Jetstar re-invents the wheel

[Chief Chook]

That this "New Age" know-all-know-nothing management is the costliest item in today's airline environment, is no better demonstrated than in this article (http://70.86.224.210/~aqwquuwt/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1557). Not only have they conceded that allocated the time-proven allocated seating sytem is the most efficient way of handling pax, but hidden within the report....

[Aussie]

Interesting, i heard this on the radio a few days ago...

See how it pan out for them!

Aussie

[Chimbu chuckles]

It is an unfortunate fact in this industry that management come and go while staff tend to be there much longer...it probably isn't any different in most similarly structured large businesses.

As a result we see seemingly constant efforts at 'reinventing the wheel' and we see it fail as often as not...for the same reasons it failed last time.

The managers themselves will never accept well intentioned advice because they are 'managers' and you're staff.:ugh:

It's called lack of corporate knowledge.

It's the way they fought, and the reason they lost, the Vietnam War....the lessons learned were lost every 12 mths when people were rotated home and had to be relearned.

It will never change so just get used to it...you'll drive yourself nuts otherwise.

[Captain Sand Dune]

Sounds like any ADF flying squadron...........:yuk: :mad:

[Taildragger67]

Ryanair started off having a complete free-for-all scrum, but nowadays have modified it. You're given a numbered card at check-in, which corresponds to the order in which you checked in (I suppose like a sequence number). This then determines the order in which you board the aircraft. Once aboard, you can sit where you like. So it takes no extra time, but avoids the scrum.

Which is a bit of a bugger for us rushing to Stansted after work, who can still manage a respectable 100m time!!

Not quite sure how it works now with their on-line check-in; haven't flown FR for a year. But my point is that it is possible to have non-assigned seating and still avoid the scrum.

[fistfokker]

If you actually care to check you will see that the free seating has worked well and been cost effective.

A number of issues have driven the change of policy, particularly the intenational flying and the reduction in the cost over the last two years of allocating seats. There will still however be an increase in cost which most likely will end up being past on to the consumer.

I believe it is a good policy change in the light of a number of changes in the Company's direction.

[Danny Crane]

Free Seating Policy - meant to save money wasn't it?

FistFokker, Figure me this

- if a pax knocks off a seatbelt or a lifejacket, or vandalises the seat area, and the seat was allocated, then what is the result ? The PAX is confronted before he or she leaves the terminal and the gear is returned 99.99999% of the time. If not they are contacted with a please explain by the Feds . Note that this is less likely to happen in an allocated seat in the first place for obvious reasons.

- If the same happens with free seating (and it does - at a vastly higher rate than non-free-seating) then there is no hope of getting the gear back or the responsible parties confronted.

- Now, if a life jacket is worth $120.00, and it's a 120 seat aeroplane and only one life jacket per aeroplane per day goes walkies, what does that add to the ticket cost ????

I am sure the cost benifit of free seating is pretty much neutralised.

- Next add the security issues and the potential to loose multiple lifejackets or have multiple seat damage, and PAX general distrust or dislike of free seating, and the liklihood of seat skirmish in the terminal.

How does reinventing the wheel look now? The new wheel is not that much faster than the old one is it ??????????

[fistfokker]

Danny C, all good points. However you will note that I support the policy change to allocated seating. I was simply saying the other system has worked well in meeting some of the targets the domestic operation wanted. I don't think it is an issue that pilots should be getting hot under the collar with each other about.

[Danny Crane]

FF. sorry if my language in prev post suggested otehrwise - not hot under the collar at all - I simply never saw the free seating idea as a good one, and it looks like history has proven me right no matter how the spin doctors and management who wouldn't listen to the troops at the time try to make it look otherwise :ok:

[amos2]

Well, let's see now...

I jumped on board a Jetstar flight the other day with my wife and sat down in a couple of seats... and flew to MEL!

A week later my wife and I jumped on a return flight, grabbed a couple of seats... and flew back home!

So, tell me, why is this a problem?

Am I missing something here?

Did the same thing with Alitalia about 30 yrs ago...what's the problem guys??

[Wizofoz]

......And non allocated seating is the norm with Sothwest, easyJet and Ryanair who are....let's see...oh yes... The Most Profitable Airlines On The Planet!!!!!

So OBVIOUSLY it's a bad idea!:ugh:

(Oh God! I just agreed with Amos!!

[king oath]

This change of heart comes with longer turn around times on the ground. Seems the 25 minute turn around dream ain't happening.

No doubt management can't bear the cost of all that extra fuel being used to go fast to try and keep the show on time. Looks like fuel costs won out and sense prevailed.

Nicely hidden by the spin doctor.

[MIss Behaviour]

With JQ doing longer flights now within Oz to Perth & Darwin and crew operating both forward and return legs there's only a limited time to 'play with' if you need to offload someone & find their bags if they're too intoxicated to travel.

It's not uncommon for the last few pax to be boarding and have JQ ops informing staff they've got 10 mins to go or the crew are out of hours. What happens when the crew refuse to uplift someone due to the above reasons?

It's only a matter of time before the scenario happens, so taking the above into account are the cabin crew encouraged to have a bit of a rethink or does one pax ruin it for everybody by having 170 people diverted somewhere else (less crew hours) with the extra expense of overnighting pax in hotels then still having to get them to their original destination? :eek: :eek:

[skyshow]

Isn't it clear they're doing it to be consistant with their International operations (eg: transferring pax from International to domestic etc...) That's all! Imagine a non-english speaking tourist group flying from overseas with allocated seating then transferring to a domestic flight without allocated seating but being the same product/airline?


“Seat allocation will form part of Jetstar’s in-flight product for our low fare long haul international flights which will also feature two classes of service."


“Jetstar will in three years be a predominately international business and consistency of an allocated seat for all Jetstar services is fundamental to our product offering."

MIss Behaviour...
It's only a matter of time before the scenario happens, so taking the above into account are the cabin crew encouraged to have a bit of a rethink or does one pax ruin it for everybody by having 170 people diverted somewhere else (less crew hours) with the extra expense of overnighting pax in hotels then still having to get them to their original destination?
Not sure about Jetstar (presume they're the same), but we as cabin crew can be rostered up to a certain amount of hours work, add another 1.5 hours for ANY delay. So I don't think your scenario should be a problem.

[Eagleman]

Fact

Dixon and the QF sales and marketing people have always been anti free seating.

As always, little alan is doing as he is told!!!!

Remember, he has promised Geoff to be the first in the group to introduce AWAs.

[omalley]

Look out mainline the end is near!

Now let's see. What is the difference between JQ and QF?

Only on-carriage and through baggage check-in. Then all the QF services at 70% of QF cost.

Watch this space!

[RENURPP]

Now let's see. What is the difference between JQ and QF?


Just about everything as far as passenegers are concerned.

Regardless of all the negative comments regardiong QF service, it has improved and even with a steep down hill fall it is miles better than jetstar. Thats why QF will continue. I would not buy a ticket on Jetstar on a flight over an hour long and even then I would be grinding my teeth, or the few I have left all thge way to the destination.

[tinpis]

Missus tin flew on Jet* last night.
Said it was a good new fast plane:hmm:
But was a bit slow getting cracking for the blue seats when called.
All in all any flight that is quick is a good flight.
Especially at 2.am

[airbusthreetwenty]

This change of heart comes with longer turn around times on the ground. Seems the 25 minute turn around dream ain't happening.

Yeah. They definately not working.

[Chief Chook]

Have a read again of this article (http://70.86.224.210/~aqwquuwt/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1557) and like good little pilots look beyond the skin deep obvious attraction (the free for all seating is finished).

Anything else of significance?

[Gaofeiniao]

Most passengers don't like unallocated seating. Those that generally dislike it the most are the frequent flyers who don't arrive excitedly at the airport hours before the plane departs. Most of the revenue comes from these passengers.

There's a balancing act between the cost of processing seat allocations, the impact upon timearound times, and the positive impact upon revenue from attracting passengers who would prefer to travel on an airline that offers allocated seating. That is something the airlines need to review periodically.

Although Southwest Airlines, Easyjet and Ryanair successfully operate low-cost models with unallocated seating, even they need to reassess this decision from time-to-time. According to this article (http://www.abtn.co.uk) Southwest Airlines are currently doing just that.

Jetstar isn't a stand alone like Ryanair etc. As the frequent flyer passengers have access to the Qantas lounges and will not to champing at the bit by the gate for boarding, they are likely to be some of the last to board. Ryanair would tell these passengers to :mad: off and accept the middle seat in the last row. As an integral part of the Qantas group Jetstar can't afford to do that.

[bob55]

Jetstar have shocking turn around times in Darwin. They plan for 30 minutes but it's not uncommon to see them take over an hour.

The biggest problem is if the Melbourne and Brisbane flights arrive around the same time, they will normally only use gate 2 (which is set up as the Jetstar gate in the terminal) so whoever arrives second has to sit on the apron until the other one has pushed back and started taxiing for departure.

I saw one of them wait 25 minutes on the apron just the other week.

[Capn Bloggs]

The real reason for allocated seating is to accomodate the QF passengers travelling on Jetstar flights via codeshare. I'd be impressed if I hopped on a DRW-Southbound flight only to find it was Jetstar, and that all the good seats were taken by the ferals barging in in front of me.

[bob55]

The real reason for allocated seating is to accomodate the QF passengers travelling on Jetstar flights via codeshare. I'd be impressed if I hopped on a DRW-Southbound flight only to find it was Jetstar, and that all the good seats were taken by the ferals barging in in front of me.

I wonder if QF FF members will get priority seating now?

[B A Lert]

It is interesting to reflect on comments made by Alan Joyce in his speech to the National Aviation Press Club in Sydney on 22nd July 2004. Amongst other things, this is what he said:

"The policies of unallocated or freestyle seating, no connectivity of passenger through baggage and our flight close out policy at 30 minutes. I’d like to briefly reflect on their introduction since the arrival of Jetstar – and how these policies are both pro-customer and reflect good service practice. I believe that the unallocated seating policy been well accepted by both passengers and our local aviation authorities alike. It is an efficient, customer friendly process that is also contributing to our solid on-time performance which was the highest domestically in the month of May, albeit off a smaller flying base than Qantas mainline and Virgin Blue. We anticipate an even better performance in June when the next round of figures is soon released. Privately our figures show this to be similar to May."

If unallocated seating was so good in 2004, what has changed to make it so undesirable less than two years later? Where are the spin-doctors?

[fistfokker]

The world needs more LERTS,

what has changed I believe, as announced, is the international flying equation, both cross tasman and the new wide-body international. The company has decided in the interests of a seamless product, along with a reduction in the cost of pre-allocation technology, (at booking stage) that it will now offer that product.

That is what has changed since 2004.

Is it not a good thing to see an outfit willing to change with changing times?

[B A Lert]

Is it not a good thing to see an outfit willing to change with changing times?

Of course but Jetstar was either too mean or too inefficient not to have allocated seating from day one. The dishonest spin put out that their policy kept fares down because unallocated seating allowed quicker turnrounds which in turn helped better aircraft utilisation blah blah blah. What total cr@p! Does this change of policy mean that Jetstar will be slightly less efficient and have to put up its fares? I think the answer will be no.

Having experienced free seating on Jetstar, I can only say that it's not only inefficient as passengers run all over the aircraft looking for seats and slowing the boarding process, it was also quite a circus. The airline could have done just as well in a more orderly fashion what they are now planning to do. I can put up with fools and the ignorant stuffing things up but I cannot tolerate hypocrisy when things are stuffed up because of bad decisions and policy and spin is used to put out a 'better' side of the story when change is introduced :yuk:

[ditzyboy]

Having experienced free seating on Jetstar, I can only say that it's not only inefficient as passengers run all over the aircraft looking for seats and slowing the boarding process

BA Lert -
As someone who has experienced boarding both the QF 738 and JQ 320 as cabin crew I can tell you categorically that Jetstar's free seating system means boarding a full 320 is so much quicker. It never took more than 10 minutes. I recently operated a 738 flight SYD-PER where boarding took almost 45 minutes! It was a total debacle and circus. I have never seen a bunch of more agro customers.

I am neither for nor against the circus was sometimes Jetstar boarding (much of the time it wasn't, however) just you cannot deny boarding full flights is over in less than half the time - always.

Agreed about the spin doctoring... I guess Jetstar is part of the QF Group, after all!