buy yourself a 737 job in HK!!

[Peak Tram Driver]

Check this out.
July 12, 2006
AMERICAN SUPPORT GROUP (B737-800 Captains & First Officers - Hong Kong based)

Tel: ++31515577474

Email: Click here to Apply
Web Site: http://www.asg-jet.com

All people interetsed and be warned the American Support Group has ripped off many pilots by taking the money and not getting people the jobs. They will overcharge you for the rating. The company is run by a dutch crook!!

[Coastrider26]

Unfortunately Peak Tram Driver is right. And I must say I was very supprised to see this guy in Honkers a month ago. He has ripped off dozens of pilots fresh out of flying school.

[AAIGUY]

HKCAD will not provide a license conversion without the sufficent flight experience.

[Fat Clemenza]

Interesting

Please give details... These schemes are too tempting for too many people. If anyone knows anything I think it should be said here soothers will be aware. I saw their ad this morning on climbto350.com and here is the thread about them What a surprise:hmm:

[Aussie]

Coz they dont know hes a crook!!! :{

Aussie

[jynt]

just the fact that the opening page is jam-packed with grammatical errors is in itself a cause for alarm!

[Robssupra]

This scam is !!!

To everybody, you have just been warned by somebody with previous experience in this coldhearted scam.
Stay clear of this guy, this is not an agency you are getting involved with, this is somebody who knows nothing about aviation, is not involved in aviation in any way, shape or form, on the other hand,you will be dealing with somebody that might know somebody in Honk Kong on a personal level ( one of his kid pilots ) and not on a professional level at all.
If your aviation career has any meaning to you, you will not even consider this path, no matter how attractive it might sound to you.
The contract you will ultimately be signing will not be worth the paper it is written on.

I see things aren't going as good as they use to in the past, in the US, thanks to the FAA finally catching up with the companies involved in this scam, now I see he is reverting attention to different parts of the world where there might be loop holes in existance that he can exploit further.

Do not spend a single cent on this deal, you are going to regret it later.

Happy flying to all ...

[Fat Clemenza]

Thanks for the warning dude

But how does this guy operate? I used to know one guy in Paris who ripped off dozens of wannabees and believe me they lost tens of thousands of euros...I could have been one of them but I ended up being smarter than him (with no arrogance at all) thanks to some old relfexes of never paying upfront ...which gives you a chance of reducing potential loss and screw the guy in return.

I'm gonna email him and see what's up with his programme so everyone knows.

If others among PPruners have info, please share.

Cheers

[Smells like...]

Thanks guys. i must say it seemed very inviting. People like this should not be allowed to operate in aviation. They make me sick. Maybe it's time for a watchdog!!!

SL

[NoseGear]

Boys and girls, I don't know of this guy, but trust me (deep throat knows and so does the Peak Driver) CR Airways, the only operator of 737-800's in Hong Kong DO NOT require a type rating to get hired. CR airways will pay for your training. As stated above, the HK CAD will not recognise a type rating without base training, ie, circuits in the actual airplane. Save your dollars, CR is not dealing with this guy.:yuk: :mad:
As a side note, if you have a type rating but have not flown the aircraft in the last year, HK CAD require a full type rating course, how much fun would that be!!?!?:rolleyes: :ugh:

[Fat Clemenza]

Okay guyz, actually I didn't even need to email or contact ASG, an Italian Pilot I know just wrte me this:

"ASG is working with an airline in Hong Kong to bring them type rated pilots. These pilots will first go through a slection process on the sim at Lufthansa. If selected, Pilots will go through a training course: MCC + Type Rating + Line Training. COsts? at least 40,000 euros not including housing and other fees. The exact price should be determined soon.

In return candidates will be guaranteed a job with the HK carrier. This scheme should not be compared with eaglejet who make you pay for everything with no job guarantee"

This looks tricky. As others said it above, the only carrier using the b738 is CR Ariways and they don't make you pay for the type rating and surely not the line training. And 40,000 euros for training only? Not covering other expenses, not even housing is bit :mad: :mad: :mad: :ugh: .

I hope this helps. Just my two cents...

[AAIGUY]

It's not CR. Besides a B737 type can be bought in the USA for $8000 or so.

What is the 40K for?

SCAM... Stay away.


CR has hired guys off Turboprops and given them types. There is no need to pay for your own.

[Fat Clemenza]

"Not CR"...my bad :sad:

[flyr_flyer]

Looks like a con job .. better stay away. I may not have much experience in aviation but buying for a job .. hmmmmm sounds funny. just my 2 cents :)

[ltjng]

Anybody hired by CR flying the B737 now???

From what I know, CR is operating their B737 under wet lease from Hainan airlines. For sure they will hire their own pilots eventually as the regulations required from CAD, however, when will that be?

Any insiders are willing to tell the whole story?

[NoseGear]

Tales from the inside (deepthroat lives). The wetlease 737 from Hainan goes back very soon, CR has its first barbie jet here now operating with its own crews. Second 73 arrives next week, 6 by years end. Most of the CRJ200 guys/girls have completed conversion courses, lots of hiring going on with new pilots arriving all the time. The company is looking for type rated pilots (read experienced on type) to cover the training timeline delays with non typed pilots. Lots of high time turbo prop guys on yes letters awaiting course dates. Contract is getting better in order to attact quality pilots, a shortage is always a good thing:E :ok:
To reiterate the theme of this thread, CR airways is NOT employing ASG in ANY respect. I believe it to be a scam and urge anyone considering it to avoid this individual.
Nosey

[Fat Clemenza]

Application and procedure First Officer B737-800

First of all thank you for responding.
We have received many applications from all over the world with a very various experience of pilots.
As stated in the add pilots have to pay for the typerating if they do not have a current typerating 737-800.
Of course you have the next question how much will it be and what is the guarantee I will have a job after I invested my time and money.
I agree completely, for that reason, before you start the training and make any payment or commitment, you will have a letter of employment from the company to secure your job after completion of training.
Procedure is after you have been reading this additional information and you think this is a great opportunity for you to get your career going please respond and you will receive the application forms from company and CAD.
After you have completed these forms sent them back to my office and I will sent them all together to the company for a first review by the Chief Pilot.
He will make the first decisions and will inform me which pilot can proceed and which pilot we do not consider as an applicant.
After that you will be invited for the interviews and probably a sim session at the trainingcenter. Also at that point you will receive a letter of employment if and when you pass the interview and sim-session and your training will start immediately after that for the typerating.
Costs involved:
AS I have to deal with different kind of pilots and experience we cannot give you an exact amount. Full typerating is Euro 20.000 and MCC course is Euro 5.000 in addition to this other expenses have to be paid for.
A pilot who only has completed his flight training the amount will be for the typerating and other expenses Euro 40.000,-, sim session for interview included.
However the sim-session has to be paid if you would not pass this, by the pilot, exact amount is known before your arrival.
We do the training for the typerating with Lufthansa training center in Frankfurt. Training has to be approved by the company and CAD and currently we are working on that.
Also be aware you need to have completed your MCC course prior to the training for the typerating. This is also a requirement from the company and CAD. Pilots who have a typerating on the 737-200 for example need an upgrade and the amount is depending on experience of the pilot so I cannot give you an exact amount at this point but you will have it prior to you start. Also pilots with jet experience but no experience in type will have a different amount to be paid. On top of that all pilots have to convert the licenses into Hongkong licenses and you also have to do the line training.
We are looking for long term employment and company rule is that all captains are from inside upgrade as soon as we have qualified first officers ready for upgrade. For now we need direct entry captains but will change that as soon as possible. First officers who start now will be able to get an upgrade within 3 years from now and some, depending on their previous experience even much earlier. This also makes your investment worth it.
We know we are talking about a large investment for pilots but on the other hand we also know that you will probably not be able to have a captain position on a 737-800 within a reasonable timeframe.
If and when you feel you should be part of this opportunity please let me know and I will sent you the application forms to be completed and returned.
This part will not cost you anything and it even might help you with further applications in the future if you would not join this after all, at least you get some experience in applying for a job.
First officers who have a current typerating only have to pay the recruitment fee which is an amount in once.
Of course you will also have full information prior to your training about salary and other benefits in order to be able to make your final decsion based on costs and income.
Regards

