NATS college woes?

[5milesbaby]

Heard a rumour today that the course just started at the college had many "no shows" and is quite short on numbers. Anyone know the real truth behind this?

[tori chelli]

A colleague down there tells me 52 have started...if that includes 'no shows' how many were they expecting? Car parking must be fun :)
Tori

[MartinInTheMiddle]

I believe the target was 54 and that the two who did not show were lost because of Medical or Security probs - the B&Bs in Boscombe must be heaving.

[Vlad the Impaler]

A more important question is how many of them will make it out at the other end and will they be any use? It is not their fault but the new condensed college courses seem to be producing a part baked product. Some of our recent ab initios have been a long way behind the drag curve. This is just putting more strain on already stretched resources at unit level........
On that note, good luck boys and girls !!!!!!!!!:ok:

[Dances with Boffins]

Sorry Vlad, but the quantity of baking being applied at Hurn is precisely what was agreed with the units themselves. If CATC is only being tasked with training to a minimum standard then it is for all you good people to apply the rest. We don't give aerodrome ratings to area controllers anymore as it was considered a waste of time. This of course now means that the poor wee buggers are 6 months younger [in ATC experience] by the time they get to you. They've also lost any OJT that they used to have during the CATC course, so they are arriving at [insert unit here] pretty wide-eyed and shell-shocked. You may therefore have to provide some additional "I can't believe they don't know this.." training compared to previous CATC training regimes [post-RGAT; the pre-RGAT stuff really was Basic]. You will find that a lot of the stuff that is reported as "They never told us that.." can be re-classified as "They told us that but I have forgotten it..".:ugh:
Short answer is that if you want it trained at the College, your Unit has to ask for it, and pay for it. At the moment the balance has swung to the Units pretty hard. It is for y'all to team up and push back...
As for the no-shows, you really should try not to believe rumours. 'specially 'round 'ere!:=

[GT3]

the quantity of baking being applied at Hurn is precisely what was agreed with the units themselves.
Don't think the folks at LHR agreed to much!? :ugh:

[chevvron]

Agree with Vlad and GT3; the quality of material reaching units is putting far too much strain on OJTIs; too much is expected of units in training ab initios, especially those smaller units which don't have sufficient staff for a dedicated training section.

[Nogbad the Bad]

When it boils down to it, it's all to do with money.

The cadetship (as it used to be, and not forgetting the class to class system) turned out ATCOs. It was unheard of for someone to fail at their final unit.

But Mr Moneypinchingidiotmanwhocouldn'tgiveastuffaboutsafety decided that the cadetships had to be drastically cut, and the class to class sytem abolished.

And I believe that now all the actual flying content (PPL training and airline liaisons) is also to be cut !!

Ahh but that's progress for ya !!

:D :D :D :D :D :D

[BEXIL160]

the quantity of baking being applied at Hurn is precisely what was agreed with the units themselves

Precisely by who at the units?? Doesn't seem something that any Operational OJTI would agree to (at any unit).

BEX

[2 sheds]

Sorry Vlad, but the quantity of baking being applied at Hurn is precisely what was agreed with the units themselves. If CATC is only being tasked with training to a minimum standard then it is for all you good people to apply the rest. We don't give aerodrome ratings to area controllers anymore as it was considered a waste of time. =

By whom, pray? It certainly was not considered a waste of time by any of the instructors who had any sense, only by one or two who were angling after promotion and were unwilling to contradict management who saw it as a cash saving decision.

[Gonzo]

It was a corporate decision made by the top few at Airports Services/NSL whatever they're called this month.

[2 sheds]

"Corporate decison", eh? Sounds like a blame saving device - "but I was only obeying a corporate decision, nothing to do with me personally, you understand".

[Gonzo]

What I meant by 'corporate' was that the units weren't involved in the decision. In fact, AFAIK many of them weren't even told about the changes to the course.

[2 sheds]

Indeed - I understand. As, I think, has been said before, there ought to be a record of the individuals involved in that decision. They might have a great deal to answer for at some time and have certainly been responsible for dragging down the overall standard of ATC in the UK.

[Gonzo]

Sorry 2 sheds, I misunderstood what you were getting at. I agree. In fact, I'd like to meet the people behind a few of the decisions taken over the last few years......:ugh:

[Nogbad the Bad]

Wanna borrow my Bren Gun, Gonz ? :E
(Sadly deactivated)
:}

[NO 7]

:eek: Looks like u got out just in time Bren! :p

[Bern Oulli]

3 year cadetship anyone?

[Dances with Boffins]

Just don't blame the poor bloody footsloggers at Hurn! :sad:

The way the company works now is that if "The Customers" [that's you lot] don't ask for it or agree to pay for it, then Hurn won't offer to do it as it will be assumed that training to CAP624 standard will be carried out at the unit. If the customer wants full training in [insert skill or competency here] to CAP624 standard to be carried out at Hurn, then we'll do it. What we can't do any more is train the beggars in everything we can think of so that all you have to do is the unit-specifics and the "final polish" for validation. So until the feelings that you are expressing here perculate up to the NSL bods who made "the decision", I'm afraid you are going to have to do all the additional training to hit validation levels.

And if you think it has bottomed-out, think again. The knife is still being weilded.

Berni - 3 years? Don't be daft man. That'd give us a 95% pass-mark or sumfink! What'd we do with all them controllers.:ugh:

[Gonzo]

DwB, nobody with half a brain blames...

the poor bloody footsloggers at Hurn!

...believe me. In fact, I was having dinner with a few senior college people the other week, and I was surprised to find out just how low they thought our opinion of them was!

[Bern Oulli]

DwB. Ah yes, silly me. And there was I thinking there was a shortage.

[Gonzo]

Apparently all our staffing will be sorted by 2009. Or so I was told recently. All units up to complement.

:rolleyes:

[throw a dyce]

Gonzo,
Well when you see the guys at the college getting Band 5 pay for being a ''Teecha'',when we are slogging our guts out operationally then I think a low opinion of them is justified.
We require Twr and App radar to be of any use here on the Airport side,and get paid a whole £ 21 K LESS than these guys.
Try being a teacher in the roughest parts of Glasgow,like my other half used to be.The college instructors get 3 times what REAL teachers get,and the students ain't going give you verbal **** and beat you up.
The college instructors are mega protected,and mega pampered.Come out to the outstations and see what Nats can really do for you.:mad: :eek: :mad:
Thread slip Rant over and out.:mad: sorry :ouch:
Staffing up to complement 2009.:p :p :p :p :p :D :D Better up the wages here then:ok:

[terrain safe]

Does that mean that we are now all peanuts (Complementary). Seriously if the people who decide what students need to know want to come and train on unit, please do, as it is making my life hell. We have to treat them like idiots, and take over whenever it gets "too busy" even after 2 months training. I am happy to help as a mentor whenever atrainee needs it, but they seem to not to be able to cope with the simplest of tasks, and it is not fair on them or me. This is all about doing it on the cheap. If we stop training will it help the problem? Probably not.:ugh::ugh:

/Rant off

[Gonzo]

Terrain Safe:

Complement: "b : the quantity, number, or assortment required to make a thing complete"

Complimentary: "1 a : expressing or containing a compliment (http://www.webster.com/dictionary/compliment) <a complimentary remark> b : FAVORABLE (http://www.webster.com/dictionary/favorable) <the novel received complimentary reviews>
2 : given free as a courtesy or favor"

:E

Guys, I wasn't talking about whether the instructors at the College are worth the salary they get and all that. If you want to discuss that, open another thread. At the end of the day, Dances with Boffins and his colleagues only teach the trainees what they're told to teach them, given limited time and resources. Bear in mind that aerodrome trainees get as much headset time on the whole aerodrome course, as they do in as little as two and a half cycles at a unit. Not much, is it, given the broad spectra of material they have to digest? Let's not get into a pissing contest about a certain old cliche that starts 'those that can, do,.......etc etc. I'm sure we can all come up with some of our colleagues who really shouldn't be OJTIs, or Supervisors, so who are we to condemn? How many of us have been college instructors? How would we react to a bunch of college instructors criticising the way we work?

Anyway, to get this back on track, my gist was that nobody at the units should criticise anyone apart from those who made the decision.

[terrain safe]

Gonzo, I wasn't blaming the College I was blaming the 'decision makers', they are the ones who need to be held to account. BTW when I did my cadetship, many many years ago I had a total of about 20/30 hours before going out on unit. I think the general training I had about ATC in general was far better than that the students are told now. They are taught to pass exams not to be controllers. BTW still not having a go at instructors but the 'system' in general.:ok:

[Gonzo]

Terrain Safe, I wasn't getting at anybody in particular, just wanted to pre-empt anyone else getting in there and escalating it!:ok:

You're 100% correct....The general ATC/aviation training I got even in 98/99 was a lot more comprehensive than trainees get now. However, if you're told to increase trainee output and cut course lengths, which are you going to get rid of? Ten sim runs or an afternoon's visit to Heathrow and a bit of OJT etc etc?

We at the units who are faced with the consequences of these decisions should be putting pressure on our GMs and NSL bigwigs to reverse it. I know we at Heathrow are.:ugh:

[throw a dyce]

Gonzo,
Just reacting to what the college instructors said to you,from the other end of the Federation.
It seems that LL has found way of sourcing the ''Creme de la Creme'':D :D :D from the college.However these people,as you say have have naff all time on R/T and no experience of Radar and overall ATC.
Sure you can teach them ''Cleared to Land'' at LL,but they haven't gained any experience seeing other more complex and varied units....
Agree 100% with what you say.Wait til you get them with no App Radar, or Procedural App rating.:ugh:

[Gonzo]

Dyce,

Wait til you get them with no App Radar

We already do, and have done for the last 18 months, at least. Hence our dramatic fall in the validation rate.

[throw a dyce]

Gonzo,
Yeah with you 100%,
We have to do an in-house procedural course,cos it ain 't done at the college.That because all Nats units are Radar only:Ha Ha ok: :ok:
It used to be that with LL you had to validate somewhere else,before being let loose down there.Not a bad scheme if you ask me.
Need a 45 year old has been...;) ;) ;)

[Gonzo]

Need a 45 year old has been...

We certainly need something! At the present rate we're going backwards!:ugh:

Great for our morale though! :rolleyes:

[Fly Through]

Hmmmm yet they won't recruit experienced controllers from outside NATS to help.............unless you're happy to go to Aberdeen. Sorry thread creep.

[Honey Monster]

Well when you see the guys at the college getting Band 5 pay for being a ''Teecha'',when we are slogging our guts out operationally then I think a low opinion of them is justified.

Throw A Dyce

You too could be a Band 5 "Teecha". No more need to slog your guts out operationally, just sit back & count the cash.

Try it. You might be surprised when you discover that it is not an easy option.

Even when I started back in 1966, when the coal face grade was ATCO 3, Instructors were ATCO 2 and thus paid a premium for imparting the knowledge & skills to the sudents.

Stirring over. I'll shuffle back into the retirement home.


Reg

[GT3]

Hmmmm yet they won't recruit experienced controllers from outside NATS to help.............unless you're happy to go to Aberdeen. Sorry thread creep.

Not true. At least 4 at LHR, I can think of, from the outside world as we speak.

[Quincy M.E.]

As a, soon to be, TATC all this talk of falling validation rates is rather depressing. Do they give you another chance?

As well as being unfair on the units it also sounds a bit unfair on the trainees if the training is not comprehensive enough to give the best chance of passing; especially given the sacrifices some of us have to make to join.

[Fly Through]

From this recent recruitment?

[foghorn]

I'm sorry, Quincy, that's just the way it is. However you've got to be in it to win it. All you can do is not burn bridges in the old job just in case it doesn't work out.

[Quincy M.E.]

Yeah I suppose so foghorn. I guess I should tone down the extravagent way I was going to hand in my notice then! :ok:

[2 sheds]

As a, soon to be, TATC all this talk of falling validation rates is rather depressing. Do they give you another chance?
As well as being unfair on the units it also sounds a bit unfair on the trainees if the training is not comprehensive enough to give the best chance of passing; especially given the sacrifices some of us have to make to join.

Quincy
You have a perfectly good chance of passing but a polite description of the current system is that you will need to "hit the ground running". If you have little or no previous aviation experience, you will have a lot of learning to do, remembering that it is all pertinent, not just theory learning for its own sake. The criticism from college instructors and the unit OJTIs is that trainees now have the bare minimum training whereas they used to have wider experience before going to their first unit. This gave the benefit of broader appreciation and confidence; however, these latter attributes apparently do not appear in the beancounters' tickboxes.

Good luck.

2 s

[Quincy M.E.]

Ah I see, thanks 2 Sheds.

Well I have read MATS part one, nearly have my ppl and apreciate the wider world of aviation so hopefully that will help.

Cheers

Q

[Dances with Boffins]

Sounds like you are well on your way quince. Just get the hang of how many "p"'s in appreciate an you'll do just fine.:ok:

[Number2]

'Apparently all our staffing will be sorted by 2009. Or so I was told recently. All units up to complement.'

Sorry, I know it was posted on the 17th, but I still haven't stopped laughing!

[eyeinthesky]

DWB:

QUOTE
Sounds like you are well on your way quince. Just get the hang of how many "p"'s in appreciate an you'll do just fine.
UNQUOTE

..but remembering the number of "d"s in "and" is no guarantee of success;) :ok:

[Dances with Boffins]

D'oh!:ugh:

[separator]

Amendment:

Remove 'NATS'.

Insert 'Airservices Australia'.

So it goes.

sep

[mats3]

I admit it. I am one of the grossly overpaid instructors.
My main gripe is that they do not pay me enough to deal with the daily frustration :ugh: of not being able to give the trainees what they need to face the big bad world. This is not due to the college staff but because of the short sightedness of the higher echelons of NATS.
If you think it's tough teaching your new arrivals now just wait till they close the college and do the theory by distance learning and ALL the practical at the units. It may happen sooner than you think.:uhoh:

[Number2]

At least GW won't be 'barking' at you at home!