Formation callsigns

[YYZ]

HI,
After doing a search there is some but not much info on the above?

I will be taking part in a two aircraft jolly across Europe this week and am a tad confused about what callsign to use?

We are the same type and will be at same level hopefully within one mile of each other, therefore, do we use, G-xxxx combine, G-xxxx formation, G-xxxx flight etc. I’m sure many will of done this sort of thing, but there seems to be many opinions also.

Thanks
YYZ

[Lucy Lastic]

We tend to use the callsign of the leading aircraft and 'formation'.

We have found some places really don't like dealing with formations, tough, but then I wouldn't call a one-mile spacing a formation.

[eharding]

Formation

....and will be at same level hopefully within one mile of each other.....

:eek:

Really fighting for those references on the leader, eh?

[YYZ]

eharding, why bother posting if all it’s going to be is sarcasm, all the statements in my original post were from the Prune search, that’s why I asked the question, but really, thanks:D

Lucy, thanks for your useful input.

YYZ

[robin]

YYZ

I was talking to an ATCO recently who described how that unit dealt with formations.

They like some sort of prior warning, but the rule they use is that they only speak to the leader, and for spacing for other aircraft, like to know that the formation is quite tight.

Your other option is for the leader to make the calls but adding 'in company with g-xxxx' Then the accompanying aircraft can give abbreviated calls

[stiknruda]

YYZ

My opinion:-

If you have no formal formation experience then do not try and be a formation, even the simple ettiquette of frequency changes becomes sligtly more involved for a formation:eek:

Rather do as suggested by Robin and use your full call sign, in company with G-xxxx - you should then be able to do all the radio work.

And as for eharding's post, well I must admit I thought something v similar! A formation is not two aircraft on the same heading on the same day!!

Stik

[YYZ]

stiknruda,

Thanks for that, and I appreciate your comment at the end, this is what I was after, Obviously I do not know the options available to aircraft flying together, hence why I asked, the term formation is one that seems to crop up all the time when more than one aircraft is leaving and arriving together.

I do think that the last option of "In Company” sounds best.

Many Thanks All
YYZ

[Fournicator]

YYZ:

Something about chill-pills springs to mind! Friendly banter, and to be fair, with a bloody good point - what you're describing really isn't formation, more same way, same day.

Man Up.

F

[Human Factor]

Having flown with eharding, I feel it was more banter than sarcasm. ;)

At any rate, if you're doing long distance touring, the formation probably won't be that tight anyway. You'd be worn out before you get to wherever you're going!! :zzz:

[YYZ]

OK, I submit to defeat, my sincere apologise too eharding, what you put could be misinterpreted, as could my post, except for I was the one that was a miserable sod.

Thanks to everyone for their input, it is a long trip and in company sounds like the most sensible option.

YYZ

[stiknruda]

YYZ - sweet work, you've understood banter.
I have the misfortune to frequently fly formation with a former Red :
"And, ok and relax - we'll be using up ALL the formation juice if we remain this tight!"
:p :p

[Runaway Gun]

I used to fly military TACTICAL formation, which would see the group elements spread at one mile spacing at low level, and more at high level.

Whilst not classical close formation, it was a definite skill, and it took some doing. Less about specific reference points, and more about relative size of aircraft at such ranges, recognising acceleration and deceleration, and closure or divergance. These conditions would change very gradually, and if not recognised, would require massive corrections.

Still, very tricky. If you do fly this seperated by only one mile or less, then be very very careful, and exercise that 'lookout' routine.

[airborne_artist]

Checking my logbook I see that in July of 79 on my intro to formation I flew 6.20 hours formation - and hard work it was too. We used callsigns Pistole, Monkey and Rector - they are RN EFTS copyright, so a fiver in the Poppy Fund tin if you use one or more of them :E

[formationfoto]

Leader to handle calls and 'in company with' the best solution. Expect to turn transponder to standby on following aircraft. Dont call it formation if it isnt. Indicate sep distance. As for real formation (ie following aircraft relying on sole visual reference on lead) choose a formation name and on first contact use that formation name and indicate formation membership on second call.

[gasax]

My friends and I have done this quite a lot.

It does need practice and naturally discipline but we find that it can make touring very enjoyable.

We usually make an opening call, then 'xxxx in company with blah, blah.' On arriving at the destination you usually have to say 'xxxx formation breaking yyy will call for joining instructions' - unless it is a military establishment where they are often happy to deal with a formation onto the apron.

We have tried all sorts of combinations but the most successful have been comms from the best person in the formation, navigation and formation lead from either the best equipped or aircraft with the poorest vision. (One is a Tripacer which does have small windows!

If you could use a formation frequency is would be useful to cover changes in plans but with a little ingenuity, most information can be included in calls to ATC.

We usually aim for about 0.5 mile separation in an echelon, makes holding position easy and not too tiring, any more and just keeping the aircraft in sight is tiring.

[NinjaBill]

When Flying in formation, less than, say 150metres, we used the callsign G-ABCD formation, where, G-CD was the formation lead, then the first call would be

"G-ABCD formation, is a formation of G-ABCD C152 and G-BCDE AA5 etc. "

From then on, ATC would treat the formation as one aircraft, with the lead transponding, and doing all the radio.

On splitting formation, we said

"G-BCDE is now leaving formation. New call signs will be G-ABCD and B-BCDE"

No problems :)

[stiknruda]

NB wrote, G-ABCD formation, is a formation of G-ABCD C152 and G-BCDE AA5 etc. "



Sorry old bean that is not a formation that is a COMBINE - diff a/c types

I know that it matters not a jot but as I feel that tiny inacuracies in some of my posts are aired and blown out of proportion, I thought I'd "help"!:cool: :ugh:

[gasax]

There are alot of people in glass houses here!

However stik - I recall a number of LARS have referred to our formation as a 'combine', something which I had not really worried about. But to be technically correct we were at all things a 'combine'.

p.s. How to translate this in french?

[Sir George Cayley]

Historic formation reference too arcane for anyone born after 1980.
Sir George Cayley

[gasax]

technically speaking I believe the Balbo would be a formation. Although to the purists here probably spread out too thinly? It just doesn't sound so good when you say 'they did it in company' does it?

[Flik Roll]

Combine can be used for aircraft of the same type.

You could say:

Blah G-XXXX, cessna combine 2 a/c etc etc. Don't need to say what the second callsign is until you come to split

Have you tried CAP 413?