View Full Version : Is this legal in European airspace?
An IFR (airways) flight.
P1 seat: FAA PPL, no IR, but legal to fly the plane under VFR. He will do all the flying. (Actually he is IMC Rated and can do everything required anyway but this is of no relevance especially if the flight is in Class A or outside the UK).
P2 seat: FAA IR, legal to fly the plane under VFR or IFR. Not an instructor.
The plane is N-reg.
P1 is renting the plane so understandably wishes to log the flight. He's working towards the FAA IR.
Q1: is it legal, in UK airspace?
Q2: can the P1 pilot log it and, if so, what as?
I know for sure it is legal in US airspace, and the PPL can log it as either actual or simulated instrument time (depending on whether the flight is in IMC, or under the hood).
I also know it is commonly done anyway, openly, on the G-reg scene (people go up "VFR" and rely on the presence of somebody else with an IR in the RH seat to enable them to fly an ILS, etc if they need it). Obviously it is legal if the P2 is a suitable rated (IR/IMCR) instructor.
wet wet wet
1st Jul 2006, 18:01
This sort of question keeps coming up. I think that the answer is simple. Assuming that we are talking about a spamcan type light single then it will be certified for single crew operation. That is (other than for instructional flights) there can only be one pilot logging time, everyone else on board is a passenger. So you need to decide who is the pilot and fly within the contraints of his licence / ratings.
What you can do is swap pilots mid flight so that for example a non instrument rated pilot could hand over control to his IR rated mate who is sitting in the other seat if the flight enters IMC. But at any one time there is only one pilot and you log the portion of the flight flown as PIC accordingly, the rest is unlogged.
I should have made it even clearer that there is no desire for the RH pilot (the one with the IR) to log anything whatsoever.
This isn't the standard question that keeps coming up, asking if both can log it.
I think it was recently established that it is legal to do something similar in VMC. The LH pilot can fly under the hood, while the RH pilot can be a safety pilot. Both can be plain PPLs. The LH pilot can log this as "simulated instrument time" and this will count towards the main FAA IR instrument time requirement.
foxmoth
1st Jul 2006, 19:47
As said only one can be the operating pilot and he neds to fly within the constraints of his own licence so technically he cannot fly in the Airway in UK airspace though he can hand over to his mate for this bit - in practice who flies and logs what is down to them, but is not strictly legal if the wrong guy does it.:hmm:
Mike Cross
1st Jul 2006, 21:50
Not an expert by any means but surely it's US law that applies here? Two US licensed pilots in a US registered airplane.
ICAO compliant in all respects and therefore entitled to exercise the privileges of their licenses in any ICAO contracting state?
Mike
Halfbaked_Boy
2nd Jul 2006, 01:29
Mike, that would seem the obvious reasoning at first, however Article 12 of ICAO, 'Applicability of air regulations', states - "An aircraft, regardless of its nationality, shall obey the regulations and operational procedures of the state in which it is flying."
Just my contribution,
Jack.
Longbow55
2nd Jul 2006, 03:22
He cannot enter controlled airspace here. I had the same issue, now if the right hand seat person would be PIC for the IFR flight, and on the flight plan then yes he can fly.
how they log that is up to them, the left seater can log all the time if he is sole manipulator, he sould also be under the hood, so the right seater has to be pilot in command/safety pilot.
Oh and yes both can log PIC in there book (weird on this but is allowed), Question for you, how will anyone know if the other person is qualifed or not?
I think halfbaked boy is right; it's same as required equipment carriage. Local regs override the aircraft nationality, and the requirements are potentially different for each national airspace that you happen to fly through, and that rule is probably broken every few seconds somewhere in Europe because not even Spock could remember all the national details for an arbitrary flight across Europe.
I thought (without checking) that the proposal would not be legal in UK airspace unless the RH was an IR rated instructor.
However, taking even the most pedantic practical view, the [il]legality of it would not crystallise until the moment the LH pilot makes that entry in his logbook, which he's unlikely to be doing until safely back on the ground.
bookworm
2nd Jul 2006, 12:19
Q1: is it legal, in UK airspace?
Q2: can the P1 pilot log it and, if so, what as?
The pilot who is appropriately rated for the conditions ("P2 seat pilot") must act as pilot-in-command for the flight. He should log it as such.
The other pilot ("P1 seat pilot") is not "acting as a member of the flight crew required by or under [the ANO] to be carried in an aircraft". I therefore cannot see a requirement for him to hold a flight-crew licence.
Part 61.51 allows pilot-in command time to be logged when a pilot
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated;
and instrument time when he
operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.
The "P1 seat pilot" should therefore log time accordingly, as required by the FAA.
I think it would be different if the chap in the RHS held a valid instructor rating. Otherwise, he's not qualified to give instruction and therefore the LHS chap has to fly on the ratings in his licence. If he has no valid IR for the aircraft he's flying, he can't fly it in Class A in the UK. RHS would have to be P1 for the Class A bit - and for any flying where LHS was not "rated".
Once you've decided who was legally entitled to be P1, you have decided who can log it.
Flying in "simulated IMC" (eg under the hood) while holding a valid IR (or IMC in the UK) is different. You just need a lookout in the RHS.
englishal
2nd Jul 2006, 21:29
I recall something about a non instrument rated pilot logging PIC in ACTUAL conditions.....I don't think it is possible as they are not rated to be there (for the same reasons a ME student cannot log PIC while training). If flying with an instructor, the time becomes dual in actual conditions, and if flying with a safety pilot, the time is not loggable in actual conditions. Under simulated conditions it is loggable as PIC.
I may be mistaken, but this is how it was explained to me once upon a time.Don't forget to log the safety pilots name in the logbook as this is a requirement of the FARs.
Under simulated conditions it is loggable as PIC.
Isn't this the background to the FAA rule that you can't take your IR checkride if it's actual IMC? You don't have an IR, so can't fly in IMC, and the examiner isn't your instructor - he's only your lookout while you "simulate" IMC.
As I said, I am in no doubt this is legal under FAA rules, in US airspace.
Flyin'Dutch'
3rd Jul 2006, 22:57
There is no thing as a P1 seat.
The PIC can sit in either front seat in a spamcan.
To fly in Class A airspace (UK Airways) you need an IR. No IR means no Class A flights.
To fly in Class A without an IR is illegal although there is no 'passport control' on entry.
So in short:
Q: Can you do it; A: yes you can.
Q: Is it legal; A: well yes as long as the chap in the LHS doesn't log it; after all he is not more or less controlled than 'George'
The Law and Regs on neither side of the pond will give in words of one syllable chapter and verse on every evantuality and situation that we can think up.
What matters is, if you drill the thing into something that shows, will you still looks squeaky?
:bored: