Polar to Fire all the FE's!

[WhaleDriver]

I just heard about the firing of all but four of the Flight Engineers at Polar. This action is being taken under contract section 19 , also known as "Section 19 Action". Section 19 is "Discipline and Discharge". On what grounds are they using this section against the FE's?

This stinks, because as a result, they will have no recall rights after the merger of Polar and Atlas. If they found work for a parked classic after the merger, they'd have to hire off the street? Do they save any money be firing them? Other than the obvious, what's wrong with just furloughing with recall rights.

I bet the court costs are gonna be huge.

[mercpc9]

I just heard about the firing of all but four of the Flight Engineers at Polar. This action is being taken under contract section 19 , also known as "Section 19 Action". Section 19 is "Discipline and Discharge". On what grounds are they using this section against the FE's?

This stinks, because as a result, they will have no recall rights after the merger of Polar and Atlas. If they found work for a parked classic after the merger, they'd have to hire off the street? Do they save any money be firing them? Other than the obvious, what's wrong with just furloughing with recall rights.

I bet the court costs are gonna be huge.
I guess your crack MEC and Robin Hair (Neg Committee Chair) didn't tell you that they rejected a deal with Cato that would have furloughed rather than fired the engineers. I don't know the full details of the deal and the drawbacks, but I am aware of it through ALPA National.

Maybe you should be asking them some pointed questions. Try to do it in front of someone that can verify what they are saying though.

[Heilhaavir]

I guess your crack MEC and Robin Hair (Neg Committee Chair) didn't tell you that they rejected a deal with Cato that would have furloughed rather than fired the engineers. I don't know the full details of the deal and the drawbacks, but I am aware of it through ALPA National.

Maybe you should be asking them some pointed questions. Try to do it in front of someone that can verify what they are saying though.


Merc, I think for once they were told the truth by the MEC. The FEs decided not to take the furlough and it makes sense, they will never come back. Might as well try to fight for severence pay, whatever it is, better than going away with nothing. And if they get NOTHING then they will be in the same position as if they had taken the furlough, out for good... Can't blame them for that.

The good side of what is happening to them right now though is that there are quite a few openings for them. A few have already found jobs and many have interviews coming up. I don't know if there will be as many openings left for FEs when AAWH decides to park the remaining classics... In a way it might be a blessing. Time will tell... (BTW, 2 of my Atlas buds have already sent me their CVs to try to beat the rush)

[Earl]

In the USA if you are laid off then then you elgible for Un-employment insurance.
But if Fired then this according to my sources this may hurt you.
Sad to hear this, hope all of you find work soon.
Earl

[mercpc9]

Merc, I think for once they were told the truth by the MEC. The FEs decided not to take the furlough and it makes sense, they will never come back. Might as well try to fight for severence pay, whatever it is, better than going away with nothing. And if they get NOTHING then they will be in the same position as if they had taken the furlough, out for good... Can't blame them for that.

The good side of what is happening to them right now though is that there are quite a few openings for them. A few have already found jobs and many have interviews coming up. I don't know if there will be as many openings left for FEs when AAWH decides to park the remaining classics... In a way it might be a blessing. Time will tell... (BTW, 2 of my Atlas buds have already sent me their CVs to try to beat the rush)
Considering the number of times I have been furloughed, being the first one out gives you the opportunity of being senior at the next operation.

Having been in communication with a few other operations, they are not providing an upgrade in quality of life or compensation at this point for FE's if you enjoy living in the states.

[Heilhaavir]

Considering the number of times I have been furloughed, being the first one out gives you the opportunity of being senior at the next operation.

Having been in communication with a few other operations, they are not providing an upgrade in quality of life or compensation at this point for FE's if you enjoy living in the states.

Exactly my point, probably a blessing for them that all this happens while coincidentally there is a demand for current qualified PFEs right now :ok: Will these jobs be available when the second wave of parking Classics happen @ AAWH? Who knows....

While your second point is correct, in this situation, a job at any of the outfits mentioned in my last post is still better than an unemployment check, don't you think?

[mercpc9]

Exactly my point, probably a blessing for them that all this happens while coincidentally there is a demand for current qualified PFEs right now :ok: Will these jobs be available when the second wave of parking Classics happen @ AAWH? Who knows....

While your second point is correct, in this situation, a job at any of the outfits mentioned in my last post is still better than an unemployment check, don't you think?
Yes I do.

Hopefully PFE's at both companies will take this as the writing on the wall about the future for PFE's in general and try to get some new licenses or if unable that to have plan "B" set up before the axe falls.

[WhaleDriver]

Yes I do.

Hopefully PFE's at both companies will take this as the writing on the wall about the future for PFE's in general and try to get some new licenses or if unable that to have plan "B" set up before the axe falls.

That's all well and good, but how about the FE that was going to use the furlough time to get everything finished up, and now finds that door slammed shut. I have no info that would indicate that anyone is in that position, but the firing seems a little harsh. Any idea what the advantage is vs furlough? What am I missing here?

Did the Polar MEC do a "this deal or nothng" act? Advice from the now upgrading FE MEC member may not have been the best? Yes, he is one of the four upgrading FE's.

[Earl]

To fire someone implies that the employee did something wrong.
Polar parked the airplanes, how can you fire someone that has nothing to do with managment or decisions made by them?
What kind of spin is this?

[Heilhaavir]

To fire someone implies that the employee did something wrong.
Polar parked the airplanes, how can you fire someone that has nothing to do with managment or decisions made by them?
What kind of spin is this?

I agree it's a real shame, but their reasoning (AAWH) is that since there are no more Classics (@ PO only for now) they don't need FEs anymore. The ones who have a pilot certificate may upgrade to the right seat. 4 of them passed the eval and will go through training.

From what I understand JC offered 2 choices, a furlough with a 5 year recall (they could have made it 10 years, I don't think they'll ever see their seat again anyhow) or termination with (anybody correct me if I'm wrong) a couple months severance pay???

Now, what is happening today should be NO surprise to anyone, this was basically announced years ago and many had the "that'll never happen, the Classic is a money maker" state of mind (and in a way they're right many other outfits are making money with the Classic, but that's another story :p ). So while a few anticipated this, got their pilot's ratings and upgraded to the right seat (and another handful to the left seat) the majority preferred the "wait & see" attitude. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "good for them", not at all, I'm just saying that it is NO surprise.

On the other hand, the PO FEs are pretty fortunate to be put on the street at a time where there is a demand for their experience at 4 or 5 outfits as we speak. It is no fun to start over BUT they have a good chance of finding a new home, not as good as they had it, yet still a paycheck.

Some Atlas FEs are becoming worried with good cause, the future @ AAWH doesn't look good for them either. A couple of friends there are starting to look around NOW and I think they're right. You want to look for a job while you have a job, especially when there is hiring on the equipment you're on.

Funny I have a feeling that FEs on both sides will end up in the same outfits fairly soon, but which side will be senior to whom when the last Classic at Atlas is parked? Not stirring the pot, just a thought for those who still believe in the "that'll never happen" theory ;)

[WhaleDriver]

I agree it's a real shame, but their reasoning (AAWH) is that since there are no more Classics (@ PO only for now) they don't need FEs anymore. The ones who have a pilot certificate may upgrade to the right seat. 4 of them passed the eval and will go through training.
From what I understand JC offered 2 choices, a furlough with a 5 year recall (they could have made it 10 years, I don't think they'll ever see their seat again anyhow) or termination with (anybody correct me if I'm wrong) a couple months severance pay???
Now, what is happening today should be NO surprise to anyone, this was basically announced years ago and many had the "that'll never happen, the Classic is a money maker" state of mind (and in a way they're right many other outfits are making money with the Classic, but that's another story :p ). So while a few anticipated this, got their pilot's ratings and upgraded to the right seat (and another handful to the left seat) the majority preferred the "wait & see" attitude. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "good for them", not at all, I'm just saying that it is NO surprise.
On the other hand, the PO FEs are pretty fortunate to be put on the street at a time where there is a demand for their experience at 4 or 5 outfits as we speak. It is no fun to start over BUT they have a good chance of finding a new home, not as good as they had it, yet still a paycheck.
Some Atlas FEs are becoming worried with good cause, the future @ AAWH doesn't look good for them either. A couple of friends there are starting to look around NOW and I think they're right. You want to look for a job while you have a job, especially when there is hiring on the equipment you're on.
Funny I have a feeling that FEs on both sides will end up in the same outfits fairly soon, but which side will be senior to whom when the last Classic at Atlas is parked? Not stirring the pot, just a thought for those who still believe in the "that'll never happen" theory ;)

Just who is hiring FE's right now? Focus isn't, in fact the boss FE is telling people their overmanned. Focus folks are sitting in hotels for days on end.

Connie isn't looking at FE's anymore.

Tradewinds has furloughed.

Cargo 360? Air Atlanta? Maybe Southern? Some of the Polar FE's came from there.

Just wondering?

[Earl]

Lots of 747 and L-1011 operators out there.
Thing these F/E's have to watch out for especially abroad is paying for your own
recurrent and then flying for the said company and then not get paid.
Sometimes not even a ticket back home.
Air atlanta Icelandic is a good bet, worked for them many years, they will pay you. on time. everytime.
But some of these other operators you may be going to the US consulate for a ticket back home if you cannot afford.
There are jobs abroad but be very careful of some of these companies.
Best of luck to the F/E's.

[Heilhaavir]

Just who is hiring FE's right now? Focus isn't, in fact the boss FE is telling people their overmanned. Focus folks are sitting in hotels for days on end.
Connie isn't looking at FE's anymore.
Tradewinds has furloughed.
Cargo 360? Air Atlanta? Maybe Southern? Some of the Polar FE's came from there.
Just wondering?

You might want to show up at the Aeroservice open house on the 22nd of this month, according to them the following outfits will be present and are hiring: SAI, Focus, Omni (DC10).

Albeit what you just wrote I just called a friend at TDX. He said they are expecting more airplanes and planning on hiring next month (any TDX guys & gals care to confirm?).

SAI just hired a class of 30, some of your PO buds are there, you might want to get in touch with them. According to them they are planning on running 2 more classes this year, how big? I don't know.

If you're ready to move around a little, AAI's not that bad.

You need me to type up your resume too? ;)

[Roadtrip]

I heard that Tradewinds crews are voting with their feet and leaving in droves for Southern Air, which sounds like not much of an improvement. I saw on the web that they had a hull loss last month with blown-up engine on takeoff. When you connect the dots you might wonder what's going on there.

[ship's power]

You have reasonably accurate info, Heilhaavir. The other option mentioned, only consisted of a meager 1 month's salary of severance pay (an insult to 12 yr FE's!). Neither option was accepted, so the company fired the engineers under what little obscure contractual language they could scrounge (section 19 - misbehavior /incompetence). They did this under the grounds that Polar's PFE's were incompetent to pass an FO check ride (the only seat remaining).

What a shame that the Atlas and Polar pilot groups could not get along over the years. They now need each other's solidarity more than ever. Sadly instead, both will inherit the mud that was created.

[GiantPilot]

I think it is a samrt move by the company. It is the only way to get the FE's out of the senority list at Polar. At Atlas the FEs are on a seperate list, where they belong....it is a dying profession. Wake up and smell the Jet-A!!!!!

:8

[TowerDog]

Albeit what you just wrote I just called a friend at TDX. He said they are expecting more airplanes and planning on hiring next month (any TDX guys & gals care to confirm?).


Yeah, TDX is interviewing as we speak.
Rumors says 30 crews.

Guys are walking out in droves for various reasons. Hopefully
managment will see the light and do something about the conditions and
compensation.
45% turnover right now, those who stay behind move up the list like a rocket.

[GiantPilot]

I hear the latest round of furlough letters have gone out at Polar.

:)

[742]

I hear the latest round of furlough letters have gone out at Polar.

:)

I don't know if you are a Polar pilot stirring the pot or a simply an idiot. In any case you are not representative of the Atlas pilots and FEs, everyone of which I fly with understands that what has happened to the Polar FEs is tragic.

[ship's power]

I think GiantPilot was referring to the furlough of more of Polar's junior -400 birdmen. . . . Polar seems to be shrinking, and Atlas is not far behind!

. . . . Watch as America's cargo airline's go the way of America's merchant marine . . .

[zerozero]

Slow down guys.

Polar GROUND crews suffered a "Reduction in Force". Announced last Friday. Nothing to do with flight crews.

That's a fact. Not a rumor.

[Fr8Dog]

Hey are you all ready for this? I hear from a very good source that Fred Smith and the U.S. Military are just finishing the first working transporter. Seems that Fred is going to have the first production unit installed in Memphis. Looks like this will be the end for all the freight carriers.

Can you say “beam me up Scotty”? :D

[Ignition Override]

Ship's Power: Good point.

Luckily, at least for now, Congress has voted down a bill or N.P.R. for more foreign ownership of US airlines.
This was being pushed by the White House.

One day, if the bill passes, a foreign mgmt. group might be able to "cherry pick" which labor provisions could apply to your pilot job, and from which countries, with blessing$ from the GOP. Four hours pay for a 2-day trip? Five days off-and one in a hotel room. If the younger pilots don't like it, they can leave the job. More will take their place.:cool:

It might be an interesting time for the younger pilots. Hopefully they will have other job skills after spending $30,000 or more for their basic ratings.

[ship's power]

Something in this industry has gotta give. . . . . Of note - down at the local airfield, a CFI had told me that they have noticed fewer upstarts of the younger career oriented airman type. . . . he had said that today's flight students seem to consist more of older empty nester's, who have always wanted to learn to fly but now have the time/money.

I recall jumpseating on AAL -JFK / LAX a few months ago. There was a young American Eagle pilot that was also riding, but on a pass. Before boarding, the Eagle pilot had exclaimed to me in excitement that he would soon be eligible for his dream - mainline AAL pilot employment. Later, after taking my jumpseat in the cockpit, the ship's Captain had exclaimed to me that he was disgusted with the degradation of his job and was anxiously awaiting retirement in four months. If it wasn't for his mortgage, he would have gladly retired earlier. . . . . I could only think of the irony of the young kid sitting twelve rows back, who could hardly wait to take a job that the Captain didn't even want anymore!

[Roadtrip]

That young Eagle pilot must have been hallucinating. There's 3000 furloughed AA pilots, with an airline that's getting rid of airplanes and cutting jobs. I hope he enjoys being a $25k a year RJ copilot for about the next 15 years.

[ship's power]

I stand corrected, Roadtrip. This narrative actually took place just days prior to 9/11, however the "jist" of the senario continues (or worse).