123.45 Abuse

[Pudnucker]

I'm sure many saw on the front of GASIL the stern words regarding use of 123.45 as a general chat frequency.

I do agree with what they are saying (and haven't even thought of doing this) but what I would add is - how typically short-sighted of the CAA/Radio Agency. There are good (safety) reasons to have plane to plane communications and to prevent abuse of a certain frequency, why not provide a general frequency rather than just b*llock those who do need to pass, say plane to plane info on a multi-ship fly out? These exist on maritime bands etc.

[niknak]

123.450 is allocated to several airfields, and isn't for the waffle, bull**** and blather that you quite frequently hear on it.

Whatever frequency may be allocated for "chat", if you fly above 2000ft on a fine summer day, you'd only have to listen in for a few minutes to appreciate the amount of breakthrough from other aircraft/ground stations many miles away.

IF it genuinely is a real safety issue, as you imply, then the information can be passed through any ATC unit or D & D.

[chevvron]

In the gliding fraternity, 129.975 is allocated as a 'local' frequency for A/G in the vicinity of a gliding site, but most glider pilots use it as a general chat frequency (air to air) too.

[QDMQDMQDM]

Of course aircraft sometimes have a need to talk to each other in the air and of course people will find ways to do it. Even if some people bollock on endlessly that doesn't remove the basic need. The CAA sticks its head in the sand and everyone carries on regardless.

Just don't use callsigns. Names are a much better idea. All in all, the system works.

QDM

[chevvron]

Interestingly us microlight pilots do have a frequency allocated for any 'microlight related' communications and no I'm not tellign you what it is!

[S-Works]

very close to the glider one actually.......... 129.825 but still not a general chat frequency. :)

[chevvron]

Idiot now everyone will use it.

[gasax]

In our neck of the woods 123.45 is a Bristow's COMPANY frequency. Needless to say there is a significant amount of shall we say 'non-business' related communications?

Type CAA - look what these naughty boys have been doing....

Touring in formation we usually have a fallback frequency (after the double and triple transmissions on the frequecy we are working.

To be blunt if the CAA are OK with companies have chat frequencies their arguments for the rest of us not havin them are pretty weak.

During the enforced change from 720 to 760 frequencies some enterprising soul reviewed the number of allocated frequencies and if memory serves came up with a number around 350. Given the upper airspace chaps have been forced into 8.33 spacing there is a huge amount of space on the spectrum at the moment.

The so-called 'safety frequency' is a start on the path to realism - but late and drudgingly as all CAA 'developments'.

I know Bristows hate the chat interruption on 'their' frequency but we should have ours - and then everyone would be OK.

[S-Works]

Idiot now everyone will use it.

Er well, when I listen in it seems everyone already does use it as an air to air chat frequency which is not what it was assigned for. It was assigned as a common frequency for use at microlight strips to announce intentions. Places like Sutton Meadows are one of the few that seem to use it as per its original intent.

But then as the majority of Microlight pilots do not have an RT licence I guess they must be immune from the rules....... ;)

[VP959]

I know a heck of a lot of microlight pilots, and most that I know have both RT operators licences and licences for their radios as well.

I would hazard a guess that a few may not, but given that the authorities had a clamp down on radio licensing on microlights a few years ago, I suspect that most are now actually legal.

Mind you, radio discipline amongst some microlighters can be pretty poor, a few minutes spent listening to 129.825 will show just how poor...................

VP

[egbt]

In the gliding fraternity, 129.975 is allocated as a 'local' frequency for A/G in the vicinity of a gliding site, but most glider pilots use it as a general chat frequency (air to air) too.

Yes and it can be a real pain when you are trying to talk to the site :(

[Sir George Cayley]

CAA issued an American stylee unicom freq called Safety Com for use at umanned airfields.

It's 12 er 9 er no ....

It's 921 no, no ......

It's 192 oh bugger!:mad:

It's 129.9945633 no ......

Just a minute - I'll get it in a mo - don't hassel me it's.......


129. no maybe it's 139 oh ........................


bollox :mad: 123.45 and don't use your reg:ok:



Sir George Cayley

[UV]

I cant resist it, what an example of posters demonstrating their inexperience,.....

The CAA, have they not, have indicated that they intend to prosecute people using 123.45 incorrectly.

Stop it................................

UV

[Sir George Cayley]

So the ironic nature of my post's whizzed past you eh UV?

The point is that by publishing a forgetable frequency and protecting the obvious one against all logical debate the CAA are inviting abuse.

Don't forget it was not that long ago they insisted on Manchester Approach and Tower freqs swapping 119.4 and 118.625 because the former interferred with a small Kentish strip. It cost Manch and its ATC provider £10,000 to change and inform industry.

Finally, the CAA do not prosecute for radio abuse. The Radiocommunications Agency do this.

