F-16 intercept unidentified 737 over the Netherlands [Archive]

OscarTango

24th Jun 2006, 12:04

This morning being Coordinating controller at Maastricht we had a flight on screen, but no radio contact. So the Dutch air Defence launched 2 F16's to intercept... after a while ( because the crew didn't have 121,5 selected on com2 ) we had him back on the frequency and all was well.
Now, we believe the Dutch authorities forward the bill to the company, so I can imagine they are not happy about that. So, how does your company deal with events like this ? Will the pilot be reprimanded for it, or will he just have to explain his side of the story, and that's the end of it ?
In short...can the pilots reading this post on how their company would deal with a situation like this towards the crew.
Thank you,
OT :ok:

vapilot2004

24th Jun 2006, 22:15

"xxxxx flight xxx.......,xxxx center, please respond.........." :eek:

Two Dutch F-16 fighter jets were scrambled Saturday to intercept a Boeing 737 jet after air traffic controllers temporarily failed to make contact with the plane, the Defense Ministry said in a statement.

The plane was on its way from Bulgaria to Belfast and was allowed to continue its flight once authorities managed to establish radio contact, the statement said.

The two jet fighters, based in the northern city of Leeuwarden, set off a sonic boom as they sped through the sound barrier above the northern Netherlands on their way to intercept the plane, the ministry said.

''To protect Dutch airspace, F-16s are ready 24/7 for these Quick Reaction Alert missions,'' the statement said. ''When there is a report of an unidentified plane in Dutch airspace, the F-16s can be in the air within minutes to intercept the plane.

It was not immediately clear which airline or company was operating the flight that sparked Saturday's alert.

rotorcraig

24th Jun 2006, 23:17

Looks like this is a press statement that is frequently issued, with only source and destination changed?

Happened on January 18th (http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/line-16/0601189177143911.htm) to a 737 Berlin to Amsterdam.

Happened again on February 17th (http://www.f-16.net/news_article1628.html) to a 737 Malaga to Oslow.

RC

check77

25th Jun 2006, 08:34

EatMyShorts!

25th Jun 2006, 08:59

Yupp, I hope everyone got 121.5 up on #2 !?!?

Capt Sly

25th Jun 2006, 09:07

I am a little curious what causes a prolonged loss of radio contact between the airliners and ATC. From my mil experience, if I don't gain contact upon frequency change, I'll just switch back to the previous one and tell them. That usually solves the problem. Also, is everyone continuously listening out on 121.5?

There are many reasons you may have a loss of radio contact.... how about you were transferred to from Rhine to Maastricht and get radio contact. 15 minutes later the controller forgets to hand you over to the next sector, and 20 minutes later you are about to enter UK airspace and so request descent. No answer - you've gone out of radio range from the radar controller (but you can still hear everything).

Alternatively on getting radio contact with the next sector your radio "goes to sleep" - ie the release of the transmit switch failed to bring the receiver back so all is now quiet, you hear nothing until you realise it might be a problem.

A third one - during a physiological break a pilot forgets to to tell the other who they are talking to, and it gets left on the previous frequency - the controller has handed him over and the Maastricht controller is trying to raise the aircraft but they are not listening.

121.5 is good, but there are other things to listen/talk to - ATIS, maintenance, ramp handling. Plus when you get near UK airspace it gets a bit tedious listening to Practice Pan etc.

As I said - there are a multitude of reasons - I'm sure you can think of some yourself.
Safe flying

spuis

25th Jun 2006, 09:37

My company's flight safety department would start an investigation to find the cause of the incident.
When all the facts are on the table they will present their report to parties concerned.
Maybe after the report the crew is invited for tea and biscuits by their superior maybe not.

Spuis

jondc9

25th Jun 2006, 09:49

the reason this happened is that pilots screw up and quite frankly aren't as professional as one would hope.

early on as a copilot I flew with a captain who was more interested in reading a golf magazine than monitoring the radio. He even said, "if it seems I don't care, its because I don't!)

I asked the captain twice to get us a descent and he told me to shut up and atc would tell us what they wanted.

finally I did a radio check and found out that we were not talking to the right controller. I switched over and requested the descent while the captain was trying to figure out where the hell we were ( complete loss of situational awareness on his part!)

I reported him to our chief pilot who called said captain in and offered to accept his retirement on the spot, confronting him with paperwork ready to be signed. The captain retired on the spot.

Don't think for a moment somthing equally unprofessional didn't happen in this case.

I can imagine charts in europe show ATC boundries just like here in the US...if you aren't on alert and vigilant in the cockpit, you might as well not be there!

jon

Lon More

25th Jun 2006, 10:13

Unfortunately this happens too often. Now SOP to launch the fighters, ICAO recommended practice, IFIRC.
Caused some consternation in the Netherlands as people are not used to the military being active on weekends, esp. not going supersonic.
Capt Sly - the way the system runs at Maastricht, the controller "assumes" the aircraft, making the data block on his display brighter. The traffic levels there ensure that a request will quickly be made to the previous sector to transfer the aircraft.
If you should get through the system without talking to ATC but can contact other aircraft ask them to relay for you.
The Sector Supervisor at Maastricht is required to inform the Military Sup. of any aircraft in R/F. This info is passed to Air Defence, who make the decision to launch the QEA flight.
During the Cold War we could tell if the flight was armed as it was displayed as a Hot Scramble (a discrete Mode A code was used by these flights) I'm not sure if that is still the case. There was an intercept of a Delta 767 last year ago over the North Sea where a spotter had put the R/T between the interceptors and Dutch Mil on the net (link here) (http://www.zap16.com/Intercept%20f16%20B767%20Delta.htm), rather frightening as one of the calls was "weapons safe".
I agree about the nuisance calls on 121.5 being a pain. Is there no concept of a "regional guard" freq. in the UK? There was (is?) one in the Netherlands, a common tower freq. monitored by all the bases, can't remember ever hearing a practice Pan on it though, must be a UK thing. However I would think that the sudden appearance of a couple of interceptors just outside the cockpit would merit a very quick call on 121.5, or even 243 (FWIW one of the previous intercepts was made on a USAF Nightingale a/c:uhoh:)

The Real Slim Shady

25th Jun 2006, 12:40

We listen on 121.5 on box 2 when we aren't using it for weather,company calls etc. We also have the FIR bdy estimates on the PLOG so we have an idea of the elapsed time for a change of control centre and we have the airway chart available showing sector boundaries and frequencies.

chevvron

25th Jun 2006, 12:44

Was there an 8.33khz frequency involved? On many earlier 8.33 capable radios the crew must remember to physically switch to/from 8.33 khz to/from 25 khz spacing, otherwise when you think you select (say) 119.775 you actually select 119.770.

Viper2

25th Jun 2006, 12:57

the reason this happened is that pilots screw up and quite frankly aren't as professional as one would hope.

Don't think for a moment somthing equally unprofessional didn't happen in this case.

jon

Hello Jon,

Where you there? This is a pretty strong accusation you make here. As far as I understand based upon one situation you encountered in your flying carreer.

As mentioned by someone else in a previous post .... there can be various reasons for this to happen. I agree that a pilot should be sure there is two way radio communication. But sometimes things go wrong. Maybe beacause both pilots were reading a golf magazine, or the playboy, or the .... The exact reason in this case I don't know. Do you?

Get my point?

Happy flying.

kellmark

25th Jun 2006, 14:49

It seems that this is a continuing problem in Europe where air carrier type of aircraft lose contact with ATC and then the fighters are launched. (In one case a Spanish carrier flight from Norway to Spain had 3 sets of fighters launched after it). What is being overlooked is that most carriers in Europe do not have flight monitoring/flight watch systems where Flight Dispatchers/Flight Operations Officers are responsible to watch the flights and have their own communication system with the flight while it is enroute, and can tell ATC who and where they are independently of ATC, before any interceptors are launched. In that case all it would take is a phone call from ATC to the carrier to verify who it is or what is happening and then the crew could be notified independently by the flight dispatcher to contact ATC.
In the US this interception thing is extremely rare as all US carriers are required to have this system. Most intercepts there are either for gen av aircraft unidentified or off course in restricted areas or in the unusual case, an intercept of a foreign carrier for various reasons. But with US domestic carriers, it is simply a question of a phone call to the carrier, then an ACARS message or radio call to the crew by the dispatcher, and back to ATC they go. (I have done this myself on several occasions, when ATC lost contact). And the crew's career is not generally jeapardized by this either as it is a quick system to resolve the problem before it becomes serious. But if you don't have the system and are relying on just the ATC radio, then you get the fighters.
It also brings to mind the recent case of the Vietnam Airlines B777 which was threatened with being shot down, also over Europe (but not a European carrier, of course). But it shows again that a flight monitoring system is a very good thing to have. Unfortunately many carriers do not have them and in many cases they don't even know for sure where their flights are, as they have no one assigned to track them. Not good, as they also miss a lot of important operatational data (such as severe weather, facilities problems, alternates closing, ATC issues) getting to the crews by not having them.

OscarTango

25th Jun 2006, 14:58

I'm not so sure that nobody has this system in place...I remember my supervisor give Spanair Ops a call to inform them that we did not have contact with one of their flights, and that fighters would be scrambled soon...

The Spanish were rather quick in contacting the crew to tell them to call us. Of course, this is in case we have the phone number of the operator ( some flightplans contain the phone number in the Remarks-field ( Field 18 ? ) ). But not all do.

We also try to ask a company ship on the same freq. to use the company freq. to contact the lost-in-space aircraft, or via ACARS. In this case it was the only HMS-flight in the area, so therefore air defense was warned in the way that Lon More described ( Hi there, Lon...:) )

PPRuNe Radar

25th Jun 2006, 15:10

Flight Dispatchers/Flight Operations Officers are responsible to watch the flights and have their own communication system with the flight while it is enroute, and can tell ATC who and where they are independently of ATC, before any interceptors are launched. In that case all it would take is a phone call from ATC to the carrier to verify who it is or what is happening and then the crew could be notified independently by the flight dispatcher to contact ATC.

The problem is not one of knowing who they are and where they are. ATC already know that. Flight data and identification are transferred by ATC agencies ahead of the passage of the aircraft What they don't have is communication. What they don't know is if this is for an innocent reason, or whether some illegal interference is taking place. What the authorities don't have is time on their side if it is the latter. Hence the relatively quick escalation to air defence measures whilst all the other avenues to contact the aircraft are also being attempted.

In the UK, we have the telephone numbers of the Ops people at the majority of the carriers operating in the airspace. For most of those, the Ops guys can get in touch with the crew via ACARS or other means. That's not a US carrier specific thing, but covers the majors in Europe and the rest of the world as well :ok:. For smaller operators (or even US GA or corporate flights), there is often no way to get in touch via Ops, or even a number for their Ops Department (if they have one). So it's back to the old techniques of radio relays, calls on 'guard', or sending up the fighters :ouch:

PS it's not always the pilots fault. ATC can also sometimes be to blame by letting the aircraft get out of radio range and forgetting to transfer in a timely manner :}

jondc9

25th Jun 2006, 15:37

of course it is not always the pilot's fault.

BUT.

In this crazy world of flying, the last defense against a foul up is an alert and well trained crew.

If you are just sitting in the cockpit, "fat, dumb, and happy" chances are you have missed something.

If your tire falls off on takeoff, maybe you didn't do a thorough enough pre-flight inspection.

If you lose radio contact, maybe you have not "maintained a proper listening watch" on your radio. Perhaps you are too busy flirting with the f/a's who come to the cockpit to rest their feet.

While a loss of radio com from ATC might happen on your first flight into an unknown area. If you are on the same route for the umpteenth time in the last year, you begin to anticipate radio frequency changes.

ALL you have to do is say: "Blank center, Air Widget 23, RADIO CHECK please".

This will wake up a controller who forgot, it will check your radio, and your fellow pilots will notice if ATC doesn't answer and they will confirm your transmitter is transmitting.

Sorry boys and girls. If you are tired, not alert, or bored with flying and "zoned out", it is time to fix things.

Many years ago, when I was first learning to fly, there were 3 incidents in the state of california in which planes crashed into mountains while "IMC". ATC foul ups for two of them. Over expectations of ATC service was the third.

It all comes down to the pilot. Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. We have more tools than ever before, but the enemy is complacency. And it is this that is growing as a problem!

No radio, use your transponder. At least the F16's will try to signal you before blasting you!

jon

overstress

25th Jun 2006, 17:34

jondc9:

This Many years ago, when I was first learning to fly, there were 3 incidents in the state of california in which planes crashed into mountains while "IMC". ATC foul ups for two of them. Over expectations of ATC service was the third. is typical of your soundbite style of posting.

This is a professional pilots forum.

Many years ago, when I was learning to fly ;) I was taught that the pilot is always responsible for terrain clearance.

Also: No radio, use your transponder.

As has been patiently explained above, you may not know that you have 'lost contact'

So your transponder, which ATC are using to see you, is irrelevant, is it not?

TE RANGI

25th Jun 2006, 17:47

It seems that this is a continuing problem in Europe where air carrier type of aircraft lose contact with ATC and then the fighters are launched. (In one case a Spanish carrier flight from Norway to Spain had 3 sets of fighters launched after it).

That was an Air Europa flight that didn't make a single transmission from Copenhaguen UIR to mid-France, with scrambles in Holland, Belgium and France.

Back to Oscar Tango initial question, there was an internal investigation but the crew were not suspended. I'm not sure the company ever got billed for the damage.

B737NG

26th Jun 2006, 03:09

Jon, I hope you feel good about the report to the Chief-Pilot. If you would get the man to listen to you then he would get your concern and he would change his attitude. You can make him listen, it is part of our job that we take comments from everybody and make something out of it. It is not important who is right, important is what is right at the moment. Later, on the gorund after you landed and the door is still closed you can bring the matter up again and it would be showing a good way of "be a man" and talk it over. I know you did the right thing and you intention was good and safe as well to be alert. In behalf of everybody around and under your flightpath I will thank you for the awareness you have had. A report to the Chief-Pilot is the last you may need in your career, maybe the grace of somebody else will help you out one day. We are not single in the Cockpit, we are now two and in the good old days we where three who make the good thing happen and come back to the ground safe and sound. Allways safe skies and happy landings for you and all the Woman and Man who try to do the best every day and night 24/7......

Fly safe and land happy

NG

Plastic Bug

26th Jun 2006, 04:21

Jon, you DC9 Guy, I gotta hand it to ya!

EVERY time you lead with your chin, there is SOMEONE willing to connect!

It doesn't matter that you are right. Nope. It don't matter that you point out the obvious. Nope.

You are a BAD MAN! You point out the things we don't wan't to admit and for that you are DAMNED!!!! Damned to HECK I tell you!!!

Next Squadron Party, I'm buying you a beer.

EOR

PB

electricjetjock

26th Jun 2006, 08:10

Doesn't matter that he might be WRONG - JUMPING to conclusions and being what you guys call a"monday morning quarterback".:oh: Yes he has some good points but it is the method and delivery that are the problem. The holier than thou and "WIWO" attitude just rubs some people up the wrong way. Perhaps it is just as well he ain't flying for the moment as the CRM leaves a lot to be desired.:ugh:

brain fade

26th Jun 2006, 08:21

Hi Jon
At least you don't need 'assertiveness' training.:eek:
Could you not have handled the situation with your golfing capt with a view to a better outcome?
What goes around has a habit of coming 'round, and none of us are so hot as to be bulletproof!
Happy landings, if you're still flying!:ooh:
edited to add. See you're grounded due medical. Bet they're missing you........;)

Lon More

26th Jun 2006, 08:57

Due to the football in Germany, NATO has an AWACS in the air over Germany in case a repeat of 911 should be attempted so any such incident is obviously being taken very seriously.

From conversation last night it seems the flight concerned was not on the usual direct route (Possibly on a radar vector when original contact was lost?).

There is often a possibility to contact the aircraft through, IIRC, Copengagen Radio, but I believe this requires SELCAL or HF.

Hi OT, seems they're still keeping you all busy

OscarTango

26th Jun 2006, 09:13

Okay, so as far as I can tell from the replies, is that there will be internal investigation, but he pilots will not receive any "spanking".

Fair enough, I guess the thought of being blown out of the sky, and the related stress when you see an F16 on your left side ( knowing that there's a second and possibly third one 1 NM behind with it's radar locked on you ) will make them more vigilant the next time they don't hear anything on the radio for more than 10 minutes :E

( Lon : we keep beating our record # of flights/day on a weekly bases, we're up to 47xx last Wednesday... )

ZS340

26th Jun 2006, 20:15

Hmm.....
Hope I'm not interfering to much here, must admit I have not read most of the posts on this thread because quite frankly I find niggling quite boring.

Getting back to the gist of the original post, we all listen out on 121.5 (or should do) and I find that in Europe transmittions on that frequency occur regularly and on a daily basis and are occuring so often that one tends to turn the volume down to mange the distracion particularly when one is in the terminal areas. The Swiss and French airspaces are particularly bad.

121.5 is an Emergency Frequency and should be used as such.....

Ignition Override

27th Jun 2006, 04:42

JonDC9: The number of blocked or partially-transmitted radio calls with almost no "hear-back" can cause enough problems. Think about how often we need three tries to contact a controller who is on the "land-line" with Cleveland or, heaven forbid, Wash. Center :uhoh: etc.

What? Flight Attendants resting feet in the c0ckp1t? No more, even if they had enough room. Anyway, many of the young ones got sort of old (and some quit)-so did many of us become older and more wrinkled, like aged, smoked-cured ham.:O

Because of the regs since 9/11, we never see them inflight (we gave up pilot crewmeals, among other foolish things, in order too finish a TA with those low-life b@$^@&^$), and many flights on a certain "classic" twin-turbofan are too short. If we go to the lav, they are up there for just a minute.
The old days are gone, and this is no exaggeration, at least on a classic type.

Sensible Garage

27th Jun 2006, 06:54

http://www.milspotters.nl/files/callsigns.xs4all.nl.mp3

GearDown&Locked

27th Jun 2006, 09:28

http://www.bulgarienreise.com/assets/images/hemus_air_boeing_737-400.jpg

Here's the plane

CargoOne

27th Jun 2006, 15:25

Just out of interest - are Belgium Air Forces are allowed to cross the border (say to France/UK/Netherlands/Germany) while on intercept mission?

OscarTango

27th Jun 2006, 15:48

Good one..don't know.

Having said, the fighters identified themselves as "Nato Air Defence", so that would lead me to believe that they can. But I have a friend who's in the Belgian Air Force...I'll ask and get back to you...

OT

Chippie Chappie

27th Jun 2006, 21:26

Would say that NATO co-ordinate intercepts but someone else can answer for sure.

Have to side with Jon the DC9 jockey on this one. Not because I'm critical of other pilots and think that I can always do better, far from it. I make mant errors myself for which I retropesctively slap myself on the forehead. No, I side with the old smoke maker because we need to be alert. If we start to justify our mistakes we are on a VERY slippery slope. I haven't been intercepted yet but been 'victim' of one of the afore mentioned events leading to a loss of radio contact. MY mistake, no-one else's. It will happen to others and probably to you. Be a professional and be alert (even at 2 a.m.) so that you don't look like a weekend warrior.

Up to you but 121.5 is REALLY easy to listen to. (Don't know who's transmitting a 'practice' pan-pan but if you're listening, this can be done without pressing the PTT.)
Cheers,
Chips

BEagle

29th Jun 2006, 13:18

More modern military radios also include band-associated Guard receivers. So, if you're on VHF you have 121.5 as the +G freq, on UHF 243.0.

Can't imagine much worse than having to monitor some company frequency - unless it has SelCal, perhaps.

Back in the old pre-123.45 Oceanic days, I once overheard a long and involved chat between Virgin and ba about "Have you got a Mr. (so-and-so) on board?" This went on for some minutes until they said they had. "Please tell him that Miss (someone-or-other) will meet him in the bar of the Hotel Whatever at 1800."

"Well, he won't be the only one then!"

"I'll be there"

"So will I!"

....came the replies in stereo from everyone else within 100 miles or so!