RT Confusion

[VNAVSPD]

Last week I routed through the Stapleford overhead en-route to Southend.

Called up on the A/G freq and the chap on the radio came back with a response that threw me, even now I'm not totally sure what he was implying.



1) Stapleford radio G-XXXX
2) G-XXXX Stapleford radio pass your message

1) G-XX PA28 VFR from XXX to Southend via Cuffley. 10nm west of Stapleford 2300ft routing through your overhead request traffic information.
2) G-XX you'll be in our ATZ at that altitude.

1) G-XX Roger, standby.
1) G-XX climbing to 2400ft
2) G-XX you'll be outside our ATZ at that altitude, report overhead and keep a listening watch.

1) Wilco G-XX



You'll be in our ATZ at that altitude?

Was he advising me of this for my information or was he implying that I was doing something wrong? I was fully aware that I would be skimming the top of the ATZ, hence the reason for my call. Incidentally, on the way back I was at 2300ft. The A/G operator was a different chap and we were only asked to report overhead.

[Chilli Monster]

G-XX you'll be in our ATZ at that altitude

My answer has to be - so what?

ATZ - yes, ATC service - no, just air / ground. ANO states that if that or FISO is the service being provided then you have "a requirememnt to obtain information necessary to conduct the transit safely". This you were doing by calling up and asking for any traffic information.

There was nothing wrong with what you were doing, nor was there any requirement for you to climb. A/G operator was at fault however - all he should have said was what was asked for - nothing more.

[tacpot]

Stapleford is 223ft AMSL so the ATZ extends to 2223ft AMSL.

Depending on the pressure setting you were flying on, you may have been within the ATZ - but as your posting didn't say you quoted the pressure setting you were on, so I don't see how the A/G Operator could know whether or not you were going to be in the ATZ or not. If you were on the Stapleford QNH, you would have been outside the ATZ at 2300ft.

Perhaps the Operator just wanted to help you ensure that you didn't bust the ATZ. Legally, to enter an ATZ you need to comply with the requirements of the airfield in question, e.g. PPR.

On your return, you may have quoted a QNH that meant that at 2300ft you were definitely above the ATZ.

tp

[FullyFlapped]

"Inside the ATZ" ? At 2300 feet ?

At this risk of looking like a plonker (no change there, then ;) ), how could he have been inside the ATZ ? At a height of 2300 he'd be above it, and even taking into account some sort of confusion over the use of "altitude", given that Stapleford has an elevation of 185 feet, he'd still be outside the 2000' limit, surely ?

Or have they changed the rules without me spotting it ?

FF :ok:

[DubTrub]

Legally, to enter an ATZ you need to comply with the requirements of the airfield in question, e.g. PPR.

Sorry, tacpot. As CM refers, that's not correct. You only need to establish two-way communications.

I too have had some "interesting" radio communications with Stapleford, generally with reference to their circuit traffic which seems to like flying well outside the ATZ, but that's nother story.

In VNAVSPD's example, an A/G operator is not allowed to say report overhead and keep a listening watch

[rustle]

My answer has to be - so what?

I believe the accepted response is "roger" - wanna borrow my '413 Chilli? ;)

[VNAVSPD]

Just to clarify, I was flying on the QNH which I obtained from the Stansted ATIS. I Don't think I reported the pressure setting that I was using in my call.

[Kolibear]

Stapleford is 223ft AMSL

Hmmm. we must have had a major seismic event & I missed it. My maps & flight guide show 185'. :ok:

[Mike Cross]

Sorry, tacpot. As CM refers, that's not correct. You only need to establish two-way communications.

Rule 39(2) An aircraft shall not fly, take off or land within the aerodrome traffic zone of an aerodrome to which this paragraph applies unless the commander of the aircraft has obtained the permission of the air traffic control unit at the aerodrome or, where there is no air traffic control unit, has obtained from the aerodrome flight information service unit at that aerodrome information to enable the flight within the zone to be conducted with safety or, where there is no air traffic control unit nor aerodrome flight information service unit, has obtained information from the air/ground radio station at that aerodrome to enable the flight to be conducted with safety.
Not quite wot you said Rob;)

[Whopity]

Depending on the pressure setting you were flying on, you may have been within the ATZ - but as your posting didn't say you quoted the pressure setting you were on, so I don't see how the A/G Operator could know whether or not you were going to be in the ATZ or not.

As Stapleford is under the London TMA you can only be on the London/Stapleford QNH!

AIP ENR 1.7 Para 3.10 When flying in Airspace below TMAs and CTAs detailed above, pilots should use the QNH of an adjacent aerodrome when flying below the Transition Altitude. It may be assumed that for aerodromes located beneath such Areas, the differences in the QNH values are insignificant.

[Dude~]

Why is it that when I ask Compton Abbas for trafic information there is always a long pause followed by 'G-XX air gorund radio only'

Hmmm.... how useful - lots of other air ground operators will at least say if the circuit is active or not.

[Barnaby the Bear]

I too have had some "interesting" radio communications with Stapleford, generally with reference to their circuit traffic which seems to like flying well outside the ATZ, but that's nother story.


To be fair at most busy training airfields, cct traffic usually extends outside the ATZ. Aircraft are becoming faster and therefore a 2 Radius ATZ isn't usually sufficient and most pilots would probably opt to extend downwind, rather than orbit.

But like you say, thats another story :8