Search for the UK's most poorly paid PPL instructor [Archive]

Esperanza

20th Jun 2006, 17:47

This thread is a bit of mindless fun to look at the variation in PPL instructor pay. I know that at the school that I work for there are at least three different pay packages for what is basically the same job.
I've got a theory that schools in the south of England pay less than those north of the Midlands. Does anyone else agree?
Starting with my own conditions: Attendance £25/ Flying £15-18 per hour depending on type. So far this week I'm averaging £110 per day (working 0830-1700).
I appreciate that this is a bit of a naff thread; but I would be intrigued to know what the average pay is in the UK at the moment.

BigEndBob

20th Jun 2006, 18:24

So where are you, north or south.

Esperanza

20th Jun 2006, 18:29

I'm located in the north; but only by a little bit.

Dude~

21st Jun 2006, 09:22

Esperanza

21st Jun 2006, 10:19

Good idea "Dude". I've just changed it myself to make it more positive.

ph81ds

21st Jun 2006, 15:10

£10 a day, then £12 per flying hour FI(R). Down south.

ph

Esperanza

21st Jun 2006, 16:40

£10 a day, then £12 per flying hour FI(R). Down south.
ph
Thank you for the reply.
That's exactly what I was getting as an AFI (old timers term for FI(R) ) in 1994. I wonder if flying school owners have heard of inflation?

Whispering Wings

21st Jun 2006, 18:02

of course they have, they call it profit!:mad:

jerezflyer

21st Jun 2006, 19:07

Mods, following the first thread, can we re-name this thread "Search for the UK's best paid Flying Instructor"?
How about no retainer and 12 quid an hour, sometimes coming home worse off after paying for petrol and food…

That shows that there is absolutely no respect what so ever for what I think is one of what should be one of the most beautiful professions on this planet - teaching people how to fly!

I am 36 with a PPL and aspire to becoming a flying instructor, although due to the terrible "lack of respect" wages it will have to part time at weekends for me.......

QNH 1013

21st Jun 2006, 20:15

T's and P's,

If you are having trouble getting paid for the hours you have worked, cut your losses and leave for another school.

I am a self-employed instructor and have worked for several schools; the one thing I have never had to do is chase them for my money, and instructors are now in short supply.

Anyone can work for free. If a school will not pay promptly for your work, cut your losses quickly and move elsewhere. If someone treats you like that, it won't get better, it will only get worse.

By the way, in my experience, the minimum pay per hour for a FI(R) is £15. £10 is way too low. That also says something about the outfit you are working for.

18greens

21st Jun 2006, 20:48

What grim stories. I was very lucky to land my first FI job with a large school(uniform, test flight, checkout and standards flying all included). No limit to the flying available, good aircraft , very professional and £20 per hour.

I wandered away to find what non level flying I can do and the pickings become decidedly rarer. Lucky to pick up an hour a day at £15 /hour and you are expected to pay for your conversions. It rarely covers the cost of the petrol to get there.

However you can't miss the grin you can put on peoples faces. Definately worth it.

bogbeagle

21st Jun 2006, 21:51

Sherburn Aero Club

Unrestricted @ £16.50/hour. No retainer. No perks. Must be self-employed. If you don't like it....eff off.

bogbeagle

vetflyer

22nd Jun 2006, 06:43

perhaps you should change your name to BogoffBeagle :sad:

Dude~

22nd Jun 2006, 08:06

I must admit I didn’t stay on £12 hour for long, I later got £17 hour which when the sun shines is not too bad, but it still means you can't be sure about being able to pay the rent until about half way through the month which can be stressful...

I’m now on £30 a day retainer and £13 an hour. I get a higher hourly rate if I fly on my days off. Not so bad at all I think.

As someone said, there is good demand for FIs now, so if you are getting peanuts, do have a look around, and don't forget to haggle! Its well worth trying to get a rise/ checkride paid for/ interview costs etc...

rmcdonal

22nd Jun 2006, 08:28

unfazed

22nd Jun 2006, 08:42

It would be interesting to factor in the actual time "on duty" plus any retainer when working out "Hourly" rate

From my example "minimum wage" is not something that is applied for FI jobs

Not unusual to work 10 hours and only fly 3

Lets say £60 (before tax) deduct travel costs £50 and divide by 10 = £5 hour - Looks like I just made it on an average day ! and that's on a "reasonable" hourly flying rate. If it rains then lets hope it stays wet all day and I only loose my time and £10 petrol money.

Now lets compare to car mechanics and plumbers who charge £80 an hour which is much more sensible if you want to pay the bills and make some profit!
Anyway must dash as I have a 6 month £150 quid medical to attend (no wonder my wife thinks I am nuts).:bored:

boogie-nicey

22nd Jun 2006, 13:43

Sounds kind of intersting but I was under the impression that instructors earnt so little that £200 per month was the norm everywhere. Thank God that's the not the reality of the situation though from reading some of your posts there are some instances where a bad or 'washed out' day can result in little if any salary.

Due to these conditions is there constant movement of instrcutional staff from one organisation to another and also do groundschool staff get tarred with the same salary brush?

Anyway chin up lads and lasses at least we're not stuck behind a desk (salary=maybe/yes soul destroying=on character building=minimal prospect=here until replaced by cheaper person/or outsourced overseas) :ok:

Esperanza

22nd Jun 2006, 16:19

Looks to me like they pay UK instructors a small fortune.
Head down to the great world of OZ, where a Fresh instructor works for free until the boss is happy and then around $20hr after that. Convert that into £. :yuk: :ouch: :ugh:
Interesting. I've heard before that the pay in Oz isn't exactly brilliant. As a new starter, if you offer to pay your boss does he let you work longer hours? :rolleyes:

bogbeagle

22nd Jun 2006, 16:53

Vetflyer,

Sorry if I offended you. My post was a bit ambiguous.

I should have made it clear that I was talking about the attitude of Sherburn's management towards its flying instructors. The attitude is, " if you don't like it, eff off."

However, a couple of weeks' ago, I received a notification from the Inland Revenue which stated that all of the club's instructors must be treated as employees. This will force major changes in the club's policy towards us.

Times, I hope, are a-changing.

bogbeagle

vetflyer

22nd Jun 2006, 17:28

BogBeagle

No problem

Sorry, I read the message as that was your attitude......hopefully times are changing but ......i am not hopeful as I am on £12.50/hr and no retainer.........

One thing that really annoys me , private hire of me in owner's a/c , club charges owner £46 per hr and I get £12.50!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ugh:

Esperanza

22nd Jun 2006, 17:45

"Vetflyer", like you I'm not hopeful that things will change. Unfortunately part of the problem is that as long as people continue to agree to work for a pittance then employers are going to take advantage of them. We're our own worse enemies.
The last time that I was "between jobs" it took me three months, a lot of CV's/ phone calls, and numerous discussions with employers who wanted me to work for next to nothing before I found my current job. Basically it's not easy.

A and C

22nd Jun 2006, 18:01

The reason that I charge instructors for a check flight is there have been a number who turn up fly the free hour with the CFI and never come back.

Charging for the check flight gets rid of 99% of the jokers and I am very happy to refund the cost of the check flight after three months satisfactory service.

It is very hard to make any money in GA and I don't do it to get rich but the attitude of some instructors just gets them the treatment that they deserve, and the way some clubs treat there instructors gets the club owners the instructors that they deserve.

Esperanza

22nd Jun 2006, 19:06

"A and C", where did the above comment spring from? Have I missed something?
I find it very hard to believe that people turn up for interview with the sole intention of getting a free hours flying. Are you sure that the reason that prospective employees don't return is due to the fact that they only wanted a free flight and not the terms of employment offered to them by yourself? Personally, I wouldn't contemplate attending an interview/ working for a company that wanted to charge me for the pleasure.

porridge

22nd Jun 2006, 20:53

Best paid PPL instructor in the UK? Well it depends how you play things!
1. The best paid are definitely are the Microlight 3 Axis (PPL only to be one) - £60 per hour! Recently did a job up near Tatenhill for a FAA Tail wheel conversion and on questioning the client why he was happy to pay for my flight and Commercial Instructor time to do this I worked out it would have cost the client about the same to get the ML PPL FI to accompany him down to my airfield for the checkout. Esperanza you may recall when I was up there a couple of weeks ago?
2. FAA instruction - mainly you can name your own price and you don't need to work through an FTO or a RTF - myself I charge out at £50/hour whether it is ground or airborne and I'm cheap apparently as many, FAA only qualified, charge much, much more!
The answer is apparently - find a way to cut out the middleman!

vetflyer

22nd Jun 2006, 21:45

Esperanza
indeed we are 'We're our own worse enemies.' especially those who will fly for free :ugh:

A and C please expland on attitudes of instructors deserving getting paid so little.

Especially why clubs charge approx 4 times what i get paid for private hire ie no overheads.

thanks

badgerpuppy

23rd Jun 2006, 02:54

when i was instructing, i was getting £25 per hour, £35 for imc training, flying about 40 hours per month and doing quite nicely thankyou very much in comparison to some of my mates.
The thing i always wondered was, if gordon the tosser would do something about the amount of tax we all have to pay on avgas whenever we use it, would there be a bit more fat to help a constantly struggling side of our industry.
Perhaps some more of the guys who really enjoy teaching would be able to stick around a bit longer and the quality of the pilots being licenced would be a bit more consistent.

just a thought.:ugh:

Gugnunc

23rd Jun 2006, 12:42

There's an interesting thread in Wannabes's - Jobs, Interviews etc; "wot the f's happening in Scotland" that seems to suggest that the days of hour building FI's are soon to be over, as the regional TP's are ignoring the local experienced FI's for 200 hr integrated types.

If this is really the case, then almost overnight the supply of frozen ATPL's wanting to instruct to get hours is going to vanish. Why hour build for 12-18 months on simple SE when the airline is only interested in your youth and graduation from Cabair/OAT?

Appalling for modular people, but the small bit of good news is that the dearth of new instructors will force wages up and may make career instructing more viable.

ps I have an axe to grind on the subject (career instructing & decent wages). So read my post with that in mind!:)

Kaptain Kremen

23rd Jun 2006, 12:55

Vetflyer

"Especially why clubs charge approx 4 times what i get paid for private hire ie no overheads."

True, but it's not quite that simple. The school will have to likely pay to be at the airfield, mostly, and so in the overall business plan will have to charge more than just the instructor fee. Also, in theory, that would mean that if every student turned up in their own aircraft and the school charged only the instructor wages they would earn no £ and that would mean no school = no instructor. The school in some cases will be paying for their buildings, electricity, phone calls to arrange the flight, reception etc etc etc. That's business, not as simple as "no overheads".

Now, whether it needs to be 4 x the instructor fee is of course debatable, but depends on those overheads.

unfazed

23rd Jun 2006, 13:08

Kapten Kretin

I agree that what you describe is the norm but I don't think that it is ethical or necessary.

In the UK flight PPL training makes an overall loss and clubs are being "subsidised" into profit by professional flying instructors which is unethical and sharp business practice.

What I have noticed is that CFI's recruit a new batch of instructors each summer without any regard for the existing FI's who now have their income slashed when they have survived a lean winter and should be flying and earning good money. This p@$£ses off the instructors who start job hunting in earnest so that they don't have to suffer another dismal winter in la la land. No doubt the CFI would argue that they will be jumping ship for an airline at the drop of a hat in the autumn so he is just protecting the clubs interests.

From what I can see it is a mutually abusive relationship founded on distrust, greed and exploitation.:mad:

The only person winning is the salaried CFI who is doing well by the high turnover of eager new FI's who do all of the circuit bashing while he creams off all of the more lucrative flying for himself and his buddy.

Kaptain Kremen

23rd Jun 2006, 14:27

Unfazed,

Fair point, but like I said the amount charged depends on other factors and not simply the instructors pay. And, as i said, whether the amount charged needs to be that high is debatable.

Was that a typo for my name by the way or just plain ignorance normally reserved for Jet Blast?:confused:
KK

unfazed

23rd Jun 2006, 15:15

Captain Kremen

It was a bit of wry humour but as it has caused offence - apologies !

Why put the overheads on the FI charges ?

Stick them on the hourly rate much fairer and more transparent

When you charge double what the instructor gets we are talking taking the Pi£ss !:)

Kaptain Kremen

23rd Jun 2006, 15:58

Unfazed - missed the humour, no worries! :ok:

Why put the overheads on the FI charges ?
Obviously a school is trying to earn a living and there should be some profit, especially if you are not using a club aircraft where you would normally earn it. However, double the instructor fee is as you rightly say, extracting the wee.
I know at my school we pay quite well and that tends to keep your instructor with you, unless an airline job arrives. But this is clearly no surprise to us and we wish them well when they go - well done!
But it is a hard industry to earn your keep and instructor wages suffer undoubtedly. This is not always the schools fault but more of the high costs generally involved, and i can honestly say that loads of profit is not creamed off to the CFI/owner here!
KK

Esperanza

23rd Jun 2006, 18:44

Seeing as this topic appears to be going off at a bit of a tangent I'll bring up another point. Holiday pay. If you're a full time employee do you receive holiday pay? If the answer is no, then are you aware that you're entitled to it by law? If I didn't receive holiday pay then I would be down approximately £2000/year. Therefore it's certainly worth fighting for. Hopefully somebody will be able to come up with a link to prove this (I'm still a bit of a novice when it comes to computer jiggery pokery).
No real surprises have arisen from what I've read so far. It looks as if we're all in pretty much the same position. I'll follow any upcoming responses and thoughts with interest.
That's enough from me. I'll stop now before a bounty is put on my head. I hope that you all have a good summer. :)

vetflyer

24th Jun 2006, 08:28

KK
Point taken and as you say clubs need some income , but 4 times ! perhaps a even split ?

UnF
'mutually abusive relationship founded on distrust, greed and exploitation'

about sums it up!

If no money in PPL trg , why not..........look in carpark, the new expensive cars are owned by the students who usually have money ...then we train them in 35yo heaps with half equipment u/s

........surely some of these people are willing to pay a little bit more for a better teaching environment?

But it has ever been thus!

Kaptain Kremen

24th Jun 2006, 10:10

I look in our car park and see a mix of wealth, i suppose thats why the flying fraternity is so great to be in - so many people from varied back grounds. we should be trying to keep costs down so that more people can enjoy our fabulous hobby/vocation. i guess that there are some ways to keep costs down (not sure where though) although i agree it shouldn't be at the expense of a professional instructor.
If we can find some way of keeping running costs sensible, because they are crazy, then more could be paid towards instructors wages. As a school operator i know how tight the margins really are and a worry is that higher charges to the customer will reduce your student base and make things worse. Personally, our instructors are paid above average and with a retainer as well, several good perks and certainly no fee for a check ride. So, we keep them longer - good business sense i reckon. But, this means we are always having to keep an eye on other expenses. It's a good job we love flying.
Thoughts?

bogbeagle

25th Jun 2006, 07:38

I'm not at all convinced that a reduction in a school's running costs will lead to an improvement in instructor' pay. Such a reduction might come from, say, reduced taxation upon Avgas, or reduced bureaucracy.

It seems to me that any such cost reduction would affect all schools pretty much equally. So, the overall cost to the consumer might fall, but the schools would still be competing on the same basis that they do at present....and instructor' pay would again be under pressure as each school tries to "out-cheap" the other.

bogbeagle

vetflyer

25th Jun 2006, 08:51

BogBeagle

I think you are right ....any reduction would be used to increase profits.

It is the same elsewhere.. say stable owners use young girls' love of horses to get them to work for nothing. We fly because we like to.....

....doubt if ever will change until the workers control means of production......ooops :O

VFE

25th Jun 2006, 19:45

Instructor pays goes up = the cost of learning to fly goes up = less people learning to fly = instructors fly less = instructors pay not so good.

"I eat because I'm unhappy, and I'm unhappy because I eat - it's a vicious circle" :}

VFE.

vetflyer

25th Jun 2006, 23:57

VFE
So Instructors pay is the main factor in the cost of training ! Not repair bills for old a/c? Not cost of fuel?

So if instructors worked for £5 per flying , they would get more take home pay as more people start learning to fly?

I don't think so ........

VFE

26th Jun 2006, 08:37

I did not say it was the main factor in the cost of learning to fly did I?

I was just responding to the calls of raising the instructor wage with all the other factors set the same.

VFE.

Jaydee27

26th Jun 2006, 09:32

Considered myself very lucky - £18ph initially. Then 16K pa, increasing a couple of months later to 18K. PPL instruction mainly...

high voltage

26th Jun 2006, 12:05

You will be paid as little as the club can get away with, or you allow yourself to. Negotiate the fairest deal possible and you should be happy.

VFE

26th Jun 2006, 15:14

£5 for turning up at one place I know. That just about covers dinner in the airfield canteen whilst watching the rain make pretty patterns in the puddles then. :}

VFE.

combineharvester

26th Jun 2006, 19:14

T&C's at my palce of work are currently under review, more than likely due to the sherburn incident with the revenue mentioned above, however at the mo its:

Restricted:£10/Hr for flying and solo time. no retainer
De-Restricted £15/hr (as above)

There are also other extras: The demands of the business require the use of a minibus. FI's paid £40 a day to drive it. When its broke and students transported in FI's own vehicle (appropriately insured) its £25 a day.

on paper does not sound as glamourous as others, but there is a good OTE due to the format of the training.

ch

StuartRawlinson

2nd Jul 2006, 18:00

Hi guys and gals,

A medium size outfit in sussex pay £15 retainer per month and £15 for PPL training as an FI, a few more punds paid for IMC etc.

Instructors work as ltd companies so they can effetively work as self employed and stay legal, no perks though :(

Esperanza

2nd Jul 2006, 18:30

pay £15 retainer per month
Is the £15/ month retainer some kind of limited company/ legal requirement? If not then it seems to be a bit of a funny figure to come up with (75p/ day). I'm guessing that you would be better off sitting outside your local supermarket with a begging bowl.:confused:

BigGrecian

4th Jul 2006, 00:36

What about the JAA instructors abroad - I know of one school where they are paid $10 an hour, no retainer, no perks. To add to that of course they are all both fully JAA & FAA qualified.

Say again s l o w l y

4th Jul 2006, 08:02

They should get themselves over to the U.K, an FAA instructor can pretty much set their price at the moment with so many a/c on the N reg. and very few who can do Biannuals.

outbacknightpilots

22nd Jul 2006, 07:22

I have to be self employed, no reatainer, i get £7 for a trial lesson, normally 30-45 mins, normally get about 150-200 week full time...... hmm... im in the wrong profession.. (well i cant wait for the start date for my Q400 TRC)

HZ123

22nd Jul 2006, 16:34

Not my place to comment but my son having 14 hours now does an hour or so each month and that is just under £200 per hour. I am shocked and concerned at the rates of pay per hour you guys quote.

Craggenmore

27th Jul 2006, 08:52

When I instructed 2005-06 (close to Jct 11 M25,) I received £500 basic per month then £9 per flying hour on top, plus pension and health benefits if I chose! :}

Esperanza

28th Jul 2006, 07:34

This meant that on a good year you could earn about £17000 which is good for an FI
Judging from the previous responses £17000/ year does appear to be almost as good as it gets. Having said that it still isn't a lot of money. I wonder if there are any other jobs where professional people are prepared to work for these kind of figures.
I'm relatively lucky where I am. I usually expect/ hope to earn a little over £20000/ year. Fingers crossed for a good Autumn/ Winter.:uhoh:

NorthSouth

2nd Aug 2006, 22:17

No no, you're all wrong, instructors obviously can't even count the fifty pound notes being stuffed into their sweaty mits. AOPA has just published a report comparing PPL training costs in various countries in Europe and it says instructor pay in the UK is £50-60 an hour (see this month's General Aviation p.13).
NS

windbreak

3rd Aug 2006, 02:53

Hi Everyone.

So why not look to the Far East like Malaysia for instructing carrier there are three flying academy's here that are all employing and crying out for instructors with all experiences.

You may not get £££ rich here with the exchange rate but its a regular salary and you can have a good quality of life including a nice condo with pool, car etc and put money in the bank.

so do an INTERNET search on these company's and send those CV's (B4 the winter comes and the pay go's)

Malaysian Flying Academy is one ! :ok:

Opsdog

8th Aug 2006, 21:25

Could this certain organisation at EGTB be the lowest payer?

£8.00 per hour, no allowances, no staff flying rates, no recompense for licensing / ratings, insistence on working a full day whether there is any flying or not (plenty of work to do though), can work out at £0.00 per hour.

Can anybody beat that????

Glad I paid them so much for a CPL IR. Mind you they do have a smart fleet****%^&*".

Glad I've got that off my chest, can get the blood pressure down for my next medical now.:*

vetflyer

8th Aug 2006, 21:57

Nope, they do seem to be fairly s%^&e conditions..........congrats ........u r the winner !?

NorthSouth

9th Aug 2006, 08:13

Benix

9th Aug 2006, 13:41

That really is shockingly bad, and especially since you're in the saaarf where I always thought instructors drove around in BMWs bought on the £50-60 per hour (plus ground instruction pay) which AOPA says they get (see latest issue of General Aviation, p.13).
yeah right..... worked at the same place but was getting £10ph no retainer (nothing for ground school) went up from £8ph in January this year. Its disgusting to be honest from what they charge students.

hugh flung_dung

9th Aug 2006, 14:04

lady in red

13th Aug 2006, 19:00

When I was doing PPL work I was paid £15 retainer per day and £12.50 per flying hour. This did not go up in the 6 years I worked there (down South), but I got onto other stuff like CPL, FIC and IR which was paid a little better. What I find so inexplicable is that most students have no idea that you are paid so badly and when a private owner wants you to do a biennial or some IMC refresher with you they are more than happy to pay whatever you ask - I asked for £50 per hour recently and the lady owner said I was "too cheap" and that she charges £1200 per day as a consultant!! Perhaps it is time we valued ourselves as professionals and started charging ourselves at realistic rates - after all, look what you have to pay to the accountant, solicitor or even your physio....

Flingingwings

14th Aug 2006, 09:36

IMHO the hourly rate is only a small part of the problem.

Whilst Instructors should place more value in themselves, employers shoudl also do likewise :mad:

I really feel for the new guys and gals, desperate to fly and recoup some of the staggering costs and facing high competition, many companies will treat them extremely poorly and expect them to be grateful for it :mad:

It was the case when I started and it meant that after less than six months I wanted out. Not from instructing, but away from the clowns I worked for (bullying, liars, thieves, incompetent). With some experience I'm now far more selective. I'm grateful for work BUT not desperate.

Perhaps another thread could be the 'The Uk's most poorly treated Instructor'?

Agree FI's should be better paid, but there are too many looking for work for any leverage to be applied on the smaller employers. Best option is if you find a company thats not worth working for, slowly look elsewhere, and when you've gone try to advise newly qualified FI's to look elsewhere also.

When the lower end of the companies realise that they need FI's and a ready stream of slaves are no longer willing to work (in the loosest sense) for them, these parasites will either go bust or improve their attitudes:D

I can't be the only one thats had to listen to some idiot explain that 'The industry can only survive this way' and 'when I started we had to eat our own clothes and were thankful if we were allowed to sweep the hangar let alone fly'. Perhaps those still living in the dark ages should return there.

I really don't miss that sort of cr@p. Its a long hard slog, but for some worth it at the end. If, one day I become CFI/CP and I'm no better feel free to form an orderly queue and give me the slapping I'll deserve :eek:

Fancy Navigator

14th Aug 2006, 16:13

When I was doing PPL work I was paid £15 retainer per day and £12.50 per flying hour.....

Hi,

By quoting these figures, do you mean you actually earn (roughly):
£15*300 days= £4500 + 700 hours*12.50 = 8750 ? Grand total of £13250 a year (rough estimate)? Is this before or after tax?

Having considered myself going down the instructor route for a while, this is not very encouraging, above all when you have more than that amount of debt (CPL/IR) to repay!!!:mad: :ugh: :sad: := :eek: :(

Thanks for your replies.

FNav

lady in red

14th Aug 2006, 21:06

Fancy Navigator
Actually it was worse than that as the £15 per day only related to 20 days a month so the other way of looking at it if you want to work 30 days a month is £300 a month retainer and max PPL hours I ever did in a year was about 550 total. You do not need an IR to be an instructor so my advice to the prospective instructor would be - why not do the instructor rating instead and save the money on the IR until you have a significant amount of experience under your belt?

I actually agree with Flingingwings' post about not just valuing yourself but being valued. It is not just about the employer valuing you, but the whole of the industry has to value instructors. They simply do not. We are the most valuable part of the pilot chain because it is through our good training that the basic skills and habits are instilled in the future airline pilot or instructor, yet we are treated like the lowest form of the food chain. It is virtually impossible to undo sloppily taught habits and disciplines and it is the accident statistics that reflect shoddy teaching practices - namely failure to understand the importance of use of carb heat, inability to calculate fuel consumption, weight and balance, field length required etc.

We have, however, to earn and deserve the accolade of professionals and in order to do that we ought to pay attention to everything, even our spelling and grammar in these posts, as this reflects on our own self-respect, attitude to standards and communication ability. I must say I despair of the appalling grammar and spelling on these Fora (plural of Forum as data is the plural of datum) - it clearly reflects the lack of attention to detail displayed by the authors.

Fancy Navigator

14th Aug 2006, 22:18

Fancy Navigator
Actually it was worse than that as the £15 per day only related to 20 days a month so the other way of looking at it if you want to work 30 days a month is £300 a month retainer and max PPL hours I ever did in a year was about 550 total...

Sorry to ask again, but these figures are before or after tax? ;)
Would make a big difference!

Say again s l o w l y

14th Aug 2006, 22:51

Before...........:\

JUST-local

14th Aug 2006, 23:47

It depends how you look at your small pay packet!
The instructors slice is a fairly large slice of a very small pie, I'm not condoning it just trying to justify it, it seems to boil down to the marketable price of a flying lesson, at any level of training, from the trial lesson/air experience flight through to commercial/IR training. If you work backwards from the retail price of any training flight the money is all spoken for. Insurance, capital investment/ finance, maintenance, lifed components, FUEL!, approvals/infrastructure etc.....
Engineers are in a similar position (albeit they can mend when the viz is 200m) the retail cost of aircraft maintenance/repair is low £30-£50/ hour retail the engineer/fitter again gets a fairly large slice of a small pie, anywhere from national minimum for a new starter to £20/hour for a licensed hard worker.....
The obvious answer would be to double the price of everything and we could all have a well deserved pay rise and do a lot less flying as another large amount of pilot training is lost to overseas providers!
Where’s that old bone dome.....:oh:

BEagle

15th Aug 2006, 19:05

I get paid £0.00 per hour for flight instruction.

I teach on the ground for free.

I charge that miserable fat barsteward Gordon-the-grasping 40p per mile for any mileage involved with anything to do with being a UK/FE PPL.

I do charge for Flight Examining - at the going rate. It covers the cost of 6-monthly medicals and my revalidations - but that's about all.

I charge nothing for ground exams or debriefs.

I have had a career in aviation and now I'm helping others to do the same.

JUST-local

15th Aug 2006, 21:06

I know a few instructors who charge the same £0.00! This upsets many instructors who do it as a living but I know a few flying schools/ clubs that would probably not be around if it was not for dedicated people giving up a day in there weekend for the last 10 + years!

ormus55

15th Aug 2006, 23:25

im amazed at some of the comments on this subject. shocked at the rate of pay of some FI,s.

think that some employers are skating on thin ice re self employed staff.
mr brown has made it plain that any person attending a regular employer/place of work is an employee, and is not self employed.
making yourself a limited company and hiring out yourself, (in effect a manpower agency), just wont wash in these situations.

if it was your own aircraft then that would probably be ok though.

still cant believe my local plumber makes 2x/3x the money a FI does!
and a kitchen fitter near me, earns 50k per annum!
ps. they both turn work away!

pps. i earn more than some of you, (part time computer engineer).
:sad:

bogbeagle

17th Aug 2006, 13:13

A while back, I posted some information regarding a Status check which is being carried out by HM Revenue and Customs.

The club at which I work (Sherburn), is being assessed by HMRC in order to see whether it is complying with current regulation wrt employment of its flying instructors.

This has been going on for about 18 months, now.

I have been informed by HMRC that I am to be regarded as an employee... as are all of my colleagues. I understand that the club's directors are challenging the assessment that has been made. This means that the case will be presented to a body which is called the Revenue Commission ( I think). The opinion of this Commission is legally enforceable, I understand.

The implications of this decision may well be nation-wide, so it is very important.

I have been put under some pressure to help to make a case FOR self-employment. So far, I have refused. I guess that, when the dust settles, I will find myself a casualty.

I've read the comments which have been posted. It's clear that many instructors are distressed by their working conditions. IMHO, the removal of the "self-employment" loophole would be a major step in advancing the instructors' lot.

At present, there is a complete imbalance of power between the school' owners and the instructors. Often, I think, this leads to exploitation of the latter. This is most certainly my experience.

Further, this imbalance does nothing to promote responsible flying and instruction....at my school, briefings are rare...only Hobbs hours really count. The result is that most students are quite poorly prepared for their Skill Tests, in terms of procedural skills, rather than handling skills. Most of us teach down to a price, I think.

Commercial pressures also are brought to bear upon examiners. One external examiner of my acquaintance was recently collared by the director of a flying club and asked to facilitate the club's flying hours by being more lenient on flight tests. The implication, of course, is that, "if you want to examine here, you'll make sure that our candidates pass their Skill Tests".

BEagle, I am really saddened to hear that you instruct for free, thereby weakening the position of all the instructors who are trying to scratch a living. I'll wager that, when you were sitting on your flight deck, you would have been up in arms had someone offered to do your job for no pay. You could take the money and donate it to a worthy cause, if your conscience troubles you.

bogbeagle

NorthSouth

17th Aug 2006, 13:32

IMHO, the removal of the "self-employment" loophole would be a major step in advancing the instructors' lotAs far as I can make out there isn't a loophole. HMRC thinks all instructors should be employees. I think this is grossly unfair. I work part-time at two flying schools. I'm never at either more than one day a week. About a quarter of what I earn as an instructor disappears in petrol money to get there and back. If I wasn't self-employed I'd have to pay all of that. If I'm self-employed I can claim 23% of it back, plus the same for medicals, revalidations etc. If I couldn't do that there's no way I could afford to be an instructor even for only one day a week.
As regards instructors flying for free, it's an inevitable part of the industry I fear. But charging nothing for instructing while at the same time setting your instructing/examining expenses against tax does sound rather like having your cake and eating it.
NS

QNH 1013

17th Aug 2006, 20:36

I, like many instructors am self-employed. There is no way I could be considered an employee. I choose where and when I accept work. I provide my own tools of the trade ( charts, approach plates, etc ). I pay for all my medicals, revalidation flight tests etc. I am vat registered and charge vat on all my invoices. I also decide how much I charge per hour, or day, and what expenses I pass on as a charge.

Anyway, its how you work that determines whether or not you are self employed or an employee. It is not determined by the type of work you do; which in this case is instructing

BigGrecian

17th Aug 2006, 21:20

OpsDog - I think the 10US$ an hour wins - as we get nothing at all other than that. Everyone is JAA and FAA qualified.

hugh flung_dung

17th Aug 2006, 22:26

There are a number of "tests" used to determine whether someone is self-employed; these include: control of what work you do and when you do it, how the work is done, who corrects errors, whether you provide your own equipment (aircraft, headset, charts, instructional gizzmos), who pays for maintenance of ratings and medicals, who finds a replacement if you are unable to work (illness, etc), and several others. By careful use of these "tests" it should be possible for people who genuinely are self-employed to prove it.
Maybe one (slightly devious?) scheme would be for a school to provide a loan to the instructor so that they could part-own an aircraft and therefore provide some of their own equipment - that would need some careful preparation.

Bogbeagle
I'm always surprised at the "us and them" attitude that some people perpetuate - in most industries this dissappeared decades ago and, if there are areas of the flying training industry where it still exists, it needs to be beaten to death. We all need to help with this. Organisations always work better when people work as a team and understand each others viewpoints - this benefits everyone.
BTW, I agree with your point about charging.

HFD