No Comments:hmm:


Big Fat Clemenza

[NoseGear]

Big boy and I are on the same page re:ASG. There are so many untruths in the letter posted above, anyone considering this needs their head read. I think most who have followed or read this thread would be clued up and avoid this obvious scam, but I wonder/worry about others who have not had the opportunity to be so educated about ASG. Please feel free to copy the information I have posted above and this rebuttal and give it to anyone considering this scam, it would warm the cockles of my heart to burn a scam artist playing on the desperation of a fellow pilot.
Rebuttal:
"As stated in the add pilots have to pay for the typerating if they do not have a current typerating 737-800"This is completely untrue, CR Airways is paying for your type rating, accomodation and transport to and from Hk to the training centre, a per diem, and also half salary whilst under training.
After that you will be invited for the interviews and probably a sim session at the trainingcenter. Also at that point you will receive a letter of employment if and when you pass the interview and sim-session and your training will start immediately after that for the typerating
Interviews are being conducted now, there are NO sim assesments being conducted.
AS I have to deal with different kind of pilots and experience we cannot give you an exact amount. Full typerating is Euro 20.000 and MCC course is Euro 5.000 in addition to this other expenses have to be paid for.
A pilot who only has completed his flight training the amount will be for the typerating and other expenses Euro 40.000,-, sim session for interview included.
However the sim-session has to be paid if you would not pass this, by the pilot, exact amount is known before your arrival.
See above!
We do the training for the typerating with Lufthansa training center in Frankfurt. Training has to be approved by the company and CAD and currently we are working on that.
The ONLY 2 Alteon training centres approved by the Hong Kong CAD are Brisbane, Australia and Seoul, Korea. The company has no plans to get any other facilites approved, as it means a junket for the CAD to do so.
Also be aware you need to have completed your MCC course prior to the training for the typerating. This is also a requirement from the company and CAD. Pilots who have a typerating on the 737-200 for example need an upgrade and the amount is depending on experience of the pilot
There is NO requirement from CAD or CR airways for any pilot to complete an MCC course. Pilots who have flown any variant of the 737, be it 200 series or even 300/400/500/600 must complete a full type rating on the 800/NG series.
Also pilots with jet experience but no experience in type will have a different amount to be paid.
Absolute rubbish. A type rating costs the same totally irrespective of hours.
Of course you will also have full information prior to your training about salary and other benefits in order to be able to make your final decsion based on costs and income.
If anyone has actually contacted this guy, please let me know what he says CR are offering, I would be interested to know.
Pass it on to your mates or anyone you hear talking about this, its time to stamp on these lowlifes, and hard.
Nosey
Big boy, check your pms.

[AAIGUY]

THIS IS ABSOLUTLY FALSE.

1) HKCAD only allow sims to be done in BNE and ICN for the 738.
2) You need a HKD licence (which you get from CR), NOT JAR
3) CR pays it all.


This ASG dude is scamming. Do not fall for it.

[Dan Winterland]

MCC is a JAR requirement and not required for a HK licence.

CR need to issue a statement distancing themselves regarding this organisation, soon after followed by legal action!

[Fat Clemenza]

NG!

I did check my PM's thanx.

One prospective candidate to ASG:

" As a FAA CPL holder, i do not need to undergo an MCC course (it is not required by the FAA) or take the course at an apporved JAA facility such as Lufthansa.I can provide my own B737-800 Type Rating before applying for this position, would I still need to pay €40000? or will Ihave a reduced price? Thanks for your answer"

ASG's Answer?

"
There is a difference between flying in the US and elsewhere.
Company wants the pilots to have the MCC (Multi Crew Coordination course completed).
Also the trainingcenter does not want to type you if you do not have the MCC course completed.
Sure I also know a lot of training facilities where you can get your typerating. However CAD (Hongkong Civil Aviation Authorities have to recognize the trainingfacility prior to you can take the typerating otherwise they do not accept it on your Hongkong licenses and you cannot fly.
Some captains that are responding have to hand over the full training documents on order to get it on the Hongkong licenses and even some have to pass a short exam if they are missing an item the CAD wants to have on the record.
Sorry for this but it is as it is and company makes the rules and we only can follow them or leave it for what it is.
regards"




Still no comments:hmm:


Big Fat Clemenza

[AAIGUY]

Not sure what aother commments there are to give.

The HKG CAD will required any candidate to submit a heap of paper work to get there 528 excemption for ANY airline.. IE CX , kA, CR..

The Only approved B738 training centres air BNE and ICN. NOT LH.

The guy is full of Sh*t..

It's like trying to argue the sky is pink.. The guy can keep saying it's pink as much as he wants.. it's simply not true.

[Cypher]

Urgh... not this guy again..


I almost got suckered into ASG when I was a newbie...

They were pushing for the 'hard sell' everytime I emailed and spoke to them..

They can smell the scent of newbie... much like a shark smells blood... a mile away...

[SeaEagle]

I rang this guy this afternoon. (About 09:20AM his time) I was going to give him the benefit of the doubt and hear what he had to say.

He answered the phone as if I woke him up.
He didn’t identify himself. (Company or Person)
He asked for my experience out-line, which I gave.
He wanted me to send my resume. However I said I wanted some basic details like Pay & Conditions, & the Operator involved first. He said, “It doesn’t work like that”. When I required some info / any info, he shouted, “your wasting my time” and hung up in my ear.

ALL OTHER RECRUITMENT AGENTS GIVE YOU (even advertise) Pay & Conditions, & the Operator involved. :*

[Fat Clemenza]

Otto

You're toast

[Coastrider26]

I think I'd actaully start to see the logic behind this kind of operation all I need to do now is find an airline who might actively be looking for nice stewardesses...

The relevant CAD and company require a bikini contest, wet t-shirt race and a phone number :E:

[Le Pilot]

Nose Gear is right on the money.

CR have no relationship with any Pilot agency...Unless some manager is moonlighting:}

[ramon76]

In defense to ASG, the job will NOT be in CR airlines.
It is a different airline in HK.
Maybe this people are f****!, but you guys get informed first
uh! I almost forgot...... this HK company DOES require an approved MCC!!!!!! it is on their webpage.

[Fat Clemenza]

which airline is it then?

[ramon76]

maybe otto will inform you, as he did to me.

the thing is I am not with otto, because on the airline´s website, you can see that they are taking F-O´s with 2000TT and MCC, and these lucky pilots will get the type rating for free, not paying a dollar.

It is very unfair, that paying they will lower the minimuns.

Oh, aviation is like hell, isn´t it?

[ROO-C26B]

There isn't any other airlines operate B737NG other than CR and HKE in HK.

[ramon76]

Quite evident, dear Watson, if it is not black, it is white.......

:-) the heat is driving me mad, heat plus pilot job applications online, oh dear!

[helldog]

Ok bait taken. I will admit I was entertaining going for thid and have indeed sent my details.

The airline is Hong Kong Express. I smelled a rat some time ago, reason being that on an Australian website HKE are advertising themselves, they do want an MCC and it is for the 737-800. My imediate thought was that they dont mention paying for a type rating.

I will try applying direct see what happens.

Apparently the interview will invole guys coming out from HK to Germany and a sim ride also, could be worth going to the sim just for the experience.

Thanks guys glad I have this info now.:D

[Fat Clemenza]

u're welcome

[Hickory Stick]

This is what I wrote to him:

So your into Hong Kong now for the 737.....Don't worry we all know how much of a scam artist you are!!!! We will all post on Avcanada, Climbto350 and PPrune about your scaming ways!

You are a crook, F**k off.
Cheers!

His Response:

Well at least you could not join in 2000 and still have the same attitude.
Just have fun, still not flying?? I guess no time as you only can waste time.
Further on same to you.
Oh by the way you know anything about law suits for scam??????

I almost got suckered into his scam a few years ago. I was interested but did not have the money he wanted. Anyway I wrote him back and we shall see what he says.

Unfortunately, he will scam some young ones who do not know any better. All it takes is a few years of hard work to get your career off the ground! He is praying on the ones who want it now!!!!

Cheers

[Fat Clemenza]

Man I'm impressed:ok:

[Friendship]

Hi everybody,

Just a report from me: I did ASG jet program.


My experience is: a good program to get your (jet) hours. In one year I flew in the USA almost 800 hours in a Learjet 25D. One of the best times in my life! I flew daily to beautiful places in the Caribbean and USA.

I have a great job in st. Maarten right now thanks to ASG! One of my friends is doing the B737 program with ASG, right now he hasn’t heard anything yet.
So all the people who say bad things about ASG….. have you experienced it yourself??

Otto did with me only good things.

PM me if you want more information.

[Coastrider26]

Very interesting to see that your first post is on such a subjects as defending c people as Mr Otto V who least said have a bad reputation. First question comes to mind is this perhaps Otto himself or does this dude don't want his friends to know he's doing this.


There are several stories out in the open of people washing Learjets for over a year without getting a single hour on the plane...This happened to an old friend of mine as well. And there have been enough articles in his homeland about this guy unfortunately these are in Dutch and not suitable to post on an English Board.

Doing a quick background check (chamber of commerce) and I must admit I couldn't find any company at the address of his website.

[404 Titan]

Friendship

First post eh. I personally would take the word over someone who has had a bad experience with an organisation over someone who appears a mole.

By the way tone down the font. It gives me a headache.:ugh:

[Coastrider26]

Makes me wonders why there is no Chamber of Commerce number on his site couldn't find his company either on the database in Chamber of Commerce (in Holland) Is this because he wants to evade income tax as well.

[Friendship]

sorry about the font....:rolleyes:

I came accidentally on this website because i wanted to know more about ASG’s B737 program. If you search on google (asg b737 Hong Kong), you will find this website.
So that explains the first post. I’m just so wondered about all the negative posts. I know there are several guys not very happy with ASG because they cot “*****”
Very funny I see always the same nicknames say bad things about ASG…… Have you had experience with ASG??
Really, everyone who wish to have more details please PM me!!!

[404 Titan]

Friendship

Now I feel a chill in the air.:cool: :yuk:

[Coastrider26]

Friendship

You're right absolutely right we should give you some credit it takes a lot of guts to set up a new screenname. And I think we should know a bit more before judging you.

<This is where the fun starts>
All parts in Bold are quotes from Friendship's previous posts

1. If you do use google using: "asg b737 Hong Kong" You'll find these places.

Now if you had the time of your LIFE flying the Lear Jet why didn't you call mr Otto V. directly as this is the guy that made it happen to you. If you do a google this site comes up but than again why not call Otto V. directly?!?!?!?.

2. So that explains the first post. I’m just so wondered about all the negative posts. I know there are several guys not very happy with ASG because they cot “*****”

Now admitting people got fcuked by this person but still backing him up as being a good guy doesn't make a lot of sense to me. But I am glad you'll admit people got ****** and had to work over 18 hours a day to pay off bank loans because the acused mr V. did not pay back tbeir money despite him not offering those services as per contract. I recall something about bankruptcy or something likewise but not sure about this.

If this would be your first post how do you found out about PM's so quickly?? Isn't it easier for people to send an email so they know who they'll get the info from??

3. I have a great job in st. Maarten right now thanks to ASG!
Now what did Otto exactly do to get you your current job?? If this job is so great why would you be interesting in leaving your current job for a 737 job which pays less than other contract work???

4. Very funny I see always the same nicknames say bad things about ASG…… Have you had experience with ASG??
Really, everyone who wish to have more details please PM me!!!

Now this is interesting making statements without doing the least amount of research coming to conclusions like this baffles me least said. With regard to myself i can say I've never spoken in a negative way about somebody as far as 404Titan who I don't know but a quick look at his previous posts I can pretty much say the same. The fact you did not say this in your first post clearly shows to me you're trying to give us a bad name why would you want to that???

As for my conclusion about you: You're clearly mr V. himself or a person with a low IQ. First going through an organisation you know had a bad name and than willing to pay US$ 30K or whatever. After having the time of your life moving to ST Maarten /ST Martin you're now willing to pay more money to get a job..This is why the jobmarket in Europe got sick people like you. In short my advice to other people reading this post.Please disregard everything what friendship posted with exception of the part people got fcucked...(Ps FCUK is poplure brand of clothing)

Looking forward to your reply Friendship.

Edited for typos and added quote #3.

[flyr_flyer]

Coastrider is sharp ! Definitely a con job, better stay away. I have been told there is no middle man for a 737 job in HK.

[helldog]

Yep sure looks dodgy. I had sent my details away to this chap, I still wanted to do the interview as he reckons you get 1-2 hours in the sim at the interview. This seems a lot longer than any other interview sim ride I have heard of, usually 30-45 min. But I have not had any word from him for weeks. Whole thing stinks bigtime. Once again I am glad I found this info when I did.

[Peak Tram Driver]

Good to see this guy Otto did not rip off more victims.
Keep up the good work Coastrider!

[Coastrider26]

Just to keep this thread alive did anybody hear from Friendship lately I guess he is parked in the desert with the rest of the Fukkers??

[helldog]

Approx 3.5 weeks since last contact with ASG no return to last contact, looks like the @rse has fallen out of the whole plan. Will post again if I have any news.:cool:

[Fat Clemenza]

Coastrider26 wish I had more hands to give you 4 thumbs up:ok::ok::ok::ok:

[klm1234]

Hi Guys and gals,

I went thorugh the Learjet program of ASG. I had a very good experience did 700 hours on it. Believe me I am not one of the relative, friend etc. of Otto, but just one of the student of ASG.
With me there was another couple of guys from Spain, Italy,Holland all went thorugh the same program with some very good flyong experience..really!!! Thanks to that I have a job now ,5 months after finishing the Learjet program of ASG.

[Coastrider26]

Would be nice if you would be able to give a bit more info KLM1234.

[klm1234]

What info would you like to have Coastrider ?

[Glass Half Empty]

same stilted english written as per friendships posts. Again only a few postings to your credit - nice try you ar^e.

[Fat Clemenza]

KLM1234 bring some facts please, your number of posts does not give you any credibility.

[Coastrider26]

KLM1234,

It would be nice to have some more info to see what ASG did to help you with training. Things like:

Do they have a contact at a bank in case you need a loan to get the money?

If ASG is a good school/agent the bank would be willing to do business with them for quite some time.

More information about the learjet program in general

In the past the people going through ASG ended up washing planes instead of flying them, the only opportunity they got at "driving" it was driving shotgun on a tow truck

What kind of operation did you end up with?

Because Learjet time IMHO is not highly valued by a lot of airlines as it's a single pilot plane. And even flying a C-172 might be a job to some people

Why was there never a revision to that article in Nieuwe Revu?*

Why isn't there an ASG or any of the other names in the Dutch commercial register?
I'm sure you'll have a contract stating it somewhere if so please post it.

If I read seaeagle's and fat Clemenza's posts earlier this thread first thing that comes to mind Rip off.
than again you might not be able to answer that question KLM1234

* Nieuwe Revu is a magazine in the Netherlands (home country of Otto V.)which had an article in it couple of years ago about ASG and how people got ripped off by this guy.

[sir.pratt]

of course that's presuming that klm1234 knows that a learjet doesn't have a high wing and propellor up front....

[adrianphx]

hey coastrider, have you ever seen a learjet? any lear (except some 23 and 24 series) is a multi crew FAR25 airplane that requires 2 pilots! the reason why some airlines don't like that kind of flying time is not because of the fact that it is a learjet. it is only because they like time in airplanes that are heavier than 20000 kg take off weight. so it wouldn't matter what type of light to medium jet you fly, you would always run into the same kind of problems with recognizing the flying time. but after all it's still turbine time ;-) the question with the bank loan. is easy to answer. because most of the companies just relay you to credit institutions that will give you a loan.
a little more info about asg. i actually did their lear program and i am not a friend of otto or so. i don't even know the guy. i talked to him once and that was it. just to stop all the people who are pi***d off at them from going crazy at me and start sending me all those great replies. i started the lear program 2003 and i was and i am still very satisfied with it. i also know a lot of other satisfied pilots that did their program too. so this program wasn't a scam back then when we did it. we all got our flying time and i never washed a lear either ;-) anyways. i also understand that a bunch of people didn't get their money back after enrolling in the end, because the certificate holder in the states that asg was working with (and were asg was sending all the foreign co pilots to) got their 135 charter certificate pulled by the faa. it was not because of the foreign co pilots. it had other operational reasons. after that they just got eaten by their ongoing operational cost after they couldn't fly any more. and that's the short version of the bankrupcy story ;-) as far as it goes to some of the other great stories that co's were washing lears and not flying : it was and still is their own fault. the reason is that they should have complained to the certificate holder and they would have gotten them another gig were they would have been busier. they had like 50 lears at one point and time with operator all over the states and there was always the opportunity to go somewhere. you just had to be flexible. i lived all over the states. a lot of those people just were too convenient and too lazy to relocate. especially they were acting as employees and not as customers, so it was just their own inexperience or lazyness (of at least one person that i know ;-)) anyways long story short ;-) as far as i understand is asg nowadays a big scam and i wouldn't trust them with even with parking my car ;-) so i wouldn't go with anything that they have to offer especially after i saw that they didn't pay some people their money back that they have paid for a program that they didn't receive. as far as paying for training or flying time. it helps sometimes to get an advantage over other pilots ;-) it helped me ;-) please also excuse if there are any gramatical irregularities, since english is not my native language ;-) contact me if you have any questions.
cheers

[Coastrider26]

THE FACTS ABOUT ASG AND OTTO V.

American Support Group is based in the U.S.A. and mr Otto V. is the C.E.O. of it. The address posted on the website is a "local" contact number this is why the company doesn't show up in the Dutch commercial register. Now why would you base your company in the US if you live in Europe or more specific the Netherlands...Well the reason is easy Mr & Mrs V. are both receiving wellfare in the Netherlands.. Apart from the moral question what kind of people would misuse the wellfare system I finally found out how they're able to buy Burberry handbags.

@Adrianphx,

I must admit I did not do my homework about the learjet and have to admit you could be right that the later versions are FAR/JAR 25 multi pilot aircraft.
But if that was an invitation to take a look next time I'm in (BAH) if that's we're you're based I'll be happy to take a look.

As far as Mr V. is concerned I'm happy you got true the program with the hours that he promised and you got a job. The thing that interests me personally why o why did you go through this agency/broker if you knew the history of it. Or if you didn't know if you did any research about it.

The question about the bank and ASG(-JET)...Now I was just wondering if ASG had a account manager with a bank that takes care of the bank loans for students. In the Netherlands it's quite common for a flight school/academy to have an account manager at a bank (I.e. ABN AMRO, ING etc etc) that is specialized in loans for (wanabee)pilots . This way you can tell if the students are able to pay off the loan after their study so you know this school must have a good track record.

[klm1234]

Hi everyone,

ASG Learjet program does not exist anymore, the company closed down.
I am just givin details about my own experience, that was good. I did my initial training in Oklahoma, then went to Florida to fly a Learjet 25D FAR 25 which is not A SINGLE PILOT aircraft. It was an air ambulance operation. I Had a very good experience flying it...a lot hand flying, captain's were very nice and keen to teach you. As a co-pilot you were responsible to make sure everything is ready for the flight.

After a year I stopped because it was time for me to move own. I dont know about other people who had bad experience with ASG, but everyone in my group did make a lot of hours including myself +700. I don't think they have any agreement with any bank. that is your own responsibility.

I hope this answers all your questions and once again I am not one of Otto's relative under different nickname. This is just my experience, that is it!!

[adrianphx]

hey coastrider, sure you can come by and check it out next time you are in kwi ;-) i did all my research back then and went with asg because they were offering the best package for me. i was very lucky because i upgraded after 1 year to captain and continued flying with the certificate holder until sept 2005. the research that i did was very detailed and there was no sign of scam back then. i talked to co pilots in the program, to operators, researched the internet and went to the main office of the certificate holder. everything looked very good so i decided to go for it. it was back then. different story nowadays ;-) i think that asg is scamming now and wouldn't trust them with anything.

[Elias]

Long story short:

The operation in the States is not anymore. Some people particularly at the end got the very bad end of it; the fact that they didn't get reimbursed for services not rendered is a total disgrace and whoever is responsible for that I'm sure feels pretty bad about it (..or maybe not ).
Now,for a good amount of years most of the people DID fly the amount of hours promised, in a pretty demanding environment, flying pretty demanding planes; dealing with extremely nice, not so nice, and pretty screwed up people. During those years, whoever didn't fly, didn't fly because ( maybe deservedly ) expected things to be easier, and didn't pester the appropiate people enough, in order to get to fly the proper amount of time.
So, I wouldn't recommend anybody one way or the other, regarding this new HK deal; as I didn't years ago when anybody would ask me, because I didn't want anybody to come blame me for anything that could happen later on.
Cheers.

[flyr_flyer]

long story short, this is a con job. do not fall for it. there is no such thing as a middle man or agency is dealing with any HK carrier.

[Kerropi]

Deel 1 (http://www.tailstrike.com/OV/OV01.pdf)
Deel 2 (http://www.tailstrike.com/OV/OV02.pdf)
Deel 3 (http://www.tailstrike.com/OV/OV03.pdf)
Article is in Dutch....
Source: http://www.airwork.nl/bulletinboard/showthread.php?t=4966 User: Tailstrike

Sorry no translation available... Basically the article says it's a scam...

[NoseGear]

I can't comment on ASG per se, although where there is smoke, there is generally a fire. I have been scammed by a complete arse earlier on in my career, and I have a deep seated urge to get rid of these parasites on a community as wonderful as aviation.
Freindship, you've got NO :mad: idea mate. There is no carrier in Hong Kong that has signed up to do business with this guy. I have many freinds in Hong Kong Express, who are getting 737s early next year, and they have stated they have no connection whatsoever with Otto or ASG. And CR airways, without giving away too much, definately has no connection with this scam artist. Trust me on that. I know.
You are so obviously Otto V its really quite childish and condescending to see you continue to try and pull the wool over our eyes. Go back into the hole you crawled out of. :rolleyes:

[flyr_flyer]

Nose gear, i agree with you. my friends in HK told me the excact same thing where there is no such or any agency is dealing with any middle man. But I would say lastly, decision is up to the hands of individual and for those who are not taking advise from the people here so let it be and let them find out themselves and i hope it's not too late by then. good luck to those who have taken up the program.

[Coastrider26]

It's to bad the Article Kerropi links to in Dutch but the main points are as I stated earlier as "Facts about ASG". I don't think it's necessary to translate the three page article written by a respectable (news) magazine.

<Sarcastic mode on>If people still think they have to do business with a person as Otto V. please mail me your credit cards details for the poor pilot fund.</Sarcastic mode off>

[AAIGUY]

flightbitch..

Your comments true or otherwise, still do not address the fact there are NO B737-800 jobs for SALE in HKG..

NONE. 0 NADA..

Otto is advertsing something that simply isn't so. That is a scam.

[dragon501]

Ok all.. It is OTTO VELLINGA (spell check but not too far off I think)

The guy has been in European papers years ago for INDEED SCAMMING young inexperienced pilots.

As pointed out before, the lear program he did was one where you paid a sh!t load of dosh and ended up as a gear/flap operator in a SINGLE PILOT CERTIFIED old banger of a Lear. "This flight is sponsored by your co-pilot"

Please PLEASE stay clear of this guy and one more thing... If anyone spots him in HKG... Let me know, I do have some friends who would love to show him the sightsss....

Again, (sorry mod's) it is OTTO VELLINGA..........

Cheers.....

[AAIGUY]

Just contact asg and ask for the original application forms from the company and you will get them, sent by company.
Don't lower yourself to the others. Don't ask others as they know as much as you do.
You only have to ask for the application forms.
And if there is a position or not is not to me to decide but also not to you.
By the way obtaining first your typerating does not mean a job is for sale as you mention, negative again why??????


DUDE>

THERE ARE NO JOBS> I can promise you this. NONE.

Not with CR or HKE.

It doesn't exist. and that's a scam

One company's GM of flying has personally replied to this thread.

SCAM SCAM SCAM

[flyr_flyer]

just let it be then aaiguy, just let those who still don't believe that is a scam let them stick their heads in and regret later.

[helldog]

Flying B. I can not belive you can not appreciate what these guys are trying to do here. Maybe they are frustrated, but hey full credit to them for trying to help others avoid the same trap. Maybe things worked out for you....good. But hey even you state that "some did not make it" Well old son "some" is way to much. How can you endorse a program in which you pay a hell of a lot of money but you could be one of the "some" that dont make it? Not good enough. You might as well pay a bit more and go to a reputable f/o entry program.

Personaly I [applaude] these guys who are trying to help others. Just take a look at what you are saying mate, your getting all worked up and attacking a username on a computer screen, that is in effect what you are doing. Now you may say coastrider26 is doing the same thing but not so, you made a personal attack on the person behind the name. Take a chill pill dude.

Coastrider and others thanks, I say it again I was showing interest in this program and if I had been ripped off it would have ruined me.:D

[helldog]

flightbitch. Lets get one thing straight here man. I am not looking to upset you. But you have to admit you are getting quite upset at the comments here. You say these guys have a motivation to trash this program. Well you must also have a motive for defending it so how shall we say? Enthusiasticaly.

To answer your questions about where are the people that got ripped off. Well right here it would seem. I just cant imagine these type of allegations being made if they were totally untrue. Now if they are not true, lets see some figures as to the %age of "graduates" that have gone on to jobs with this company. If these assertions are not true then the gentleman in question could well consider legal action of his own. Maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle...I dont know. Hey if he ever comes back to me with an offer and it is all legit and is backed and guraunteed by the airline, who knows. Facts are when I spoke to him he was very enthusiastic about the whole thing and said I would have a job for sure etc etc. But He has not come back to me in weeks. But hearing stories like the ones above doesnt make me want to jump at the opportunity.

Cheers man

[Friendship]

:D :D :D FLIGHTBITCH :D :D :D
No comments anymore!!!

Good luck to you all

[NoseGear]

Friendship/flightbitch, I imagine your one and the same person, the mods can easily check that one.:hmm:

You've certainly made some very vitriolic comments, and as helldog pointed out, I can't help but wonder why your getting your knickers in such a twist over comments made about someone else and the scam they are trying to pull on fellow pilots?

The facts are this, there are NO 737 jobs to be bought in Hong Kong, so if Mr O.V. is trying to get money out of pilots for said jobs, then that equals a scam. I personally think "flightbitch", a galling name, should apologize to Coastrider and the other ppruners here for such foul language that more belongs in the gutter than on the pages of this forum. I think it shows a total lack of professionalism on your part, and certainly lends a rather indepth insight into your personality Mr O V.

Nosey

[Coastrider26]

Does anybody know why my last post(s) was deleted was it because I used the word criminal?? Or was it simply because of my nickname for flyingbitch?? If so I'm more than happy to edit the content.

In short the facts we know so far:

- Otto V. & his late wife both ran a social welfare scam source for this information is the Nieuwe Revu article as published above and Mr v. never approached this magazine to have it rectified.

- ASG(-JET) Is based in the U.S. and all contracts between ASG and students are "American" contracts.
Flyingb!tch says he/she has copies of a verdict by Supreme court in Amsterdam that ASG(-JET) did nothing wrong. Why would a Dutch court even touch a case like this based on US Laws

- Otto V. ripped a number of pilots off

- All posts defending mr V. had less than 5 posts total on pprune and showed a lot foul langauge
instead of hard evidence.

- Lufthansa (GECAT) do not require a MCC course to do the 737 rating. However if you want to add a rating to a JAR issued license you do require one.
For the people reading this thread I think you all know what went on so please choose wisely.

- Flyingb!tch got his/her facts wrong most of the time. I.e. number of posts made by people this shows the person in question is not very precise in gathering information.

I'm sure I forgot to mention things I have posted previously but as most people that read them can confirm they we're all pretty long stating hard evidence. But I must admit they also contained some sentences I shouldn't have used this "heated" debate. I think I've made my point and this will be my last post on this subject (for now).

Coastrider26

[Le Pilot]

Hang in there Coastrider.
You were on the right track.
737 jobs do not need to be bought. Available at HKE's and CRs expense.
Anyway
HKE this week in Melbourne (OZ)
CR next week in Kuala Lumpur. [email protected]

[flyr_flyer]

sounds cool. wrote to them but no reply :(

[Fat Clemenza]

Any news from ASG's scam?:E

[Coastrider26]

So far no new (ASG) 737 pilots at HKE

[Fat Clemenza]

then hope this thread will last as long as ASG will!

[helldog]

no news, who cares, dirty b@stard give me back my postage money I used to send my details to you!!!!!! you criminal:E

[Fat Clemenza]

lol!!! :p:ok:

[Coastrider26]

Nothing better to do so..... Still haven't seen any new hires from ASG and I'm starting to think and hope that the people that started their typerating last month with ASG are fakes.

Like I suspected at the time it was just Otto V. himself posting on this website to fill his pockets....well to bad for him we are on to him. Ps. for people interested he's still offering 73 positions in HKG.

Coasty

[infonick]

Anyone has information about a guy called

Jackie Ng,
B737-NG Pilot,
Managing Director of SinoFlite Aviation.

He says that is offering opportunites in China, that his office is in Hong Kong, but for what I know he is just collecting personal info and he is unapproachable.

Cheers

[dragon501]

Scam Scam Scam

[xrossbow 737]

Some media background, I do not think it's recent:

The sky is the limit
Otto Vellinga’s speculation in brokering commercial pilot training

Otto Vellinga (53) is a broker who arranges for students to do their commercial pilot training in the States. Out in the States, the students find the training to be flimsy and rarely get the chance to clock up flying hours. And if they do get the chance, they can find themselves in dangerous aircraft. On top of that it costs an arm and a leg. Back in the Netherlands Otto Vellinga has no qualms about continuing to draw social security benefit.
By Arnold Karskens

Erik (29) who is currently training to be a pilot can count himself lucky. In 1995 a Jet Commander AC 1121 – a twin-engine aircraft belonging to the American Air Network (ANN) – crashed in Guatemala. A week earlier the Dutchman refused to continue flying the aircraft because he didn’t trust the instruments. “I felt it was dangerous. The speedometer and right-hand fuel gauge were not working properly and the fuel tanks were leaking.”
He was flying from Miami to Central America almost daily. A dangerous route often subject to bad weather – as it was on the day of the fatal crash when Erik wasn’t the one flying. His two colleagues didn’t know how much fuel they had on board and tried to land in a nearby airfield. Both died in the attempt. It is now eighteen months since the jet crashed and the American Air Network has not suffered any fatal accidents since, but aircraft have careered off the runway. Erik blames the quality of the training. “The theory lessons on the ground normally take a week. My instructor ran through the whole lot in half an hour.” One of Erik’s fellow students also flew with ANN: “Some of the boys who served as co-pilots had never flown that type of aircraft before and had no idea what they were doing for the first two hundred hours. Another student, Bas Verheul, says that the training with the simulator was discontinued. “When I asked if it was broken, they said, ‘No. The money has run out.’” American Air Network, which provides commercial pilot training, has been struggling with financial problems for years. Erik: “The whole fleet is old and some of the aircraft put people’s lives at risk – as has been proved.”

Erik is one of ten students we spoke to about their pilot training in the States. All of the students were dissatisfied with the training and all had signed a contract with Otto Heinz Vellinga – a Dutch businessman who lives in the little town of Garderen near Barneveld. Vellinga is essentially a broker. He acts as an intermediary between students and aviation schools and flight training courses in the United States. The students describe Otto Heinz Vellinga as an excellent salesman. One of the students said: “He can be very charming, but, when it comes down to it, he is as hard as nails. He has no principles. He will simply say: ‘It’s there in the contract in black and white. It’s not my problem.’”
For a long time Vellinga worked for the Television Licence Fee Department in the Netherlands. After that he ran the Independent Pilot Service in Hoofdorp – an association that advised those who aspired to be pilots. The association was discontinued in 1995 because it no longer offered any obvious advantage as a legal entity. These days he acts as a broker for students who want to train as a pilot. He set up the American Support Group (ASG) for this purpose, which according to its articles of association, is based in New Castle in the American state of Delaware. Vellinga is CEO/President and his wife, Agnes N. Vellinga-Dam, is a director of the American company. The contact address in the Netherlands is Puterweg 46-1 in Garderen, which is Otto Vellinga’s home address. There is a reason why the company is based in the United States. On 1 June 1993 Vellinga started drawing weekly social security benefit of NLG 357.30 under the new Unemployment Insurance Act Every as a resident at the said address, and has continued to do so ever since. His wife also receives benefit from the Industrial Insurance Administration Office in the Netherlands, which in her case amounts to NLG 1773.93 per month. On inquiry, the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) revealed that the couple own two aircraft via ASG-leasing: a single-engine Mooney M-20 (registration number N 9122 V) and a Piper Aztec (registration number N 6326 Y). The latter is a twin-engine aircraft used for multi-engine training. The two aircraft are estimated to be worth approximately a quarter of a million guilders.

ASG President Otto Vellinga places advertisements in newspapers such as De Telegraaf and aviation journals such as Piloot & Vliegtuig to attract students. Those who show an interest are male and female trainee pilots with several flight training certificates who want to gain more practical flight experience.
Vellinga refers those who want to clock up ‘heavy’ jet hours to the American Air Network based in Chesterfield in Missouri, which is presided over by Douglas Gilliland. According to information obtained from the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), over a period of ten years the AAN has failed to comply with the safety regulations on nine occasions. Their offences include failing to respect work and break times, falsifying the logbooks in which the pilots are supposed to note the flying hours they have completed, and flying passenger aircraft without the necessary licence.

Last week Gilliland was in the Netherlands to recruit students together with Otto Vellinga. In a restaurant in Garderen the two outlined the advantages of commercial pilot training in the States to some fifteen potential students. In practice it all boils down to the fact that the students get to serve as co-pilots on regular freight flights – a bit like a co-driver in a truck. But they pay through the nose for the privilege. Vellinga charges each student 45,000 dollars and passes on between 6,000 and 8,000 dollars to the American Air Network. One of the students described it as pure speculation: “As far as they are concerned we are simply cheap labour. We are there on the strength of a student visa, so we are not allowed to earn money. Co-pilots normally earn 250 dollars for a five-hour flight. I earn nothing. In fact I have to pay to be there.”

It is hardly surprising that Vellinga sends his students to the States. The better weather makes for more flying hours. There are fewer flight movements in the Netherlands, which means less chance to clock up ‘heavy hours’. There is also another advantage in sending students to the States – certainly as far as Vellinga is concerned. He can then get them to sign American contracts, which makes it very difficult for them to seek redress through the Dutch courts.
A student who experienced it all first hand said, “When the American Air Network needs personnel Vellinga sends them ten students. One or two of the ten are selected – or are smart enough to get the contract changed before they sign it. They are the ones that get to fly, to the extent that you can call it that at ANN. The other eight are sent from pillar to post. Until they abandon the training. They might spend an hour and a half in the air in six months.”
This was exactly what happened to a student from Bussum. He spent six months in the States, and is now 35,000 dollars worse off – and that’s without counting the travelling and accommodation expenses which added up to 6,000 dollars. He signed the contract on 7 October of last year and was supposed to start training in Miami in December. By the end of March he had completed three thirty minute flights to Guatemala – the same destination that the fated jet was headed for. Again the instructors didn’t bother with the safety regulations. “I already had my licence, but for that particular aircraft you need training and you also need to pass exams. That never happened. The jets are extremely fast and light. A heavy gust of wind will cause them to career off the runway. Things regularly go wrong. I contacted the Federal Aviation Administration and told them ‘I don’t know what’s going on here. They want to put me in a cockpit without any training – that’s illegal.’”
When the student expressed concern to the people at ANN, they made things so difficult for him that he abandoned the training. They kept sending him from one airfield to another. Besides losing a great deal of time, the student also had to cover the travelling expenses and the cost of staying in hotels. “At a certain point you simply run out of money and decide to return to the Netherlands. Then Vellinga says, ‘You abandoned the training.’ The contract states that students who decide not to complete the training are not entitled to a refund.”
Bas Verheul from Utrecht invested 38,250 dollars in the American Support Group and left without gaining any flight training certificates. “I spent 25,000 dollars on the jet training programme, which I never completed, and 9,000 dollars on a type rating certification for a specific aircraft but was never given the training.”
Fellow student Bart travelled out the States at the beginning of December, after paying 100,000 guilders into Vellinga’s account. For that he got to log just 140 hours. “For that amount of money I could have gained all of my flight training certificates at bona fide flight training schools in the same time.

Until recently Vellinga also sent students to the Midwestern Airways flight training school in Escanaba in the state of Michigan, which ran flying courses for beginners who wished to gain their Private Pilot’s Licence. Belgian student Nele Convents (18) signed a contract with Otto Vellinga and paid him 16,800 dollars. She got to spend 26 hours in the air and three months later she returned to Belgium without having gained her licence. “Someone who travelled to the States independently and signed up with any flight training school would pay between 4,000 and 5,000 dollars for the same training,” she says. The instructors at Midwestern Airways flight training school also disregard safety regulations that are considered to be standard practice in the Netherlands. Nele Convents: “There was no VOR (a type of radio navigation system that makes it possible to determine the specific position of an aircraft) and the hydraulic system of the landing gear of one of the single-engine aircraft – a Moony M-20 – didn’t always work. On one occasion the aircraft landed on its body.”
Jan-Frans Blokland (27) from Heerjansdam arrived in Escanaba on 17 January and found the whole set up to be a shambles. He was supposed to undergo a compulsory medical examination but was told that an appointment would be made in due course. There were none of the textbooks needed for the theoretical part of the course. When officials from the Federal Aviation Administration – the agency that sees to it that safety regulations are complied with – visited the airfield, the instructor who taught the theory was out of there like a shot. Blokland: “He was actually an advanced student with 1,300 flying hours under his belt. He wasn’t a qualified instructor.”
Blokland was given his first flying lesson in an aircraft without a radio. “My Norwegian instructor stressed time and time again how dangerous that was.” Jan-Frans Blokland had dreamt of training as a pilot for years. He gave up his job and headed for the branch of the ABN-AMRO bank in Barendrecht where he asked for a loan of 250,000 guilders – enough to cover the cost of gaining a full pilot’s licence at Tulip Air, an accredited flight training school in Amstelveen. The ‘specialist’ at the ABN-AMRO head office – a Mr Zwaneveld – refused to authorise the loan and advised Blokland to train with Otto Vellinga’s American Support Group. He said he would be happy to authorise a loan for such an undertaking. ABN-AMRO had already referred several students to Vellinga and it had been a good move.”
Jan-Frans Blokland: “In the back of your mind you think, if ABN-AMRO is prepared to recommend it, it must be good.” Blokland went ahead on this basis. He paid an advance of 41,000 guilders into a bank account in the States and set off for Michigan on 16 January of this year. Three weeks later the Midwestern Airways flight training school, for which Vellinga’s American Support Group acted as a broker, went bust. Jan-Frans Blokland and his parents, who put up their house as security, claim that they were given misleading advice. Mr Zwaneveld has admitted that he does business with Otto Vellinga’s American Support Group, but refuses to discuss this particular case.
Midwestern Airways stopped its flight training activities after another five students had each signed a contract and paid 50,000 dollars for advanced flight training. It is probably worth noting that Midwestern Airways is run by Otto Vellinga’s daughter in law, while his son, John Vellinga, is ‘executive vice-president’ of Midwestern Airways and vice-president of the American Support Group.
People have been complaining about Otto Vellinga for years, but few have taken action against him. A student from Bussum said, “Taking action against Otto Vellinga would be an expensive business, not only in terms of money, but also in terms of time. You might win the case, but there is still no guarantee that you would get your money back. And we are all students who still have a long way to go in the world of aviation. Once you get a reputation for being difficult, you’re stuck with it. Vellinga himself also uses this as a threat. He says, ‘I’ll see to it that you never get another job as a pilot.’” Erik, the student who narrowly escaped the jet crash, says, “Douglas Gilliland of AAN, who recruits students via Vellinga, allows students to break the aviation laws, but the students then become an accessory, which makes it difficult for them to approach the aviation authorities.
In 1993, Ronald, a former student, paid Otto Vellinga 24,000 dollars for 300 flying hours on a Beach 1900. Hours that – like so many students – he never got to fly. Eventually he ran out of money and had to get his practical flight experience elsewhere. Which he did. He now works for an accredited flight training institute and is calling for greater government control. There are 25 to 30 flight training institutes in the Netherlands, which range from the KLM Flight Academy, which is recognised by the Civil Aviation Authority in the Netherlands (RLD), to outfits such as Otto Vellinga’s American Support Group. Between them they train several hundred pilots every year. Ronald: “There needs to be an independent body in the Netherlands that assesses and monitors flight training schools and brokers and certifies bona fide companies.”
Mr Leeman in Limmen, whose son was swindled a few years ago, says that things have got out of hand. “Most airlines no longer run their own flight training institutes. An airline will say, you can come and work for us but you must have at least 500 hours of flying experience and you have to get those yourself. This keeps people such as Vellinga in business.”

Nieuwe Revu invited Otto Vellinga to comment. He declined and referred us to his lawyer, Menno Stokvis. He dismisses all of the stories as ‘urban myths’. But he is not willing to refute them. ·

[caption]
This aircraft in which Erik was given flying lessons later crashed.

[quote]
Erik (29): “The theory lessons on the ground normally take a week. My instructor ran through the whole lot in half an hour.”

[xrossbow 737]

Herewith an english translation of that article you uploaded, for all those of you whose dutch is somewhat rusty...

The sky is the limit
Otto Vellinga’s speculation in brokering commercial pilot training

Otto Vellinga (53) is a broker who arranges for students to do their commercial pilot training in the States. Out in the States, the students find the training to be flimsy and rarely get the chance to clock up flying hours. And if they do get the chance, they can find themselves in dangerous aircraft. On top of that it costs an arm and a leg. Back in the Netherlands Otto Vellinga has no qualms about continuing to draw social security benefit.
By Arnold Karskens

Erik (29) who is currently training to be a pilot can count himself lucky. In 1995 a Jet Commander AC 1121 – a twin-engine aircraft belonging to the American Air Network (ANN) – crashed in Guatemala. A week earlier the Dutchman refused to continue flying the aircraft because he didn’t trust the instruments. “I felt it was dangerous. The speedometer and right-hand fuel gauge were not working properly and the fuel tanks were leaking.”
He was flying from Miami to Central America almost daily. A dangerous route often subject to bad weather – as it was on the day of the fatal crash when Erik wasn’t the one flying. His two colleagues didn’t know how much fuel they had on board and tried to land in a nearby airfield. Both died in the attempt. It is now eighteen months since the jet crashed and the American Air Network has not suffered any fatal accidents since, but aircraft have careered off the runway. Erik blames the quality of the training. “The theory lessons on the ground normally take a week. My instructor ran through the whole lot in half an hour.” One of Erik’s fellow students also flew with ANN: “Some of the boys who served as co-pilots had never flown that type of aircraft before and had no idea what they were doing for the first two hundred hours. Another student, Bas Verheul, says that the training with the simulator was discontinued. “When I asked if it was broken, they said, ‘No. The money has run out.’” American Air Network, which provides commercial pilot training, has been struggling with financial problems for years. Erik: “The whole fleet is old and some of the aircraft put people’s lives at risk – as has been proved.”

Erik is one of ten students we spoke to about their pilot training in the States. All of the students were dissatisfied with the training and all had signed a contract with Otto Heinz Vellinga – a Dutch businessman who lives in the little town of Garderen near Barneveld. Vellinga is essentially a broker. He acts as an intermediary between students and aviation schools and flight training courses in the United States. The students describe Otto Heinz Vellinga as an excellent salesman. One of the students said: “He can be very charming, but, when it comes down to it, he is as hard as nails. He has no principles. He will simply say: ‘It’s there in the contract in black and white. It’s not my problem.’”
For a long time Vellinga worked for the Television Licence Fee Department in the Netherlands. After that he ran the Independent Pilot Service in Hoofdorp – an association that advised those who aspired to be pilots. The association was discontinued in 1995 because it no longer offered any obvious advantage as a legal entity. These days he acts as a broker for students who want to train as a pilot. He set up the American Support Group (ASG) for this purpose, which according to its articles of association, is based in New Castle in the American state of Delaware. Vellinga is CEO/President and his wife, Agnes N. Vellinga-Dam, is a director of the American company. The contact address in the Netherlands is Puterweg 46-1 in Garderen, which is Otto Vellinga’s home address. There is a reason why the company is based in the United States. On 1 June 1993 Vellinga started drawing weekly social security benefit of NLG 357.30 under the new Unemployment Insurance Act Every as a resident at the said address, and has continued to do so ever since. His wife also receives benefit from the Industrial Insurance Administration Office in the Netherlands, which in her case amounts to NLG 1773.93 per month. On inquiry, the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) revealed that the couple own two aircraft via ASG-leasing: a single-engine Mooney M-20 (registration number N 9122 V) and a Piper Aztec (registration number N 6326 Y). The latter is a twin-engine aircraft used for multi-engine training. The two aircraft are estimated to be worth approximately a quarter of a million guilders.

ASG President Otto Vellinga places advertisements in newspapers such as De Telegraaf and aviation journals such as Piloot & Vliegtuig to attract students. Those who show an interest are male and female trainee pilots with several flight training certificates who want to gain more practical flight experience.
Vellinga refers those who want to clock up ‘heavy’ jet hours to the American Air Network based in Chesterfield in Missouri, which is presided over by Douglas Gilliland. According to information obtained from the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), over a period of ten years the AAN has failed to comply with the safety regulations on nine occasions. Their offences include failing to respect work and break times, falsifying the logbooks in which the pilots are supposed to note the flying hours they have completed, and flying passenger aircraft without the necessary licence.

Last week Gilliland was in the Netherlands to recruit students together with Otto Vellinga. In a restaurant in Garderen the two outlined the advantages of commercial pilot training in the States to some fifteen potential students. In practice it all boils down to the fact that the students get to serve as co-pilots on regular freight flights – a bit like a co-driver in a truck. But they pay through the nose for the privilege. Vellinga charges each student 45,000 dollars and passes on between 6,000 and 8,000 dollars to the American Air Network. One of the students described it as pure speculation: “As far as they are concerned we are simply cheap labour. We are there on the strength of a student visa, so we are not allowed to earn money. Co-pilots normally earn 250 dollars for a five-hour flight. I earn nothing. In fact I have to pay to be there.”

It is hardly surprising that Vellinga sends his students to the States. The better weather makes for more flying hours. There are fewer flight movements in the Netherlands, which means less chance to clock up ‘heavy hours’. There is also another advantage in sending students to the States – certainly as far as Vellinga is concerned. He can then get them to sign American contracts, which makes it very difficult for them to seek redress through the Dutch courts.
A student who experienced it all first hand said, “When the American Air Network needs personnel Vellinga sends them ten students. One or two of the ten are selected – or are smart enough to get the contract changed before they sign it. They are the ones that get to fly, to the extent that you can call it that at ANN. The other eight are sent from pillar to post. Until they abandon the training. They might spend an hour and a half in the air in six months.”
This was exactly what happened to a student from Bussum. He spent six months in the States, and is now 35,000 dollars worse off – and that’s without counting the travelling and accommodation expenses which added up to 6,000 dollars. He signed the contract on 7 October of last year and was supposed to start training in Miami in December. By the end of March he had completed three thirty minute flights to Guatemala – the same destination that the fated jet was headed for. Again the instructors didn’t bother with the safety regulations. “I already had my licence, but for that particular aircraft you need training and you also need to pass exams. That never happened. The jets are extremely fast and light. A heavy gust of wind will cause them to career off the runway. Things regularly go wrong. I contacted the Federal Aviation Administration and told them ‘I don’t know what’s going on here. They want to put me in a cockpit without any training – that’s illegal.’”
When the student expressed concern to the people at ANN, they made things so difficult for him that he abandoned the training. They kept sending him from one airfield to another. Besides losing a great deal of time, the student also had to cover the travelling expenses and the cost of staying in hotels. “At a certain point you simply run out of money and decide to return to the Netherlands. Then Vellinga says, ‘You abandoned the training.’ The contract states that students who decide not to complete the training are not entitled to a refund.”
Bas Verheul from Utrecht invested 38,250 dollars in the American Support Group and left without gaining any flight training certificates. “I spent 25,000 dollars on the jet training programme, which I never completed, and 9,000 dollars on a type rating certification for a specific aircraft but was never given the training.”
Fellow student Bart travelled out the States at the beginning of December, after paying 100,000 guilders into Vellinga’s account. For that he got to log just 140 hours. “For that amount of money I could have gained all of my flight training certificates at bona fide flight training schools in the same time.

Until recently Vellinga also sent students to the Midwestern Airways flight training school in Escanaba in the state of Michigan, which ran flying courses for beginners who wished to gain their Private Pilot’s Licence. Belgian student Nele Convents (18) signed a contract with Otto Vellinga and paid him 16,800 dollars. She got to spend 26 hours in the air and three months later she returned to Belgium without having gained her licence. “Someone who travelled to the States independently and signed up with any flight training school would pay between 4,000 and 5,000 dollars for the same training,” she says. The instructors at Midwestern Airways flight training school also disregard safety regulations that are considered to be standard practice in the Netherlands. Nele Convents: “There was no VOR (a type of radio navigation system that makes it possible to determine the specific position of an aircraft) and the hydraulic system of the landing gear of one of the single-engine aircraft – a Moony M-20 – didn’t always work. On one occasion the aircraft landed on its body.”
Jan-Frans Blokland (27) from Heerjansdam arrived in Escanaba on 17 January and found the whole set up to be a shambles. He was supposed to undergo a compulsory medical examination but was told that an appointment would be made in due course. There were none of the textbooks needed for the theoretical part of the course. When officials from the Federal Aviation Administration – the agency that sees to it that safety regulations are complied with – visited the airfield, the instructor who taught the theory was out of there like a shot. Blokland: “He was actually an advanced student with 1,300 flying hours under his belt. He wasn’t a qualified instructor.”
Blokland was given his first flying lesson in an aircraft without a radio. “My Norwegian instructor stressed time and time again how dangerous that was.” Jan-Frans Blokland had dreamt of training as a pilot for years. He gave up his job and headed for the branch of the ABN-AMRO bank in Barendrecht where he asked for a loan of 250,000 guilders – enough to cover the cost of gaining a full pilot’s licence at Tulip Air, an accredited flight training school in Amstelveen. The ‘specialist’ at the ABN-AMRO head office – a Mr Zwaneveld – refused to authorise the loan and advised Blokland to train with Otto Vellinga’s American Support Group. He said he would be happy to authorise a loan for such an undertaking. ABN-AMRO had already referred several students to Vellinga and it had been a good move.”
Jan-Frans Blokland: “In the back of your mind you think, if ABN-AMRO is prepared to recommend it, it must be good.” Blokland went ahead on this basis. He paid an advance of 41,000 guilders into a bank account in the States and set off for Michigan on 16 January of this year. Three weeks later the Midwestern Airways flight training school, for which Vellinga’s American Support Group acted as a broker, went bust. Jan-Frans Blokland and his parents, who put up their house as security, claim that they were given misleading advice. Mr Zwaneveld has admitted that he does business with Otto Vellinga’s American Support Group, but refuses to discuss this particular case.
Midwestern Airways stopped its flight training activities after another five students had each signed a contract and paid 50,000 dollars for advanced flight training. It is probably worth noting that Midwestern Airways is run by Otto Vellinga’s daughter in law, while his son, John Vellinga, is ‘executive vice-president’ of Midwestern Airways and vice-president of the American Support Group.
People have been complaining about Otto Vellinga for years, but few have taken action against him. A student from Bussum said, “Taking action against Otto Vellinga would be an expensive business, not only in terms of money, but also in terms of time. You might win the case, but there is still no guarantee that you would get your money back. And we are all students who still have a long way to go in the world of aviation. Once you get a reputation for being difficult, you’re stuck with it. Vellinga himself also uses this as a threat. He says, ‘I’ll see to it that you never get another job as a pilot.’” Erik, the student who narrowly escaped the jet crash, says, “Douglas Gilliland of AAN, who recruits students via Vellinga, allows students to break the aviation laws, but the students then become an accessory, which makes it difficult for them to approach the aviation authorities.
In 1993, Ronald, a former student, paid Otto Vellinga 24,000 dollars for 300 flying hours on a Beach 1900. Hours that – like so many students – he never got to fly. Eventually he ran out of money and had to get his practical flight experience elsewhere. Which he did. He now works for an accredited flight training institute and is calling for greater government control. There are 25 to 30 flight training institutes in the Netherlands, which range from the KLM Flight Academy, which is recognised by the Civil Aviation Authority in the Netherlands (RLD), to outfits such as Otto Vellinga’s American Support Group. Between them they train several hundred pilots every year. Ronald: “There needs to be an independent body in the Netherlands that assesses and monitors flight training schools and brokers and certifies bona fide companies.”
Mr Leeman in Limmen, whose son was swindled a few years ago, says that things have got out of hand. “Most airlines no longer run their own flight training institutes. An airline will say, you can come and work for us but you must have at least 500 hours of flying experience and you have to get those yourself. This keeps people such as Vellinga in business.”

Nieuwe Revu invited Otto Vellinga to comment. He declined and referred us to his lawyer, Menno Stokvis. He dismisses all of the stories as ‘urban myths’. But he is not willing to refute them. ·

[caption]
This aircraft in which Erik was given flying lessons later crashed.

[quote]
Erik (29): “The theory lessons on the ground normally take a week. My instructor ran through the whole lot in half an hour.”