The Irish invite US pilots to work in Europe... [Archive]

captjns

7th Jul 2006, 14:17

Anyone with a BAe 146/AVRO RJ rating has probably had a phone call by now, from some agency or other recruiting for Cityjet. This due to Cityjet acquiring 17 or so RJs from Mesaba in the USA.

Apparently the Irish CAA has now decided that it is perfectly OK to allow the Mesaba crews to follow their aircraft to Ireland and fly around Europe, under what is little more than a flag of convenience.

Naturally, Irish (or European) pilots would never be allowed reciprocal rights.

I see this as a dangerous precedent, particularly as the US is so agressively protectionist.

Discuss... :}

Check your history. Because the cost of training in Europe was more expensive in Europe, pilots came to the US for advance pilot... and they still do. Pilots obtain their JAA and FAA certificates under parallel courses without duplicative check rides for each rating.

In the past and currently, pilots from all over Europe come to Florida to train with airline sponsored flight schools Gulfstream Academy, Comair Academy, and Flight Safety. Pilots train in Arizona with Mesa Flight School. After training these pilots have secured with US regional carriers such as American Eagle, Continental Express, Mesa Airlines, ASA… to name a few. Some have gone onto the majors such as American, Continental, and United… again to name a few.

While European pilots were displacing US pilots from said jobs, it was next to impossible for a US pilot to get a job in Europe.

Besides, why would you want to get a job flying the same equipment for half the pay?

So in the long run fair is fair… wouldn’t you agree?

flat-tire

7th Jul 2006, 14:20

Most of the Mesaba crews that I know would not take up that offer. They don't want to move from Minnesota, no place to ride snowmobile in Ireland.:) There are too many jobs in the US for regional pilots. Soon to be shortage. Have a look on climbto350.com. Lots of jobs from corporate to float planes. Someday the US airlines will have to give out work permits just to find pilots. They already employ foreign cabin crew.

Also, why would someone in Europe want to fly in the US for $1800 a month (75 hours pm). Maybe you fancy the 8 sector days.

captjns

7th Jul 2006, 14:30

Also, why would someone in Europe want to fly in the US for $1800 a month (75 hours pm). Maybe you fancy the 8 sector days.

Hey... let's not forget the value meals at McDonalds, Taco Bell, KFC, and Burger King.:ok:

MOR

7th Jul 2006, 14:33

captjns

7th Jul 2006, 15:01

captjnsThere might have been some temporary, very limited placements from the training schools, but nothing more than that. In any event, those pilots are not flying on validated Euro licences, they will all hold FAA licences.

The same equipment for half the pay beats no equipment for no pay! Not likely to be true, though - If flat tire is correct, the pay is a hell of a lot better in Europe.

According to Direct Personnel, they have quite a few US applicants wanting to go to Ireland.

Nothing fair about it.

As I pointed out in my previous post, pay in Europe is far better than in the US at this point.

What you believe or don't is not important... but facts are facts.

Yes... you do need a "Green Card" to work in the US. But again, pilots who came to the US in the '80s and '90s from Europe were able to get a green card, learn how to fly at much cheaper prices, and yes also get jobs with carriers. I can tell you that there are number of pilots from Europe flying for American Eagle, living in Puerto Rico. There are a number of pilots from the Scandinavian countries who attended Gulfstream Academy who flew for Continental Exress and went on to Continental Airlines.

Obtaining an FAA certificate on conversion is far easier than the other way.

Hey what's the big deal anyway? There are more jobs in Europe than their are pilots. Any money coming out of your pocket? Are you being denied employment over a Yank? If you meet the minimums and if not already employed, you should be able to get a job. And if and when the tides should turn again when there is a pilot shortage in the US, maybe you can come on over... if you want.

MOR

7th Jul 2006, 15:29

OK well you can have your "facts" and I'll have mine. You haven't offered any evidence to support your 'facts", so let's call then what they really are - supposition. How do you know that these pilots didn't have relatives in the US who enabled them to get citizenship? That is certainly highly likely amongst Scandinavians.

I'm not being disadvantaged - you wouldn't catch me flying for Cityjet - but I have a good friend who has been told that he is only going to get a job once all the Americans have been employed. A deal has clearly been done.

flat-tire

7th Jul 2006, 15:50

Sounds like Mesaba has some good negotiators. Maybe someone should put a stop to the DEALS.

captjns

7th Jul 2006, 15:52

I'm not being disadvantaged - you wouldn't catch me flying for Cityjet - but I have a good friend who has been told that he is only going to get a job once all the Americans have been employed. A deal has clearly been done.

Not to doubt the validity of your friend's statement, but I along with others on this forum would like to know within Cityjet would make that exact statement. I can't believe for the life of me that anyone let alone a carrier within the EU would not hire a local, sort to say, rather than a non EU resident. I know that there is the US equivalent to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission in Ireland that would like to get their hands on the individual that made that declaration.

bafanguy

7th Jul 2006, 17:00

Apparently the Irish CAA has now decided that it is perfectly OK to allow the Mesaba crews to follow their aircraft to Ireland and fly around Europe, under what is little more than a flag of convenience.

MOR,
Why is the Irish CAA doing this...and what do you suggest as an alternative ?

MOR

7th Jul 2006, 17:36

Well I gather we should really call them the IAA... :rolleyes:

Simple, really. There aren't a lot of 146/RJ drivers around in the first place, and even fewer who are current within the last 3-6 months, which is what Cityjet have required for at least the last year or so. Cityjet clearly believe that non-current 146/RJ pilots pose a training risk, so they would rather have nice, current Americans. Once that resource dries up, they may well start taking the un-current guys, in fact they will probably end up training a whole bunch from scratch. There simply aren't that many rated people around any more, most have long since moved to the 737 or A320 or are quite happy to stay where they are, and get trained on new equipment as more 146s are retired.

like to know within Cityjet would make that exact statement

It didn't come from Cityjet, it came from (more than one) agency. However it is obvious that Cityjet/Sigmar have made an approach to the government to get this done, and I would imagine an exception was made as a result of a really dark picture being drawn by Cityjet. They are going to have problems crewing all those aircraft, irrespective of where the crews come from.

Most Equal Opportunity legislation allows for the case where a company can show that there are no suitably qualified locals who can do the job. In this case, it would be relatively easy to demonstrate that there weren't sufficient qualified and current pilots in IRELAND to fill the seats, but I doubt they would have to make their case for the whole of Europe.

The alternative would be to invest in a little extra training for those who are rated but not current, and who are EU citizens. The upside is that they are not as likely to get sick of CDG or DUB and want to go home.

Dualbleed

7th Jul 2006, 18:45

The people I know who has gotten a job in the majors and other companies in the US has either married or won the green card lottery. The marry thing also work for a US citizen to work in the EU.

susoal

7th Jul 2006, 23:12

captjns
I don't believe for a minute that there are any Europeans flying for the US majors (or the regionals for that matter) who are not now US citizens or at least Green Card holders. Any American who came to Europe and gained EU citizenship would be in the same position. There might have been some temporary, very limited placements from the training schools, but nothing more than that. In any event, those pilots are not flying on validated Euro licences, they will all hold FAA licences.
The same equipment for half the pay beats no equipment for no pay! Not likely to be true, though - If flat tire is correct, the pay is a hell of a lot better in Europe.
According to Direct Personnel, they have quite a few US applicants wanting to go to Ireland.
Nothing fair about it.

You are absolutely right, UNLESS you are a US citizen or have a Green Card, there is NO WAY any airline in the USA will employ you.
I flew there for almost 11 years (green card holder) and I can tell you they wont hire you. As per pay, consider yourselves like. Pay as been going down since the aftermath of 9/11, (personally I took a 30% pay cut in ´01), and there are thousands of pilots without a job...
Grass is always greener on the other side......I think not.

captjns

8th Jul 2006, 00:15

Well I gather we should really call them the IAA... :rolleyes:

What's with the anti-American slant dude? :=

Simple, really. There aren't a lot of 146/RJ drivers around in the first place, and even fewer who are current within the last 3-6 months, which is what Cityjet have required for at least the last year or so.

There are a bunch of 146's flying around Europe. Why don't these pilots want to fly for Cityjet? By the way... are you current and qualified on the 146? If not then what's your beef?

Cityjet clearly believe that non-current 146/RJ pilots pose a training risk, so they would rather have nice, current Americans. Once that resource dries up, they may well start taking the un-current guys, in fact they will probably end up training a whole bunch from scratch.

Is this your opinion or fact? If so then show us the facts and save us the suppositions. Again I ask... how does this effect you if you are currently employed with another carrier... or you are not typed on the 146?

There simply aren't that many rated people around any more, most have long since moved to the 737 or A320 or are quite happy to stay where they are, and get trained on new equipment as more 146s are retired.

So again... I ask why do you have a problem of expats (Americans especially) coming over to fly the 146 or any other aircraft for that matter? Is it taking food out of the mouth of you, your wife, if you are married, or children, if you have children?

It didn't come from Cityjet, it came from (more than one) agency. However it is obvious that Cityjet/Sigmar have made an approach to the government to get this done, and I would imagine an exception was made as a result of a really dark picture being drawn by Cityjet. They are going to have problems crewing all those aircraft, irrespective of where the crews come from.

So you don't have a direct account of the facts or statements? You are relying on statements from individuals who are not part or management. All this is nothing but hear-say.

Most Equal Opportunity legislation allows for the case where a company can show that there are no suitably qualified locals who can do the job. In this case, it would be relatively easy to demonstrate that there weren't sufficient qualified and current pilots in IRELAND to fill the seats, but I doubt they would have to make their case for the whole of Europe.

So... how does the effect you... if you are not typed on the 146?

The alternative would be to invest in a little extra training for those who are rated but not current, and who are EU citizens. The upside is that they are not as likely to get sick of CDG or DUB and want to go home.

Who are you to say that non EU individuals would get sick of CDG or DUB? They are both great places... great people, and pubs. What more can one ask for MOR?

MOR

8th Jul 2006, 01:27

Well I gather we should really call them the IAA...

What's with the anti-American slant dude?

How do you get "anti-American" from that? In any case, this has nothing to do with Americans, it's to do with the Irish.

Why don't these pilots want to fly for Cityjet?

Terms and conditions, mainly.

s this your opinion or fact?

Fact. I got it directly from a Cityjet exec when I asked last year.

Again I ask... how does this effect you if you are currently employed with another carrier... or you are not typed on the 146?

None of this has anything to do with people currently employed elsewhere, it is to do with those who are NOT employed but ARE type-rated, but are not current.

So again... I ask why do you have a problem of expats (Americans especially) coming over to fly the 146 or any other aircraft for that matter? Is it taking food out of the mouth of you, your wife, if you are married, or children, if you have children?

Geez... RTFQ! The problem is that Americans WILL be taking food out of the mouths of the people described above. Quite apart from the principle.

So you don't have a direct account of the facts or statements? You are relying on statements from individuals who are not part or management. All this is nothing but hear-say.

I have spoken directly to the agencies, who are simply regurgitating what they have been told by their client. You don't have to be "management" to be able to read a memo - although these people are management-level. Not good enough for you?

So... how does the effect you... if you are not typed on the 146?

I am, but that isn't the point. The point is that Cityjet are engineering a position that allows them to hire cheap US labour on the basis of a faulty picture of the pool of available pilots. I said all this already.

Who are you to say that non EU individuals would get sick of CDG or DUB? They are both great places... great people, and pubs. What more can one ask for MOR?