Sir George Cayley

[Pudnucker]

IF it genuinely is a real safety issue, as you imply, then the information can be passed through any ATC unit or D & D.


I think if I had tried that on Saturday/Sunday while flying up to white waltham and back, the Farnborough controller would have shot himself....:eek:

[Rod1]

123.45 is used extensively in France. I assume the CAA have not allocated it to a location too far south?

Rod1

[chevvron]

It was complaints from France that led to the CAA ban.
There are, as Gasax says, are large number of VHF airband frequencies not used in the UK presumably because they are used in adjacent countries like France, Holland, Belgium etc. You probably don't realise, but DAP section of CAA have to reach international agreement before allocating any frequency for UK use.
There are also frequencies in the airband not in regular use for ATS purposes; not just Ops frequencies but for 'trials' use by people like Qinetiq.(eg 126.4; 118.750)

[nouseforaname]

I use 123.45 and will continue to use it. like Sir George, not stating my call sign!

[Pudnucker]

Interesting that there are similar views. I think what narks me off more than anything is that it seems that airliners, microlights, companies etc etc etc are allocated frequencies for their exclusive use (and often used for passing the same "Blather, Bull**** and Chitchat" that we're accused of passing) and as usual, the Radio Agency/CAA have buried their heads in the sand.

Interestingly, for those with the "Greater than Thou" attitude to this, I was stepped on by a couple of airliners yakking about the football results over the weekend. So AGAIN, we've been ignored and it seems AGAIN that others can get away with it while the authorities find it easy to pick on us!!

:ugh:

[Pudnucker]

By the way, ironically the airliners were French...................

[davidatter708]

At one point i tuned into 123.45 and there were 2 airline pilots talking about what affairs they were having quite funny to listen to. But why cant the CAA give the GA a channel to talk air to air on.
David

[chevvron]

You might ask why the BGA find it necessary to have 5 frequencies allocated for exclusive gliding use (3 of which are rarely used being reserved for competitions), plus some gliding sites (eg Lasham, Syerston) have their own a/g frequency in addition!

[IO540]

Has the CAA ever offered an explanation for not authorising an air to air frequency for GA?

[chrisN]

Chevvron, the 5 gliding channels have to be shared by all 80 gliding sites. It is not true that 3 are rarely used and mainly for competitions - they are used for other purposes too.

One of the 5 channels can only be used ground-ground (129.9) as in the air it has other dedicated users.

Another (129.975) can only be used within close range of certain gliding sites, and only those when registered with the CAA.

Why does every tinpot little power aerodrome have its own channel, only shared with some others so far away that there is rarely any interference, and 80 gliding clubs have to share 3 as well as with the air-air essential safety information?

That would be a more appropriate question.

Chris N.

===========================

[Pudnucker]

I see your point Chris but (never flown a glider so this is an assumption), aren't most gliding sorties in the immediate vicinity of a gliding site? Gliders doing cross countries I guess can use en-route frequencies and aerodrome frequencies...?

[chrisN]

Pudnucker wrote " . . aren't most gliding sorties in the immediate vicinity of a gliding site? Gliders doing cross countries I guess can use en-route frequencies and aerodrome frequencies...?"

More glider flights are local than x-country, but the latter are very numerous anyway - e.g. there were over 300 sorties via Didcot power station on one day (three different competitions were known to have used it for a turning point, as well as non-competition pilots who might have). Would you really want 350 glider pilots using some GA frequency to report their whereabouts? Could any ATC unit cope? Could you use the information if you were listening or if it were relayed to you?

Cloud flying messages between gliders on 130.4 is essential safety. There is no one GA frequency or ATC unit which could be used, nor would most VFR GA pilots want or need the information. Those IFR GA pilots who want to, can listen out on 130.4 - though why they want to be in IMC in class G airspace on days with suitable isolated cumulus for us to cloud fly, is beyond me. However, it is a free country.

How would ATC cope with glider cross country training using lead-and-follow techniques and calls between a small gaggle of gliders in one area?

How would an ATC or GA frequency cope with up to 100 gliders from a competition site calling start, and later finish, data?

There are lots of good reasons why gliding frequencies are separate, and it is grossly unfair that we have only 3 generally available, for about 3000 gliders, from 80 sites, to share, when every little GA aerodrome has it own - and Chevvron wants us to lose one or more of those 3!

Chris N.

[PPRuNe Radar]

Ask the CAA to swap 129.9 for another discrete frequency :ok:. Use of the air band for ground to ground comms is a waste of a limited resource. Buy them CB radios or something ;)

[Pudnucker]

Excuse me guys if I'm being Niave as we're getting drawn into something at a tanget to 123.45 abuse (and I know very little about glider flying apart from I should try it some day) but........

Are the the priviledges of a glider license the same as a PPL - eg "In sight of the surface and clear of cloud".... ?? If the glider license does allow (surely it doesn't??) flight in cloud you bloody well should be talking to someone....

I also presume the 300 or so gliders involved in the three events around didcot were Notam'd....

Not wanting to upset anyone here at all but surely there are safety implications if a) illegal (intentional) cloud flying is going on and b) there's 300 non-radio gliders hacking around the oxfordshire country side without talking to anyone......

Probably started a real sh*t fight now.... :)

[chrisN]

It's not illegal to cloud fly in gliders. The subject has been done to death several times following other power pilots continually raising it who similarly had not properly read the law. Sorry, but I am not going to be drawn into all that again.

Competitions are notam'd, including contact numbers. You do read notams, do you? Have you never seen one for a gliding comp? How strange. If you intend to fly in southern England next week, watch out for a paragliding competition, various other things, and this one:

NAVW: Q)EGTT/QWGLW/IV/M/W/000/100/5155N00108W003
FROM 06/07/08 08:00 TO 06/07/16 19:00 H1959/06
D)HJ
E)AUS 06-07-0076/2144/AS2
MAJOR BGA GLIDING COMPETITION INC CROSS-COUNTRY RTES. INTENSE
ACTIVITY WI 3NM RAD PSN 5154N 00108W (BICESTER AD,OXON). UP TO 50
GLIDERS AND 8TUG ACFT MAY PARTICIPATE. GLIDERS WILL NORMALLY OPR
BELOW THE INVERSION LEVEL OR BETWEEN THE TOPS OF ANY CUMULUS CLOUDS
AND 500FT AGL AND AVOID CAS UNLESS A PRIOR CLEARANCE HAS BEEN
OBTAINED. AFTER LAUNCH MANY PARTICIPANTS MAY BE CONCENTRATED IN
AROUND AND JUST DOWNWIND OF THE SITE OR ON THE FIRST LEG OF THE
CROSS-COUNTRY RTE. FOR INFO ON RTES FOR THE DAY AND LIKELY TAKE OFF
TIMES CONTACT GLIDER CONTEST CONTROL TEL 07986 049036.
F)SFC G)10000FT AGL

Actual tasks are set on the day. And private glider pilots, just like power, can go where they want in class G. Plus, into cloud.

Chris N.
==================================

[Pudnucker]

As I said in my post, I've never read the law pertaining to gliders as I don't go gliding - it was a fairly basic question - not being a know it all I thought I should ask.... :ok:

As to Notam's, I appear to be about the only person around here who can use the AIS website successfully (and do so EVERY trip)... I was one of the ones who DID avoid the Red Arrows at Kemble last weekend (see other thread!!).. Haven't actually seen a gliding competition notam'd before but that's probably because most of my flying is across to the channel islands....

Meanwhile back on the subject........

From the looks of things here, I reckon it would be worthwhile thing to draft a standard letter and get other PPruNe's around here to write in en-mass.......

[Sir George Cayley]

Why not write to the CAA under the Freedom of information Act and ask them for a list of all the frequencies they have allocated, all the ones allocated by others that interference issues preclude and all the un-allocated freqs.

When they bite. suggest a bizarre one for Bristow's and give us 123.45.:ok:

Result:)

Sir George Cayley

[WestWind1950]

in Germany we have the following frequencies generally alloted... surely you must have something similar....
Motorflight training and practice: 122,300
Motorlfight BORD - BORD (what you guys seem to want): 122,800
Glider (also alloted to some glider fields):
training and practice at a field: 123,500
cross-country: 122,550
training and practice not at a field: 123,150
other glider use: 123,350
chase car: 123,400
Freeballoon: 122,250
Parachuting: 126,725
Hang gliders, Ultralights:
training and practice: 123,425
other: 120,975
plus the usual stuff like military (122,100)
the frequency 123,45 is also misused here for chatting... I heard it is acutally an emergency freqency in Holland, but I'm not sure.
So people, just use the one you're supposed to otherwise shut up! Frequencies are passed out for reasons and are not there for fun and games. :=
Westy

[UV]

"So people, just use the one you're supposed to otherwise shut up! Frequencies are passed out for reasons and are not there for fun and games"

Precisely....
UV

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Why not write to the CAA under the Freedom of information Act

First read the (long) list of FoI Act exemptions. Then understand how much extra work has to be done to log and track each FoI request, which you are paying for one way or another.

Then see whether the public authority will simply give you the information you request just because you ask nicely. The sane ones will because they know pefectly well that if your polite request turns into a formal FoI demand they'll have a lot more hassle.

(Note: I'm only telling you how sane public authorities will behave. I'm most certainly not guaranteeing that all public authorities are sane.)

[LowNSlow]

Westy that is a wonderfully sensible system so, by definition, it would never work in the UK. :ugh: :ugh: