Commercial Pilots - Navigation Techniques

[Mamakim]

All of us in flight training got taught 6 minute markers or 6 mile markers or 1/3 markers etc so that we knew where we were and could revise our ETA and GS along the way a bit easier as well as those 1:60's if we were off track.

Just wondering how many of you working pilots out there still employ these same techniques??

Have you modified it somewhat, still use it the way the flying school taught you or do you just simply draw the line on the map and go from there??

Interested to hear people's opionions and techniques and how if at all have they varied.


Cheers all

MK

[Jose Cuervo]

As a working pilot, I think GPS has made manual navigation like this redundant.

[disco_air]

What the tequila man said.

GPS aka Captain Garmin, brain, geeps makes life and flight planning easier. You can chase the best groundspeed, fly an accurate track, plan descents etc etc

BUT these cant be taken for granted, always have a map handy with a line drawn on it, a flight plan with distances and tracks (as a working pilot, usually a computer generated one) and have a fair idea where you are anyway, incase it goes blink or starts giving bogus information. Be prepared to pull out the old steam driven kit!

...Disco

[J430]

What do you do when your GPS goes AFU?

Pull out your spare GPS!

J:ok:

[disco_air]

Pull out your spare GPS!


Precisely! :p

...disco

[J430]

If in VMC, change to an IFR flight.

I Follow Roads, Railways, Rivers R............

J:ok:

[Capt Claret]

Wot's a map? :confused: ;)

[disco_air]

Wot's a map?

One of the page screens on the GPS display ;)

[wdn]

maps indeed := - charts are what i used to use ;)

[NOtimTAMs]

MamaK
It looks like I'm the only obsessive compulsive around here!
I do quite a bit of time single engine IFR and love the GNS 430/530 and the backup handheld - takes the brain work out of estimates, TOD etc. However, I do actually mark the planned track (and/or diversions as they happen) on an appropriate visual chart as well as 10 NM markers - and then keep track of them in flight using the GPS, marking off every 10NM (you can use whatever distance or time takes your fancy depending on ACFT groundspeed). If the GPS system goes belly up, I continue to have a good idea of where I was +/- a few minutes and if the fan goes quiet in IMC or on top I have a good idea of exactly where lower terrain may be and is also a good help if diverting from a track which has an LSALT lower than, say, Grid LSALT. Needless to say, a good autopilot helps stop the juggling of pens charts and yoke!
All of this is still useful in twins, especially those with poor single engine performance (most of the GA fleet!), just a bit busier again - choose 20 nm markers or so.
Keeps you busier than you otherwise might need to be but nothing beats it for situational awareness... and on a clear day over familiar terrain - nah, I don't do it then.

[Damien Toohey 64]

Hi there Mamakim,

Draw your track, add 10 mile markers and preselect 1 or 2 x-track features which cut your track like a river/road or powerlines.

Using your nav computer crossing one of the x-track features simply time the distance to the nearest 30 seconds and calculate your exact groundspeed. Easy to do with one hand.

The 10 mile markers can be used for a rough groundspeed and estimate at first though. If forecast h/wind is 20 kts and you're in a 120kt aircraft then groundspeed becomes 100kts ( 1.5 nm/min ). If you have a 20 kt t/w then your groundspeed becomes 140kts ( 2.5 nm/min ) etc.

Using the handy 10 nm markers you can simply estimate that:

10/1.5 = 10/3x2 = 6 mins
10/2.5 = 10/5x2 = 4 mins

Therefore you can estimate for planned track or a diversion and back it up with a x-track groundspeed check. Also if you're 5 miles left of track in 20 miles and it took 6 mins to fly 10 nm ( 60/5 = 12deg ) x 2 = 24 kts of wind from the right fwd quadrant. That way you know the direction and velocity to apply to subsequnt legs and 10 nm becomes the easiest way to calculate everything. I used to teach this method to Qantas cadets.

Hope it helps. Damo:ok:

[morno]

But disco don't you operate dual gps ops at all times anyway? :}

[transonic dragon]

As a working pilot, I think GPS has made manual navigation like this redundant.