In the 20 years I have been involved in airline flying, I must have trained 40 or 50 foreign nationals for pilot positions in airlines I have worked for.
Very few of them lasted a year before they went home (mostly Canadians).

captjns

8th Jul 2006, 08:39

How do you get "anti-American" from that? In any case, this has nothing to do with Americans, it's to do with the Irish.

From your original posting... I guess.

Apparently the Irish CAA has now decided that it is perfectly OK to allow the Mesaba crews to follow their aircraft to Ireland and fly around Europe, under what is little more than a flag of convenience.

Naturally, Irish (or European) pilots would never be allowed reciprocal rights. I see this as a dangerous precedent, particularly as the US is so agressively protectionist.

I have spoken directly to the agencies, who are simply regurgitating what they have been told by their client. You don't have to be "management" to be able to read a memo - although these people are management-level. Not good enough for you?

No! It's hear say. Show us the so-called memo on the company's letterhead that supports your claim.

I am, but that isn't the point. The point is that Cityjet are engineering a position that allows them to hire cheap US labour on the basis of a faulty picture of the pool of available pilots. I said all this already.

I can tell you US pilots have taken up the arse once too many times when it comes to pay and benefits. I am here to tell you they ain't coming over here unless the pay is adequate and there is a QOL.

If you are typed and current on the 146 as a TRE and SFI, you may wish to donate some of your time to get your buds recurrent and requalified on the 146. Discuss the issue with a training facility that has a 146 regarding hourly prices for simulators. See if the IAA would be agreeable to such a plan. From what I understand they are resonable chaps.

In the 20 years I have been involved in airline flying, I must have trained 40 or 50 foreign nationals for pilot positions in airlines I have worked for. Very few of them lasted a year before they went home (mostly Canadians).

You have to agree that expat employment is not for every individual. Lots have changed in the 30 years I have been involved with international flying, and international basings too.

Up & Away

8th Jul 2006, 11:09

Nowthen
Captain BAe146 over 2000 hrs command but last flight Jun 05!!
Just had the 'no thank you' with 'no reason' from Sigmar.
great excuse to welcome the Americans and get one over on the Brits!!
yes getting cynical in my old age

MOR

8th Jul 2006, 11:55

From your original posting... I guess.

America IS aggressively protectionist - that is a fact. Particularly when it comes to immigration (unless you are Mexican of course). However, my beef was never with the Americans, it's with the Irish.

No! It's hear say. Show us the so-called memo on the company's letterhead that supports your claim.

Well, if you want to be silly...

Many of us know whats going on, read the post above. If you want to stick your head in the sand, go right ahead.

If you are typed and current on the 146 as a TRE and SFI, you may wish to donate some of your time to get your buds recurrent and requalified on the 146. Discuss the issue with a training facility that has a 146 regarding hourly prices for simulators. See if the IAA would be agreeable to such a plan. From what I understand they are resonable chaps.

You clearly know nothing about the industry over here. That would never work with any of the sims I have visited, they have their own instructional staff and they ain't cheap. Secondly, a TRE qualification needs to be supported by an employer to be valid - I couldn't sign off a LPC/OPC even if I wanted to. It's irrelevant anyway, as the company would just have to do it again when they employed the pilot. And in any case, Cityjet aren't looking for a quick session in the sim, they want you to have flown the aircraft recently. And even if all that wasn't a problem, the IAA have just opened the door to US pilots, so why do you think they would want to support such an unworkable plan?

I'm sure you are just arguing for the sake of it. I can respect that, it's good fun. But if you don't get how this disadvantages EU pilots, I can only surmise that you are an American with no regard for your Euro colleagues.

captjns

8th Jul 2006, 12:57

I'm sure you are just arguing for the sake of it. I can respect that, it's good fun. But if you don't get how this disadvantages EU pilots, I can only surmise that you are an American with no regard for your Euro colleagues.

No... I don't argue for the sake of it... wasted energy. I must say sir you are very callous in your posting to suggest I have no regard for my Euro colleagues.

I am tired of people not backing up their statements with written testimonials from such employment agencies in Ireland, and that the EEOC equivelant would stand for such discrimination. So rather then telling me to stick my head in the sand... come up with the proof... or knock off the belly aching.:{

MOR

8th Jul 2006, 14:46

Oh grow up, will you. You know as well as I do that neither the company nor the agency will produce anything in writing to anybody outside their respective organisations. That doesn't mean that the course of action is not occurring. To take the view that it isn't happening because I can't produce written proof is so completely naive as to defy description.

It's like saying "please provide written proof that the government is not considering a tax increase". Can't produce it? Ah well, they must be planning a tax rise then! Nothing more than sophistry.

bafanguy

8th Jul 2006, 14:58

Moderators:

I see you deleted the post by the guy who wanted to kick all the Americans out of Europe. Come on...that was some of the best stuff I've read on this forum. Your country gave the world Monty Python and Benny Hill...appreciate the good stuff when you read it !!

I figure it was a cry for help: the guy married a fat, ugly American chick thinking it was the route to a job in the US...the job fell through but he's still stuck with the fat, ugly American chick. Now THAT is funny.

JW411

8th Jul 2006, 16:12

You do not need a Green Card to work in the USA. I flew DC-10s for a Part 121 air carrier and all I needed was an L1 visa.

captjns

8th Jul 2006, 16:22

Oh grow up, will you. You know as well as I do that neither the company nor the agency will produce anything in writing to anybody outside their respective organisations. That doesn't mean that the course of action is not occurring. To take the view that it isn't happening because I can't produce written proof is so completely naive as to defy description.

Typical response from a chest beater that has no chest to beat. Go ahead MOR if it makes you fell better cry unfair.:{ I'm sure it will make you the big man on campus. You must be something special if you can't get a job in Europe with the pilot shortage that exists.

captjns

8th Jul 2006, 16:26

pltskiracer

8th Jul 2006, 16:51

You can only fly on the validation for a year. You must "convert" to a JAA license within 12 months. Meaning you have to take the 14 JAA written exams. Not an easy task with a full time pilot job. There are several European companies who offer jobs to FAA licensed pilots but you will be terminated if you don't pass the 14 exams within 12 months.

AA717driver

8th Jul 2006, 17:23

At one point a few years ago, there was talk of the ICAO allowing an ATP issued by any member state to be accepted by all members. That was before the JAA 14 part nightmare came into existance.

That clearly died on someone's desk.

But I have a question--Why do you believe the U.S. is so much more protectionist than the EU (or even Canada)? I have absolutely NO chance of gaining employment in the EU (other than with an Irish airline... ;) ) because I don't have the right to work there.

Why is that different than the U.S.? TC

bafanguy

8th Jul 2006, 20:18

Well put. I guess that guy is pissed off because the glory days of cheap flight courses and jobs are over for the time being. Oh well.

captjns,

Maybe he'll be back to fire off another barrage shortly. He certainly seems motivated.

captjns

8th Jul 2006, 23:20

captjns,

Maybe he'll be back to fire off another barrage shortly. He certainly seems motivated.

I'll be sure to keep my little old PC fired up.

filejw

9th Jul 2006, 00:49

Racer , If your a high time guy its not 14 more like 3 .. can't remember exactly..:}

Ignition Override

9th Jul 2006, 04:15

Pinnacle Airlines hired a fair selection of foreign pilots years ago, whether Nederlands (lady), South African, Canadian, Middle East, Scandinavian or English (!).

The English guy had joined either the Army NG or Army Reserve before he earned his pilot licenses. He made a decision to join the military and work with helicopters, accepting potential physical risk, to hope for a long-term opportunity. I asked him about the higher-paying jobs in Britain on similar aircraft types, and he told me that the much higher British taxes and cost of living leave pilots in a worse financial condition than over here in the US. That surprised me.

At least many of these pilots were somehow 'sponsored', whatever that is. Some had instructed at an int'l aviation school which suddenly :E and mysteriously filed for bankruptcy. I have a German friend who instructed "there" and then flew cargo but quit the freight-dog and flying business for good.

I met many of them and just flew today with one of them, who is Swedish, and he seems to speak a strange language on his cell phone. He said that he had the possibility years ago to interview with DragonAir in Hong Kong. My company now has pilots from many of those areas (even Trinidad) plus a French pilot, but I have no idea about other airlines. Just saw the French guy last night near a crewbase "wailing wall". Quite a number of Cabin Crew are also from other lands.

Whether marriage to an 'Ami' Chick was a factor, that I know not.
It is understandable and very frustrating to be a new pilot in a very bloated market and crave any flying job, in order to reach another career stepping stone. Can many of you guys/gals hope for an interview with a small company in the Pacific Rim? I wish you all good luck wherever, and safe flying.
Aeddi/adjo.

MOR

9th Jul 2006, 04:35

You must be something special if you can't get a job in Europe with the pilot shortage that exists.

As seems to be normal, you completely misunderstand the situation... I'm not in Europe, and I have no intention of ever returning there. I have a much better job in a much nicer part of the world.

As for 'chest beating"... your arrogance is exceeded only by your lack of comprehension.

pltskiracer

9th Jul 2006, 05:26

Racer , If your a high time guy its not 14 more like 3 .. can't remember exactly..:}

That is partially correct but only to fly a UK registered aircraft and you need a minimum of 3,000 hours as pilot of public transport aircraft over 30,000 kgs MTOW on scheduled international or similar routes, a minimum of 1,500 hours of which must have been as Pilot-in-Command.

I only have an FAA ATP 4500 tt, B737NG and EMB-145 type ratings. Currently flying a B737-800 internationally. I still have to take the 14 written exams.
I basically have to start from scratch if i want to fly in Europe. I guess the European registerd airplanes are a lot harder to fly then the N registered airplanes even though most of them are made in Seattle:)

captjns

9th Jul 2006, 08:18

Good morning Mr. MOR

No I want to see if I have this straight…

You open up this thread with:

Apparently the Irish CAA has now decided that it is perfectly OK to allow the Mesaba crews to follow their aircraft to Ireland and fly around Europe, under what is little more than a flag of convenience.

Naturally, Irish (or European) pilots would never be allowed reciprocal rights

F/Y/I The Irish don't have a CAA… it’s the Irish Aviation Authority.

And now for the $64,000 question if you are in the US, £34,570 if you are British, and €49,914 if you are not British or residing in the US… please do share with us… and do tell what better part of the world you are flying in today. And what national did you displace so you could secure some form of employment… even is you are not a pilot or in the airline industry for that matter?

The point is that Cityjet are engineering a position that allows them to hire cheap US labour on the basis of a faulty picture of the pool of available pilots

I need to know what the difference is in your situation in your better part of the world, or a foreign national seeking employment in Europe? Do I detect a double standard here?

Oh by the way if you respond… please don’t default to the usual lack comprehension, arrogance phrases, and what not phrases.

MOR

9th Jul 2006, 10:30

and do tell what better part of the world you are flying in today. And what national did you displace so you could secure some form of employment… even is you are not a pilot or in the airline industry for that matter?

In the South Pacific. As I hold dual nationality, I didn't displace anyone - I have never worked in a country of which I was not either a citizen, or in possession of the right to work (ie the EU). Therefore, no double standard.

If you don't enjoy being insulted, don't insult others.

PPRuNeUser0215

9th Jul 2006, 10:47

I have never worked in a country of which I was not either a citizen, or in possession of the right to work (ie the EU).
Surely that is the same for the Americans (if the story is true). I mean they are not doing it illegally therefore...

haughtney1

9th Jul 2006, 11:07

Amex, I think your missing the point...MOR is frustrated at the Irish CAA (IAA etc big deal!!) that in order for them to keep costs to an absolute minimum for their chums at S*ity-jet, they bend the rules to suit themselves!

As is usual in these kind of arguments, things tend to get personal, however, there does exist a very real perception that in the area of working Visa's and labour laws the US is master of double standards...on the one hand being protectionist, and on the other wanting to impose their regulation on foreign based US registered aircraft. (aka UPS, Polar, and more recently Atlas in the UK where the state department got involved trying to ride rough shot over a host of local UK rules)

captjns

9th Jul 2006, 11:41

I don’t mean to belabor the point… but suggesting that the IAA is bending the rules is also to perhaps suggesting that they are compromising safety in order to accelerate both the hiring and training process in order to accommodate Cityjet.

As previously stated, pilots in the US have had enough bad treatment when it comes to pay, benefit, and QOL. No one is going to uproot themselves, let alone their families to come to fly for Cityjet to experience the same treatment. In that respect MOR has not worries.

If there are no pilots to fly the planes, what are the airlines to do? Reduce their fleets? They can't do that. Look at EK, Singapore, Cathay, Eva... to name a few. I just don't know where the resentment is coming from. Why would anyone want to even think about going to the US to fly. They starting pay is less than what cabin crew in Europe earn. When and if there is a shortage of pilots in the US, the labor laws will be eased up as they were in the '80s and '90s, and once again there will be an influx of pilots from overseas. But in the mean time I don't understand what the problem is.

I don’t like individuals getting involved in a discussion to which they have no right to debate the point since they are not remotely affected. MOR about the insults… get a thicker skin. After all, you did cast the first stone my friend.

MOR

9th Jul 2006, 11:57

haughtney1 gets it. Good job mate.

No one is going to uproot themselves, let alone their families to come to fly for Cityjet to experience the same treatment.

Really? Interesting, then, that the agencies I have spoken to have a "significant" number of applications from Mesaba crews. Apparently, enough to cover the first ten aircraft or so. So they tell, me, anyway, but as they haven't put it in writing, perhaps it is all just a figment of my imagination...

I just don't know where the resentment is coming from.

You soon would if the US allowed an influx of (for example) Eastern European pilots, who would work for peanuts and would kill to get the benefits of life in the US. That is exactly why so many of them are moving into companies like Ryanair... because Ryanair is having trouble finding experienced crews in the EU. They would rather take people with a marginal grasp of English, than train some people themselves (although they are now so desperate that they are offering DECs and a bond, rather than insisting on a type rating).

I don’t like individuals getting involved in a discussion to which they have no right to debate the point since they are not remotely affected.

Then why are you involved in this discussion? I am involved because I have a close friend who is personally affected by this. What's your reason? If you don't have one, perhaps you should butt out.

haughtney1

9th Jul 2006, 12:10

I don’t like individuals getting involved in a discussion to which they have no right to debate the point since they are not remotely affected
Perhaps we should stifle debate...discussion is a bad thing?
I don’t mean to belabor the point… but suggesting that the IAA is bending the rules is also to perhaps suggesting that they are compromising safety in order to accelerate both the hiring and training process in order to accommodate City-jet
No..Im alleging that certain authority members are using their positions to benefit their associates/friends in the named organization, after all it wouldn't be the first time that this has happened with certain Irish regulators.
I have not suggested that safety is being compromised (that is your own extrapolation), I am certain the US crews are adequately trained.

captjns

9th Jul 2006, 12:46

Then why are you involved in this discussion? I am involved because I have a close friend who is personally affected by this. What's your reason? If you don't have one, perhaps you should butt out.

Well to begin with I have a right to work in the EU... that's why I'm involved. I have first hand experience and knowledge in both the US and the EU pilot needs as well as salaries. I am not half way round the world getting involved with anyone elses arguments. So perhaps sir, you should butt out.

Now it sounds like you have issues with former Eastern Block Nation pilots. Whose next... the Asians. You are clueless about pay issues for Eastern Block pilots in Europe. They are normal wages as are entry level or DECs for Ryanair, Easyjet and alike. The only requriement is that we secure our right to work in any EU country and take the required exams.

haughtney1

9th Jul 2006, 13:00

You are clueless about pay issues for Eastern Block pilots in Europe. They are normal wages as are entry level or DECs for Ryanair, Easyjet and alike

Tut tut, do a bit of research Captjns....you will find with Ryanair that they employ on an individual basis....the basic salary you are correct about, however the sector pay is a major area where they take the p*ss. There are plenty of eastern bloc pilots currently flying for RYR that are not even recieving sector pay! (makes up around 50% of your take home as you probably well know).

Easyjet are a different matter, they do however only pay you 90% for the first 6 months.
As one that has to try to understand the multitude of accents in UK airspace..I for one would like some of the eastern block guys to attend a few english classes:ok:

captjns

9th Jul 2006, 13:02

I have not suggested that safety is being compromised (that is your own extrapolation), I am certain the US crews are adequately trained.

Other expats that came over with me ha an average of 25 years airline experience on 75 ton and greater aircraft with at least 12,000 PIC on such type of equipment. The airline I work for does have high standards as far as DECs are concerned. I was not extrapolating any hypothesis, merely wondering what the general consensus was among pilots here... albeit the negative press that Ryanair has been getting.

Uprooting ourselves to come over to Europe for better opportuities was a very hard decision to make. It was a matter of economics and survival. Expats are contract pilots, and not employees of the companies they fly for. We will be the first to be layed off when and if the time comes. Hopefully I will be retired when that day comes.

The US experienced a similar shortage in the '80s and '90s, during major expansions, which came to a halt even before 9/11. The same rapid grwoth is occurring in Europe now... lots of planes, and nobody to fly them. After all airlines don't make money with their aircraft sitting on the ground... thus the need for ready current qualified crews that are eligible for a quick conversion course. Asian carriers are just beginning to experience the growth at this time... particularly in China.

LCCs are jockeying for position to be the survivors when the competition balloon bursts... resulting in lower wages and furloughs.

captjns

9th Jul 2006, 13:12

Tut tut, do a bit of research Captjns....you will find with Ryanair that they employ on an individual basis....the basic salary you are correct about, however the sector pay is a major area where they take the p*ss. There are plenty of eastern bloc pilots currently flying for RYR that are not even recieving sector pay! (makes up around 50% of your take home). So if you are ill-informed enough to believe and post on a website what you think you know about RYR, perhaps you need to do a little more research:ok: Or failing that, ask who ever told you about RYR to explain sector pay...sim costs..hotac away from base etc etc
Easyjet are a different matter, they do however only pay you 90% for the first 6 months.
As one that has to try to understand the multitude of accents in UK airspace..I for one would like some of the eastern block guys to attend a few english classes:ok:

Yes I heard stories of 14 people in a class with 14 different contracts... very confusing and leads to resentment. There is a contractor who funnels pilots to RYR where the pay is very standard with no arguments.

I know from conversations at local pubs that there were major issues about sector pay for new hired F/Os... 2 stripers. They were to recieve half sector pay for the first six months of flying after being checked out and full there after. Some of these guys had to have sit downs with certain people to get this matter resolved. They were saying that the new Director of Ground Ops in EGSS is an OK guy and got the matter resolved.

But on a whole the sector pay program sucks. From what I understand, they schedule the sectors about 5 to 10 minutes short of what that sector should actually be.

Yes I also agree the language is also a problem with not only RYR guys but Easyjet, Globespan... just to name a few.

At then end of the day... it appears to be a free market society in the airline industry in Europe, India and Asia as well. When one get fed up to the point they can't take it any more then they just move on to the next and so on.

PPRuNeUser0215

9th Jul 2006, 15:20

MOR is frustrated at the Irish CAA (IAA etc big deal!!) that in order for them to keep costs to an absolute minimum for their chums at S*ity-jet, they bend the rules to suit themselves!

I have had no direct dealing with the IAA although I do tend to agree that they are seen in Europe as being some Authority of Convenience (along with TL reg aircrafts).
Yet from reading MOR's posts, I was under the impression that he was having a go at the Yanks flying overhere and therefore was directing his hits at these guys who are actually nothing more than working wherever there is work meeting their T&Cs requirements as well as the local authorities ones.
Actually thinking about it (and it is a genuine question), rather than blaming the IAA, is it not the Immigration/Home office departments who should take the flak?
After all, they are the ones granting the legal right to stay and work in their country of authority.

I have worked in more than one country and hope to do that again as I see the possibility to do that as one of the beautiful things coming with the job. I got to experience different lifestyle and frankly I can only wish that to happen to others.
So sometimes it bothers me when people are having a go at others for stealing "their" mate's jobs blah blah blah.
If it is legal and sanctionned by the relevant authorities then why not? Anyone unhappy about it should vote for a different government hoping they ll change things (as if any government would do anything else other than filling their pockets and own aspirations).

I do agree though that the IAA seem to be the softy one amongst Euro Aviation Authorities (and some know how to use it).

JW411

9th Jul 2006, 16:53

I seem to remember that BA had a bunch of Ameican pilots flying a couple of BAe 146s out of Belfast some years ago?

MOR

10th Jul 2006, 03:15

Well to begin with I have a right to work in the EU... that's why I'm involved.

Oh good, we are equally qualified. Except of course that I am actually an EU citizen as well. The location from which I am typing is irrelevant.

Now it sounds like you have issues with former Eastern Block Nation pilots. Whose next... the Asians.

Comprehension problems again... I have no issue with any ethnic group, but it is a simple fact that the two groups you mention will work for less than the going rate, just to secure residency in a country with a better economic outlook. Why do you think the economy of California is so heavily dependent on wetback labour? Same principle. Whether Ryanair pay them fairly is a moot point, and you have to look at the wider picture in any case. My sole concern with some of the Eastern Europeans I have come across in LCCs is their poor grasp of english.

You are clueless about pay issues for Eastern Block pilots in Europe. They are normal wages as are entry level or DECs for Ryanair, Easyjet and alike.

So are you, it seems:

Yes I heard stories of 14 people in a class with 14 different contracts... very confusing and leads to resentment.

Well, which is it?

AMEX

Yet from reading MOR's posts, I was under the impression that he was having a go at the Yanks flying overhere and therefore was directing his hits at these guys who are actually nothing more than working wherever there is work meeting their T&Cs requirements as well as the local authorities ones.

Not at all. I have no issues whatsoever with pilots working wherever they legally can, and in many ways professional pilots are true internationalists. My ONLY issue is with national authorities opening the doors to foreign pilots when there is already a pool of qualifed people in their own back yard, and where the reasons for doing so are purely economic. As far as taking it up with Irish Immigration, they are simply responding to a request from both the airline in question and the IAA. As others have noted, there is a cosy little club operating here.

So sometimes it bothers me when people are having a go at others for stealing "their" mate's jobs blah blah blah.
If it is legal and sanctionned by the relevant authorities then why not?

Firstly, for the reasons stated above, but secondly - and more importantly - because there is no reciprocity. If the US opened its doors to foreign pilots on the same basis that the Irish apprently have, I would be more than happy to say no more on the subject. But, of course, they won't.

Anyone unhappy about it should vote for a different government hoping they ll change things (as if any government would do anything else other than filling their pockets and own aspirations).

Precisely...

747boy

13th Jul 2006, 08:22

http://www.rte.ie/business/2006/0713/cityjet.html

corklad

16th Jul 2006, 01:33

As the one irish person, from what i can see in this argument, I am going to stand up for the IAA. They are perfectly entitled to offer validations for people to fly Irish registered aircraft if they so choose. Iceland does it too as can any JAA country if they wish. How is it that the english are sooo chummy with the JAA and europe when it comes to flying while at the same time hate the EU!! Perhaps the CAA in gatwick should stop being such complete A-holes about letting europeans with forgein licenses come home and fly, it may stop the very situation you are complaining about!!! I did my training in USA, Cananda and have ratings on the 737 and king air and the CAA treated me like a lepper all because of their outragous JAR regs!! Last time I looked boeings were made in seattle!! I guess they build extra special ones for the UK?? how do you expect one to fork out another 64K to start flying from scratch? Also, why is it that any new member EU state can automatically convert their national license to JAA and I cant even get a look in?? I remember standing in gatwick next to an eastern european bloke who could barely string a sentence together in english, and the CAA hapily converted his national license for him, all because his country just joined the EU, he told me he was off to join easyjet!!! Go figure?????:ugh:
If we in Ireland choose to use a bit of common sense to solve our companies problems then we have every right too. The CAA can do what they want in england and we will do what we want in ireland. And before you rag on the Irish set up you should look at how oxford and cabair have been in league with the CAA for yrs...the schools write the ridiculous rules to keep students from having a choice of training else where. thats called monopoly and protectionism! Dont you think if BA needed pilots desperately the CAA would bend....you bet your ass they would.
It all comes down to money. no bucks, no buck rogers! If airlines cannot make money they will go bust and if they go bust there is no need for pilots. as for americans flying in europe i have no problems with that at all. lots and i mean lots of european blokes get their work permits to work in the US or Asia or elsewhere, lots of people like me got screwed when the JAA was introduced and had to look else where becasue we werent welcome in JAA land. It amazes me how many pilots here have no clue about running a business though. It all about making money. Airlines need to make money to stay aflot...they dont care how they meet their quota, just as long as the can make a profit. pilots and pilot nationalities have nothing to do with it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They just need able bodies to fly their shiney planes and make money for them!!!! :bored:

MercenaryAli

16th Jul 2006, 11:19

[ - I remember standing in gatwick next to an eastern european bloke who could barely string a sentence together in english, and the CAA hapily converted his national license for him, all because his country just joined the EU, he told me he was off to join easyjet!!! Go figure?????
A thread of sense CORKLAD, particularly with regard to the almost non existent English language ability (or lack thereof ) of your Eastern European that now can fly any aircraft registered in the EU (spit!) anywhere in the world.
the Irish CAA (IAA) are taking a sensible and pragmatic view of a scarcity of well qualified and competent pilots.
Long may it last!

princeton

17th Jul 2006, 16:29

Yes Corklad I agree totally :ok: . I can't see why JARland accuse the US of protectionism:

I am Irish and came over to the US a couple of years ago, got my FAA licences, instructed here for a year where I met quite a few foreign flight instructors (mostly German, Austrian and Canadian) who were sponsored for work visas by the flight schools.

I moved on to a Regional flying out of Newark (the one with a fleet of 274 EMB145's). I have flown with a ton of Europeans there: Spanish, Swedish, English, French, Irish; everyone loves it (no BA style forced draft or anything of the sort).

Yes, as FO the pay is not good but you can upgrade in two years and anyway the loans you have to pay off are only a fraction of what they would have been for training in Europe. At any rate you can move on to a major if you want in another year or two after that once you have a 1000 hrs turbine PIC.

The only glitch I have seen recently is that the Major that most of our pilots go to is rumoured to prefer not to hire non-US citizens because of the "TSA regs" i.e. just a whole load of hassle getting people authorized by Homeland Security - I am sure that'll change when they start trying to hire 60-70 pilots a month after the summer is over.

Anyway, by that time, after five or six years here most people will have their green card and close to getting US Citizenship, I understand that is not something as easy to do in Red tape-land.

Gnirren

17th Jul 2006, 18:17

It's interesting to me how the US government is so protective of it's market that even in the face of a pilot shortage they will not make it easier for properly certified and rated europeans to enter the country and work. I swear sometimes I think apart from marriage or winning the lottery the only way to get into the states is to float ashore on an innertube from Cuba.

Personally I prefer flying in the US over europe and I'd do that any day. Unlike europe where aviation in general is treated like something nasty, in the states I found it receives a lot of attention. Flying in general is promoted and the americans take a very practical approach to it. Just the fact that you can carry a pocket version of the latest regs in your flight bag to me is excellent, instead of this obscure binder system we have in JAA land. Here flying is meant to be difficult, with burning hoops to jump through just for the sake of it. Make it cost a lot, and make it difficult and we'll see who prevails kind of thing I guess.

The cheesecake is better over there too...

dartagnan

17th Jul 2006, 19:01

the only way to get into the states is to float ashore on an innertube from Cuba.

No visa: try the border between Canada /US, 2000 miles of forrest.

once in the USA, you can apply for free food stamps,free SSN, free education,free housing, free health care,free transportation, free loan, free compensation, free attorney, free asylum, free green card,free nationalisation, ... :E

If you go to the USA with a visa, you got nothing, even deportation is at your own cost.

Flymix

17th Jul 2006, 20:09

Lets be clear regarding protectionism and pilot jobs...the licensing laws in JAA land are a form of protectionism.

It is a given that you need the right to work in a country (citizenship, greecard/visa) before an airline will offer you employment.

However, it is MUCH easier for a European with the right to live in the USA to convert licenses and gain employment than it is for a Yank to convert and work in Europe. It would cost a European about $5000 (maybe) and a month or two to get convert a JAA ATP for a FAA one. It would cost an American ATP holder about $20,000 and at least a year to go JAA.

Flying in the USA for an airline for just over a year, I have flown with Captains and known FO's from from Sweden, Finland, England, Jamaica, Argentina, Japan, S Korea and Columbia. Many moved to the US for a better career path (how times change!) How many European crews have non-Europeans there? And how many are in Europe for family reasons and HAD to convert to get a job (as opposed to going to JAA land to get a job and then getting married for example)

MOR

18th Jul 2006, 03:28

I can't see why JARland accuse the US of protectionism:

Simple. Because the US would never offer reciprocal recognition of a JAA licence.

who were sponsored for work visas by the flight schools.

Well of course they were, it is simply a device to make money by attracting foreign students.

I have flown with a ton of Europeans there

...all of whom have the right to live and work there.

Lets be clear regarding protectionism and pilot jobs...the licensing laws in JAA land are a form of protectionism.

ALL licensing laws are a form of protectionism! It is the level to which each authority will recognise other qualifications, that matters. In this case, the Irish are alllowing US licence holders an immediate recognition of their licence, simply because it is economically expedient for an airline based there. Now, does the US do that? Nope. Not a chance in hell of that happening.

The Irish are simply a flag of convenience.

corklad

18th Jul 2006, 12:36

MOR I think you are missing the point! The IAA are giving validations for ANY ICAO license which meet the airlines requirments to fly their planes. It doesnt matter if its aussie, kiwi or FAA. Ok I guess you dont like the united states...whats new in england these days??? By the way the CAA in England have been letting FAA people fly BA/ATLAS 747's for yrs now (same deal)...so I think you know where you can put your flag of convenience :hmm: Your logic seems backwards here, you want everyone in europe to make it so ridiculously impossible to transfer their licenses like in the UK! I think you are getting confussed too about the right to work and the transfer of a license. It doest matter which country you go to. If you cant get a visa or work permit then it doest matter about transfering your license. If you are able to get a green card to work in the states then license transfer is a fairly straight forward process and will cost no more than a few thousand dollars. Nobody swaps like for like...except maybe some of the african nations. however if you manage to get an EU passport the transfer process is a nightmare...no recripoicol recognition. just 14 exams and start flying again from scratch...I wonder what arrogant bright spark thought that one up?? Protestionism at it extreme I say! :ugh: anyway this argument is getting tedious, new thread!!

haughtney1

18th Jul 2006, 13:21

By the way the CAA in England have been letting FAA people fly BA/ATLAS 747's for yrs now (same deal)...so I think you know where you can put your flag of convenience

To the best of my knowledge the CAA insisted on the 14 exams being completed within a 12 month period.....BALPA also took a dim view on the practise..which contributed to the CAA's insistence.

Edited cos its more hassle than its worth

captjns

18th Jul 2006, 18:15

Lets face it... MOR is just has nothing else better to do but to complain about yanks coming over to Europe and fly new jets. Why is he complaining? Beats me. He is sitting pretty in the South Pacific flying... so he claims. on a dual nationality passport... again so he claims. I just don't get what his gripe is about. Perhaps he has way to much time on his hands. If he has a job, and is making a respectable living then give the gripe a rest already... unless MOR's friends have hired him to be their offical spokesman. Yes I know, those that are not in agreement with MOR will reciece the typical, "you don't have a clue". Time to give it a rest MOR.

MOR

18th Jul 2006, 23:11

Let's face it... captjns is just an American expat, working in Europe, with everything to gain and nothing to lose to the policies of the IAA. He cannot argue on the pertinent issues, so he continues with the personal attacks that one comes to expect of arrogant Americans. reminds me a lot of the times I have visited New York... the rudeness, the arrogance, the complete failure to grasp the argument.

Although we already know that our American visitor will not be able to grasp the argument, I will reiterate it. It is really exceedingly simple.

1). The IAA is acting under pressure from a company that is trying to gain an economic advantage by hiring foreigners. That in itself is corrupt.

2). The IAA is extending a facility to foreign pilots that is not being reciprocated by the FAA. That is simply foolish.

I am also rather amused that our American expat is so keen to stifle debate on the basis of where one lives. That is such a completely spurious tactic that I just have to laugh. As a British and EU citizen, I am far more qualified to make the argument than he is.

No, I think if anyone should give it a rest, it should be captnjs. Unless, of course, he can argue the issues... no. Probably not.

captjns

19th Jul 2006, 11:48

reminds me a lot of the times I have visited New York... the rudeness, the arrogance, the complete failure to grasp the argument.

No, I think if anyone should give it a rest, it should be captnjs. Unless, of course, he can argue the issues... no. Probably not.

It is your opinion that EU carriers should invest in training from the start, rather than hiring current and qualified airman to fill the seats of aircraft that are arriving on their property. If companies followed your tenet, then planes sit on the ground... thus earn no money... poor business practice.

Shareholders, and members of the Board of Directors would be up in arms when they review the reports as to why they are taking delivery of aircraft and there are not enough crews to fly the equipment. I don't know but what do you think??? can an airline make money with airplanes sitting on the ground? I know... it may be a tough one for you... but hey... give it a go.

Do you think in your right mind that the IAA or any aviation agency for that matter would allow so many expats to fill these seats if there was not a need to bolster the economy of the EU??? to keep up with the demand of passenger travel??? to keep up with international commerce??? I know... it’s another tough one for you but give a go.

Don't you think that once there are EU member pilots qualified to fill these seats that the expats' services will be terminated? I know for sure you will be thrilled when that day comes. But hey... then you can give up you exiled life in the South Pacific and come back to and fly in your home land.

Hey by the way... it's quite apparent, from your posts, as to why you may have received such treatment from citizens of the former colonies. Don't worry, you're not missed.

If I were not a gentleman I would say you should add ON to the end of your screen name.

bear11

19th Jul 2006, 14:15

The IAA is acting under pressure from a company that is trying to gain an economic advantage by hiring foreigners. That in itself is corrupt.
Good man, MOR - talk about arguing the issues, then out of the other side of your mouth get personal with another poster and pompous with everyone else. And then, as the piece de resistance, tell the IAA that they are corrupt. I'm sure an accusation of corruption from an anonymous mouth on an aviation forum will sort everything out.:D

Incidentally, I don't think it's obligatory to do all 14 JAA exams within 1 year - it depends on the CAA involved, some of them nominate a certain amount to be done every year and will continue the validation as long as this term is complied with.

MOR

19th Jul 2006, 17:32

t is your opinion that EU carriers should invest in training from the start, rather than hiring current and qualified airman to fill the seats of aircraft that are arriving on their property.

Like I said... a complete inability to grasp the argument. Nobody is suggesting training ab initio pilots - although many airlines do so, including the likes of Easyjet. The point is that Cityjet are taking US expats over type-rated and experienced European crews. See the second post on page 2.

More to the point... nobody is saying that it is wrong to allow expats to fly in Europe per se, simply that suitably qualified Europeans should be employed first (second post, page 2).

It does, however, make one wonder if the aircraft and the crews were a package deal...

Don't you think that once there are EU member pilots qualified to fill these seats that the expats' services will be terminated?

Yeah, right... see above. Why do you have so much trouble comprehending the argument?

But hey... then you can give up you exiled life in the South Pacific and come back to and fly in your home land.

Fool. I came here deliberately, for the same reason that you apparently went to Europe. Or was it because you weren't good enough to get a decent job in the US? That seems a more likely scenario.

If I were not a gentleman

You are, by no stretch of the imagination, any form of gentleman (or what passes for such in NYC).

Now if you must bore us with a response, please try to stick to the argument, and not spear off into misunderstanding and some spurious attack on a point that was never made in the first place. Can you manage that? or would you like me to list the points under discussion, yet again? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

captjns

19th Jul 2006, 18:21

Like I said... a complete inability to grasp the argument. Nobody is suggesting training ab initio pilots - although many airlines do so, including the likes of Easyjet. The point is that Cityjet are taking US expats over type-rated and experienced European crews. See the second post on page 2.

There aren't a lot of 146/RJ drivers around in the first place, and even fewer who are current within the last 3-6 months, which is what Cityjet have required for at least the last year or so. Cityjet clearly believe that non-current 146/RJ pilots pose a training risk, so they would rather have nice, current Americans. Once that resource dries up, they may well start taking the un-current guys, in fact they will probably end up training a whole bunch from scratch. There simply aren't that many rated people around any more, most have long since moved to the 737 or A320 or are quite happy to stay where they are, and get trained on new equipment as more 146s are retired.

I don't know... but there sure seems to be a chip on your shoulder.

More to the point... nobody is saying that it is wrong to allow expats to fly in Europe per se, simply that suitably qualified Europeans should be employed first (second post, page 2).

There aren't many pilots in Europe that want work for Cityjet... so what other options does Cityjet have?

It does, however, make one wonder if the aircraft and the crews were a package deal...

It may be but so far there are no bites from the Mesaba group coming over to Europe... Like I said pilots are not going to go from one low paying job to another one.

Fool. I came here deliberately, for the same reason that you apparently went to Europe. Uh huh... OK.

Very mature statement regarding employment out of the US... typical comment from a malevolent malcontent.

Hey don’t worry… when the expat infusion slows down, and when the carriers get desperate enough for pilots, maybe they will give you a call to come back home for an interview... maybe that is if they are desparate enough... I know… you say its your choice to be where you are. that will be our little secret.

By the way MOR... since according to you I'm not a gentleman I'll filled in the rest of the letters for your screen name. Have a nice day:)

me109

19th Jul 2006, 18:39

:\ :mad: I couldnt agree more with MOR . It is disgraceful that the IAA have agreed to this . Any prospective student pilot could now go to the US and take an FAA license , get some hours , pay for a cheap non JAA type rating and get a job in Europe .
I myself have worked hard to get my ATPL , issued by the IAA , and am flying for a UK airline . This type of behaviour by the IAA and Cityjet, is giving irish aviation a reputation for being savagely corupt.
This type of thing has being going on for a while now , and now I am going to exchange my ATPL for a UK ATPL . If this continues , I would urge everyone in the same position to do the same while you still can .
Already , there are some well known TRE's , not associated with Cityjet or FR , making noise about insisting prospective new hires exchange their license .
I have no problems with non EU individuals , however airlines in the EU should hire all those license holders without jobs firstly . No other industry would tolerate this and Iam glad to see the stance both the CAA and BALPA have taken on this . And of course , going back to the original debate , as I have mentioned above , this not only covers Cityjet.
Cityjet is full of ex Aircorps , with a lot of influence with the IAA . I have not worked for Cityjet , but have known some fine pilots from there .

EnglishmaninNY

19th Jul 2006, 20:55

Princeton - check your PM's

corklad

19th Jul 2006, 21:24

I think some people here have a very high opinion of themselves and think life owes them something. when I finished university and went to learn to fly in the states there was no JAA in ireland. It only came into practice after I had shelfed out a fortune getting all my licenses and multi time. Before i left home, the standard practice was an airlaw exam and flight check to standards and you could swap your license over (which is in line with most ICAO countries). It was the bloody JAA protectionist racket that stoped me and plenty of my frineds from ireland to come home or to the uk and find a job. many of them either stayed in the states or went to canada, if they could immigrate. others went to africa. I find it very anoying listening to hot-heads bluster all about not letting people fly without JAA licenses. Im sorry people cannot find a job with only 200hrs...but thats life, nobody owes you anything, you have to make the most of it and find work where you can. I cannot tell you how crappy the last 6yr have been for me trying to build hrs and find flying work but you dont hear me complaining about it. but im now in a position to return home and work because the IAA are using some comon sense and giving people the oppertunity who are QUALIFIED to fly the planes that IRISH airlines use!! It amazes me that people here expect guys who have had to slog it out to gain experiance should have to start from scratch again just to get a job back home. we arent all multi-millionaires you know. the term SOUR GRAPES springs to mind! :ok:

captjns

19th Jul 2006, 21:30

I cannot tell you how crappy the last 6yr have been for me trying to build hrs and find flying work but you dont hear me complaining about it. but im now in a position to return home and work because the IAA are using some comon sense and giving people the oppertunity who are QUALIFIED to fly the planes that IRISH airlines use!! It amazes me that people here expect guys who have had to slog it out to gain experiance should have to start from scratch again just to get a job back home. we arent all multi-millionaires you know. the term SOUR GRAPES springs to mind! :ok:

:D A pint of Guiness for you... well said Corklad.

corklad

19th Jul 2006, 21:55

"Any prospective student pilot could now go to the US and take an FAA license , get some hours , pay for a cheap non JAA type rating and get a job in Europe"

ME109, I think your idea of getting your training, ratings and licenses in the states is ill informed. What you suggest would take yrs to accomplish. i should know I had to do it. Despite what you hear in the UK or ireland, FAA flight training standards are very tough. The theory side is more difficult in europe i totally agree, but often, the flying side is far more difficult with the FAA. you have to master more manouvers that are not taught back home. No one in their right mind would employ someone with 200-250 hrs in canada or america on to an ATR-42 never mind a boeing or airbus!!! you would still be considered far too green!! one cannot get a look in at regionals until they have at least 800hrs with 200 multi. its even higher in canada!!! how long do you think it would take a person to go to the states, get a pvt then IR then cpl then multi ir cpl, then cfi, cfii and an mei. then, build up 250 multi hrs and 1000 total, and then try and get a regional job? perhaps, after you earn a pittence over the yrs you get a type rating and get 100-500hrs+ on said type rating. I will tell you...it takes YEARS!!!!!! and lots of heartache and luck along the way!! dont believe all the JAA hype, if it was such a sucessful system there would be more qualified pilots about with the necessary hrs and experiance the airlines need to hire them. its precisely because the JAA schools fall short on giving students flying hrs/experience that we are in this mess. they are desigened to place 5% of graduates in cockpits. problem is there are now more planes than pilots...whos going to fly them??? johnny 200hrs in a cessan 150???? yeah right! :ugh: Its the flightschools and their money making rackets that you should be complainig about not the IAA. who do you think wrote the syllabus/rules and regs for the CAA/JAA? the schools write the rules to suit themselves to stop people from going abroad and the JAA endorses it cause of the money they make from exams. It worked fine when the airlines weren't hiring after 9/11. now the recovery is in full swing and the airlines now need more bodies to fly their new orders...whopps...the jaa made it so hard and expensive that the system only spate out out qualified people in dribs and drabs... with no experience...now they need 100s. the IAA are being sensible and using common sense to solve the situation, only time will see if the pig-headed arrogant CAA will follow suit..I doubt it.:mad:

haughtney1

19th Jul 2006, 22:09

the flying side is far more difficult with the FAA. you have to master more manouvers that are not taught back home
:yuk: utter bilge Cork lad...just different, of course they SEEM harder if you havent learnt them:hmm:
one in their right mind would employ someone with 200-250 hrs in canada or america on to an ATR-42 never mind a boeing or airbus!!! you would still be considered far too green!! one cannot get a look in at regionals until they have at least 800hrs with 200 multi
That comment shows how little you understand the North American pilot market...the reason for higher minimums is simple, there are FAR FAR more experienced pilots in the US, they still train in the time honoured way (the way I did) by doing the CPL...instructing a bit...a bit of PT 135 etc....3 years and 2000hrs later they are ready for the regionals:ok:
the IAA are being sensible and using common sense to solve the situation, only time will see if the pig-headed arrogant CAA will follow suit..I doubt it
True colours coming out eh? Embittered because of the rules changed?
I find it very anoying listening to hot-heads bluster all about not letting people fly without JAA licenses. Im sorry people cannot find a job with only 200hrs...but thats life, nobody owes you anything, you have to make the most of it and find work where you can
Missing the point here....we arent talking about the 200hr pilot...we are talking about JAA licensed and experienced people being passed up because its easier and cheaper for the IAA to endorse US pilots..for their buddys in previously mentioned organisations:hmm:

MOR

20th Jul 2006, 01:32

There aren't many pilots in Europe that want work for Cityjet... so what other options does Cityjet have?

OMG I can't believe that you STILL don't get it.

There are only two issues here. One is reciprocity - which you steadfastly refuse to comment on - and the other is using the local pilots first. Those are the only two issues. Once the local pool is exhausted - whatever it's size - Cityjet can do what they want.

Those are the only two issues. They are exceedingly simple. Maybe you should add your two letters and use the name for yourself.

It may be but so far there are no bites from the Mesaba group coming over to Europe... Like I said pilots are not going to go from one low paying job to another one.

The three main agencies employing pilots for Cityjet all say differently. Give them a call.

maybe they will give you a call etc etc etc

Hard as it is to stoop to your level, I will say that I have several offers to return, and all from airlines far higher up the pecking order than Cityjet. I don't want to work for Cityjet. I never have, never will. I have a friends who does, though, and he is being disadvantaged by the IAA pandering to a local business.

But who would want to return to Europe from the relative comfort of the South Pacific? Nah, you can have the crappy weather and the crowds and the pollution all to yourself.

since according to you I'm not a gentleman I'll filled in the rest of the letters for your screen name.

Thank you for fulfilling my expectations and showing your true colours.

corklad

It was the bloody JAA protectionist racket that stoped me and plenty of my frineds from ireland to come home or to the uk and find a job.

Awwwww.... didn't work out quite according to plan, did it? Guess that is what happens when you decide to train overseas. Maybe you should have gone to one of the US schools that train to JAA standards... but maybe that wasn't such a bargain, huh?

And people say I have a chip on my shoulder... you have an entire timber yard.

Im sorry people cannot find a job with only 200hrs

Nobody is suggesting that they should. That isn't the issue.

but you dont hear me complaining about it

Really? You seem to have spent half a page complaining about it! Even if it was the issue - which it isn't.

It amazes me that people here expect guys who have had to slog it out to gain experiance should have to start from scratch again just to get a job back home.

Hmmm just like you do if you go from Europe to the US... maybe you should have trained to JAA standards if you wanted to return.

who do you think wrote the syllabus/rules and regs for the CAA/JAA? the schools write the rules to suit themselves to stop people from going abroad and the JAA endorses it cause of the money they make from exams.

There's that chip again... you really believe the schools write the regs? You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

how long do you think it would take a person to go to the states, get a pvt then IR then cpl then multi ir cpl, then cfi, cfii and an mei. then, build up 250 multi hrs and 1000 total, and then try and get a regional job?

So WHY did you go to the US to train? Because you thought that you would short-cut the system and get a cheap US licence, then come home to Ireland and get a job? But you didn't notice that they were going JAR and it wouldn't be quite so easy?

How totally naive.

TVIR40

20th Jul 2006, 01:59

You have to also take in to account whether the aircraft are on the FAA regs or going on to the Irish Reg with all the restrictions that may impose on the flight deck operating. Also onto which AOC the aircraft falls under!

Apologise if that has been raised but I have not read each and every post! Time does not permit me to at the moment.

PPRuNe Radar

20th Jul 2006, 04:12

Perhaps the CAA in gatwick should stop being such complete A-holes about letting europeans with forgein licenses come home and fly, it may stop the very situation you are complaining about!!! I did my training in USA, Cananda and have ratings on the 737 and king air and the CAA treated me like a lepper all because of their outragous JAR regs!! Last time I looked boeings were made in seattle!! I guess they build extra special ones for the UK?? how do you expect one to fork out another 64K to start flying from scratch? Also, why is it that any new member EU state can automatically convert their national license to JAA and I cant even get a look in?? I remember standing in gatwick next to an eastern european bloke who could barely string a sentence together in english, and the CAA hapily converted his national license for him, all because his country just joined the EU,

Corklad

I may have missed something somewhere, but why wouldn't your first port of call to get a JAA Land licence be your own national CAA, i.e the IAA ??

Presumably they'd be more than happy to convert your licence, wouldn't they ?

captjns

20th Jul 2006, 11:47

Hard as it is to stoop to your level, I will say that I have several offers to return, and all from airlines far higher up the pecking order than Cityjet.

Wow..:D . did you think of that all by yourself without adult supervision? Give yourself a cookie.

Checked with the Mesaba group... no takers.

corklad

20th Jul 2006, 12:31

MOR
"Awwwww.... didn't work out quite according to plan, did it? Guess that is what happens when you decide to train overseas. Maybe you should have gone to one of the US schools that train to JAA standards... but maybe that wasn't such a bargain, huh?"
No MOR, sorry to dissappoint you. There was no JAA back when I and many of my friends left...it was some vague new system that was coming some time soon and nobody really knew what to expect of it. I was ready to start flying so why would i wait another year or 2??
"Hmmm just like you do if you go from Europe to the US... maybe you should have trained to JAA standards if you wanted to return".
Again MOR, why should I fork out another small fortune to start from scratch? Im not rich kid with an endless supply ofr funds and time is money, not that you seem to care. I guess, according to your logic I should have gone to the money tree to get the necessay funds to go back flying cessnas again :yuk:
"There's that chip again... you really believe the schools write the regs? You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about."
Sorry but, i think the chips lie firmly on both of your shoulders MOR! :mad: I think you'll find I know a little more about running a business than you do, you seem to have no idea of economics! You seem quite anti-american and anti-irish having observed your comments and remarks. I note that your hostility is vented at the FAA...I hold both FAA and Transport Canada licneses. Do you also not like Canadians or Aussies coming in or is it just FAA tickect holders???
haughtney1
"That comment shows how little you understand the North American pilot market...the reason for higher minimums is simple, there are FAR FAR more experienced pilots in the US, they still train in the time honoured way (the way I did) by doing the CPL...instructing a bit...a bit of PT 135 etc....3 years and 2000hrs later they are ready for the regionals"
Sorry haughtney1, but i think i understand that market place perfectly well, I have been here on and off for almost 7 yrs!! You do make a valid point though.
"True colours coming out eh? Embittered because of the rules changed?"
Embittered, NO, dissappointed YES, I will freely admit that one! :( but who wouldnt be???
"Missing the point here....we arent talking about the 200hr pilot...we are talking about JAA licensed and experienced people being passed up because its easier and cheaper for the IAA to endorse US pilots..for their buddys in previously mentioned organisations"
I have to disagree here. I dont belive that anyone with the required experiance is being passed up for a forgeiner. I think, though i appologise if i am wrong, that you are taking a simplistic view on this one. I would say, as everyone now knows, that because there are no real cadetships anymore and that companies dont want to pay for training, they are only taking the guys who are experienced and ready to go. The policy of 500hrs on type for example springs to mind. If it makes business sense, money wise, to get pilots from abroad then thats what the companies are going to do. Again its a business not a hobby or a club that some people seem to think they are ENTITLED TO JOIN! The companies dont feel like they have to spend their money to pay pilots to fly their planes. Is that right or wrong? Not for me to decide but its been that way for a long while now. So if there is a need to get asses on cockpit seats they are going to do it in the cheapest, fastest and easiest way possible. If that helps people like me to return home and get a job, then Im sorry but Im going to take that option. Same as anyone else here would.
Pprune Radar
"I may have missed something somewhere, but why wouldn't your first port of call to get a JAA Land licence be your own national CAA, i.e the IAA ??
Presumably they'd be more than happy to convert your licence, wouldn't they ?"
Very simply really, at the time i was told that the CAA was the place to go to sort things out. thats the only reason why I went there really. After being told "soooo sorry", I went to canada to build some more hrs. What I would say was nobody there ever seemed to care about forgeiners flying in their country. the conversion process was relatively straight fwd...flying at -10 wasnt though :{

Miles Hi

20th Jul 2006, 13:36

captjns

20th Jul 2006, 13:48

Sorry for my humble opinion. If Cityjet are getting new aircraft in, and they don't have either sufficient or suitable crews to operate them, should they not investigate the availability of crews from elsewhere, including the US?

Don't TCX, among others, have reciprocal agreements that see US pilots working in the summer in the UK, then returning to the US for the winter? The CAA seem to endorse those with no problems.

Finally, if it's such a bad deal, surely Mesaba pilots have the right to say no? Are they being drected to Cityjet?

Told you it was a humble opinion, but I don't see why Cityjet should be pilloried for taking crews from good sources, and I don't see why US pilots should be pilloried for going wherever work is available. I'd choose that over unemployment anyday.

Miami Air and Excel have a reciprocal agreement where by one of the Excel 737s goes to Florida for the winter and returns to England during the summer. Miami Air crews obtain certificates from the CAA so they can fly “G” registered aircraft. It’s a bit less complicated when the aircraft are in the US.

There seems to be an exiled EU pilot living and flying in the South Pacific who can’t seem to grasp the concept of the old supply and demand concept… in other words if there are no supplies around the corner, you need to look elsewhere. He is under the delusion that the more you pay for your training the more entitled you are to a job in Europe. Now I have to ask you did you ever hear of anything as ridiculous as this? MORon should start a crusade and banish the JAA training schools in the US.

While the Mesaba jets maybe going to Europe, the pilots are going on to bigger and better in the US or Emirates for that matter.

MOR

20th Jul 2006, 15:30

corklad

I think you'll find I know a little more about running a business than you do, you seem to have no idea of economics!

I doubt that, I currently run two very profitable businesses.

You seem quite anti-american and anti-irish having observed your comments and remarks.

There is nothing in any of my comments that is anti-American or Anti-Irish.

I note that your hostility is vented at the FAA

I haven't expressed any hostility towards the FAA.

Do you also not like Canadians or Aussies coming in or is it just FAA tickect holders???

I don't care who comes in, as long as there is reciprocity and as long as locals are used first.

I dont belive that anyone with the required experiance is being passed up for a forgeiner.

Page 2, post two. And my friend.

there are no real cadetships anymore and that companies dont want to pay for training, they are only taking the guys who are experienced and ready to go.

Yeah, apart from Easyjet... and BA... and flybe... the list goes on...

Now for the NYC clown...

There seems to be an exiled EU pilot living and flying in the South Pacific who can’t seem to grasp the concept of the old supply and demand concept… in other words if there are no supplies around the corner, you need to look elsewhere.

Ah yes but there are supplies around the corner, as you have already been told by myself and others. And I see that you still can't grasp what this is all about, but then you wouldn't, would you? You simply cannot bring yourself to address the two main points of the argument. Because, of course, you have no answer.

He is under the delusion that the more you pay for your training the more entitled you are to a job in Europe.

... except, of course, that I never said anything of the sort, and that has never been my argument. But as you can't respond to the argument, you just invent a new one. Obfuscation is your only weapon, which comes as no surprise at all. I think it is pretty clear who the real moron is here.

BTW I think JAA schools in the US are an excellent idea.

corklad

20th Jul 2006, 17:47

There is nothing in any of my comments that is anti-American or Anti-Irish.

Yeah right, Im not sure anyone who has read your posts would agree with that one. :}

I don't care who comes in, as long as there is reciprocity and as long as locals are used first.

there are examples in many countries of reciprocity if you care to look hard enough.

Yeah, apart from Easyjet... and BA... and flybe...

I said there were very few companies offering cadetships, not that they were non-existant. However, even you would have to agree they are VERY VERY difficult to get.

I think for the sake of maturity, because we are not going to agree about this topic, that we should all just agree to dis-agree and move on to the next topic.

MOR

21st Jul 2006, 00:14

Yeah right, Im not sure anyone who has read your posts would agree with that one.

There either is or there isn't. Which is it?

there are examples in many countries of reciprocity if you care to look hard enough.

Not between the US and Ireland. Or the US and anybody else, for that matter. It doesn't matter how hard you look.

I think for the sake of maturity, because we are not going to agree about this topic, that we should all just agree to dis-agree and move on to the next topic.

For the sake of maturity? Maturity is somehow threatened by this discussion? Well, whatever. If you don't reply, I shall assume you have moved on... :*

corklad

21st Jul 2006, 01:35

Jez MOR you love to argue dont you :ugh:

Ok, so the thrust of your argument is that you dont want qualified current US crews flying irish registered aircraft because they could POSSIBLE be taking jobs from people in other european countries. Is that correct? Isnt that assuming that said possible EU candidates will pass an interview..sim check..etc etc. As you mentioned the BAe 146 isnt exactly an aircraft that everyone is typed and current on...everybody is getting 737 or 320 types. So could you at least admit it may be hard to find people who are curent, speak english fluently and are ready to go ASAP???

Second, honestly know, you dont think you have anything against americans??? If I were a neutral observer I wouldnt think so...but i could be wrong. To get a working permit isnt that easy either. ireland has made it quite tough now for forgeiners to get full working permits if they arent EU citizens.

would you object to me...an Irish and british citizen working with a non-JAA license too???

MOR

21st Jul 2006, 04:29

corklad

Yeah I do enjoy a good argument... probably learned that in some of the pubs around Donegal that I used to frequent!

Ok, so the thrust of your argument is that you dont want qualified current US crews flying irish registered aircraft because they could POSSIBLE be taking jobs from people in other european countries. Is that correct? Isnt that assuming that said possible EU candidates will pass an interview..sim check..etc etc.

