Buying and owning a lightie - costs involved?

[Whizzwheel]

I'm sure this one has been asked a bunch of times, but, let's just say that I was looking to buy a small 4 seat bug-smasher, what would it cost me to own?

[Shitsu_Tonka]

You are right - it has been asked before, and it's one of those how long is a piece of string questions.

You need to nail down the following variable first before asking the question:

Type - acquisition cost
Projected Hours each year.
Use of aircraft - online or private? VFR or IFR? This will also affect:
Insurance (use of acft / experience level)
Prop/Eng HTR?
Hangared? Where?

The more hours the cheapr per hour cost to absorb the biggies - maintenance and allowance for prop/engine overhaul, and insurance. Fuel is not as big a cost as you thought (unless you are getting a BIG thirsty single)

[J430]

Whiz,

Mate if you are looking at a private plane with very low cost of ownership but a good performer you have to go to the experimental category, and the best bang for buck is the Jabiru J400/430. Bet you can't guess why I say that.

If you PM me I can get you more details of all my research on the main contenders when I did a very thorough research of costs etc.

The reality is the diference is huge. Payload and speed and cost V say a C172 or Cherokee/Warrior. No Contest.

However if you want a certifed a/c for rental to a flight school or charter work.......gotta go the old way. Or find $400-500K and buy a Cirrus. Of the new generation machines these are the pick!

Cheers

J:ok:

[barney01]

Want to know why aeroplanes are so expensive to hire? Go buy one and run it for a few years - scary experience, but nice to fly without staring at the VDO when you are number three in line to takeoff waiting for two to land first.

Do not overlook buying a two seat RAA type - I very rarely fly with more than two on board. The odd time I do I can hire a bigger plane.

[5miles]

what would it cost me to own?

Not too much, one arm, one leg, and the shirt off your back.

Really, if you have to ask...then you can't afford it.
I've done the sums for a number of similar propositions, and even cross hired with guarenteed hours (good luck with that), you'll be lucky to break even.

And that's not even allowing for unexpected costs, eg. early prop replacement, defaulting debtors, new ADs, etc.

If however it's just for personal use, rather than an investment, then J430s advise is fairly prudent.

[Woomera]

Whizz. From one who has "been there, done that" (more often than I care to think about) I now find when I get the urge to acquire an aircraft, I take a Bex with hot Milo and a long lie down.

Regardless of what scheme you may have in mind to mitigate your real costs - cross hire to clubs and/or flying schools - if you can't afford to write off/lose/burn/throw away $20,000 to $30,000 per annum, don't even think of buying an aircraft. Any aircraft!

My two cents worth!

Sunny Woomera

[AEIO-540]

Generally as a good old rough rule of thumb to work by is that it is close to 3 times the cost of fuel per hour.

[Scion]

Hey Woomera!

Gentle encouragement is what the laddie needs , optimism, too much negativity as Donald Sutherland says in "Kelly's Heros".

Gosh that dates me!

[Chimbu chuckles]

Remarkable accurate figure that Woomera...Whizz as an aircraft owner I can vouch for the 20-30k/annum figure. It will encompass most of the 'lighty' spectrum.

It really is more 'informing' to think of the annual costs as opposed to an hourly cost...think about what an annual inspection, insurance, hangarage will cost and that + DOCs is what the first hour each year costs you...each hour after that is merely DOCs. It is too easy to gloss over the real costs when you only think about an hourly figure.

The breakdown on buying an aeroplane.

Pre purchase Inspections.

The pre purchase inspection that you MUST not skimp on should be at LEAST the equivalent of an annual inspection.

Annual Inspections

Any quote from a LAME double. If you're buying a real old aeroplane tripple the first one and then double the subsequent ones. This minimises but does not negate 'sticker shock'. The reason I say tripple the first one is that almost invariably the first annual is a ball tearer...because the previous owner has usually avoided spending money as much as humanly possible in the last year or so they have owned the aircraft...at least. A REALLY GOOD pre purchase inspection might mitigate this to some extent but not completely.

Insurance.

Fixed undercarriage is a LOT cheaper to insure. 4 seats is cheaper than 6. Forget a twin unless you have money to burn and lots of twin time.

Hangarage.

Will cost anywhere between $200/mth and $350...EASILY!. Hangarage is actually getting so expensive that if you live a long way from the sea then, hail storms aside, hangarage is a marginally worthwhile expense. Factor $200-$250/MTH over 10 years and it exceeds the cost of a paint job and new interior!

If you are serious about buying an aircraft you will probably have a specific type in mind..or two.

Contact the type specific owners club and ask them to put you in contact with;

a/. Owners of the same types and

b/. An engineer who specialises or is extrememly knowledgeable about the specific type.

Go into google and type in Aviation Consumer and subscribe to it...it is a gold mine of good info on any type you could possibly be interested in and each aircraft type article will have owner comments at the end. I cannot recommend that website enough as a source for no BS facts.

Aeroplanes are the easiest thing in the world to buy and the most difficult thing to sell...make sure you buy what you really want rather than dipping your toe in the water thinking you can sell and upgrade later.

It is a BUYERS market.

Be aware that any money you spend after purchase to upgrade the aircraft will only return about 50-60% in increased value if you try and sell the aircraft reasonably soon thereafter. I think that is dumb but I don't get a say.

[Woomera]

what would it cost me to own

Well for an hourly rate whatever the local aero club charges per hour for the type is a good start, then work you way upwards from there.:{

Chuckles has a good handle and my Woomera Colleagues $20-30k pa out the door for the privilege isn't light on either.:ok:

Ask anyone who owns a $60,000-$100,000 boat how much it costs to run and maintain against the number of hours fishing, same old same old.:O

You can either afford to indulge you hobby or you cannot, if you cant join a club or syndicate.:ok:

'Nother Woomera who's also been there done that.

[flywatcher]

Whizzwheel, if you PM me I can give you some type specific figures.

[Dry_Twotter]

Does anyone know the rough costs involved in owning and running an Aviat husky. Me and the old fella are looking into either one of these, or maybe a cub, just for a weekend basher.
Cheers

[ballsdeep]

The way to go is an aircraft registered in the RAA or LSA category. They are a lot cheaper to run in every aspect compared to the GA equivalent, the regs are more relaxed and there are plenty of well performing machines to choose from. They are the way to go for recreational flying. The days of the heavy, inefficient, expensive, gas-guzzlers are numbered.

[Chimbu chuckles]

DT if you are thinking Piper Cub, Aviat Husky etc you probably are better off looking at RA aircraft like the Tecnam...you'll pay about the same capital cost but have a new aircraft which will be cheaper to run in the medium term.

[Whizzwheel]

Arrgh...I shouldn't have asked... Thanks for the quick responses - will continue with the quiet optimism.

[desmotronic]

Hey Wiz, forget about a bugsmasher, how about i go you halves in one of these...:}


http://www.eclipseaviation.com/eclipse_500/

[gassed budgie]

After reading some of the above posts, it's a wonder there's anyone left out there that owns an aeroplane at all. It cost me a bit over $9500 to operate the 172 over the last 12 months. That includes fuel, insurance, hangarage and the anual inspection. There were some other incidentals such as landing fees, nav charges etc. (and some oil, forgot about that) that would have come to something less than $300.
I reckon that's pretty good. Certainly nowhere near the $20,000 to $30,000 suggested above. The hourly operating cost? Who cares. When the bills come in, you pay'em. I don't get hung up on how much it costs me to operate an hour. Couldn't care less.
You'll see people going over all sorts figures with all sorts of permutations and combinations. At the end of it all they'll say "I simply can't justify spending that much an hour to operate the aircraft". What they really meant was, they couldn't afford it in the first place. If you can't afford it, don't go there. Dollars held in reserve for the engine and prop? Yer, right. I simply wouldn't be disciplined enough to leave it alone. When the engines due, it's due. With a little bit of forward planning, I'll come up with the dollars then.

The reality is the difference is huge. Payload and speed and cost V say a C172 or Cherokee/Warrior. No Contest.

Correct. I'll take the 172 over a Jabiru or Technam any day. The 172 will do stuff that a Jabiru or Technam simply can't. It needs more horsepower to do that, which means it'll have a higher fuel burn. I'm prepared to accept that. I saw some prices recently for Technam's and they were in the region of $120,000 to $150,000. I'm not prepared to pay that amount of money to be at the same place that Cessna and Piper were at 60 years ago. You can get a very nice 172 for a $100,000 or less. The $50,000 you've got left over will buy a lot of maintenance and a lot of fuel.
Aircraft ownership can be very rewarding, satisfying and yes, at times very frustrating. It has always been expensive and always will be. But the picture might not be quite so horrendous as some people paint it.
Pick your market, do your homework, look for the lowest TT aircraft that you can afford and make sure, without fail, that you get a comprehensive pre-purchase inspection done by a reputable LAME (yes, there are some out there if you know where to look). If the aircraft doesn't come up to scratch and the owner won't come to the party over any defects, be prepared to walk away from the deal. You might feel as though you've done your dough on the pre-purchase, but you could save yourself thousands in the long run. Have fun.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It cost me a bit over $9500 to operate the 172 over the last 12 months. That includes fuel, insurance, hangarage and the anual inspection.

How much higher would that figure be if you added provisions for: possible top overhaul, possible cylinder replacement, engine overhaul, prop overhaul, instrument and avionics overhaul, repaint each five years or so, ditto internal refurbishment etc etc etc.

Or do you propose to run our engine and prop hours and try to sell it with chalky paint and scruffy interior - and wonder why you can't get the same money for it as you paid for it?

As a matter of interest, how many flying hours did you do for your $9,500 in costs?

Sunny Woomera

[Chimbu chuckles]

Hey whizz what kind of aeroplane do you have in mind?

The spectrum is so broad that your question is impossible to answer....everything from gb's 172 to my Bonanza.

In fact those two probably neatly bookend the 'lighty' spectrum.

I didn't mean my post to put you off...far from it in fact...just to give you an idea where to start looking for the answers you seem to want.

BTW gb I completely agree with you...nice to see someone who appreciates the classics:ok:

[Avgas172]

Bought my venerable old '67 172 in 2001, paid 40500 with 6000tt and 1400hrs to run on continental 0300 engine and approx 400 tr on prop. 100's average around 4000 with new bits each time (replaced flap tracks on first annual then elevator/rudder cables on 3rd) I try to replace some ageing parts each 100 with the next mission being aileron cables in Sept's annual. Only unexpected blow out so far has been a new starter for the old donk. Like some others I will worry about the engine when it expires (might need a diesel by then) :rolleyes: .
So far cross hire to others has been of mimimal benefit. Insurance (QBE) has been around 2500pa and the only other thing I would like is a new paint job sometime soon .... flew the old girl up to YBTL for the winter and will take her back to central West NSW in OCT .... (cant do that with a hire hack ) so far I'm still $100000 ahead of the Tec/Jab etc etc and cant see any big change anytime soon, my annual use is around 60 + hours .... my 2c's worth but each to their own. :E

[Squawk7700]

Bought my RAA Gazelle in 2002 for $28k. Did 500 hours and spent $0 on it in parts, bar oil and filters; maintainted it myself under RA-Aus regs. Sold it 2 years later for $45k. Built a 4 seat Jabiru for $76k. Out of pocket $59k. Have done 400 hours in 2 years.

Cost to hire, $120,000 over 4 years for those hours.
Cost to run, maintain & park (wet):
Gazelle - $12k.
Jab - $13k.
Approximate cost per hour $30 including engine allowance.

Sell now for $90k approx (could probably do better)

Profit when sold + $4000.

Therefore for every hour of flying I made $4.40.

This didn't include driving to the airport, maps, headsets and airways charges.

I hear you say, "but you built the aircraft, factor that in." Ok I will:

Add $18,000.

Therefore, hourly cost of owning and running = $15.50.

:)

[bushy]

There is some gold out there. Australia was flooded with new GA aircraft two or three decades ago, and most of these aircraft are still here. Some are in good shape and some are not. Those that have been properly looked after are still very good. Engineers can assess their condition, but too many have learned to accept low standards, and cost pressures over the years have produced some rattly machines. When a LAME signs an MR, that means he considers the aircraft will be safe to fly for another year, or another 100 hours. It does not mean it is perfect.
However, there are many aircraft out there that have only flown two or three thousand hours, maybe five. There are quite a few aircraft out there that have flown over 20,000 hours, and still going. I read recently that the first C172 that was ever built is still flying in the US. When I went to visit the Pacific aviation factory in NZ they told me that the first Fletcher AG plane they ever built (in the sixties) was still flying, doing survey flying, with about 25,000 hours. I think it has a turbine engine now.
Most GA aircraft in Australia have realistic life of about 10,000 hours, with routine maintenance if looked after properly, and about double that if you do some structural work when it is needed. Some can go much further.
If you are one of those who have to have the flashest car in the carpark, and would not be seen dead in last years model, then maybe these are not for you. But a 30 year old metal aircraft in good condition that's flown 20% of it's useful life, is about as old as our military aircraft, and flown a fraction of the hours that the Qantas aircraft have, is pretty good value. If you get a good one.

[2dotsright]

Having just sold my lovely little 4 seater recently, after having it for around 12 months, I gotta say that as an economic proposition it is a disaster, but as an old mate said once, you gotta have one at least once. I only did about 10 or 15 hours in a year so divide that into the insurance and all the rest of the maintenance cost etc, it works out at about $4-500 an hour for a Cherokee.... Aaaaahhhhhh!!
However, if I didn't own that plane I wouldn't have had that nice time flying around as I wouldn't have gone out and hired one so it was worth it. Remember, some people pay lots to join golf clubs etc so you can't put a price on it. Only live once so if you wanna do it then 'Just do it" Happy Flying

[J430]

Mr Budgie says

I'll take the 172 over a Jabiru or Technam any day. The 172 will do stuff that a Jabiru or Technam simply can't. It needs more horsepower to do that, which means it'll have a higher fuel burn.

Now first recall I said about horses for corses, and experimental cat. may be the go...well lets get serious. And i am sure Squawk will back me here. the Tecnam is lovely and more expensive than the Jab, but its slower and is 2 seat and costs more than my Jab J430, which is almost IFR...it is not and will not, but hey, its pretty damn sexy. So lets take the slower less capable Tecnam out now.

Back to J430 V C172/Warrior. Speed 10-15knots more with 20LPH V 35LPH burn. Climb rate with identical load (jab will take more if identical fuel range on board)....mate the Jab will dissapear before your eyes and by 3500 feet you will have lost them completely. Speed and climb are way better. Same useful load, in fact we can caryy more, further faster for less fuel.

Ok we are not a type certified plane.

next is in flight comfort....more room...yes MORE, and no yoke, throttle and mixture etc to get in the road of maps being folded, ERSA being opened or even a drink of water being passed around. Comfort in my a/c is way better.

Is the C172 a bad plane....NO way, I loved it, but I tell you for sure, I love owning the J430 a whole heap more. And its nice to fly. And its got nice colour TV's instead of 38 year old technology that keeps costing a fortune to fix. How do I know..............I do, but ask around, its true.

Would I fly either, yes I have, but really for the purpose of private VFR flight for work or pleasure at around $38 to $40 max per hour plus fixed costs of hangar and insurance....say $70-$80 Per Hour if you do fly it a bit....and when its so much cheaper you will fly it more, its hard to justify double that or more that many are paying. If you want a C172...rent it from the aeroclub.

Cheers and just enjoy whatever you are blessed with being able to fly. Hang the cost!!!!:ok:

J:ok:

[Shitsu_Tonka]

Just reviewing my spreadsheet for the year.

150* hrs per year ( 2 seat 110 KIAS RAA Aircraft) [EDIT: *Note: these were the actualhours flown for the year, all private]

Fixed (Hangar, Insurance) = $6380 p/a or $43/hr

Hourly Costs (Dry)] = $22/hr or $3300 p/a
[Provision for 50/100 hourly]
[Provision for COM/NAVAID Service]
[Provision for Refurbishment]
[Provision for Spares]
[Provision for Engine Overhaul]

Hourly Costs (Fuel) = $28.50/hr or $4275 p/a

So, annualised hourly rate is abour $93/hr or total of about $14,000 p/a.

Pretty close to some of the figures in the above posts.

By the way if you think fuel burn is a big component, if you DOUBLE the fuel cost on this basis, the hourly rate only goes up by 30%!

Applying this to a 30 year old PA28, I came up with the following figures,

150 hrs per year ( 4 seat 105 KIAS PA28 Aircraft)

Fixed (Hangar, Insurance) = $4075 p/a or $27/hr

Hourly Costs (Dry)] = $52/hr
[Provision for 50/100 hourly]
[Provision for COM/NAVAID Service]
[Provision for Refurbishment]
[Provision for Spares]
[Provision for Engine Overhaul]

Hourly Costs (Fuel) = $53/hr

So, annualised hourly rate is abour $132/hr or total of about $19,800 p/a.

I have got some really good data on R22 Helicopters too......droool (uh-oh!)

[185skywagon]

I don't want to put a downer on any of this but, I think you ought to work your figures out on 50-100 hours per year, instead of 150. most private owners that i know are flat out making even 50 hours per year.
that will make your fixed cost cost seem worse when translated into an hourly rate, or at least, much more conservative.
A rough snapshot of expenses follow for a working(500 hours year) cessna (300hp), based at a country Field, hangared at no cost.

admin-$1500
avionics upgrades-$660
Insurance-$8000
landing fees-$700
minor plant-$700
repairs airframe, engine, avionics and 100 hourlies-$25000
Fuel and Oil-$40000. (edited)
engine and Prop provisions-$20000

Is this any help??

[VH-XXX]

Crickey you lot are talking some massively high figures for GA!!!

No wonder the RA-Aus fraternity is expanding and quickly heading for over 6,000 members and looking to take over the 750kg mark.

My 1,000 + hours of private flying in several years haven't even come close to some of the figures posted here.

I think you'll find that ownership in RA-Aus is far more economical than for GA hence the ever increasing popularity. $$$thousands of hours for 100 hourlies is totally unheard of in RA.

I think you'll also find that many if not most of the RA aircraft are self insured, thus bringing costs down significantly. RA-Aus membership carries it's own liability for external 3rd parties as part of the $145 cost.

Hopefully the LSA category will open the doors a little more for those of you who are GA operators and you'll realise the benefits of flying light.

XXX

[Avgas172]

I work full time for around 120K pa thats 10 K per month, if I spent the time required to build anything it would add at least that figure per month (plus tooling up for the project) in lost wages to pay for it. That aside I would have as much interest in building an aircraft as I have in wrestling polar bears. As before not everyone is in the same circumstances.

[FL_RoofTop]

$120k!! I pay THAT much in Tax each year!

[Atlas Shrugged]

$120k!! I pay THAT much in Tax each year!

Yeah, I crap bigger than that!

;)

[VH-XXX]

Yeah, but my daddie's d*ck is bigger than your daddie's d*ck, so there!

[Shitsu_Tonka]

Did I miss something? What does the 120K salary have to do with anything?

[Oh that's super!]

LOL @ the turn of this thread!!

P.S. 120k rupees, Pounds, Ringgits, dollars or yen?

[J430]

Now this makes it all more economical, GA RAA or whatever, find a really good aircraft partner. Not a syndicate of 3-12, just one other.

The costs for my plastic plane are based on say 75hrs/yr single owner $98/hr all up. However, when the fixed costs are split 50/50 and the same 75 hours are applied the cost is $68.83......as of todays fuel/oil/overhaul allowance etc. Yes that includes evrything including the TBO time which many do not save up for. And it leaves a bit of change in the kitty for unexpected repairs.

No matter what you want to fly, look at it this way. We never have a conflict over times of use, so pick the right person and fly for less.:D

Cheers
J:ok:

[Avgas172]

The amount of salary has only a significance when calculating how long you spend at home to be able to build an aircraft or do your own plumbing for that matter .... if you stay at home enough you have all the time in the world.
Usually find that lower to no salary group are either retired or home every night (with exception of IT people who seem to be able to make plenty and stay at home) this then will give them the TIME to do it. Thus if I was interested in building my own Jab/Tec etc (refer polar bears) I would have to give up a large portion of that income which then (fairly) would have to be added to the building cost.:ugh: This also explains why some manage to do relatively small hours flying time each year.
cheers

[gassed budgie]

Hello Sunny W

As a matter of interest, how many flying hours did you do for your $9,500 in costs?

78.2 hrs to be precise.


How much higher would that figure be if you added provisions for: possible top overhaul, possible cylinder replacement, engine overhaul, prop overhaul, instrument and avionics overhaul, repaint each five years or so, ditto internal refurbishment etc etc etc.


Lots I'd reckon. Funds weren't put aside for any of the above.


repaint each five years or so


Your kidding me aren't you? Why on earth would you want to do that?


Or do you propose to run our engine and prop hours and try to sell it with chalky paint and scruffy interior - and wonder why you can't get the same money for it as you paid for it?


The aircraft is the best preserved and best looking 172N I've seen in the last 5 years. It presents as new. Would I get back what I paid for it? In the last two years the market has moved back about 15 to 20%. That low time 182R that you would have payed $200k's for two years ago can be picked up for around $160 to $165k's today (there are some exceptions to this, good low time late 210's for example). So to answer your question, no. I'm still having fun though!

[Ratshit]

BE35 cost me $56,800 for about 200 hr flying over last 12 months.