N-reg? good or not??

[Stephjaygee]

The plane I am about to buy is N registered. There seem to be some good financial reasons for keeping it that way but I have heard that you need to set up a US company to purchse through and need a FAA PPL to fly outside the UK. Is this true? If so, how do I go about it?? Would be grateful for any advice on the subject. Thanks. Steph.

[Chilli Monster]

"Cheaper" is a bit of a misnomer. There is no 50Hr check as per UK maintenance, but 100Hr and annuals (the two can be combined if they concur).

Trusts - these are the American ownership schemes whereby you register your aircraft via these companies for an annual fee. Details in the back of teh usual Aviation Mags but the two most popular are Southern Aircraft Consultancy in Cornwall and Anglo Aviation in the Channel islands

Licensing - correct, you cannot fly it outside the UK unless you have a US licence. Obtaining one of these though is a simple matter of going to the US (after you've let the FAA now you're coming - PM me for the details if you want to know the full process). Main reason for getting an 'N' reg is a more accesible Instrument rating, valid worldwide in an 'N' reg obviously.

[Longbow55]

To add on the inspections, The 100hr technically is for "aircraft for hire" now if you are one of those that fly over a 100hr a year, then you will have "maybe" a couple AD's which require a 100hr inspection. it is always a good thing to do a good engine check every oil change, and a spark plug clean every 100 hr's. the scope of the 100/annual inspection for most planes are the same.

Now if you get this plane. DONOT get a pre buy, have an annual done by someone other than the normal mechanic that works on this plane. a Pre buy is a joke, and I for one will not do one if someone asks me. If yo uwant to know more. please e-mail me. and don't forget a title search. Good luck on your endevour.:ok:

[IO540]

The 100hr check is required only if you are going to do flight training (of other people) in your plane, or carry paying passengers. It is not required for rental alone, contrary what a lot of people say. Reference FAR 91.409:

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFAR.nsf/0/B81CF1D2523672DF86256EEB0068A1CF?OpenDocument&Highlight=aircraft%20maintenance

The 50hr checks are not legally required, same as they aren't legally required in a G-reg on the private CofA regime, but in practice you still have to do the manufacturer's recommended maintenance, which is typically 50hr checks... but the pilot can (in general) do them (like on the G-reg).

[3FallinFlyer]

I managed to get an FAA licence on the back of my UK licence without leaving the country. After speaking to the FAA, I found out that they often (usually about once a month) have officials in the UK who can do the necessary verification etc. I met up with one in a hotel near Gatwick, we sorted out the paperwork and that was that.

I have since been to the States, done the FAA IR and it is definately the way I would choose to go!!! :)

The only thing to consider is the now very quiet DFT proposal to prevent foreign registered a/c from being based in the UK... but that now seems to have gone away, unless anyone knows differently!!! :confused:

PS - The trust thing is not a big issue. We use Southern but I'm sure the others are just as good!

[IO540]

I use Southern too.

Today, I would suggest forgetting the piggyback PPL route for anybody who wants the IR, because you (virtually) have to go to the USA for the IR checkride, and you may as well knock off the standalone PPL while you are at it.

I have not come across anybody who seems to know what's happened to the DfT kick-out-N-reg proposal. Very likely, they found strong opposition (well, that is a fact) and decided they have easier fish to fry for now.

One big advantage of N is that you can choose a competent FAA A&P who you know and trust to do the work for you, or with you. Because there is no absolutely fixed 50hr interval (with a possible 10% extension) you can do the servicing at times that suit you. Sometimes at 40hrs, or 60hrs. Whereas on a G you are tied to JAR145 companies who can hide poor workmanship behind their certification. I can't remember how many chewed-up airframe screws I've had to replace after that lot.

[scooter boy]

I am also with Southern Aircraft Consultancy who give a very good service.
If you have an IR and want to legally fly in the airways system then N-reg undoubtedly has far more advantages than disadvantages both for aircraft and pilot. Although there are some minor loopholes to negotiate.
Basically the country who invented aviation still do it best. They have more aircraft, more pilots (far more pilots with an IR), very few landing fees, excellent weather services.
God bless America :D

Shame they can't play football (or is it soccer?)

[Morgo]

Now if you get this plane. DONOT get a pre buy, have an annual done by someone other than the normal mechanic that works on this plane. a Pre buy is a joke, and I for one will not do one if someone asks me. If yo uwant to know more. please e-mail me. and don't forget a title search. Good luck on your endevour.:ok:

I do not agree with that. I was in the process of buying a Robin Regent that had just come out of an Annual Inspection all signed off. I took my local engineer (a Robin expert) to view the aircraft and he found
i) That ADs were outstanding
ii) That the aircraft was not airworthy and had to ground it
iii) Parts of the wooden frame were severely damp and had to be replaced
iv) Many other issues that had to be fixed which I would not have picked up due to lack of experience and probably would not have been picked up in an annual as they're not items that would necessarily be checked.

Get a pre-buy inspection from an engineer who is an expert on that aircraft type for peace of mind - that is my opinion.

[IO540]

I do not agree with that. I was in the process of buying a Robin Regent that had just come out of an Annual Inspection all signed off. I took my local engineer (a Robin expert) to view the aircraft and he found
i) That ADs were outstanding
ii) That the aircraft was not airworthy and had to ground it
iii) Parts of the wooden frame were severely damp and had to be replaced

The most important thing would have been to submit the documentary evidence of all this to the CAA.

They may not care (for this could lead to a shutdown of a fair bit of the UK maintenance business) but on the other hand they might.

The important thing for a pre-buy is to get a trusted individual (not a company) to have a look at it and provide an informal view. It's going to cost a few hundred quid at least, especially since so many planes rarely fly (or haven't flown for months or longer before finally selling) so that an engine borescope is essential.

[Julian]

I am in a N-Reg group along with a certain Mr Monster from this forum and the main attraction to me is obviously the IR element. Its much easier to maintain the IR once you have it rather(self certifying) than the £1000+ check flight with a CAA examiner and so a much more attractiv option for getting places.

I cant comment about the cost element as the group hasnt been running that long and brought the aircraft over from the US so we have had a few bills to shell out for but, hopefully, now all the major expense is over and we can start enjoiyng the flying.

I understand from the group chairman that they had a few inspections on aircraft done that turned out to complete lemons before they settled on the one we have (PA28RT-201). So I would err on the side of caution and get a prebuy done.

J.

[Longbow55]

Morgo you are confusing both the inspection. For an N-Registered aircraft, there is no set standard for a "Pre-Buy" everyone thinks that a pre-buy is an annual inspection, it is not. A pre buy can be whatever the mechanic wants it to be, :uhoh: heck he/she could drive by the plane see all attached and say, looks good enough to buy:sad: . then the owner has to deal with it at annual time:{ , having an annual done, which looks like you pretty much had done is the best and safest way, and use a person like I said, and what Margo did, it saves you allot of heatache the next year.

In a nut shell and not to start an arguement, because i don't, get the type inspection you want. if you ask for a pre-buy and get a general look over, don't blame the mechanic, he/she did what you asked. I for one will do an annual only, I will not do a pre buy for a customer, and I tell them why just like I did. :ok:

[AC-DC]

I use Southern too.
...for anybody who wants the IR, because you (virtually) have to go to the USA for the IR checkride, and you may as well knock off the standalone PPL while you are at it.


Not true. Can be done at Elstree, all leagal and above board.

[IO540]

If somebody has got DPEs coming over from the USA, that's good news, but it is news :)

Last time I checked, some 6 months ago, none of the well known operators in the N-reg training scene had as much as seen an examiner since early 2005.

So I would be careful before making any advance payments, either for the last 3 hours' flying in the 60d before the checkride, or for the checkride itself. Last time the supply of examiners dried up, a number of punters lost their deposits and only some were able to recover it from their credit card company. In other words, just like the slightly more ragged edges of the UK PPL flight training business :)

Doing the training in the UK is not a problem; you can do just about all of it in a G-reg with a JAA instructor, as it happens.

One problem with UK based FAA checkrides was that the examiners would not do them in G-reg (no JAA instructor rating, for a start) and to do them in N-reg you need the DfT permission, and this is available only to pilots who meet the DfT aircraft ownership rules. In practice it means that only aircraft owners can get UK based FAA checkrides.

[youngskywalker]

I believe the training provoder at Norwich has recently had a 'DPE' visit for check rides.

Slightly different topic: Can someone refresh my memory if an FAA CFII can do BFR's and IPC's on G reg aircraft? I think they can but obviously not for hire or reward?

:)

[IO540]

Can someone refresh my memory if an FAA CFII can do BFR's and IPC's on G reg aircraft? I think they can but obviously not for hire or reward?

I think this one has done the rounds, but I don't recall the conclusions.

I recall that to act as an instructor in UK airspace and be paid for the flying you need to have a JAA instructor rating.

And to act as an instructor in a G-reg you need a JAA instructor rating even if you are doing it for free (if the student is to be able to log it as an instructional flight).

So I think for a BFR or IPC in a G-reg you need a dual rated (FAA+JAA) instructor *.

You can do it in an N-reg with just an FAA CFI/CFII provided he doesn't charge for it. The DfT permission for training doesn't help here; getting that means you can pay the instructor, but he cannot legally receive the money unless he has a JAA instructor rating. The only way is a) he doesn't charge for the flight or b) the instructional part of the flight takes place outside the UK FIR (which, I recall, could be in IOM airspace).

I hope I am not regurgitating some incorrect info here, so references to the contrary would be very useful!

* That one I am least sure about. Under FAA rules, in an N-reg, you can have a BFR, IPC or even a full PPL or IR checkride and you can remain (and log) PIC throughout. The RHS person is just an observer (if done in VMC which usually it is). I don't think this is the case in a G-reg, where I think the instructor is automatically PIC (and the student is thus PU/T). The need to do all this legally in UK airspace led to the practice of FAA checkrides in G-reg planes whereby the FAA examiner sat in the back seat while a JAA-rated instructor sat in the RHS - this was stopped some years ago, allegedly following an accident which drew attention to it.

[youngskywalker]

Thanks IO540, I seem to recall a similar question before but couldnt remember what the general consesus was. So many rules, so hard to keep track of them all! It's time we had one licence for the world...and make it an FAA one :ok: