Congratulations Jetstar and the JPC

[Eagleman]

I woujld like to thank the JPC and Jetstar management for their continuing success in making JQ pilots the laughing stock of the industry.

JQ pilots now have to buy their OPS manuals.

CASA where are you?

I think the wrong Mr Turner has the nickname "schroo" in this country!

[drshmoo]

Surely your joking

[SOPS]

Is this for real????:confused:

[Capn Bloggs]

JQ pilots now have to buy their OPS manuals.

Good. I'll make a fortune.

[virgindriver]

I thought they got a free cd, don't they??

[flyingins]

Eagleman,
All Jetstar OPS manuals are issued in hard copy format free of charge. This has not changed.

JQ pilots have now been offered the chance to buy all 4 A320 FCOMs and the QRH for a very small amount indeed. No one HAS to buy them. It is a choice and either way all of these documents will continue to be issued to us (and updated) in electronic format by the company.

Perhaps do a little research before you start typing next time? Or you could apply to be an aviation journalist with a major network. Your credentials would suit that job perfectly.

[Big Jan]

Chickenboy
If you are going to try and take the piss out of someone at least try and get your info straight ! :zzz:

[speeeedy]

flyingins,

A disc is a small 10 cent piece of plastic, a manual is a binder filled with paper.

So the question is - are you being charged for your manuals???

[RENURPP]

Thats the problem isn't it, you guys see nothing wrong with having to pay a "SMALL" amount for manuals. An absolute joke. :rolleyes:

Do you have to pay a small amount for your uniforms,
Do you pay for your own ASIC, instrument renewal, surely the company shouldn't have to pay for an extra pilot to do line checks etc, EP's are there to save your lives so why shouldn't you subsidise them as well and how about DG's, surely thats a pilots responsibility.

I reckon it would be fair if you spent a little bit of time on your days off washing the jets, or working in the hangar.

[Ron & Edna Johns]

Are you guys for real?

If you want Company-provided operational information in hard-copy format you have to pay for it? The only free alternative is a CD?

I worry greatly about this ever-increasing push to have operational info provided electronically. Many people do not study as effectively when reading a screen as opposed to reading paper. The 4:3 format of the average screen conflicts with the normal page size/shape to start with, causing learning issues. You no longer have the manual "sitting on your desk" for you to work through and learn - now it's hidden as electronic stuff in your computer somewhere. It can be too difficult to just quickly look something up - you have to sit down and start up the computer rather than just grab the book off the shelf and flick through it.

Bugger all thought is given to the communication/learning issues - just to how much money can be saved. I really wonder if it's going to end in tears somewhere, one day....

And you have to pay for a hard copy alternative? Disgraceful, guys. For crying out loud - just say "no"!

[hoss]

flyingins you have me curious, how much is this 'very small amount'?

(a) $5 to $20
(b) $20 to $50
(c) $50 to $150
(d) $150 to $300

bummer, I cant do an 'all of the above' answer.
:)

[hoss]

and some other questions, is the document controlled, who who controls it and how often?

:)

[AnQrKa]

At least they get an option.

KA only issue CD Rom versions of FCOM (or on intranet) but a hard copy is short term loan only during training in a crappy plastic folder falling to bits.

Bravo to Jetstar for getting with the times. Hard copies are from a bygone era, electronic reading material is here to stay and saves the business a lot of money.

Its always the case, the employees at the encumbant cannot stand to see the LCC doing things differently. Learn from abroad fellah's, its the new boys on the block driving the innovation these days, not the flag carriers.

CATCH UP.

[fromwayback]

Interesting discussion. Company-provided operational information is provided free in hard copy. Aircraft manuals are provided on disk as a reference. These aircraft specific manuals ( Airbus ), in hard copy, will cost if wanted by the pilot and will not be controlled. A little like getting a hard copy of a generic flight manual for Eastern. These manuals, however also provide operational details for the aircraft they are in including Airbus recommended calls, emergency procedures, normal procedures etc.

Hey Hoss, are you married yet? I keep checking the mail box.

[Its the Pleats]

Looks like we're all getting at little carried away - unless of course this is a wind up?!

All the manuals INCLUDING the QRH and all 4 FCOMs are issued free of charge.

[Pete Conrad]

I heard it was a figure around the $180.00 mark, happy to stand corrected.

The JPC are renowned for successful negotiations, just look at the narrow body and wide body agreement they signed off. Basically there is no more negotiation on their behalf as to a new aircraft type, so the deal they signed off is binding forever or until they all sign AWA's. JPC can be saluted for that one can't they?

WAnQrKa, enlighten me, where is the innovation? in LCC's, that would be why BA got rid of GO for canibilising the flag carrier. Or why Jetstar Asia has had over a hundred million dollars pumped into it and it is still a failure. Or why Jetstar has lost 3.5 million dollars across the Tasman to Christchurch since December last year, great innovation there.

[RENURPP]

There is no innovation. Most companies have electronic copies available they just don't charge for the rest.

Its about as innovative as charging for endoresements an d earning crap money and working 24/7.
its the new boys on the block driving the innovation these days, not the flag carriers.

Some one needs to get out more often.

[Eagleman]

flyingins, thank you for your advice. I'll file it where the sun doesn't shine.

If, and if doesn't apply to JQ, the organisation was set up for electronic manuals, and if the disc was user friendly, it would be appropriate to have electronic manuals as the only reference source.

Until that time, manual amendents are required to be supplied by the company.

[Capn Bloggs]

AnQrKa,

I will never agree that electronic manuals are better than paper. Get with the way of the world? I'm not sure I want to do that given your outfit's safety record. I wonder how much that could be put down to electronic manuals. They may be cheap, but they're nasty.

[hoss]

fromwayback,

We still have 10 weeks to go, let them know in recruiting that I am available around mid October.

Cheers, :)

[RENURPP]

There is a place for electronic manuals!

If I carried every manual we have in my nav bag there would be no room for newspapers etc.

Whilst I prefer paper coppies to study from, I would love to see you and your manual wrting mates arrive in the 21st century and issue both. Jeeez it must be easy and cheap to issue an electronic copy to who ever wants one, starting with me.

[newsensation]

Just take the disk to work and print it out...... that will not cost much....:D

[cunninglinguist]

Sorry, I am easily confused :ugh:

Could a Jet* pilot please confirm that the OPs manuals are provided in print form, on paper, and presumably in a lovely Jet* binder, free of charge :confused:
and that the company is charging a nominal fee if you want the manuals in computer disc format, and if so............................

What the :mad: are these w@nkers on about :confused:

I carry all the manuals in my nav bag, on CD, but have found they are very difficult to read, especially in bad light or an emergency ;)

[Trevor the lover]

Hey CAPT BLOGGS,

What specifically do you mean by "considering the safety record of your outfit." Surely you are not criticising a perfect safety record. What accidents have KA had? None that I know of.

And mate having flown for "your outfit" for years I can tell you which one has the higher standard, and it ain't yours. The standard here is enormously high, the standard at your mob is at best, good. Whilst the large majority of the pilots I flew with in your outfit were great, there were far too many donkeys with no freakin idea for my liking.

But could you please just answer the question of the KA safety record.

Thanks

[Expanding]

Yes these losers/ JPC have agreed to pay $180 for FCOMs and QRH with no amendments.

But you get a CD from the company.

The laughing stock of Australian aviation.

[Capn Bloggs]

Trev,
Sorry. I was thinking of KE. I'm the Eor. My position on electronic manuals still stands though.
Renurp,
I'll work on it. There is a complete set in the ship's library, you know! And you only have to carry the newspaper under your arm from the standby desk, after all...:E
Crews having to pay ANY money for ops manuals (paper or CD) really is cheap. "Hey Admiral! I have an idea!".

Edit: I just remembered I have asked previously for our manuals to be provided on CD. No response from the bridge.

[SOPS]

so what is the real story?

[Trevor the lover]

Dear Cap'n Bloggs,

Thank you for your apology. Let me say that you at least were NOT one of the donkeys I was talking about that I flew with. Speaking of donkeys - how is the Admiral coping - still hanging in there?

Trev

[Capn Bloggs]

how is the Admiral coping - still hanging in there?

Yes. It's called friends in high places/on the high seas! :{

[QFinsider]

So in order to be compliant with the rules and to operate to a SOP you have to pay...Come on CASA this is just ridiculous

[DutchRoll]

If (and I concede there are mixed messages/facts/assumptions in some of these posts) JQ pilots had to fork out for their manuals, it seems to me to be highly unlikely that JQ would be complying with the intent of CASA regulations in respect of providing FCOM info to pilots.

Also, it's not as simple as just chucking the book onto a CDROM.

Unfortunately I know for a fact (from personal conversations with the people involved) that CASA are lagging way behind in clarifying the regulations and ensuring compliance in this area as we proceed into the electronic world, and at the current moment in time, they seem to have too many other things on their plate.

[cunninglinguist]

Thats alright, ignore me, see if I care :{

If Jet* provide a copy of the manual in print form and Pilots decide they need one in another format, what is the big deal of charging for the other :confused:
This thread was started on the premise that Jet* pilots had to pay for their ops manual, period, which turns out to be complete BS.

Big Trev, man I am hearin' ya :D ...............not sure I agree with the bit about Bloggsy tho ;) In any other outfit, the Admiral would be lucky to have a position cleaning an Ensign's boots.





( yes I am joking bloggs )

[epoxy]

why isn't jetstar charging pilots for jet a1? if you think about it, the pilots are benefitting by burning this fuel because they get to stay airborne and not crash. why not charge them for engine oil and hydraulic fluid while we're at it??

[sweetpollypurebred]

Hey, do they charge you blokes to take a piss?:rolleyes:

[Chris Higgins]

I'll give it a year and they'll be charging them a "small fee" for recurrent training.

[BAE146]

I think I'm going to stay in the Middle East a tad longer :*

[Chocks Away]

mmmm, probably better BAE
It's not a good package I hear, the long haul approaching. Pity.

[distracted cockroach]

Just so you know, the Air NZ A320 fleet (oops I mean Zeal 320) do not issue paper manuals. FComs, QRH etc all only on CD-Rom in PDF format.
Freedom (oops I mean Zeal320) pilots are currently persuing the company over the clause in their contract that says all company required documentation must be issued "in writing" to find out whether a CD is acceptable. It may come down to a legal opinion.
Some pilots are happy with CDs, others prefer paper. I fall into the latter category, so maybe I'm old fashioned. Funnily enough, Standards and Training pilots appear to get paper manuals, but maybe it's more important for them to know and learn and remember stuff!!
Apparently (and I stand to be corrected here) Airbus will cease producing manuals in paper format in 2010, going over to fully electronic. I suppose that includes in the flight deck too. Hope they come up with something a bit more interactive than PDF!
Of course, the company provides a computer for you to read your CD at home, plus an IT allowance for computer upkeep...yeah, right!!
I miss my bedtime reading of the QRH:{

[ShockWave]

No matter what you guys are paying for manuals, you will always be a laughing stock. You made sure of that when you negotiated your wide body contract and set back pay and work conditions for Proffessional pilots decades. Blooody narrow sighted guys!

[cunninglinguist]

I'm not going to start bashing any particular pilot group, but Shockwave could you just enlighten us all as to:

a) who started " paying for endorsements " ( jet/airline ) in Oz ?

b) who started flying similar a/c to the opposition for around 30% less ?

c) who started " paying for endorsements " whilst having been employed by the company they are with for up to 15 years ?

Whilst it could be argued that the above mentioned groups had their reasons I think you will find that Jetstar is not the answer to any of the above, and they are not the group with the worst jet pay and conditions in Oz, BTW.

[Lord Snot]

Since JetScar are issuing manuals on CD, I presume they also issue you with a laptop so you can read the things....

Or do you have to hold the CD up to the light???? :confused:


Prediction: By next month we should see a thread entitled:

Who's stealing the J* ships' libraries???

:D

[Pete Conrad]

Cunninglinguist, in answer to your questions

a) Impulse

b) Impulse

c) Impulse

[Transition Layer]

Touche' Pete Conrad...

[Pete Conrad]

Cunninglinguist, further;

The JPC voted and approved widebody addition to the Jetstar EBA has no passages referring the JPC and Jetstar back to the table for further negotiations..bring on AWA's fellas.

Now, the man who heads up JPC, where is he from?...Impulse.

[preset]

Smaller airlines like JQ are not the only airlines heading towards entirely electronic manuals, the bigger airlines are doing it as well. For what it's worth, I agree with the previous comments regarding paper manuals being more user friendly. Being able to flip through the paper manual not only allows me to absorb more info, occasionally while flipping, I come across something else of interest that gets mentally filed away :) I definitely do not get the same result using the electronic manuals. Although it's a pain having to do amendments, I find I note the changes more effectively when I'm doing them. Having them done electronically they generally don't get noted and before someone comments that the changes can be looked up on the computer, honestly how many pilots are actually going to take the time to do that ?

[ShockWave]

Thanks Pete for answering those questions, I must admit I had no idea.
All I know is what I've heard from afar and it all sounds so typically "GA", not Low Cost but just downright cheap and nasty.
I do know that there is currently a shortage for experienced Air Line Crews around the world (ignoring the US.).
And yet you blokes belived everything youre bosses told you and signed up for conditions at a fraction of your actual worth on the world market.
That is so "GA" it's scary. "please sir, let me fly your new aerplane, and you can pay me anything you want!"

Grow up guys!!! You are all highly trained proffessionals, who are worth much, much more than what you are prepared to accept. Aus Pilots have been renowned for their industrial relations ineptitude in the past and you guys are well on your way to out blundering the 89 ers.:ugh:

[hoss]

I'm not taking sides, but my answers to those three questions were the same as Pete Conrad and Transition Layer, Impulse.

[Woomera]

And really who cares...it is becoming common practice all over the world...lie with it.

I see no useful purpose for this thread given it started on a false premise and, as usual, degenerated into a Jetstar slangfest,

Click