear the Western Democracies have allowed their distaste for War to prevent them from seeing that War is sometimes the only response to a threat. Just as in fighting forest fires, a rapid, overwhelming early response prevents the fire from becoming a large and costly event.

Perhaps, we took the wrong view by down sizing our military capabilities and willingess to maintain that overwhelming response capability and now the threat sees us as being vulnerable.

Far better we waste vast sums of money maintaining a strong military and never use it in war than to waste vast sums of money running to hotspots pitching buckets of water onto fires rather than making them all ten alarm fires.

Do you think Iran, Syria, and their proxies would be doing what they are now if they knew with certainty we in the West had the will and capability to conquer them as was done in the old days?

We have allowed ourselves to become weak and thus have become vulnerable.

Starting with the embassy bombings in Lebanon and the Marine barracks bombing that killed 241 US Servicemen, we have never gone after Hizbollah. No wonder they think little of us.

[7gcbc]

No wonder they think little of us.


1983, and then an american battleship in it's rage and impotence (who actually cares which one) fired VW-Beetle size shells at the Lebanese hills in a what could only be described as a theraputic excercise.

Is it any wonder they think the way they do , when every opportunity is squandered in an arrogant and mis-informed and unwarranted superiority that somehow they deserve less than we do ?

Perspectives and Perceptions people, thats what keeps one's tooshey alive :D

[lukeylad]

just read on the beeb 6 sea kings are enroute to the area to help out,

[ORAC]

pendant , I think you'll find.

Actually, if it hadn´t been a bad joke, the pun was on the word pennant.

Nice try though. :hmm:

[brickhistory]

and you assume the scared youth is non-Israeli ? such is your agility of thought.


When your post said "scared, ill trained, poorly disiplined and terrified youth." yes, I made the assumption that you were referring to the Hezb./Hamas side.
Scared? The Israeli trooper might be, probably would be (I would). Ill-trained, poorly disciplined, don't think that would describe the IDF very well. So, I have no problem with standing by my post regarding your scenario.


"Agility of thought" is not a term to describe me, more B-52-ish than F-16-ish, but :ok: for the drive-by cheap shot......well done for missing "pendant" for "pennant," however!

[bad livin']

Horrifying. The phrase world war three was just coined on the BBC. Whether in the context of a worst imaginable outcome or not, hearing those words is a dreadful thing.

[SASless]

I would argue WWIII is upon us....it started with the onset of Islamic Fundamentalist attacks on Western Society. War is sometimes described as the attack upon another nation with the intent to take land and resources or to subjugate another nation's citizens.

Is that exactly what we are confronted with currently? Islamofascists intent upon destroying us and replacing our concepts of freedom and democracy with their own form of government and beliefs?

The question to me is when are we going to mobilize and form an alliance to defeat this meanace?

[Almost_done]

Now my geography and biblical knowledge may be a bit off, been a while since bible, geography and history classes.

The valley plain called Megiddo or Armageddon as it is described in Relevations is quite close to the area of concern at the moment?

Maybe St John got it right after all?

Also I believe there was some significant action there during the WW1 General Allenby I think.

[movadinkampa747]

The question to me is when are we going to mobilize and form an alliance to defeat this meanace?

I thought that is what Bush and Blair did. What about Iraq and Afghanistan?

[Pontious]

SASLess- you're spot on. The Western (mainly European) Demo 'crass' ies have grown weak and hide under the blanket of appeasement. The only saving grace is that it won't continue... Inshallah!;)

God protect those servicemen of all uniforms who assist in the speedy evac. of the innocents in this debarcle.

With the lack of international support for Hezbollah, no UN or G8 call for an un-conditional ceasefire & an unusually silent Arab League, methinks the end of Hezbollah is nigh... for now.

:ok:

[SASless]

Mova,

I am talking a real alliance....all of Europe, the Moderate Arab countries, China, Asian countries...all of us. If we put on a uniform front, the extremists would quickly find themselves isolated.

The goal is to break out the Coca Cola bottles one day and have a sing song...."I would like to teach the world to sing in Harmony" kind of thing.

Well it's thought anyway!:(

[movadinkampa747]

Mova,
I am talking a real alliance....all of Europe, the Moderate Arab countries, China, Asian countries...all of us. If we put on a uniform front, the extremists would quickly find themselves isolated.
The goal is to break out the Coca Cola bottles one day and have a sing song...."I would like to teach the world to sing in Harmony" kind of thing.
Well it's thought anyway!:(

That will be a tall order considering some of the European countries response to GW2. I bet Coca Cola would be happy with its sales figures though.

[CSilvera]

I don't have any Israeli stamps, (on account of the Arabic ones), though I've been there many times. Israel is a ****hole. Just my observation, having seen all sides of the fences around that area. The odd lighthouse of civilisation (read Marriott or similar hotel) in a sea of trouble. I stayed in the Intercontinental, one of the best hotels I have ever been in, absolutely fantastic. Right across the road from the scene of a nightclub bombing.

I'm neither for or against Lebanon, Israel, Arabs or Jews. I'm just sick to the back teeth of losing people over a ****hole. Let's get "our" people out of there, and leave those that wish to fight to get on with it. May the best man win. Bollox to a UN "peacekeeping" force. It has not been managed for the last 50 years, so why would a few blue hats and white trucks make a difference now? Been there, got that beret, painted the trucks green again at the end of it.



</SoapBox> I guess slightly OT, but I've traveled throughout Israel (as well as some in Jordan, Egypt, Mexico, much of Europe) and I would hardly describe it as a "****hole." What neighborhoods did you visit?

[MReyn24050]

I guess slightly OT, but I've traveled throughout Israel (as well as some in Jordan, Egypt, Mexico, much of Europe) and I would hardly describe it as a "****hole." What neighborhoods did you visit?
I totally agree, I also have had the good fortune to travel the world and seen some real "****holes". Roadster280 must not have visited the Isreal I have had the pleasure to visit.
http://www.forumsci.co.il/HPLC/Israel_page_Virtual.html

[LFFC]

Deplorable dilatoriness over Beirut evacuation (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml;jsessionid=A2WNRPCO4DFZ1QFIQMGCFFWAVCBQUIV0?xml=/opinion/2006/07/19/dl1901.xml)

The Ministry of Defence expressed concern about the vulnerability of its ships to attack, and the risk that the proximity of an aircraft carrier to the Lebanese coast could be seen as an aggressive posture.

If, nearly six years after the American destroyer Cole was holed in the confines of Aden harbour, a British carrier group on the open sea is inhibited from carrying out urgent business by the possibility of suicide attacks, then one wonders what purpose the Royal Navy serves.
:E

Shields up Scotty!!

[vecvechookattack]

one wonders what purpose the Royal Navy serves


Diplomacy young man, Diplomacy.


Its all very well the press bleating that France and Greece got their people off earlier......


France and Greece are 1000 nms closer. (give or take a fathom or 2)

[PompeySailor]

Deplorable dilatoriness over Beirut evacuation (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml;jsessionid=A2WNRPCO4DFZ1QFIQMGCFFWAVCBQUIV0?xml=/opinion/2006/07/19/dl1901.xml)

:E

Shields up Scotty!!

Crap Telegraph story, journo too lazy to even do some simple knots/distance/time maths (or realised that it made his story look a little stupid, so he ignored it!).

Anyway, the US should be a little nervous - they only need to look back 40 years to the USS Liberty incident to realise that perhaps you shouldn't turn your back on someone you think is an ally - and to accept that the pro-Israeli power in the government may be stronger than they think.

[SASless]

Visit Jordan....lovely place full of history and more than a few Palestinian Refugee camps. You can spot them by the shine off the tin roofs of the huts.

New York Times reports Israeli ship hit by the improved Silkworm missile did not have its anti-missile defence system operating when hit. The report notes the presence of such weapons in Lebanon were a surprise to the Israeli's.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/19/world/middleeast/19missile.html?ei=5065&en=3d0d943e18a69f22&ex=1153886400&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print

[lukeylad]

H.M.S York is just docking in beruit.

[PompeySailor]

H.M.S York is just docking in beruit.

Next bunch of media fodder to be embarked then. Wonder when the first politician will blag its way to Cyprus to meet them - will it coincide with the CVS, perchance?!

Hopefully they will concentrate away from the whiners (who all seem to have middle-eastern names but a British passport) and concentrate on the people who are doing another job which tests the overstretch and lean manning concepts.

[lukeylad]

So are The two destroyers just going to shuttle people back and forth to cyprus??

[ORAC]

No, I believe the idea is just to take them one way... :cool:

[lukeylad]

No, I believe the idea is just to take them one way... :cool:

haha what i meant is are the destroyers just going to be doing that till the carrier arrives?

[PompeySailor]

haha what i meant is are the destroyers just going to be doing that till the carrier arrives?

Yes. And hoping that Israel doesn't pull a USS Liberty episode again.

[lukeylad]

Yes. And hoping that Israel doesn't pull a USS Liberty episode again.

U.S.S Liberty ?? what happend there ?

[PompeySailor]

U.S.S Liberty ?? what happend there ?

According to the US, nothing. According to Israel, you don't need to know. According to the USS Liberty and the crew that were attacked and killed by Israeli forces, lots. Another "Israeli accident" - despite 8 hours of surveillance. Napalm, rockets, torpedo runs, strafing lifeboats and medical/firefighting crew - just another day in the life of the IDF.

I always thought the "D" meant "Defence"....

Google USS Liberty, and you will see.

[airborne_artist]

Have a read of some of the reader's comments made in response to the Telegraph's article " Deplorable dilatoriness over Beirut evacuation" here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/07/19/dl1901.xml).

Seems that quite a few people are not too impressed with the evacuees' gripes about HMG's speed of response.

[PompeySailor]

Have a read of some of the reader's comments made in response to the Telegraph's article " Deplorable dilatoriness over Beirut evacuation" here (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/07/19/dl1901.xml).

Seems that quite a few people are not too impressed with the evacuees' gripes about HMG's speed of response.

It's all over on ARRSE as well concerning the moaners. Many of which seem to have dual nationality and surprisingly middle eastern surnames!

Doesn't help that the journo concerned has been very lazy with his reporting - but no change there then!

[LFFC]

Quote:
one wonders what purpose the Royal Navy serves




Diplomacy young man, Diplomacy.

Its all very well the press bleating that France and Greece got their people off earlier......

France and Greece are 1000 nms closer. (give or take a fathom or 2)

I hope it's more than just Diplomacy! I hope the 2 new carriers will offer more than that!

Sorry - couldn't resist. Even though I'm a crab, I actually think that article was off-side!

Didn't take you long to go for the bait though did it! ;)

[bad livin']

Great to see that three ships I've served on are currently doing the business. Got an email from a mate on one mighty vessel this morning informing me that it's all running along nicely. Also nice to see the RN being raised in the national conscience after T200, which, IMHO, was blatantly disregarded by just about the entire nation other than those involved in the frankly ballbreaking process of carrying it out! It gets one SO tetchy when large hydrographic vessels anchor in one's own preplanned position.

[South Bound]

Without playing down the part the RN are playing in this, are any of the other light blue out there a bit frustrated at the moment with the lack of coverage. It does get a bit annoying to have our 'Nooks referred to as Army helicopters, or there subsequently being no mention of how they got to Cyprus within 24 hours of being asked 'could you?'. Then to see the RN steam in to the rescue to act as very expensive ferries (was it the French that just hired a ferry and took off 2500 in one go?).

Why are we so bad at marketing ourselves. I am sure this whole op will be a key point in the ongoing justification for capital ships of the future, meanwhile our SH world is stretched beyond imagination and we can't get any more for love nor money. It was good to see HMS G alongside, but will they risk HMS I or use the 'Nooks to ferry the pseudo-British out to her? Will that still be an RN rescue?

Like I said, not a dig at the Navy, fellas, just frustrated...:ugh:

[ORAC]

Next bunch of media fodder to be embarked then. Wonder when the first politician will blag its way to Cyprus to meet them - will it coincide with the CVS, perchance?!

BBC News, Thursday 20th July: ....Four more Royal Navy ships, including the aircraft carrier HMS Illustrious and the commando assault ship HMS Bulwark, will arrive off the Lebanese coast on Thursday. Further evacuations begin at 09.30am local time....

Foreign Office Minister Lord Triesman is going Cyprus to review the pullout. Lord Triesman said: "Our priority continues to be to get those most in need out first, as safely as possible."

Spooky... :uhoh: How do you do that......

[PompeySailor]

Without playing down the part the RN are playing in this, are any of the other light blue out there a bit frustrated at the moment with the lack of coverage. It does get a bit annoying to have our 'Nooks referred to as Army helicopters, or there subsequently being no mention of how they got to Cyprus within 24 hours of being asked 'could you?'. Then to see the RN steam in to the rescue to act as very expensive ferries (was it the French that just hired a ferry and took off 2500 in one go?).

Why are we so bad at marketing ourselves. I am sure this whole op will be a key point in the ongoing justification for capital ships of the future, meanwhile our SH world is stretched beyond imagination and we can't get any more for love nor money. It was good to see HMS G alongside, but will they risk HMS I or use the 'Nooks to ferry the pseudo-British out to her? Will that still be an RN rescue?

Like I said, not a dig at the Navy, fellas, just frustrated...:ugh:

We all get frustrated being called "the Army" whenever we do any form of Joint Ops. Whenever possible, we get an Ensign on display so that it leaves people in as little doubt as possible - whether they are full on CVS battle ensigns or little laminated ones in car windows, etc.

Hiring ferries is great, but when you have (ostensibly) free ships out there, and the chance to push the Grey Funnel Line into public awareness, which route do you think HMG will be taking? The Yanks hired a luxury liner and cruised their people away with free cocktails - which, although was nice for the evacs, made them look like everyone else's richer cousins and appeared arrogant (according to people on the ground out there).

Don't know about airtaxi at the moment, they seem concerned about rocket attacks on any air movement whereas the sea route appears safer for all concerned.

[PompeySailor]

BBC News, Thursday 20th July: ....Four more Royal Navy ships, including the aircraft carrier HMS Illustrious and the commando assault ship HMS Bulwark, will arrive off the Lebanese coast on Thursday. Further evacuations begin at 09.30am local time....

Foreign Office Minister Lord Triesman is going Cyprus to review the pullout. Lord Triesman said: "Our priority continues to be to get those most in need out first, as safely as possible."

Spooky... :uhoh: How do you do that......

Don't know. Must be listening to too many phone calls again.....:oh:

[microlight AV8R]

Live on BBC TV.... Captain of HMS Bulwark being interviewed, describing the operation. I just can,t believe what he just said!!! Serious opsec concerns so I will not repeat it. Unbelievable.

[Widger]

Oh go on, tell us, if he has said something on BBC then it is already in the public domain!

[PompeySailor]

Oh go on, tell us, if he has said something on BBC then it is already in the public domain!

It is in the public domain, however it was exceptionally ill-advised of him to say it, and it will/should not be repeated. He will not be repeating it, and hopefully the BBC will be passing the comments to the editing suite.

He repeated something that was said in a popular red-top yesterday, but owing to serious OPSEC issues, it does not need re-highlighting.

[Widger]

Was it the same comment that was in the Torygraph editorial? If so he is a Berk!

[PompeySailor]

Was it the same comment that was in the Torygraph editorial? If so he is a Berk!

Yes. And in the Sun and the Express, but they were guessing, not stating as fact, which appears to be what he has done. Never mind, it will hopefully all be lost in the background noise.

Back to the task in hand.

[lukeylad]

H.M.S Bulwark and a type 42 are docked in beruit taking on evacuees, going to be there till night fall. Chinook helicopters are shuttleing people out to the Lusty of the coast.

[ORAC]

Ahh, the thanks of a grateful nation, not. The Australian-Lebanese don´t sound happy - Australian govt accused of racism over bungled Lebanon evacuation (http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=98195&version=1&template_id=39&parent_id=21).

[SASless]

From recent news reports....unless the Australian Lebos found themselves delivered from Oz to the beach at Beirut they should not have much to complain about.:E

[Mr-AEO]

It does get a bit annoying to have our 'Nooks referred to as Army helicopters

But SB! They are 'Army' helicopters aren't they? seeing as you are under JHC command and all that;) . Just jostling. Good point made in your post.

A few Jungly friends of mine have been called in at 12 hrs NTM and getting sent to Cyprus.

Question is: What's the SK4's/6c's going to get done there? Surely they can't reach Lebanon from there, so presumably they will be ferrying people from the ships to shore? Furthermore, why do they need extra maintainers on Cyprus if they haven't got cabs? And if they have cabs on Bulwark, then they must have Maintainers on Bulwark so why do they need more? It's not making sense at moment because too many missing pieces of the puzzle - anyone shed any light on this?

[SASless]

A Civilian Bell 412 routinely ran from Cyprus to Beirut for the US Embassy during the Civil War....why should the SeaKings not be able to do the same?

[Mr-AEO]

:\Good question maybe they can, its just that my autoroute didn't do lebanon to cyprus via 'Air'!

And seeing as I didn't have an Atlas to hand I had no idea how far it was.

Now I have looked and I see it is:

Between Beirut, Lebanon and Nicosia, Cyprus, as the crow flies:154 miles (247 km) (134 nautical miles)

so they should be ok, if they only carry 2 small children and a goat.

[PompeySailor]

But SB! They are 'Army' helicopters aren't they? seeing as you are under JHC command and all that;) . Just jostling. Good point made in your post.

A few Jungly friends of mine have been called in at 12 hrs NTM and getting sent to Cyprus.

Question is: What's the SK4's/6c's going to get done there? Surely they can't reach Lebanon from there, so presumably they will be ferrying people from the ships to shore? Furthermore, why do they need extra maintainers on Cyprus if they haven't got cabs? And if they have cabs on Bulwark, then they must have Maintainers on Bulwark so why do they need more? It's not making sense at moment because too many missing pieces of the puzzle - anyone shed any light on this?

You need something to fly the politicians onboard for the PR. They may be used for air taxiiing from ship to shore (Illustrious embarked some using this method). South Lebanon is too hot for the ships to get in to pick people up, so you might find yourself in there, if you are unlucky. They have cabs and maintainters on Bulwark, but you can't plan for the tagged out ones, so it's best to get some out of the spares box.

[Roadster280]

I totally agree, I also have had the good fortune to travel the world and seen some real "****holes". Roadster280 must not have visited the Isreal I have had the pleasure to visit.
http://www.forumsci.co.il/HPLC/Israel_page_Virtual.html

Well, I've been to Tel Aviv, Ra'nana, Haifa, Jerusalem and Bethlehem. What struck me was the poverty. The dirty cities, ****ty cars, the scruffy looking military all over the place, the whores, the deserted building sites, it just was a million miles from the "Jewel of the Middle East" that I had expected. I will say that the food there was excellent.

Don't get me wrong, Egypt and Saudi are much more ****holes, but if I never go back to Israel again, it will be no loss.

I find it hard to accept that the response to border attacks is to bomb the international airport. Imagine if the UK had totalled Buenos Aires international Airport over the Falkland Islands?

Neither side is right in this, but I stand by my comments regarding the Israel I saw. It's not a third world country, but neither is it the "promised land".

[SASless]

Nor was Europe or Russia based upon the pogroms, persecution, and genocide perpetrated by those nations against those of the Jewish faith.

Perhaps it was a poor trade, Jews for Muslims. Maybe the current problems the Western world is having due to the Fundamentalist Islamists is a bit of well earned payback for those past misdeeds.

[BombayDuck]

Meanwhile....

700 Indians evacuated from Lebanon (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1784054.cms)

How many Brits are there, anyway? They took out 700 Indians and a few others (Nepali etc) with three destroyers, including the blessed INS Mumbai.

and stop staring at that miss world contestant on the right!

[ORAC]

How many Brits are there, anyway? Latest figures I´ve seen say 10,000 Brits and up to 20,000 if you include Lebanese/British dual passport holders.

[PompeySailor]

Well, at least we know we are leaving one deserving case behind.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5201956.stm

All those who think that they are going to the UK on Warship take one step forward.

Where do you think you are going, Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammed.....

[microlight AV8R]

Well, at least we know we are leaving one deserving case behind.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5201956.stm

All those who think that they are going to the UK on Warship take one step forward.

Where do you think you are going, Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammed.....

I'd love to see that moment on film :cool:

It should be shown to all of his disciples, what a brave chap :rolleyes:

[airborne_artist]

"The boredom of their 12-hour journey was relieved by screenings of Harry Potter films in the officers' quarters and handouts of sweets."

Just like any normal passage on the Grey Funnel Line then. :ok:

[PompeySailor]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41912000/jpg/_41912548_draw.jpgThere are photos on the web of what purports to be sailors helping Lebanese (or rather, English) children with their colouring books. I would like to confirm that in fact the child is helping the sailor with his Task Book.

[CSilvera]

Well, I've been to Tel Aviv, Ra'nana, Haifa, Jerusalem and Bethlehem. What struck me was the poverty. The dirty cities, ****ty cars, the scruffy looking military all over the place, the whores, the deserted building sites, it just was a million miles from the "Jewel of the Middle East" that I had expected. I will say that the food there was excellent.
Don't get me wrong, Egypt and Saudi are much more ****holes, but if I never go back to Israel again, it will be no loss.
I find it hard to accept that the response to border attacks is to bomb the international airport. Imagine if the UK had totalled Buenos Aires international Airport over the Falkland Islands?
Neither side is right in this, but I stand by my comments regarding the Israel I saw. It's not a third world country, but neither is it the "promised land".
poverty in Ra'anana? Where? Bethlehem, yes, I could see that, but where were you in TA? Or Haifa? There's serious money in those cities. And cranes are up everywhere--are you sure the sites were deserted?

[tonker]

Where's the People's Front Of Judea when you need em eh eh eh?

[Wholigan]

The only people we hate more than the Romans are the f***ing Judean People's Front.

And the Judean Popular People's Front.

[SASless]

Reg: All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

Attendee: Brought peace?

Reg: Oh, peace -- shut up!:ugh:

[MReyn24050]

Well, I've been to Tel Aviv, Ra'nana, Haifa, Jerusalem and Bethlehem. What struck me was the poverty. The dirty cities, ****ty cars, the scruffy looking military all over the place, the whores, the deserted building sites, it just was a million miles from the "Jewel of the Middle East" that I had expected. I will say that the food there was excellent.

Really?
Tel Aviv:-
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/ViewfromAzrieliCentre.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/TelAvivBeach.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c67/sabamel/AzrielitowersTelaviv.jpg

[lukeylad]

Well, I've been to Tel Aviv, Ra'nana, Haifa, Jerusalem and Bethlehem. What struck me was the poverty. The dirty cities, ****ty cars, the scruffy looking military all over the place, the whores, the deserted building sites, it just was a million miles from the "Jewel of the Middle East" that I had expected. I will say that the food there was excellent.

Don't get me wrong, Egypt and Saudi are much more ****holes, but if I never go back to Israel again, it will be no loss.

I find it hard to accept that the response to border attacks is to bomb the international airport. Imagine if the UK had totalled Buenos Aires international Airport over the Falkland Islands?

Neither side is right in this, but I stand by my comments regarding the Israel I saw. It's not a third world country, but neither is it the "promised land".

What the hell you talking about citys in israel put the rest of the middle east to shame there a well developed country.

[MarkD]

orac

Johnny Howard made a call to his best buddy "Steve" Harper about help getting the Aussies back. Interesting that 50,000 Canadians in Leb is per capita about the same as 25,000 Aussies. In any case, Howard should have called a country that might be able to lift them before Christmas given that Canada has no naval or dedicated air assets in the area and is depending on six small civvy ferries.

Both Aus and Can are ,000s of km away and the local communities in both countries can't understand why they're not all home yet :ugh: :hmm: :rolleyes: :mad:

[vecvechookattack]

What struck me was the poverty. The dirty cities, ****ty cars, the scruffy looking military all over the place, the whores, the deserted building sites, it just was a million miles from the "Jewel of the Middle East" that I had expected. I will say that the food there was excellent.You were lost mate....That was Portsmouth

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Actually, I thought it was jolly decent of the Israelis granting safe passage, on request, to the World's senior Navy. It was even more gracious granting it in a Sovereign nations waters that were actually bugger all to do with them. God bless PJHQ and Downing Street.

[PompeySailor]

Actually, I thought it was jolly decent of the Israelis granting safe passage, on request, to the World's senior Navy. It was even more gracious granting it in a Sovereign nations waters that were actually bugger all to do with them. God bless PJHQ and Downing Street.

And you expected anything else from the spineless ones?

Rumour (repeat, rumour) has it that the CO (Cap'n Bob C) of the Illustrious is not a happy chappy. Final commission at sea for him, reported as saying that he wanted to "go out active" - I do believe he may have been hanging out for live ops. Also he seems to be unhappy with the Gloucester, as they were there first and got on with the job whilst the behemoth CVS came on for the second half. Imposed a comms-silent procedure on the Gloucester even though it was all over the papers, and then lifted the silent emcon for Senior Rates and above only! The RN Community site is interesting for the comments from wives and partners, especially for the over-restrictive security policy in force, considering that Sky, BBC, CNN etc made it all fairly obvious what was happening. All did a good job, don't get me wrong, but we still don't get it quite right when it comes to people left at home having to second-guess situations and events from media reporting which has been known to get it wrong or to put a different slant on things.

An no, the NPFS are not the answer - a worse than useless branch which is being allowed, thankfully, to wither and die. Did the RAF rear-echelon wives and mothers battalion get a better deal than the RN?