Sorry, mio Mexicano amigo, but that's a load of crap. It's completely legitimate, practical and professional, to use a map. Personally, I put lines on my maps, but no markers. I check my map position by DR (and visually if I can) about every ten minutes, if only just a glance, to keep the GPS and navaids honest. I have defintely encountered navaid/GPS failures, along with a complete electrical shutdown, in my shortish career.

I have ICUSed a few pilots recently, on extensive multi-stage routes, and a couple of them had absolutely no clue at all where they were when I failed the GPS on them. In one case, it took the ICUSee nearly 10 minutes - I kid you not -for him to find his position on the map, and that was after I'd pointed it out for him. Not a single line on a map, let alone markers, but he was inordinately proud of how neat and pristine his maps were due to complete lack of use.

I love GPS, and never go without it; it's still my main means of getting about. It can't be beaten when you've been dodging storms for the last two hours and you're 50 miles off track. But for god's sake, people, remember how to use a map, and have your route drawn on it. It takes about 20 seconds, and could save your sorry arse, if only from embarrassment.

[Mr Garrison]

I was told to use 1/3, 2/3 and 1/2 markers - still use them today and work as a pilot in the Kimberly region - I still find that it helps with ETA revisions and the 1:60's which I still use to this day despite the fact that my little GPS works a treat.

I think its important to keep your skills up as you never know when your dooby will go clunk - at that point you wish you had your skills fine tuned. I don't take second chances and the flying school taught you these skills so put them to some use.

It only takes an extra 2-3 mins to draw these markers in so why not ehh.

[MOR]

Quite right, if you lose your GPS, your radios, your ADF, your VOR receiver, then a map is a bloody good idea.

Of course if you are keeping a nav log up to date, finding your position in the event of complete navaid and radio failure is a doddle. Lines and markers on maps are for newly-minted CPLs who don't know any better.

One assumes that when you say "working pilot" you are referring to a single pilot banging around in a piston single or light twin... us "other" working pilots who fly bigger machinery probably haven't used a map in years (other than a radio nav chart).

[Lodown]

Just to add my little bit, I visually navigate a little like transonic there. The GPS is nice to have, but I still have a line on my chart. In VFR, the GPS is used more to confirm my position than as a sole navigation device.
I too went through training drawing little 10 minute marks, but soon dumped that practise in favour of getting airborne without wasting a lot of time and looking out the window to see what was actually apparent on the ground. My navigation is a bit of a two way street. I look for surface features that match the line on the chart when I initially set the track, but after that I rely more on the reverse when I look for indications on the chart that match the surface features I see outside. I then revise my estimates, track, etc., based on those observations. I can still recite the distances to the tip of my index finger and thumb from various knuckle creases and skin folds.
The protractor was nice in training to get an accurate result that matched the examiner on the written exams, but in practice it disappeared into the bottom of my disused nav bag many, many years ago. You should be able to estimate tracks and courses within plus or minus 5 degrees and that is good enough for most VFR flying.
In marginal VFR, I rarely look at the GPS other than for an indication of the effects of wind. Otherwise, it's eyes mostly outside looking for prominent indications of position cross referenced with the chart folowing beaches, roads, railway lines, creeks, valleys, etc. The GPS in that situation is looked at very rarely. When you're dodging and weaving and looking for obstructions, gaps and openings through the murk, the GPS can be a distraction. It comes in handy later when conditions improve to get an accurate plot on the chart when I can sit back and enjoy the scenery again.
Having said that, there are a hundred and one ways to skin a cat.

[scrambler]

Nothing I love more that to fly VFR with a new pilot who is constantly correcting their course by one or two degrees to line up with the GPS. :ugh:
Or when you call up somone to ask their estimate for somewhere and getting told (I am VFR I don't need an estimate)

I like to go back to basics.

PLAN Draw a line on your map, put the dist and track on your flight plan. Also place your markers (1/2 way, 10 NM etc). Get a forcast and calculate headings & time. (& Fuel endurance, reserves)

FLY - Set up your calculated course on that heading pick a point on the horizon and fly to that point.

The above process should be done for each flight. (Yes on familiar routes none of us do this process, we just follow the same features, nothing wrong with this either on a good day).

On maps you would use your marker be it 1/2 way, 10NM etc. to visually locate your track error and correct it. from this point you would pick a new heading and fly to a point in the distance.

With GPS I like to use the GPS to pick my track error early (if there is one >5 degrees). Then pick my new heading. Then fly to a point on the Horizon. I also like to put my ammended heading on to the flight plan along with my revised ETA.

Now I can look out the window and fly the aeroplane. I don't need to constantly look at the GPS. If in unfamiliar territory I can have a look at the map to be aware of my current position.

[Disco Stu]

So a few more basic aviation skills go down the gurgler in favour of "new" technology.

I suppose someone will be asking how to use a prayer wheel next.

Disco Stu

[transonic dragon]

Nothing I love more that to fly VFR with a new pilot who is constantly correcting their course by one or two degrees to line up with the GPS. :ugh:
Or when you call up somone to ask their estimate for somewhere and getting told (I am VFR I don't need an estimate.

Yeah, I know what you mean. Set the GPS up right and just stick to your heading. Correct once every 5-6 minutes at the most.

And I love the inbound calls which give their position as 9.73nm east, circuit time 0135 and 28 seconds!

[ContactMeNow]

So a few more basic aviation skills go down the gurgler in favour of "new" technology.

I suppose someone will be asking how to use a prayer wheel next.

Disco Stu

Whats this prayer wheel you speak of disco?

[tinpis]

Maps were a bugger.They blew out of the old Tiger Moths and yer where up sh!t creek.
I found the Shell road map atlas was the best.

[Soulman]

I found the Shell road map atlas was the best.

Funny you mention that - have heard that Polair use a Melways for navigation?

[Ratshit]

"Prayer wheel"? - don't even carry one for show anymore.

1) Hard copy FP with legs, tracks, time intervals.
2) Electronic FP on electronic flight bag (EFB).
3) FP on GNS430 (GPS 1) coupled to autopilot
4) Jeppesen JeppView Flightdeck EFB and moving map (including eWAC charts with track following) on yoke mounted mini-tablet computer with blue-tooth GPS (GPS 2)
5) Backup Garmin GPSMAP296 (GPS 3)
6) Paper charts and maps in the bag behind the seat - just in case

:ok: :ok:

[Over and gout]

So a few more basic aviation skills go down the gurgler in favour of "new" technology.

Disco Stu


I would imagine when the prayer wheel was invented the same comments were made..:p

I can picture it now "What would you do if the prayer wheel fails?...you should be doing it all in your head......." etc:ok: :ok:

[concrete wings]

When I was up north I relied on the CNS, when you saw all your passenger's heads tilt towards their community you knew you had gone past it!!

Hot tip for the new starts, make sure your torch uses the same batteries as your GPS so when it blinks "Battery low" you can use your torch batteries as spares, if you have happened to lend your new batteries to a mate...

[Lodown]

Once I got rid of the protractor, the prayer wheel soon followed. I just plan every flight using expected ground speed and add or subtract a few minutes for wind. After take-off, pick up the track, lay off a drift angle to maintain the track and make any corrections needed en route. It's not the rocket science that the theory protaganists make it out to be. Now if I was flying back seat to Bert Hinkler, it would be a different matter, but these days...

[Pinky the pilot]

Have'nt flown anything now in over 12 months:{ :{ but always had the prayer wheel and charts (WAC and IFR) with me when I did.
The last a/c I flew was a Seneca1, YPFL-YBCG with a couple of stops in between and my old mate 'Murphy' was along for the ride as well. :mad:
The GPS died, ADF was next to useless, no DME and few VOR stations along the way so it was back to basics.
And I thoroughly enjoyed the whole thing!:ok: :ok:

[tinpis]

Last plane tin flew had 2 x INS with auto update DMD/DME DME/VOR

Thunk that were pretty clever I did.:ok:

Never seen one them GPS thingys.

[compressor stall]

If both GPS's fall over, first thing (after the CB checks etc) I'd be doing is pulling the third GPS out of the survival kit, then grabbing the astrocompass followed by the almanac. No doubt significant head scratching would follow....

And I have used the aboriginal direction finder in anger once at not very high scudrunning in a 210 somewhere around Elcho Island. It worked a treat!

[disco_air]

make sure your torch uses the same batteries as your GPS

:ok:

...disco

[carro]

"Prayer wheel"? - don't even carry one for show anymore.

1) Hard copy FP with legs, tracks, time intervals.
2) Electronic FP on electronic flight bag (EFB).
3) FP on GNS430 (GPS 1) coupled to autopilot
4) Jeppesen JeppView Flightdeck EFB and moving map (including eWAC charts with track following) on yoke mounted mini-tablet computer with blue-tooth GPS (GPS 2)
5) Backup Garmin GPSMAP296 (GPS 3)
6) Paper charts and maps in the bag behind the seat - just in case

:ok: :ok:


Hahaha,

Good to see Rat**** likes the redundancy, although working with about 10 flight plans might be a tad over the top:ok:

Carro man

[novicef]

I have been studying for the ATPL Nav exam and have not found anything about there being a limit of 15 degrees for the 1:60 Rule. However when I mentioned it to a retired SCPL ground instructor he said that if the TE and Closing angle together exceeded 15 degrees the 1:60 rule should not be used because it was an approximation and that for exam purposes the then DOT required you to calculate a wind and apply it to the new track.

[ContactMeNow]

All good jump pilots carry this in their nav bag;


Relevant VTC, VNC, WACs (you never know where you may end up)
WAC ruler (essential for those "one in sixties" and revised estimates)
Whiz wheel/prayer wheel (see above)
Handheld GPS (incase your primary one fails on "jump run")I also forgot to mention before I take-off I ensure that all my charts have the relevant "mile markers". From experience I will suggest, 1nm for the VTC, 5nm for the VNC and 10nm for the WAC :hmm:

Keep up the good work :ok:

CMN :E

[MOR]

Wow... talk about making a simple task inordinately complex!

[disco_air]

GOLD! :D

How many 1/60's do you manage to do between the airfield and the drop zone? :}

Speaking of old-school techniques, how many pilots still know morse code well?

...Disco

[Oktas8]

Speaking of old-school techniques, how many pilots still know morse code well?

-. --- -. .

Long live self-identifying glass cockpits. Except the stupid Garmin 1000 which self identifies VOR but not DME. Go figure.

[Pinky the pilot]

Speaking of old-school techniques, how many pilots still know morse code well?



Don't laugh! I have heard more than once and from several sources over the last few years that there are 'some in authority' whom would like to see the requirement for a basic knowledge in morse reinstated!:eek: :uhoh:
I've still got the teach yourself audio tapes (Dyson Holland ??) that I bought for a steal from one of TK's IFR students back in the days when it still was a requirement.

[rmcdonal]

So are we talking about VFR or IFR ops? If the GPS goes bye-bye IFR then back to NDB/VOR navigation which you where monitoring anyway. What good is a VFR chart in the pitch black of night in and out of cloud where you can’t see the ground anyway? And if you then go onto say “what if everything failed” then you are going to be spending a hell of a lot of time trying to hand fly an aircraft in crap conditions anyway, let alone trying to unfold a WAC chart and plot your course every 10min.
The Pax see a pilot who is continually looking at there charts to be lost.

VFR nav on the other hand I still pull out the chart and have a glance, normally no lines drawn on however.
All else fails I still have my Garmin 196 in my headset bag.
:8

[Kickatinalong]

Prayer Wheel is the thing Tibetians walk around and spin with their hand, I Don't know what pilots are coming to.:ugh: :ugh: :=
Kickatinalong

[Over and gout]

Don't laugh! I have heard more than once and from several sources over the last few years that there are 'some in authority' whom would like to see the requirement for a basic knowledge in morse reinstated!:eek: :uhoh:
I've still got the teach yourself audio tapes (Dyson Holland ??) that I bought for a steal from one of TK's IFR students back in the days when it still was a requirement.


I cannot think of one useful thing about learning morse code.

[ContactMeNow]

I cannot think of one useful thing about learning morse code.

Remember the times when you watch those old WW2 movies and you hear them interecepting morse code...

Just one of the many useful applications it has :E

CMN :ok:

[Over and gout]

Remember the times when you watch those old WW2 movies and you hear them interecepting morse code...

Just one of the many useful applications it has :E

CMN :ok:


I knew there must have been a reason!

Another use could be communicating to fellow motorists via the car horn....

Hey why not bring it in as part of school curriculum? They could replace religion with "morse studies":ok:

[ContactMeNow]

I knew there must have been a reason!

Another use could be communicating to fellow motorists via the car horn....

Hey why not bring it in as part of school curriculum? They could replace religion with "morse studies":ok:

Some people may find that more useful!

[transonic dragon]

GOLD! :D
How many 1/60's do you manage to do between the airfield and the drop zone? :}
Speaking of old-school techniques, how many pilots still know morse code well?
...Disco
HA! As an ex meat-bomber myself I can attest to the "battery hen" syndrome a lot of the DiverDrivers get when having to leave their 5nm radius. Just can't cope, I'm serious. I'm a charter jock now, so any legs less than 250nm are a waste of my precious time. Barely leaving the circuit.

Old-school is tops. Morse is tops. I actually own a bubble sextant, and I can hand-start a Tiger Moth too. So tally-ho old chap, want to go for a flip in my kite, lob some lead at the damned Jerry, jimmy the flak, and blip the old camel back to the circus, then a short snifter after mess? Toodle-pip, old bean!

[Chimbu chuckles]

novicef

However when I mentioned it to a retired SCPL ground instructor he said that if the TE and Closing angle together exceeded 15 degrees the 1:60 rule should not be used because it was an approximation

is crap. (Edit) What he said was crap...I absolutely believe you that he said it!

Back before GPS I was flying a Queenair from Port Moresby to Honiara...at night:ugh:

Because of enroute navaid requirements I had to track via Gurney NDB, Gizo NDB and then down 'The Slot' to Guadacanal and the Honiara VOR...no DMEs. Because of the long overwater legs in the dark I chose to put the forecast winds on my flightplan..first mistake...2nd mistake was using the resulting headings.

By about halfway I was being driven nuts by doubts about the actual wind...it was forecast as blowing from a direction that seemed unlikely given the time of year...I was convinced if I didn't do something I was going to do an Amelia and dissappear into the Pacific. I explained all this to a new pilot who had come to PNG that morning and was sent off with me because the charterers had a 'two pilot' requirement...his eyes sorta got round and bulgy when I did a 1/60 purely based on Dead Reckoning and changed heading in excess of 30 degrees.

Approaching my GETA an hour or so later the ADF was just spinning in lazy circles..and a big line of TS lay across our path. We bashed through those and as soon as we did it snapped EXACTLY to zero relative bearing and RIGHT FECKING AHEAD was an island bathed in moonlight...GIZO.

I use capitals and highlight it because I have a difficult time believing it to this day:} We were about 5 minutes early too:ok:

back in those days I was a enthusiastic employer of 'the old way' and was pretty good at it in general..in fact it wasn't the 'old way' then it was the 'only way':ok:....although I surprised myself that night...and near scared my mate to death...but these days I use an FMC at work and a GPS at play...the enroute charts come out to check a frequency.:E

Anyone else used 'deliberate error nav' in anger...or howgozit charts?

Ahh the good old days:ugh:

[ITCZ]

It is not just the VFR guys that become dependent on the GPS and not question what it says.

Wish I had a beer for every time I heard enroute ATC ask us and others for "latest estimate GAFER" or wherever once we had levelled off at F290/F350 or "latest estimate YWUP"....

Obviously they are asking because some jokers that sit in turboprops and older turbojets don't factor in the TAS and groundspeed changes during climb/descent and just read the ETA off the screen based on present speed :ugh: