Can perform open heart surgery, not allowed to apply bandaid!

[Mark M'Words]

I've been flying for more than.....well put it this way when I started sex was safe and flying was fun! Now I've three kids and eldest daughter who knows daddy flies planes asked if I could take her flying in a little aeroplane, well the lump in my throat was probably visible but manfully I managed to hold in the tear.

I've 15000 hours, UK ATPL, US ATP, 757 Captain, so I thought a quick phone call to the friendly people at the CAA would help. Now I know I've not flown a single piston for a while now but the requirements to revalidate ones PPL privilages are nothing short of amazing, that allied to the cost of private flying in the UK means flight simulation on the computer will have to do for now.

I fully understand that flying commercially with the autopilot in is totally different to flying around the west coast of Scotland on a nice day, but the controls still work in the same sense don't they. I naiively thought a couple of hours or so with an instructor, quick check and of you go, but it's not to be. Is anyone else out there equally bemused?:confused:

[Sky Wave]

Please tell us more. What are the requirements.

Being a fATPL holder I'm hopeful that this will be my year to make it into the airlines. When that happens, should I keep my SEP & MEP current to avoid problems getting them back in the future?

Cheers

SW

[FLEXPWR]

Hi there,
The whole european aviation is becoming a joke when it comes to this kind of situation. Take your daughter on holidays in the US, nearest flying club will ask you for 2 or 3 circuit and off you go enjoy the day flying with your little one.
I personaly did not even bother. I had to convert my FAA into JAR license, and since I did it on a multicrew aircraft, I have no right to fly anything but multicrew/multiengine aircraft. (Flying today left seat on a 4 engine jet --almost-- BAe146 :} and 4500 hours TT)
Welcome to Europe :ugh: :ugh:

[ETOPS]

Mark M'Words

I have been keeping my PPL privileges current (called SEP in your CAA licence) not through hours flown per year, but revalidation tests with a local examiner. The flying club charges £100 hour for a two seater and we were all done in just under 60 minutes last month.

It is much cheaper to keep the min reqirements for pax flying up to date by renting in the USA (time logged abroad counts for the 3 landings etc) thus I can (on occasions) take the kids for a quick spin in the UK without breaking the bank............

[JW411]

I found myself in a similar situation two years ago. I bought a light aircraft and realised that I had not held an SEP Rating for 22 years. I came to the conclusion that I had forgotten a hell of a lot about little aeroplanes during that period.

I joined a local flying club and flew 5 flights (totalling 3 hrs 50 mins) before I felt back up to speed and then flew a renewal flight with an examiner (1 hour) which went very well.

I am very glad that I did it. There is a long list of experienced professional pilots like me who have ended up as statistics when going back to little aeroplanes.

[wombat13]

I came across this problem at the field where I obtained my PPL about week after it was issued. Commercial guy comes in (not quite with your hours) and gets told no-way without jumping through hoops that were so complicated he walked away with his young son in tow.

Me on the other hand cleared to take three passengers, with sixty hours total flying time, 25 of which were P1. OK, I was not going to do take my kids, but that is not the point.

Might I suggest a visit to your local GA field and find a pilot who will be happy to let you "sit" in the rhs with your daughter behind? Probably the quickest solution.

The Wombat

[Baywatcher]

JW411

Is that all you had to do?I am interested as am in same situation.

[JW411]

Baywatcher:

No, that was it although I also did some reading (a borrowed Trevor Thom APM 1).

It was all very straightforward and the CAA sent back the SEP rating by return of post.

[tom775257]

It isn't that bad. We just had a 340 captain in to get his SEP renewal. 2 hours training and a 1 hour test and he was done - he hadn't flown a single for over 20 years if memory serves. At the end of the day surely worth the training so you stand a chance if the engine fails. The requirements for the SEP renewal can be found in LASORS from caa.co.uk

[RogerIrrelevant69]

For a jolly while away on holidays, it's not worth the effort going through the training and test. I've done a few jollys like this and decided to skip the hassle and go along with a safety pilot. Saves a lot of time and money.

But if you are at home, then it's probably not such a big deal. A few hours + test would do the trick. Having got my CPL in a Seneca, I always find going back to fly a Warrior or C172 incredibly easy (and that includes landings – usually…) principally because everything is happening at virtually half the speed I got used to.

That's not to say I would get complacent about it, got to be vigilant after all, but you've got so much more time to be vigilant :)

[Final 3 Greens]

I came across this problem at the field where I obtained my PPL about week after it was issued. Commercial guy comes in (not quite with your hours) and gets told no-way without jumping through hoops that were so complicated he walked away with his young son in tow.

Me on the other hand cleared to take three passengers, with sixty hours total flying time, 25 of which were P1. OK, I was not going to do take my kids, but that is not the point.

A few years ago, I flew in a spam can with a jet transport pilot who hadn't flown SEPs for a good few years and he had trouble keeping the airspeed of a SEP within +/- 10 knots on short final the first couple of times, on a bumpy gusty day.

I'm sure that in general he was a far more accurate pilot than I ever will be but currency on type is important.

Moral of the story, don''t knock the currency of your time on type.

[what next]

Hi!

Lets put it the other way round: Over 2000 hours I have perfected the art of landing single engined light aircraft in gusting crosswinds that reach one half of the landing speed of the plane, have flown "YFR" in what must be about the world's most regulated airspace (apart from France...) thereby risking to lose my expensive ATPL on nearly every flight, and all this while constantly fighting against the shortcomings of forty year old hardware and electronics of the most unreliable kind ever built by humans.

But I can play a videogame as well as anybody else and I can press autopilot buttons as well as anybody else and I would even go so far and bet that I can enter a flightplan into an FMS faster than most (becáuse I practised this often enough on hand-held-GPS units that have only four keys instead of 50) - and yet they dont invite me to fly their Airbusses and Boeings :rolleyes:


But seriously: Most of my colleagues who went to the airlines have lost their SEP class ratings when JAR-FCL was introduced. Theoretically, one check ride with an examiner per year is enough to keep the SEP (VFR) rating valid (JAR-FCL 1.245). For some pilots this may be enough, but would you let _your_ child fly with someone who flies only one hour on type per year?

As an instructor, I have prepared a few very experienced airline pilots for these checkrides, and the most common problems are:

- Lack of patience: A short final in a C152 with a bit of a headwind lasts nearly as long as the complete ILS in an airliner. In attempting to speed-up things, some pilots will fly much to fast on final and have difficulty to get the aircraft down on a short runway...
- Flare too high
- Overly strict adherence to memorised operating procedures: One pilot asked me for rotation and climb speed, and when the first was reached, he called "Go:Rotate!" and tried to pull his usual 12 deegrees of pitch (in a Cessna 152) ... luckily these things are well protected against tailstrikes and the runway was long enough for another attempt ;)
- VFR flying (airspace structure!).

But of course I agree: JAR-FCL really tends to over-regulate in many areas.

Greetings, Max

[ExSimGuy]

Having flown thousands of hours in "heavies" - at 10 feet above the ground, I finally made my way to a C152 and was astounded as the instructor took off - at a speed which I thought unimaginable!

Very different!

[Fuji Abound]

I fly occasionally with a couple of commercial guys who whilst not as "out of currency" on SEPs as you, never the less manage an hour or two a year on SEPs.

I am always impressed how accomplished they are BUT there are two aspects at which they are hopeless:

PFLs and

the very last bit of the landing.

No surprises there I suppose, but a very good reason for some currency training.

[IO540]

Having seen a few ATPs in this situation I would suggest that one preserves their single crew IR privileges as #1 priority. That's by far the hardest thing to get back after retirement from an airline.

I know someone who got himself a single crew IR with just a checkride with his old training captain. I don't recall that he had to do anything else that was significant.

[justinmg]

Unfortunately, accident statistics show repeatedly that one of the strongest predictors of an accident is time on type.
The physical skills set for flying light GA and heavy commercial are well known to be very different.
All that being said, I would have thought a couple of hours with an instructor would have been about right. I take it they have insisted on a flight test.....

[Genghis the Engineer]

I've been flying for more than.....well put it this way when I started sex was safe and flying was fun! Now I've three kids and eldest daughter who knows daddy flies planes asked if I could take her flying in a little aeroplane, well the lump in my throat was probably visible but manfully I managed to hold in the tear.
I've 15000 hours, UK ATPL, US ATP, 757 Captain, so I thought a quick phone call to the friendly people at the CAA would help. Now I know I've not flown a single piston for a while now but the requirements to revalidate ones PPL privilages are nothing short of amazing, that allied to the cost of private flying in the UK means flight simulation on the computer will have to do for now.
I fully understand that flying commercially with the autopilot in is totally different to flying around the west coast of Scotland on a nice day, but the controls still work in the same sense don't they. I naiively thought a couple of hours or so with an instructor, quick check and of you go, but it's not to be. Is anyone else out there equally bemused?:confused:


So in 15k hours you've presumably learned a lot about airmanship, earned a great deal of money, and done more proficiency checks than most of us will ever need to.

And you've been told that you (I'm guessing) need to fly a few hours with an instructor and re-take your GFT to fly P1 in an aeroplane that is, roughly speaking, ½% of the weight of anything you've flown in the last 20 years, with reversible controls (again probably something you've not flown in a couple of decades), almost entirely in VFR - which again will be something you've done relatively little of.

This is in an environment where there's a well established track record, before the rules were changed, of high hour ATPLs bending little aeroplanes because they didn't feel they needed (re?)conversion training.

The problem is exactly what?

G

[BillieBob]

Sky Wave, FLEXPWR, ETOPS, JW411, wombat13, Baywatcher, tom775257, RogerIrrelevant69, Final 3 Greens, what next, ExSimGuy, Fuji Abound, IO540, justinmg, Genghis the Engineer - Congratulations, you have all, clearly, been HAD! The requirements for the holder of a current ATPL(A) to fly a SEP aeroplane are:

1. To pass a Licensing Proficiency Check

2. Errr.... that's it

Not exactly rocket science, is it?

Of course, there is always the chance that 'Mark M'Words' is being economical with the truth... No, surely not!

[ChrisVJ]

If that worries you, try requalifying in Canada after a 29 year lay off, (from all flying.)

" Currency is 5 hrs and 5 landings and then you can have the privileges of your UK licence."

" But it has been 29 years."

" Doesn't say anything about that here. 5 hrs, 5 landings it is."

[RogerIrrelevant69]

Errr....BilleBob please clarify how we have all clearly been had?

My take on it: "A few hours + test would do the trick".

Unless you assume anyone with a MEP CPL doesn't need the few hours SEP training :)

[ETOPS]

To pass a Licensing Proficiency Check

Thanks BillieBob that's what I did :ok:

[justinmg]

I take it they have insisted on a flight test.....
Yes BillieBob Clearly we were all a long way off the mark.

[gingernut]

Tell you what Mark,

I'll let you have a go in mine,

If you let me have a go in yours :)

[clunckdriver]

As a retired airline pilot and flight school owner I can only hope that Canada avoids the tangle of rules that the EU seems to be inflicting on GA in the UK, we have many pilots from the UK come over to fly ,and yes some of the heavy metal drivers are a bit rusty none of them have ever bent one of our aircraft in seveteen years. I think the point is that none of us will launch a pilot in a $150,000 aircraft unless we feel they are safe, we simply dont need some twit on high to tell us who can fly, the insurance companies and the owners have too much at stake not to ensure its safe, the only real problem we have had is convincing a pilot who has spent his life living in the UK that you really do need ten days survival gear and a bear gun to fly over the bush {two killed this year already by pissed of bears}As an end note my wife and I were thinking of spending our dotage away from our Winters and moving to the UK, taking some of our aircraft with us, our first brush with the nedies runing aviation in the UK cured us of this plan!

[handsfree]

Many moons ago, me a low hours PPL in left hand seat of PA28, him a 747 driver with oodles of hours in the right hand seat and the two girl friends in the back. He seriously wanted to put the aircraft into a spin to show the girls how exhilerating it can be. Had to point out that it was probably the last thing we'd do. He was a good (?) pilot but not current on type and had forgotten how even a little plane can bite. Two hours with an instructor isn't a lot to avoid becoming a smoking hole (albeit a little one).

[Consol]

I've 15000 hours, UK ATPL, US ATP

Mark,
Its fine, as a US licence holder you have recip ppl rights anyway so long as you fly SE day vfr. You need a valid medical (JAA is fine) and to be within US biennial flight review rules (two years or have done any FAA test). You can also fly in Ireland and many other ICAO states which allow automatic recip. Got to hand it to the yanks, the've still managed to keep a lot of b.s. out of keeping your licence.

[Sensible]

Well, having had an "awakening" sitting in a PA 28 as a passenger but flying on my licence with a US military Jet pilot in the next seat, I can fully understand why there should be an hour or two's check out. Apparently the effect of a propeller in place of a jet engine has an entirely different effect on take off requiring some rudder input. I am additionally informed that the climb rate of a PA 28 is much less than that of a jet and requires a much lower nose attitude, apparently, there are diffences on engine management too! The landing was an experience when my nerve finally went and I called "I have control" to avoid a flare at 20' above the runway. I'd prefer to take an Alka Seltzer and a couple of tranquilisers before repeating the experience or maybe I will do the wise thing and just won't repeat the experience!

[clunckdriver]

We to have experienced such problems,But if you own the hardware you aint going to let the guy fly it untill you have a gut feeling that he/she is safe,my insurance bill is a Kings ransom,My good lady and myself are not going to launch you across the"Great White North" if we dont think you will bring our aircraft back in one piece, in the mean time, come on over ands see a great country!

[Eff Oh]

Maybe a wee bit off topic but how does a UK CAA (JAA) ATPL holder with B757/767 rating get an FAA licence?? Is there an easy way to do it? Not interested in working there only flying on PPL privelages.

[JW411]

Billie Bob:

"I flew 5 flights (totalling 3 hrs 50 mins) before I felt back up to speed...."

Which part of that did you not understand? How exactly have I been had?

I bought an aeroplane that I had never flown before and did not wish to bend it on my first flight. All 5 flights were flown in my own aircraft and nobody tried to make me fly more than I thought I needed.

I have so far survived almost 50 years in aviation. You may continue to do the absolute minimum. That is your privilege.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Here (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_501600.pdf), in my opinion, is a classic example of overconfidence in a high hour pilot getting into a small aeroplane.

G

[IO540]

Genghis, I've just read that report and I don't think it tells us very much. I think that if I got into a glorified hang glider with a lawn mower engine strapped to the back of it I would be dead pretty fast :O

The pilot should have known better. He should have got some training.

[FlyingForFun]

The pilot should have known better. He should have got some trainingIsn't that the point?

FFF
-------------

[IO540]

Sure, but I don't see where the "high hour" bit comes into it. Anybody can get killed if nobody tells them the type has unusual behaviour.

The pilot had a BCPL, high total logbook hours but unverifiable currency.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Genghis, I've just read that report and I don't think it tells us very much. I think that if I got into a glorified hang glider with a lawn mower engine strapped to the back of it I would be dead pretty fast :O
The pilot should have known better. He should have got some training.

You might find it helpful to look the type up - since it hasn't got a hang-glider style wing, and the engine is at the front! It also has conventional 3-axis controls - pretty much the only things missing are side-doors and flaps.

As for whether any type has unusual behaviour or not - there are many ways to find out. But it's up to the pilot in command to find out, not necessarily to anybody else to volunteer this (although one hopes that they might).

G

[Baywatcher]

Can anyone suggest a user friendly club to complete the hours and SEP test?

[Genghis the Engineer]

Can anyone suggest a user friendly club to complete the hours and SEP test?

Whereabouts?

G

[AC-DC]

Few years ago I let a 4 engine jet's captain fly my aircraft from the r/h seat, he nearly wrote it off during during landing with 18kts. X wind. After we got out of the aircraft he said that he thought that all aircraft are the same and said that this flight was a very good leason.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I do flight training on different kinds of flying stuff and have found there is not really any one size fits all in aircraft handling skills.

There are those who are born naturals and can fly anything with very little dual, it goes down from there to those who just do not have the mechanical co-ordination and or ability to see the profile ahead of the machine and are at best barely able to fly period.

Thank jebus I'm getting out of aviation as the morons who are dreaming up the ever expanding rules are destroying any pleasure that flying has.

In defense of the heavy iron guys they are no different than the rest, there are good and not so good.

But for sure the decision on allowing any pilot to fly any flying device should rest with the check pilot, not some slobbering cretin sitting in some government cubicle just making rules to expand their network of drones.

I bet this will piss off some that read my thoughts on this subject. :ooh: :E :ok:

Chuck E.

[IO540]

he nearly wrote it off during during landing with 18kts

I am not sure that qualifies as a good example, as very few high-hour GA pilots would be able to land a normal spamcan with an 18kt xwind. That actually takes a lot of skill to do. And I fly a plane with a 25kt max demo xw.

[SparkyBoy]

Having flown thousands of hours in "heavies" - at 10 feet above the ground, I finally made my way to a C152 and was astounded as the instructor took off - at a speed which I thought unimaginable!

Very different!

lol

65 knots must have felt so slow - don't you "heavy" pilots need that just to taxy. ;)

[GroundBound]

For those who have so quickly leapt on the bandwagon of criticsm, why not re-read the text of MmWord's original post. He did not suggest that familiarity on type was not necessary and he did not suggest he should not do it.
I naiively thought a couple of hours or so with an instructor, quick check and of you go,
and
but the requirements to revalidate ones PPL privilages are nothing short of amazing, that allied to the cost of private flying ...
Fot those who replied by explainig the rules for revalidation - well done. For those whoe chose to criticise - well, take a good look inside.

GB

[3 Point]

Interesting that M M Words who started this thread has not reappeared. He opened with the title

"Can perform open heart surgery, not allowed to apply band-aid!"

Which, I think is rather revealing!

It suggests that he equates airliner flying with open heart surgery and light aircraft flying with applying band-aid.

Many people have commented that all he needs to do is to pass a skill test to renew his SEP class rating; I'm sure that's what the CAA would have told him and it's what he could have found out for himself by reading LASORS or searching on-line. That's what the regulations say and, it's possible that some pilots may be able to step into an SEP aeroplane for the first time in many years and perform up to a suitable standard to pass the test. Many will require some refresher training and practice and a few will require a lot of training to get up to speed.

I don't doubt there are some training organisations who might want to over egg the pudding and take a large wad out of his wallet in the process but a savvy bloke ought to be able to spot when he is being taken for a ride.

However, if he turned up at my training facility with his "heart surgeon" attitude I'd send him away with a flea in his ear! I've flown with many pilots in "serious" aeroplanes who I wouldn't trust with sticking plaster and with just as many in SEP aircraft who were excellent pilots.

Ground Bound chooses two quotes from the original post which seem to me to be inconsistant. On the one hand, what is naieve about expecting to do a couple of training flights and a test? That is exactly what is required! MMWords doesn't say exactly what he finds amazing about the renewal requirements so it's difficult to know what he means by that comment. We all know about the cost of recreational flying so there's no need to say more on that!

I chose to criticise because, as I said, I find MMWord's choice of title for his post sugestive of an unhealthy attitude to flying small aeroplanes.

Sticking plaster indeed!

3 Point

PS; Yes, I do fly and teach on all sorts of aeroplanes from big to small, old to new; none of it is heart surgery but it does all require a degree of humility and an understanding of one's own limitations.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I agree with 3 point on flying not being all that big a deal.

However on the other side of the coin it is amazing how difficult it is to find a flight instructor in the flying schools today that can give instruction on basic tailwheel airplanes..

So in defense of the guy that thinks its like surgery maybe he has a point..:ok:

If you are looking for tail wheel instruction one would think that any flight instructor would be capable of giving dual instruction on one.