Pretty much, yes. In the case of my friend, he is typed with about 3500 hours on the 146 and a training qualification as well. Not sure about the chap on page 2 of this thread, but he sounds experienced on the 146 too. Both are being passed up in favour of American Mesaba pilots... or so the agencies are saying. It makes sense when you think about it, if Cityjet were committed to taking local people first, these two guys would have been hired immediately - there simply aren't that many 146/RJ rated pilots left in Europe.

So could you at least admit it may be hard to find people who are curent, speak english fluently and are ready to go ASAP???

I absolutely agree. All I am saying is hire the locals first. If Cityjet need to make up numbers after all the locals have been soaked up (subject to the usual checks and so forth), I don't care where they come from. The only other thing I am saying, is that if you are going to open up the employment market to foreign licence holders, there should be a reciprocal agreement.

Second, honestly know, you dont think you have anything against americans???

Not at all. I have lived in the US - Illinois, California and Upstate New York - and loved the place and the people. I often go back there for visits, and have many good friends there. This isn't (and has never been) about the US - they aren't doing anything wrong. Nor are the Mesaba pilots - there is nothing wrong with taking a perfectly legal opportunity that is placed in front of you. I would be the first one to buy a Mesaba pilot a beer in Dublin or Paris - it isn't their fault. My objection is solely with the IAA and Cityjet.

would you object to me...an Irish and british citizen working with a non-JAA license too???

Not at all, because I don't think the licence matters. As a Kiwi, I had to do the NZ licences, and when I travelled to Europe, I had to do everything again - except morse, they gave me that one! Took me a year and £60,000 to re-qualify.

My view is that there should be one international pilots licence, and that countries shouldn't be able to restrict the terms of that licence, as for example the French do.

What does matter is that each nation should be able to protect the interests of both their nationals and their wider community, and that it shouldn't be made easy for airlines to hire foreign pilots for economic reasons. America is the most protectionist country in the world when it comes to allowing pilots to work there permanently - until they open their borders, Ireland should maintain a similar policy. Looking after your own should always be paramount, it is what governments are elected for.

If you think about it, this current situation may be good for you if you want to return to Ireland, but it is going to kill the chances of many of your less experienced countrymen, who will now have their career progression halted until all the expats have left. It might be good for you, but if you were in their shoes, I'm sure that you would be spitting nails.

corklad

21st Jul 2006, 05:30

Hey MOR, you are finally talking with a cool head and not sounding so unreasonable...you may even be a decent bloke after all :O sorry couldnt resisit.

Ok now that you have laid your objections out in a better more straight forward manner I can appreciate what you are saying. However, while I sympathise with your friends situation you know you cant wait around in this business for a job to come to you. you have to make it happen. easier said than done i know. It sucked you had to fork out all that money to re-train for a JAA license and good luck to people who are in a position to do so. If money wasnt a problem for me then I would have probably done it too but I freely admit I couldnt afford it after i completed my training. it's not just the exams but the flying afterwards, the mcc, and possible type rating and the amount of bloody time it takes. Hell, its damn expensive if you are starting from scratch, then to do it all over again...sorry thats too much to expect of anyone in my opinion!!!

I do not like the JAA system because even though its supposed to be EU wide it sooo is not. If you take your Irish or British JAA ticket to france...you will not get a job. I think the french are way more proctionist than the americans! Also its very hard or next to impossible for irish and british pilots to get jobs in other european countries unless you speak their native language fluently...and thats just a convenient way of putting up hurdles. Yet students from said EU nations come to UK or Ireland and we let them in. If anything we adhere to the rules and spirit of the JAA more than most other nations in Europe.

the other thing I think you are forgetting is that Ireland has only 3 million people. With a tiny percentage of pilots. While we are in the EU we are on the edge of europe and are an english speaking nation. I believe that what the IAA does makes sense in these situations. How many local blokes will be trained on the 146...practically none! They are all off to get a type on a 737 or 320, but thats a different thread topic. You are talking about one or two exceptions, who may be available as opposed to blokes who can start right away. and why should ireland hire people from say france if they dont return the favour?? america maybe proctionist but, once you are in the system you do get a very fair shot. I dont think the same can be said of most EU nations.

when you are running a small airline company you cannot afford to wait for a yr to train kids up to fly your planes. you still have bills to pay to keep the whole show going. Plus from my understanding, the US guys coming over are not fresh faced F/O's, they are experienced captains. its unfortunate for your friend, but perhaps he can look at other options...with those hrs i find it hard to believe in the current climate that he cant find work somewhere. hell, aer arann are looking guys with 500 hrs and 50 multi.

there really isnt any need for an ICAO license, though it would make things soo much easier. under the old exam system that the caa or iaa used to do, all that was required was an air law exam and a checkride if you had X amount of hrs. Im pretty sure if one goes from NZ to AUS they dont have to do 14 exams and do training from scratch and a new MCC and a new type do they?:bored: nor should they, they are both ICAO countries :ok: .

The JAA system, I truely believed was written in collaboration with certain european schools to stop kids going to train in the states or canada and south africa and being able to convert at a later stage. lots of people in ireland choose the forgein route because the aviation facilities in ireland at the time were ziltch (some say it hasnt improved much) and cost a fortune. I knew of one bloke who took a yr to get his ppl cause the weather was so crap. plus before the modular route came about all there was in the UK was oxford or cabair, and those damn places cost a fortune. They had the most to gain under the new regs because there was now a deterrent to train abroad. that is a protection racket in the extreme, when you dont give people the choice to choose where they can fly at a top ICAO standard country then you are employing mafia tactics. well thats how i see it at least.

MOR

21st Jul 2006, 06:38

Hell, its damn expensive if you are starting from scratch, then to do it all over again...sorry thats too much to expect of anyone in my opinion!!!

It also depends WHEN you do it... I did my UK (as it was then) licence in 1988. At the time, the airlines were so short of crews that one even offered to pay for my GFT's and Multi Instrument Rating... how could one refuse... :)

If you take your Irish or British JAA ticket to france...you will not get a job.

Well, not quite true... I know a few Brits in Air France, and of course Cityjet pilots are effectively working for Air France too. I used to work for Sabena on a validation of a UK licence. I take your point though, when it comes to JAA, the Brits are regarded as the suckers of Europe.

You are talking about one or two exceptions, who may be available as opposed to blokes who can start right away.

The people I am talking about are available immediately, as opposed to having to emigrate from the US... but more to the point, why should there be any exceptions at all? My friend could probably find work elsewhere, but only if he buys a type rating... surely you can't approve of him having to do that?

Im pretty sure if one goes from NZ to AUS they dont have to do 14 exams and do training from scratch and a new MCC and a new type do they?

NZ and AU have an agreement called the Trans Tasman Mutual Recognition Agreement, or TTMRA, under which we recognise each others' licences (with a law exam). However, interestingly the Aussies will recognise any ICAO licence, current or not, which doesn't happen in NZ. We don't do MCC (yet).

plus before the modular route came about all there was in the UK was oxford or cabair, and those damn places cost a fortune.

Oh, come now... what about places like Leavesden, EAA at Fairoaks, Bristol Flight Centre, all the schools at places like Perth and Prestwick and Humberside and Southend? I did mine at EAA, no problems and pretty quick too. In the late '80s there were dozens of schools doing CPL/IRs.

And then there are the other JAA schools operating in Spain and the south of France... no wx problems there.

Anyway it's an interesting topic. Pity I'm not over there at the moment, it would be good to get together and discuss it over an ale or two!

haughtney1

21st Jul 2006, 08:36

OR 3 or 4 or 6 or 8 (notice how the multiplication gets worse as the numbers get higher;) )

corklad

21st Jul 2006, 15:39

The aussie/nz recognition process sounds identical to what i did in canada. Thats the it should be everwhere. Before I went to the states the IAA did the same thing with south african licenses. when my mate came back from south africa we swaped like for like. with the faa, at the time, i think all you needed 700 hrs on your multi cpl ir and it was a checkride and a law exam. I take the point about the schools in the uk but you forget, I lived in ireland. those school were more expensive (pound sterling) than the two that were in ireland, and took just as long to complete your training. If people were coming back from eastern michigan or embrey riddle after 18 months with all their ratings and close to 1500hrs and johnny down the road was paying twice as much and taking 3 times as long...welll which route would you choose? It would be great if companies brought back the cadeit schemes (open to all) and trained people from scratch but I have long given up hoping for that to happen. Of course to pay for said training they would have to cut costs somewhere, that would either mean less planes which in turn means pilots loose their jobs, or slashing pilot wages like in the states. I actually did pay for my type rating, i had something lines up though so i was lucky. Basically I was offered the job if i got the bare type rating. It was still a gamble but so is life. a secure job today is a job lost tomorrow. just look at companies through time PAN AM, TWA, DANAIR, GILAIR, JET MAGIC the list goes on and on.
The airline industry is cut throat, as is recruitment. There is a lot of money made on wannabes, which is why i believe the JAA system is the way it is now. The old national exams worked perfectly fine...why did anyone need to mess with them???

mutuallyassured3

22nd Jul 2006, 11:38

so quick question.... can expats, lets say americans, just come over here, the UK, and work, lets say for Ryanair, do they need a work permit?
is it easy or not. Having read the whole thread, which is an effort, I agree wholeheartedly with MOR, the business of the US 146 drivers coming over is a scandal, in an increasingly confusing industry.

OneWorld22

22nd Jul 2006, 15:33

Ah yes but there are supplies around the corner, as you have already been told by myself and others.

Sorry to butt in...

But that is complete arse. There are NO supplies around the corner. That is a fact. There are 146/AvroRJ operators in the UK, Germany and Belgium who are screaming for crews and they cannot get them. All airlines have been advertising and going to any agency in Europe and beyond to try and get crews and there is nothing.

There is a serious shortage in the EU of qualified crews on many aircraft types. Try and find some qualified MD80 Capts and F/O's for instance.

This is all fact gentleman.

haughtney1

22nd Jul 2006, 15:39

There is a serious shortage in the EU of qualified crews on many aircraft types. Try and find some qualified MD80 Capts and F/O's for instance.

This is all fact gentleman.

Jolly, perhaps you could qualify that statement?

Does this shortage exist because there REALLY aren't any qualified crews out there?
Or does it exist because the packages that are on offer (from the agencies or interested airlines) are not commensurate with what the qualified and type experienced MD80/RJ/146 drivers currently enjoy?

You seem to be adamant...perhaps you could clear this up?

:ok:

OneWorld22

22nd Jul 2006, 16:02

Sorry to dissapoint you, but is indeed fact. We are almost into just name the price territory at this stage.....

Some of you seem to think this is all some big conspiracy with an army of qualified crews hiding around the corner but who won't go because the salaries etc are being delibrately kept low...

Wake up. It's real simple, there is a lack of qualified JAR pilots.

But please guys, keep up the pretence and conspiracy theroies, it's kind of amusing!! :p

haughtney1

22nd Jul 2006, 16:22

Sorry to disappoint you, but is indeed fact. We are almost into just name the price territory at this stage.....

Perhaps Jolly I wasn't clear with my question:ok: I asked you to qualify your statement, I didn't ask to follow up with a sweeping generalization.

My personal contacts tell me otherwise regarding MD80's (of the SAS variety) several of them made inquiries regarding various MD80-83 contracts offered throughout JAR land on the basis of what was their impending redundancy, to a man they turned them down due to poor packages.
I don't believe your comment of "name your price" carries the weight you seem to be portraying:=

Wake up. It's real simple, there is a lack of qualified JAR pilots

Couldn't agree more, however I would suggest that it is more correct to say that there is a "shortage" of experienced JAR pilots at the right price.

Some of you seem to think this is all some big conspiracy with an army of qualified crews hiding around the corner but who won't go because the salaries etc are being deliberately kept low...

So Jolly you expect us to take at face value agencies can/will negotiate competitive packages for aircrew's without thought to their bottom line..even if it is to their own detriment? Sorry but thats a crock:hmm: (you and I both know that agencies are self serving, they exist for profit, not to employ crews at high salary levels)

Finally I don't believe for a second that there are crews hiding around the corner, I do however have enough of an understanding of basic supply and demand to know that if you don't pay the going rate..you don't get:ok: . To suggest otherwise Jolly is either misleading, or more likely better able to stir up the thread:p

OneWorld22

22nd Jul 2006, 16:34

haughtney1, would you ever consider that there are airlines that pay salaries far above the market rate?

And going on from that, if there are JAR crews who refuse to take JAR positions on offer are airlines then justified in looking abroad for crews of their CAA allows them?

Serious question, this goes to the root of all labor relations in all sectors.

haughtney1

22nd Jul 2006, 17:13

haughtney1, would you ever consider that there are airlines that pay salaries far above the market rate?

Jolly by definition..to get a median..you require upper and lower limits..so yeah I would. However thats my point..the markets sets the level, how can agencies and contract employers then whinge about the outcome? after all they tend to be first ones to benefit when an oversupply exists.

And going on from that, if there are JAR crews who refuse to take JAR positions on offer are airlines then justified in looking abroad for crews of their CAA allows them?

Thats the 64 million $ question, I for one subscribe to the viewpoint that the levels that some airlines/agencies are prepared to and believe they can get away with paying, falls far short of what is competitive:ok:
There are more than a dozen examples that I can think of off the top of my head where agencies have tried to circumvent existing labour laws/agreements (and at least 7 of those were Irish agencies) to reduce costs, and increase their own profits...so there has to be a regulatory framework with checks and balances.
The specifics of this thread have been done to death, the issues however cannot be overstated....if agencies/airlines are allowed to influence the regulatory authorities unduly, then IMHO its the thin end of the wedge:uhoh:
The evidence would suggest that with the IAA..this is already the case.

VANWILDER

24th Jul 2006, 00:56

BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA:ugh:
The reason EKKA is because if the tables where turned theres the same chance of me getting a job in the states as there is of angles coming out of my arse and playing me a jig....!:E

Tooloose

24th Jul 2006, 05:30

I suppose they'd be right angles. Or maybe (a)cute ones.

haughtney1

24th Jul 2006, 23:00

Not the point Ekka, whats good enough for the goose oughta be good enough for the gander:=
Its called a two way street, not a one way bypass:= :=

groan

26th Jul 2006, 15:42

Surely a lack of suitably qualified pilots in Europe allows for Pilots from elsewhere to be 'imported' same as anywhere else in the world for jobs that can't be filled, first look locally and then advertise internationally etc..

There should be no argument, There are currently 3 agencies AND WX trying to fill these positions, they are not looking in the US for the fun of it.. they are looking there because they cannot get European BAe146/AvroRJ pilots. Supply and demand, simple.

(Edited for spelling)

haughtney1

26th Jul 2006, 15:49

Surely a lack of suitably qualified pilots in Europe allows for Pilots from elsewhere to be 'imported' same as anywhere else in the world for jobs that can't be filled, look locally and then advertise internationally etc..

No argumentfrom me, except to say Groan,...you know for certain there is a shortage??

they are not looking in the US for the sake of it.. they are looking there because they cannot get European BAe146/AvroRJ pilots. Supply and demand, simple.

Not simple....demand artificially exceeding supply based on false economics:=
i.e. trying to attract EU candidates at a lower than EU market rate. Now they are looking offshore because THEY DONT WANT TOO PAY the market rates:ok:

Now that is simple;)

groan

26th Jul 2006, 15:58

Hi,

I do happen to know that there is a shortage of BAe146 rated drivers, according to a friend of mine in the 'agency' they can't find Europeans for love nor money.. :rolleyes:

I don't think the salaries are too bad.. i.e. for what for instance a BAe146 Skipper would receive elsewhere in Europe... I would agree normally about demand artificially exceeding supply, but not in this case!

Just my two cents though!

JW411

26th Jul 2006, 16:24

Just to be flippant, is it not sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander?

OneWorld22

26th Jul 2006, 17:39

haughtney1,

I called an old colleague of mine now working with Cityjet and he told me what the salaries are on offer. They are market rate salaries for Europe or slightly above in fact. They are at B737NG level for JAR crews. plus you get accomodation and transport thrown in???

Hardly bottom of the barrel stuff.

What you're saying on this thread is quite simply false I can now see. Why spread BS like this around? Why not simple accept that there is a shortage of JAR qualified 146 crews? All 146 operators in Europe are looking for crews, FlyBE, TNT...... Are you trying to tell us all here that there are in fact qualified crews and they are in fact sitting at home scratching their asses and would prefer to be unemployed then work for these "low salaries"?

Come on now haughtney1!! People ain't stoopid! :=

groan

26th Jul 2006, 19:01

I agree oneworld

mutuallyassured3

31st Jul 2006, 15:16

mutuallyassured3

31st Jul 2006, 23:16

come on there must be us citizens working at ryanair illegally......without work permits

groan

1st Aug 2006, 08:31

^^^^

Ah come on, have a bit of cop on, there are little or NO BAe146 crews available in Europe. What are they supposed to do? ''Ahh sure, we'll shut down the airline'' Same as there are Doctors and Nurses of all nationalities filling the corridors of Irish hospitals, they are there because there is a LACK OF SUITABLY QUALIFIED PEOPLE. :ugh: :mad: :yuk:

Do you not think they would rather have European crew members where they didn't have to go through the expense of work permits, tickets home blah blah blah?

Raw Data

1st Aug 2006, 09:40

Well I must just wade in here and say that I agree wholeheartedly with MOR, although not for the same reasons. I am more concerned with the precedents that are being set.

Also, there is some complete bollocks being put about here. I am still pretty close to the 146 scene, and I can tell you that none of the UK 146 operators are hiring. flybe took a few short-term contract guys to fill a hole, but there is no 146 recruitment there and there hasn't been since last year. A quick call to Flightline and Titan reveals that they aren't hiring either. That just leaves BA loco, and I seriously doubt that they are hiring for the 146.

I don't think that Europe is awash with 146 crews either, but I do know a number of guys who are rated and who have been rejected by Cityjet. I also know, from a contact I have in Cityjet, that they have made a couple of trips to the US to brief and prepare a "significant number" of US-licensed recruits. I don't know the actual number, but the inference is about 40.

haughtney1

1st Aug 2006, 09:50

What you're saying on this thread is quite simply false I can now see. Why spread BS like this around? Why not simple accept that there is a shortage of JAR qualified 146 crews? All 146 operators in Europe are looking for crews, FlyBE, TNT...... Are you trying to tell us all here that there are in fact qualified crews and they are in fact sitting at home scratching their asses and would prefer to be unemployed then work for these "low salaries"?

No Im not spreading falsehoods...Cityjet are looking to do this on the cheap, pure and simple (I know it, you know it..and any person thats had more than a little to do with Cityjet can deduce whats going on). All Im saying is that this is wrong..its good business..but it rides roughshot over the JAR guys out there.

With regards to your recruiting companies..i.e. sooo many 146 jobs about causing a shortage, read the previous post, it sums it up rather nicely:hmm:

OneWorld22

1st Aug 2006, 16:55

Sorry Raw Data, I am pretty sure I'm closer to the 146 scene then yourself and you're the one spouting the bollocks so.....

Saturn

1st Aug 2006, 18:03

I just flew with a guy from Cityjet and he said it was a horrible place to work. Treatment of the cews etc... I think the U.S. guys won't put up with what he was telling me for too long or the managament won't put up with the very unionized pilot's of Mesaba. They have been through enough crap and won't take any BS for one minute. So I would not worry about too many Gwylos hanging around for too long especially with the money at Ryanair. If you are going to work in Europe and for crap conditions why not work for Ryanair. Seems to me the jobs the American's are taking are the ones nobody wants so what's the problem??? Hey what do I know anyway.:ugh:

Spyro1

1st Aug 2006, 19:06

Just a question about Cityjet, if they are searching Pilots everywhere by another way, why are they still interviewing EU pilots by there own......

I was called for interview during the mid July for a pilot position and am waiting for the answer.........

Raw Data

1st Aug 2006, 22:47

OneWorld22

The Irish scene, maybe. Fact is that the others aren't hiring, and I got that from the horses mouth.

Perhaps you would like to indicate who is hiring? And why they would lie over the phone?

Raw Data

7th Aug 2006, 01:33

... and to all those who deny that Cityjet are taking on a bunch of US pilots - have a read of this thread...

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=235735

captjns

7th Aug 2006, 11:25

... and to all those who deny that Cityjet are taking on a bunch of US pilots - have a read of this thread...

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=235735

No one has ever denied that Cityjet has offered US pilots to fly their ‘146s. Not all Mesaba pilots offered positions are jumping at the chance to come to Europe to fly as it does not fit in with their long term goals.

Pilots in the US are tired of being treated like merde, pardon the pun. Do you honestly think that being abused in a foreign country makes any job any better?:confused:

Once Cityjet has exhausted their list of current qualified pilots who can qualify for an OCC, then they will search for the next tier of pilots to fly for them.

Raw Data

7th Aug 2006, 11:51

captnjs

Not to belabour the point, but according to you:

No one is going to uproot themselves, let alone their families to come to fly for Cityjet to experience the same treatment.

so far there are no bites from the Mesaba group coming over to Europe... Like I said pilots are not going to go from one low paying job to another one.

Checked with the Mesaba group... no takers.

While the Mesaba jets maybe going to Europe, the pilots are going on to bigger and better in the US or Emirates for that matter.

hmmm.... seems as though MOR was a lot closer to the truth after all...

captjns

7th Aug 2006, 22:51

captnjs
hmmm.... seems as though MOR was a lot closer to the truth after all...

Actions speak louder than words my friend. And no Henny Penny the sky is not falling... yet.

Raw Data

7th Aug 2006, 22:59

And what actions would they be?

Riker

8th Aug 2006, 02:24

Is there a specific contract being offered the Yanks and for how long? For example, is it a 2 year contract with recurrent training (if you already have Avro experience)? I can see why Yank pilot would want to come over and spend 2 years (or more) flying around Europe. The US airline industry is in shambles and it is difficult to get on with legacy carriers there that are in bankruptcy...

Flying in Europe for a few years would probably be seen as a vacation to those guys.

fxbat

8th Aug 2006, 02:24

I work for the company in Miami, and this doesn’t make me all hot and bothered. We work well with Excel / Storm and hopefully it will continue for many more years.
Position:
B737NG Captain UK & MIAMI
Experience:
Must be current on the 737NG
Details:
An exciting opportunity which inolves working 6 months in Miami and 6 months during the summer in the UK
The successful applicant can expect to receive:
A Competitive Salary
Bupa Medical cover
A Generous Expense and Accommodation allowance
Interested applicants must have the following minimum requirements:
10,000 hours total time
1500 737NG hours PIC
FAA Licence AND JAA licence with 737NG type ratings
Class one Medical
Eligibility to work in the EU and the USA

Riker

8th Aug 2006, 02:27