CARDIFF - 2

[CWL_Chris]

Is anyone aware of any developments to link CWL with CDG again?

How about AF operating 2 or 3 times daily?

[jetstream7]

Chris
No flights from bmiBaby by the look of it... though I'm sure they said they'd reintroduce them.
Some how I'm not surprised... and with the route having lain dormant for a few months it'll be tough for someone else to get it going again... no goodwill to be carried through from the AWW/WW operation.
I wonder whether the airport are knocking on Air France's door? Some good opportunities for interlining through CDG I would think.

[MerchantVenturer]

Now that Air France is in bed with KLM it seems that they believe they will be competing against themselves if they operate from the smaller UK regional airports to both the AMS and CDG hubs.

AF pulled out of BRS apparently for this very reason, with KLM Citihopper operating the AMS route as it also does from CWL, and I believe they have done so elsewhere as well.

BRS was lucky because BACX (now BACon) also operated the CDG route from there and simply increased their own rotations to fill the AF void.

Having said this it seems inconceivable that no-one is stepping in quickly to fill the CWL-CDG route.

TwinAisle

Edited to say we seem to be together on the AF/KLM thing. Hope you're in fine form. I believe you are now away from these shores. Best wishes.

[TwinAisle]

I wonder whether the airport are knocking on Air France's door? Some good opportunities for interlining through CDG I would think

There in lies the Paris problem. Yes, there are loads of good routes via Paris, but I would bet AF won't touch them because of the KL route to AMS. If AF started it, then the KL load to AMS would be diluted, yields would fall, and that would defeat the object of the exercise. AF would not be looking to fly people to CDG, but via CDG to the rest of the world, as KL do with AMS.

CDG is a tough route from Cardiff. It is categorically not a low cost route, due to the economics of the operation. BA had it cracked with the EMB and the J41, filled it with business passengers, charged decent fares, £512 return in C class, from my expenses claims!

Eastern would be the ideal operator for this route from CWL, IMHO, but don't expect discount fares....

(Edited to say Snap to MV! Travelling like a madman right now, in Cardiff now and again, eastern Europe more usual...)

[Deal or No deal]

Baby have their winter booking up now, no CDG on there.....

[Deal or No deal]

If AF started it, then the KL load to AMS would be diluted

I'm afraid BABY have done this with their AMS route....

Not too sure what the future hold with KL now....

[TwinAisle]

I'm afraid BABY have done this with their AMS route....


Not sure they have. Baby's passengers are, I would bet, going to AMS, while KLM's are typically going via AMS to somewhere else.

In any case, KLM would have some influence over AF, and may well (if they have any sense) stop them doing a CWL-CDG. Baby are a law unto themselves from a KLM/AF perspective.

[jetstream7]

So if bmiBaby are no longer interested in CWL-CDG, and Air France don't want to be interested, what are the options?

Current operators from CWL....
Eastern / Air Arran / Air Southwest? No current routes to Paris from any of these, so it's definitely a step into unknown territory for them.

Time for CWL to welcome flyBE perhaps? Or a return for BA Connect?

[MerchantVenturer]

I agree withTwinAisle's suggestion that Eastern are the most likely but, as he points out, the fares will be expensive.

In hindsight it is probably a pity that bmibaby ever went to CWL because Flybe would surely have seriously considered setting up a network from there not dissimilar to that from SOU and, increasingly, from EXT.

Their aircraft sizes are probably more suitable for several low cost routes not flown by baby out of CWL because the 737 is too big.

Flybe might yet make some sort of appearance at CWL of course and Aer Arann seems keen on building up routes from there, so who knows?

As for Air Southwest, they currently only fly within the UK and to the Channel Islands. I hope they will expand into the near Continent and Republic of Ireland.

[CWL_Chris]

So if bmiBaby are no longer interested in CWL-CDG, and Air France don't want to be interested, what are the options?
Current operators from CWL....
Eastern / Air Arran / Air Southwest? No current routes to Paris from any of these, so it's definitely a step into unknown territory for them.
Time for CWL to welcome flyBE perhaps? Or a return for BA Connect?

I think that Aer Arran may actually take up the CWL-CDG route. They have said that they wish to expand on the four routes that they already operate from CWL and CDG would be a natural progression. If they did decide to operate a CDG route from CWL, they may also look at operating; CWL-IOM and CWL-INV. Eastern are also a possiblity, however I feel that they will be looking more at domestic routes from CWL to airports such as; ABZ and LCY.

I agree withTwinAisle's suggestion that Eastern are the most likely but, as he points out, the fares will be expensive.

I think that the CWL-CDG route does have some scope for the leisure market and that it would be a shame if the route was operated by Eastern with their high priced fares.

In hindsight it is probably a pity that bmibaby ever went to CWL because Flybe would surely have seriously considered setting up a network from there not dissimilar to that from SOU and, increasingly, from EXT.


I agree with you 100% on BMIbaby choosing CWL and Flybe looking at CWL :\... However, what about the likes of Jet2 at CWL? I think they could be a success at CWL.

Their aircraft sizes are probably more suitable for several low cost routes not flown by baby out of CWL because the 737 is too big.

I agree with you here also. CDG is an example of this and to a lesser extent, routes such as TLS, MUC and ZRH. All of which could work from CWL, however not with a 737, but something more like a 50-60 seater aircraft.

Flybe might yet make some sort of appearance at CWL of course and Aer Arann seems keen on building up routes from there, so who knows?

Flybe = hopefully.. one day
Aer Arran = They'll expand at CWL

As for Air Southwest, they currently only fly within the UK and to the Channel Islands. I hope they will expand into the near Continent and Republic of Ireland.


Me too, they could probably operate a few routes to Europe that would work well from the airports they operate from.

Regards,
Chris

[a bristolian]

What about Thomsonfly to Orly?

[CWL_Chris]

a bristolian

I forgot about them and that they operated from DSA and CVT to ORY. Good point, that might be a possible operater on the CWL-Paris route.

Regards,
Chris

[WOWBOY]

Air Southwest are rumoured to be looking at operating BOH-CDG. So CWL-CDG might be possible with them, if the rumours are true!

Eastern to CDG would ,as said, be very expensive this would not appeal to the general public!

Aer Arann would probally be the best bet as they have expanded in CWL fast in a short space of time!

What about Thomsonfly to Orly?

Never thought of that! :p
Seeing as they operate CWL-JER , I wouldn't rule that out!

[TwinAisle]

I would suggest that CWL-CDG is not a low cost route. Low cost routes need serious volumes to make them viable, that is the basis of the business model.

There is some leisure traffic on the route, at leisure fares, but to make it work as a business route it needs to be at least double daily. Which means that, if you put a standard low cost airline aircraft on it, you are looking at producing roughly 640 seats a day, and a low cost will want to fill nigh on 500 of them, day in, day out. Way too much for CWL-CDG, as baby proved. You'll notice as well that easy don't run CDG from BRS, for similar reasons I would bet. So you need a smaller aircraft - which takes out the serious low cost players.

Jet2? Don't think so on this run - would be an orphan route for them, since I really can't see them basing a 737 in Cardiff any time soon. And in any case, the 737 is too large for this route.

ASW? Pride themselves on low fares, and will fall foul of the CDG route economics.

Aer Arann? Interesting thought, but they have shown no interest in Paris from anywhere else (although only Luton makes any sense for them), and in any case, they are short of aircraft and crew at the minute. Probably wouldn't want to take a flyer on a route like CWL-CDG. And anyway, they'd want PSO :)

Flybe is interesting. But again, they would have an orphan route here - would they stop at EXT on the way over the top?

BACON is the logical one, but this would be their only route out of Cardiff. Makes no real sense unless it was operated on a W pattern, and do they have a spare aircraft at the right times of day? I somehow doubt it, morning and evening are BACON peaks, since business travel is their niche (despite their lunatic low cost strategy).

My money remains on Eastern....
Eastern to CDG would ,as said, be very expensive this would not appeal to the general public!
to which I say, the "general public" are not your target market on this route, business people are. Airlines are there to make money, which BA did with their relatively healthy fares. Even when the good people of South Wales were offered a low cost flight to CDG with Baby, they didn't exactly flock to it. The equally good people of the South West don't want to flock there either, clearly, or otherwise easy would have gone toe to toe with BA from BRS by now.

[MarkD]

there's also the matter of getting slots... especially if you're competing with AF :}

[TwinAisle]

An excellent point.

Baby and by extension Air Wales operated using bmi slots, which I would bet have been reabsorbed into the bmi network somewhere.

Getting more at good business times could well be a nightmare, with or without AF's help :ugh:

[caaardiff]

Any more news on who will operate the North-South Wales route?
Again sounds like Eastern territory.
But i would like to see Air Southwest come in with a Valley - CWL - LGW/LCY route
They already fly from the southwest over to Gatwick.
And anyone in South Wales will agree you cant turn a corner without seeing an Airsouthwest add. So unlike Air Wales' LCY demise, WOW may just pull it off.

[Deal or No deal]

So it would seem that the First Choice A320 number 1 engine has hit an electric vehicle with steps on the back, whilst taxiing onto stand.

Vehicles left on ground from previous a/c, First Choice coming onto stand 9 ( I think ). They've already changed one engine this summer!!


I heard the a/c was empty ( of passengers ).

Any more???

[pipertommy]

Hi,yip two nice dents on the ducting around the intake,which the engineer said needs to be replaced as they are only allowed one damage/repair to be fixed,any more means complete replacement!Also there was an incident of a cabin crew member activated an escape slide the night before by accident!Pax put in a hotel and were due to go out this morning!!!!On guess what a/c:{

[Deal or No deal]

Seems another a/c must have been brought in to reduce the delays....

Is the a/c still on stand?? Or moved over to BAMC perhaps for repair? ( In the near future )??

I understand how this has happened though..... Crew on another a/c left the steps there, as they don't have the time to remove them fully before push. Called to another a/c... So FCA coming onto stand with inexperienced ground crew there just to chock it??? Though didn't the flight deck see it could be close?? As it's an agnis light stand, not needing a marshaller??Easily done in my opinion, concidering CWL these days!!

Just glad it wasn't worse......

It's been said on the quiet ( amongst staff ) that there will be incidents at CWL this summer due to the bad management there! Here's the first... DON'T let there be more!

Management take note!!!!

Cheers.... NO DEAL!!

[PhilM]

It's all happening when I'm off-shift I see :eek:

Not suprised an accident involving ground equipment has happened to be honest, the amount of it scattered randomly about the airfield is getting quiet obscene!. Lots of it belonging to one company in particular!, usually to be found blocking in other companies equipment :rolleyes:

I am glad someone has finally moved those busses from where they were parked, causing any traffic travelling on the apron road to have to veer into the taxiway on the sly to get past them and to the top stands.

Some of the antics have been quiet comical infact, usually involving steps, being taken off an aircraft to service another one, then the crews arriving and standing round for 30mins for another set to arrive.

Aircraft arrive up the top on the new stands, a 737 or A320 lets say, to have only one bus show up, 20mins later the 2nd arrives!

Whoever is at the helm of the ramp operations at Cardiff needs to get a grip! Sort out where your equipment is parked, make sure its SAFE and not blocking anything else. Try and get two busses to an aircraft that is landing etc, think before moving steps!. Also, how about actually bringing GPUs to aircraft that arrive? I'd guess you have a contract thats states the airline has the use of a GPU inclusive, seems if your not on Stands 1, 2 and 3 your chances of having a GPU are remote. Can't see the airlines being happy about having APUs being run all night using fuel, apu hours and making a racket, when they have paid for the use of a GPU!. Infact don't the ramp procedures say aircraft MUST use GPUs?

Soooort it := ;)

[bycrewlgw]

Hey guys, its probably been asked before but any idea of how well the new routes (well new ish lol) are doing? I.E.

WOW: NQY & MAN

RE: ORK, DUB, LRT & GWY

T3: NCL & BRU

Z4: YVR

The new longhaul services from TOM are proving popular esp POP from CWL almost full each sector (data from internal sources) but just wondered how the others are doing.

Cheers,

BYCREWLGW

[WindSheer]

Only 24 hours before the FCA incident, a Thomson 767 narrowly avoided damage under identical circumstances.
1 day later due to the airbus' engine being closer to the equipment....bang!!

The incident in question cost FCA many many £1000s, by creating knock-on effects all over the country and overseas!

I fear ramp safety is not what it should be at the moment, there are far too may building workers and equipment in close proximity to aircraft for starters!! :=

[TwinAisle]

It's really just about impossible for an outsider to take a view on how well any routes from and to anywhere are doing, to be honest, except in the extreme case of the routes having no passengers at all.

The number of pax aboard a service is almost irrelevant - what matters is how much they paid to be there. For example - let's assume that Airline Y are only filling five seats to XYZ on average every night. But they are getting £200 a seat in revenue. Makes a grand, plus any no-shows (and they as a business airline will be getting some). Are they doing better or worse than say, Airline X filling 50 seats every night at £19 a seat?

To the outside world, Airline Y look like they are suffering, but in fact are doing better than Airline X, who have a fuller aircraft.

You could fill any route at any time you wanted to, if the fare is right. But you may not make any money on it, and that is the whole point of the business.

You really can't read much into pax numbers. In isolation of yield figures and some idea of costs, it is a bit meaningless.

BTW - I second PhilM's point on ground handling. I flew into Cardiff with KLM the other day, and we were held off stand whilst the crew radioed to get some equipment moved so we could park. Then we watched the ground staff chatting away on the ramp whilst we waited 20 minutes for the stairs. Not good!

[taffman]

Yes, have to agree with TwinAisle about poor service in meeting incoming aircraft. Having been in and out of CWL a lot recently on the KLM flights, the joy of arriving early or even on time is spoilt by the poor support by the ground crews. As stated already, ten to twenty minutes are not uncommon on the se delays and are very very annoying for the travelling public, beside all those dam stairs. Up, down, up down, what a stupid idea. Has not changed one jot in years. When will the idiots there wake up and get rid of them or arrange a better flow for the paying punters along with the bunker that is the departures area.

Have a fun day
Taffman

[caaardiff]

All the work that is going on around the international pier and in the baggage hall is to illiminate the use of stairs. The ground floor of the pier will soon go straight into the baggage hall, entering by where the toilets used to be, then a larger immigration area just before you come to the baggage belt. :ok:
At the moment the whole airport is a building site, its going to make this summer very difficult, but hopefully it will all be worth it! The structure for the new pier over towards the new stands is starting to take shape, from the pictures i've seen its looks like its going to be quite big!
Lord only knows when it will all be completed though! :confused:
Also agreed - The ground service is getting worse, the normal excuse being 'short staffed'.
Also with quite a few new starters taken on, its not the greatest combination.
As we've seen, there have been a few incidents already this season, and its only June!

[taffman]

Great news about the stairs. Perhaps they wil be taken to St.Fagons as a reminder of some of the more stupid designs ther have been in Wales. The roundabouts on the top road around Barry can go as well. What a mess. :uhoh:

Bean counters I expect causing the lack of staff or are they all busy in Bristol:rolleyes:

Here is to the future of CWL, Rhoose really, bring back Cambrian.

[MerchantVenturer]

Going back to the CWL-CDG route, how long would it be before this would qualify for RDF support?

I remember Air Wales pulling out of the CWL-BRU route because, presumably, it was not economic to operate, then, within a year or so, the same airline restarted the route thanks to RDF support of the route.

Paris must surely be a destination that could easily be construed as suitable for such funding.

Is the current Aer Arann BRU route the only one out of CWL currently assisted by the RDF?

[TwinAisle]

It's an Eastern service to BRU, not Arann... no idea whether the RDF has been dipped into for it.

Personally, I am dead against public money being used to support any route. I have been in this industry too long, and it irks me greatly when one supplier gets unfair subsidies to operate a route. Whilst I will concede the need for truly socially necessary services to get PSO (since it is cheaper supporting an air service than building hospitals throughout the Western Isles, for example), is it REALLY right to support a service from CWL-BRU, when a commercial service exists in BRS? We know that loads of people from the South Wales area use BRS, and loads of people from the South West use CWL. Should we really be using public money to take passengers off BA (on BRS-CDG) and SN (BRS-BRU)?

When US airlines (and others) enter Chapter 11, what is really happening is a sick business is being propped up against commercial reality by silly laws. If you want a reason why the US airline business is a shambles, start with Chapter 11. It's a bit like stopping evolution because you quite like dinosaur spotting. BA never needed money to run CWL to BRU or CDG - they had the right aircraft for the job, and got the right sort of fares. If airline A or airline B can't, tough. That's the nature of the market. I would much rather public money be spent on really essential services, like education, health and the police personally.

As for the argument about providing seeding for new long lasting routes that continue beyond the end of the public support - not convinced. The experience is that the grant stops, and the route is quietly dropped a few months later.

What are airlines for? Wealth creation, job creation or national willy waving? I think you can guess where I stand, and it rests on the first of these.

[MerchantVenturer]

TA

I'm with you on public money being used to prop up any industry or any part of an industry on a selective basis, and I do take the point about PSOs being different to RDFs.

Incidentally, I think BRS does get some indirect benefit from a RDF in that the Eastern ABZ-BRS route is supported by the Scottish RDF.

I don't know why I typed Aer Arann as I know perfectly well it is Eastern that operates the CWL-BRU. Well, I probably do know why - it's old age addling the brain.:{

[pipertommy]

Here`s abit of news for any with an interest in terminal affairs
http://info.cwlfly.com/en/news.asp?id=213

[Aloon]

Is Stand 11 destined to be an airbridge??

[Deal or No deal]

What's the scafoling structure between the main hanger and the 'pen' at BAMC?? Any ides??

[caaardiff]

Is Stand 11 destined to be an airbridge??
Would be nice to see another bridge there! But i doubt it will be...unless you know something we dont??
Before any new ones go in, i think they should tidy up the old ones!

[bycrewlgw]

Originally Posted by Aloon
Is Stand 11 destined to be an airbridge??

Doubt it really. According to the master plan all airbridges will be removed so I very much doubt they'll add any new ones in the meantime.

[PhilM]

What's the scafoling structure between the main hanger and the 'pen' at BAMC?? Any ides??

I've been reliably informed that it's a "nose in" hangar for BAMC, add that to the airbridge on the right hand side of their hangar, and the 3 bays, that gives them 5 lines in total, which is required for the cabin mods they will be doing later this year!

[heading 125]

I see lots of talk about money proping up airlines coming from the tax payer. Well the reason for RDF money is not to support airlines, it is to support the local economy. A plane going to Bristol will not bring any visitors to Wales will it. Since Baby and other low cost have been going I see more and more foreign visitors in Cardiff city and Swansea etc. This all adds up to money well spent by WAG.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

NO it doesn't. Taxpayers money being given to airlines and airports to subsidise routes is nothing more than Paying People To Come Here.

Never a viable long term strategy and frankly slightly humiliating. Spend that money elsewhere improving the environment, the business climate or the cultural quality of the region and people will want to fly to the airport without bribes. Which is sustainable, self generating and wholly more pleasing for all involved.

If you are absolutely desperate to spend more taxpayers money on transport then get rid of the Severn Bridge toll which must deter millions of journey every year.

Cheers

WWW

[TwinAisle]

A plane going to Bristol will not bring any visitors to Wales will it

Yes. There is significant leakage of passengers via BRS from and to Wales, as there is a corresponding leakage via CWL for passengers into and out of the West of England.

RDF money is not to support airlines

In essence I agree - but who does the cheque get made out to?

Spend that money elsewhere improving the environment, the business climate or the cultural quality of the region and people will want to fly to the airport without bribes. Which is sustainable, self generating and wholly more pleasing for all involved

Absolutely correct. Subsidising airlines creates bad airlines - have a look at the US for the classic example of how an industry can be screwed up with subsidies (Chapter 11 is after all a subsidy - a shield from business reality).

[rampboy767]

Im not surprised but this lastets inclident at CWL involving a FCA and a set steps, only a couple of weeks ago at work at BRS i heard about the ground crew driving off with the GPU after start up, but then leaving the aircraft without removing the chocks or waving the pilot off. And another incident involving a Air south west a/c, not bein chocked until after the aircraft was offloaded and the passengers had got off the plane. Another incident i also heard was that an aircraft wing clipped the wall of a building on stand or sumthing because the marshaller turned the aircraft too late onto stand. It seems ever since serivsair pulled out of cardiff and handed it over to aviance the serivce and safety has gone down hill.

[bycrewlgw]

Have servisair left CWL then ? Always was quite a big company there!

[WATABENCH]

Have they? Is it just from ramp? cus i'm 99.9% sure they check-in still over there.

[pipertommy]

Any details,Was it just a simple prang with the steps?

[rampboy767]

I think its just the ramp because they made an agreement with aviance at CWL, all the serivsair people still work there on the ramp just under aviance. But some of the management team is both aviance and serivsair employees like the station manager.

[caaardiff]

Servisair still have front of house (checkin etc) and Cargo.
The Ramp contract was handed over to Aviance, not sure the exact reason but im sure Aviance gave a better deal. And what business wouldnt turn down a better deal?
The Wing collision was sometime last yr. A VLM plane hit the edge of the old pier, possibly due to being guided in incorrectly

[bycrewlgw]

Few more charter routes for CWL next summer:

XLA --> KGS (in conjunction with FCA - I believe), MIR
FCA --> FNC , IBZ, HER

Anyone know if the flight to POP which airtours are selling will be operated by MYT or if they have a charter allocation on TOM for next summer? Last time i chacked the website no airline was announced. Any further route news guys? Any news on scheduled flights from the Capital? what about the North - South airlink?

BYCREWLGW

[caaardiff]

Yeh Kos is replacing the LPA. Interesting though, according to XL's timetable, both FUE and MIR leave on a wed at 0500.
MyTravel are no longer advertising POP on their website, but also heard TOM may be dropping POP. Its not bookable as a holiday, but is on their flight timetable.
Looking at the rest of their schedule, there are days when it looks like there'll be 3 aircraft at CWL! (not including the longhaul 763) JER is supposed to be on a 737 next year when an aircraft becomes available.
Also appears there's gonna be 2 aircraft here for the winter.
Would there still be a possibilty of XL staying through the winter? Apparently they announced BRS quite late on last year.
FCA seem to be concentrating on BRS now, so would be nice to see MYT with a good comeback at CWL!

[bycrewlgw]

JER is supposed to be on a 737 next year when an aircraft becomes available.

According to the flying programme in work the 737 already operates the Jer service. Isn't it supposed to be RE doing it?

[Fernando_Covas]

It seems ever since serivsair pulled out of cardiff and handed it over to aviance the serivce and safety has gone down hill.

Surley that would be down to the staff and not the name change?

How things have changed though. I can remeber a few years back that Aviance were due to pull out of CWL. Obvioulsy something seriously wrong with Servisair senior managment if the boot is now on t'other foot.

[WATABENCH]

FCA - BJV sundays, DLM thursdays, starting towards end of month.
MYT and TOM possibly dropping POP? why would they do that, thought it was a very popular route from CWL? I know the FCA sales for BRS-POP for next year are phenominal, but theres no way that would have any baring on the CWL routes surely?

[bycrewlgw]

The TOM flight from CWL to POP operated with almost full load ( whenever i checked the company intranet) but it all depends on what the people paid to travel on it. I can't see how we could have lost money on it though!

[WATABENCH]

FCA - FNC next year will be ops on 757. :8

[mytfly]

Cwlfly says that Kos is being served for the first time from Cardiff. Whoever wrote that need to check their facts, MYT used to fly to KGS on a Sat night....a favourite flight amongst the crew!! With a report time of around 8pm and landing around 7am it was very popular:=

quote: Both Excel Airways and First Choice are planning to add Kos to their Cardiff networks next summer, the first time this Greek island has been served directly from Wales.

[MerchantVenturer]

Unless the marketing department is using sloppy phraseology and means the first time Excel and First Choice have flown from CWL to Kos, it raises eyebrows as to what sort of operation they are running.

As mytfly says Airtours/MyTravel flew an overnight Saturday flight to Kos and it operated every summer from 1996 (or even further back possibly) and was only pulled after the 2004 summer season.

It was originally AIH 638 then AIH (later MYT) 762 on the return leg, presumably 637 and 761 on the outbound (I 'inherited' a mass of old records/timetables relating to both CWL and BRS).

[GROUNDHOG]

Well I was going to go away from Pprune but had to add my bit..... as MV says new it isn't, in fact if my memory serves me right from my days selling Paramount Airways, we operated some Cardiff to Kos flights back then!

On another Cardiff subject just booked the regular trip to Brussels and tried to book Eastern out of Cardiff, two people 11/8 nearly £500. Same dates Sabena from Bristol £174 ..... hmmmm?

[caaardiff]

Thomson are having a bad week at Cardiff. 3 tech aircraft in 3 days.
GBYAA returned to stand with engine problem on Wed afternoon, left thurs morning after pax put in hotels.
GOBYB brought in to do thurs morning scheduled PMI flight, returned to stand on leaving with engine problem!
GTHOJ CWL-AGP stuck in Bordeaux after apparently diverting due to smoke in cockpit, lengthy delays still looming!
BOU apparently also experiencing delays, PMI - BOU 4 hr delay, anyone know if their 733 gone to rescue CWL AGP pax??

[PhilM]

and G-THOL (OJ's replacement) takes a delay on positioning in to take OJ's passengers!

...oh, and XL is AOG downroute, its ok though, spares are on a light aircraft on their way to Turkey :{

[caaardiff]

PhilM

Yeah heard the crew were delayed in southend due to either being delayed because of a road accident...or actually being in the road accident!
Oh and forgot to mention XLA was also tech for 6 hrs on thurs. What a wk!
Anyone else wanna join in? Baby? MYT? (i think First Choice have already had their fair share!)
:ugh::ugh:

[Aloon]

And another incident involving a Air south west a/c, not bein chocked until after the aircraft was offloaded and the passengers had got off the plane

Sh:t happens!! But why did the a/c come onto stand without a marshaller?? ALL marshellers chock a/c!! Why were pax offloaded without chocks inplace?? ALL staff are aware of the requirements...... Assumptions all 'round I think... Pressure for turn around times these days add to inefficiencies in service level expected for minimum expenditure!! It's a farce where safety 'can' be compromised in these situes....

[rampboy767]

Aircraft should wait until a marshaller is present on stand unless an airport has a self docking system, which if CWL is like BRS then they dont and rely on a marsheller. Aircraft should never taix onto stand which out guidence, because there could be a hazard on stand like FOD or equipement still left on stand by ground crews. I think the fact that at CWL aircraft are taxing onto with out guidence and no chocks in place after shutdown just reflected the serivce that avaince gives its airlines. Safety Over Speed!

[Aloon]

Indeed, the majority of stands are free standing.. We only have 3 airbridges which will only take certain a/c coz they are SO old.....


Aircraft should never taix onto stand which out guidence
( More pissed than me heh??!! )
Verry much agreed... But they do.. And why do they????

If ATC gives instruction to 'standby', 'hold position' or ' your slot time is...' Do they ignore these too??!! I think.. well KNOW not!!

So why is it that pilots are so impatient that they can't wait a min or two for a marshaller???? OK, he should be there at arrival but sh:t happens...... So much is expected of ground crew, I don't think that some pilots reralise!! If FOD was ingested and caused a problem... who is to blame???? Marshaller can't check a stand he's not fisically at!!! Pilot decided to taxi himself.... Yet lack of ground crew ( marshaller ) would be the first comlaint!!

Why are SERVISAIR ( who handle air southwest btw ) allowing dissembarkation without chocks inplace???? Pressure on ground staff again!!

Cones.. Well what a joke they are!!! DO NOT APPROACH AN A/C WITHOUT CONES INPLACE..... Oh coz they are really gonna stop someone in their track from hitting a plane!! Buggered APU?? Well I shouldn't give you a GPU untill beacon off, chocks inplace and coned!! So how is it that the chances of me hitting your plane in this situation are higher!!! I see your plane and avoid it!!! It's not hard!!! No other companies involved take any notice of cones..... But ground handlers are to blame again!! Yet why does the fueler approach an a/c without cones?? The bog drop man will do it too.... and cleaners.... and caterers...... Are they exempt from this rule???? I think not... but they NEVER get a ticking off!!!!

All have gone through the errrrm, sh:t computer driving test and should know the rules of the apron!!

Ground handlers seem to be VERRY under-valued... I think it's time to change and recognise the hard work done by ground handlers at CWL... OK It's not perfect.. but who is????If cabin crew are late... No one batters any eye-lid.. yet if your six down on the ground... There's hell to pay!!! For doing your job to the best of your ability and circumstances..........

[FunFlyin]

Why are SERVISAIR ( who handle air southwest btw ) allowing dissembarkation without chocks inplace???? Pressure on ground staff again!!


Indeed servisair are the handling agents for Air Southwest.... But the ramp handling is subcontracted out to Aviance

[Aloon]

I know this... But it's a fairly recent thing which has resulted in Aviance taking on all of Airway staff.... Who are?? All together, part of the puenell sevices, sevisair, airway.. all the same!!!! Takes time to change!! Attitudes and a new approach are hard to mimplement in 'seasoned' staff.... So many 'new' staff and not so many Aviance staff have formed the 'new' Aviance Ramp handling...

Put it this way.. the apron is run as it was with Airway, just more work and more people.... It's not working!! A name change is all that's happened..... same people running the show!!! ( so I'm told )

Perhaps this is why I've seen trainers from other stations and a station manager from 'somewhere' else up here overlooking and improving the ramp handling ( from what I can gather! ).. Needs to be done in my experience with them!!! Loads of training going on... A damn good thing!!!

[PhilM]

Things with ramp seem to be improving, good work lads :ok: Heard a few of you guys were off sick due to the paint fumes from the new walkways? :confused:

Security seem to have come up with another ingenious plan to foil terrorism and make the world a safer place!!! We now cannot pass through the scanners with our hi-vis vests on, we must remove them....wtf?! If the scanner doesnt go off, it doesnt go off. What would be under our hi-vis?! So if we remove the hi-vis, maybe we'll have to remove our shirts next?! :ugh:

Madness!

[Aloon]

Or even our trousers!!! I think some security employees enjoy their job a little too much!!! SORRY!!

What the hell can you hide under a hi-vis that you can't in a leatherman that you put through the x-ray machine???

[On standby]

Can I just check, you guys are allowed leathermans?

We're not allowed them on the flight deck. If this is for security, what is there to stop one you passing it on to us, once through security.

I'm not saying you would do it but that it would be possible.

[caaardiff]

Security at HMP-CWL does seem to be going a bit over the top and the staff are getting alot more 'friendly' shall we say :=
Anyone know if other airports are like this? The whole Hi-Viz thing seems a bit extreme, they dont make people wearing suit jackets take them off.
Maybe they fancy themselves as trend setters and hope this will catch on throughout the world and they will be famous for being so clever. (Ha!) :ugh:

[Aloon]

Engineers are allowed..

As you say, what's stopping them from passing it on??

I have access to knives, forks, drills and saws.... All are required air-side but where are security at the a/c??? Oh of course, unless you're going to the states!!! You WON'T see them!!!!

If security air side is so vigilant.... why are airlines allowed to leave a/c without security seals on doors and holds???

Yet the ones that do implement seals, get all the credit and all hell breaks loose if one is broken by say the caterers or cleaners!!

All security one side.. nothing the next!!! No seals, no security issue!!!:=

One hell of an industry, one hell of difference in every circumstance!!

[caaardiff]

TOM having more trouble at CWL it seems! Yesterdays LPA not leaving til 12.30pm and operating back into MAN. And CUN operating from Gatwick??
TOM seem to be having bad patches throughout the season all over the country.
Any know whats going on at CWL yesterday/today?

[Theplanemanuk]

:mad: Rumour has it that Continental are going to start a 5xweekly newark-cardiff service in summer schedule 07. Also Thompsonfly will be carrying out a major expansion in cardiff, (especially to European destinations.) With 6+ operations being realeased soon!!!!!!!!:eek:

[caaardiff]

Sounds great news!
New York is long overdue. But i cant see Continental operating it. Thats would affect their BRS operation quite a lot!! The only way it would work x5 wkly would be to pull out of BRS, cant see that happening. Possibly another carrier?
Its about time GSM got down here with Short and Long Haul. Baby seem to be going nowhere at the moment with CWL (or anywhere else for that matter)
TOM possibly will be operating a number of new routes through the winter - Innsbruck - Salzburg and a few others, as well as keeping the high frequency ALC and AGP routes.
Any idea on what these other routes will be?

[Theplanemanuk]

Yes, Definatley on Continental. The Bristol service will be 5xweekly only next summer and due to poor loads may be cut but i think thats a bit ulikley too. Plane man:ok:

[Theplanemanuk]

sorry only skimmed your message:O I cant reallytell you what the new routes are but i can say thyre all European and starting for the summer season 07

[Theplanemanuk]

the routhe will be in Greece, Egypt, Italy anf France but shhh:ok:

[pipertommy]

Why would Continental use Cardiff if Bristol is`nt working:confused:

[Theplanemanuk]

I dont really know why, maybe because its further from lhr so more people, especially Americans will use the sevice.(mostly brits on brs-newark flights) also maybe larger tourism base. but they definetley are coming in summer07 5xweekly.

[TwinAisle]

Why would Continental use Cardiff if Bristol is`nt working

An excellent question. The only real reason is if CO have had a bust-up with BRS over charges, or something similar, or the BRS runway is causing them problems. No sign of either, so I really can't believe that they would transfer their operations to CWL. AS Caaaardiff rightly says, they really can't do BRS and CWL without hammering their yields, which defeats the object.

As for Thomsonfly, well I would imagine they probably are going to add routes from Cardiff. They are at heart a charter operator and will fly wherever they are chartered to. Can I guess at Heraklion, Sharm, more Naples (or possibly even a Venice for the cruise market) and as for France, I would guess Nice, again for the cruise market.

[Theplanemanuk]

Continental as far as i know are not pulling out of brs just reducing to 5x weekly year round. my contacts are in tom, cwl and a few other uk charters not continental so?

[Devonair]

Would CO be eligible for a grants from the Welsh Assembly if they did move their operations to CWL?

From an inbound tourism perspective, In terms of Marketing the route out of the US the Wales Tourist Board has far more money for promoting routes than South West Tourism.

[Theplanemanuk]

Would CO be eligible for a grants from the Welsh Assembly if they did move their operations to CWL?

From an inbound tourism perspective, In terms of Marketing the route out of the US the Wales Tourist Board has far more money for promoting routes than South West Tourism

Most definatley as the cwl route would brong more us tourists into wales than brs does to the south west as its in England and closer to LHR
Far more money and more than that plus the route development fund plus it being a new destination so large discount from cwl airport.

[CWL_Chris]

I guess that if CO did come to CWL, they would use the 752, right?

Regards,
Chris

[Theplanemanuk]

Most definatley and as they get 10737-900er soon there will be more expansion tran altlantic to europe and cwl.

[flower]

There is an article in tonights Echo about Zoom expanding its operations from Cardiff, with the potential for flights to major cities in the USA and also Cuba.
The article says they are waiting to see about licences and intend expanding at there current UK bases and that includes Cardiff.

[bycrewlgw]

would that announcement have anything to do with GSM? They announced a while back that they would operate to those destinations possibly from CWL.
Whoever operates the routes will be great for the Welsh capital and the people of Wales and the West!

[Theplanemanuk]

Its true that Zoom recentley applied for a license to fly cwl to usa and cuba (5 routes infact) but none of these will be in the new york area. Continental will be flying this route next year.:ok:. Also it will be a few years until zoom flys these routes a they will entialy concentrate on LGW and MAN airports until they build up there fleet. I also highly doubt flyglobespan will come to cwl this side of 2010 if ever.

[bycrewlgw]

Would CO offer the the CWL rotations as 'extra capacity' to the area? I mean if they dropped BRS down to 5xweekly rotations and flew the CWL route on the off days plus the extra 3 days they could market it as 3xdaily to BRS (on booking systems you can type LON for London and get all flights into the London area) as CWL is not that far from BRS. An hour seems to be quite an acceptable transfer time nowadays.

[Theplanemanuk]

I doubt they would offer cwl as extra capicity as the flight would be most attractive on weekdays so the service would be needed then. And i dont think that co would count cwl as brs on searches as they are not exactly ryanair plus mor likley to be London Bristol International Than Cardiff Bristol.

[flower]

Theplanemanuk ,

I am curious as to where you get you " info" from and why you are adamant that Continental is reducing its service out of Bristol. There is nothing to be found on it's website.
I am happy to be proved wrong but would think Zoom has more likelihood of being a successful US destination airline from Cardiff than Continental , we are too close to Bristol with limited population density for Continental to work both airports and they are already successful with Bristol on the route. Whilst for commercial reasons they may reduce their flights out of Bristol I think that would make them less likely than more to also operate from Cardiff.

[Theplanemanuk]

My 'info' is from a senior pilot friend in Continental who tells me that they will be coming to cwl next year and have alredy applied for a license from DOT.

[flower]

Theplanemanuk

Ah the famous I know someone who knows something as opposed to hard facts. I have heard such rumours from pilot friends about all sorts of things regarding routes, aircraft numbers etc before, they often don't come to fruition :rolleyes:

[Theplanemanuk]

I havent heard somthing from someone but from a credible source from a continental pilot in his lets say senior years with just as a senior ranking within the company. a Release date for the route will be this year. your pesessissum (sorry for spelling) leads me to believe that you dont want a service to nyc.:ugh:

[flower]

No i have just heard such rumours before on this site all off which come to nothing. I have also not heard any such rumours about this at and around the airport.
Perhaps I am being more realistic about this, time will tell but with Continental operating out of an airport so close to Cardiff and you claiming its services being reduced I find the sums don't appear on the surface to add up. ( I doubt very much the services from Bristol will be reduced either just another rumour with nothing to back it up)
Until an official announcement is made I am afraid i will take it with that pinch of salt :rolleyes:

[Theplanemanuk]

sorry flower but can you elaborate on the sums dont work out?

[MerchantVenturer]

planeman

flower is a highly respected CWL ATCO who I would suggest is far more likely to be aware of credible rumours affecting her airport than someone relying on information of pilot acquaintances. How often do we hear that airline staff are the last to learn of developments affecting their airline?

I know from previous posts that flower is a great supporter of her airport and Wales in general and, without putting words in her mouth, I have no doubt she would be delighted with any new routes from CWL, to NYC or elsewhere, so long as they were sustainable.

It may be that your information turns out to be correct, however unlikely that may seem to some of us at present.

However, you do not help your cause by posting on the BRISTOL thread that it has been officially announced that CO EWR to BRS is to be reduced to 5 days a week next summer.

I can't find any reference to this on the CO site and at present a daily service is shown for summer 07 on the airline's web booking engine.

Where can I find this announcement and which days are not being flown?

In the meantime I think that increased transatlantic work by Zoom from CWL is more likely.

[flower]

Merchant Venturer thank you for the kind words and no you are not putting words in my mouth at all, as you say I am a strong defender of CWL as are many of us this side of the water, saying that I am equally pleased to see the growth at Bristol ( that growth helps pay my salary :ok: )

Zoom is the far more likely option for Cardiff , having routes such as Boston Cuba and Washington plus the already established routes of Toronto and Vancouver benefit us all in the South West, complimenting nicely the Continental route from Bristol.
Zoom however have yet to confirm that there will be any additional routes from Cardiff yet they have just advised they are looking to expand their route network from existing UK bases of which Cardiff is one.
This year has seen growth at Cardiff and lets hope we see more, but routes do need to be sustainable I really cannot see how two Continental bases so close together with limited catchment areas could work, but as ever I'm happy to be proved wrong.

[TwinAisle]

To second MV's comments... Flower is indeed a great and knowledgeable (professional) supporter of CWL. Those who know who I am will know my views on CWL, which are not massively different to Flower's....

It makes ZERO sense for CO to:

1. Cut services from BRS to allow for CWL services
2. To start additional services from CWL to the US.

Theplaneman, can I recommend the works of Rigas Doganis, in particular his works on the economics of the industry? You'll find them on amazon.co.uk. They provide a good introduction to airline economics, and will help you see the wisdom in Flower's and MV's comments.

Personally, I would suggest

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0198608977/sr=8-1/qid=1155161650/ref=pd_ka_1/202-3079088-6546221?ie=UTF8&s=gateway

as well. Anyway, "The Marriage of Figaro" is the Proms Concert tonight, so I'm out of here...:ok:

[Charlie Roy]

Theplanemanuk versus TwinAisle

Eitherway it'll be interesting to see who will be eating their words at the end of this :}

[TwinAisle]

Whatever.... I'm happy to eat my hat if CO start CWL services. I would gladly see Zoom start such services (as per Flower's predictions) - but as someone who earns his keep in this game, I really remain to be convinced of any logic at all in a CO CWL service....

Stranger things have happened.. but remember that airlines tend to be staffed by professionals. Planespotters may wish things to happen, and pilots may as well... but making money with aviation is a dark art that both groups have issues with.

Flower, I'll see you at the CO launch flight to the US from CWL..... I take my hat lightly sauted in garlic. You? :)

[Centre cities]

If the services do start the burning question is will they fill them and if they do at prices that make money.

Judging by the performance on some european routes I suspect not. always willing to be proved wrong.

Centre cities

[GrahamK]

AFAIK, CO have no plans to serve CWL.
BRS Is doing nicely for them (beating expectations I understand) and that the next UK destination for them will be STN (or NCL if they can get a favourable deal). LBA would be next in line after STN and NCL.

[flower]

Whatever.... I'm happy to eat my hat if CO start CWL
Flower, I'll see you at the CO lauch flight to the US from CWL..... I take my hat lightly sauted in garlic. You? :)


Indeed Twin Aisle with a touch of Balsamic Vinegar :E

[Theplanemanuk]

Sorry if ive upset you, but that is just what ive been told directly by what i'd call a credible source. Planeman

[Theplanemanuk]

Does anyone have any information on any new routes oute of CWL (not CO to Newark) Coming up. What about Emirates to DXB Or would BRS be more likley than CWL. :ok:

[crackling jet]

Does anyone have any information on any new routes oute of CWL (not CO to Newark) Coming up. What about Emirates to DXB Or would BRS be more likley than CWL. :ok:

yes, the day after co start ops from Cwl, Virgin Galactic will operate daily scheduled route to moon from Brs, ( i think i may have the same reliable source you have) !!!!!!!:ok:

[Theplanemanuk]

Virgin Galactic will operate daily scheduled route to moon from Brs

HAHAHA Really funny (Im being sarcastic) thats just stupid but a A330 to the southwest of the UK CWL or BRS is not that unlikley.

[flower]

Not sure what you question is there planeman?, A330 already operates out of Cardiff every summer to Florida courtesy of Monarch.

The Dubai one comes up every few months, I think it has to run a complete cycle every now and then :8

[Theplanemanuk]

Flower - the A330 i was reffering to was the one of Emirates flying to DXB.
Planeman

[flower]

Planeman if you do a search on Cardiff you will see that Dubai and Emirates comes up as a regular topic, it has been around for as long as I have worked at Cardiff which is over 6 years now and probabaly even longer than that
There was a time last year when it seemed highly probable, as to now I can't really say but there has been no further news on the local rumour mill on that one either.

[TwinAisle]

Planeman, can I suggest that you use the search function (on the menu bar above)....

There you'll find what Flower means when she says

The Dubai one comes up every few months, I think it has to run a complete cycle every now and then

Re new routes. A good place to start would be the Cardiff Airport plan, available on their website. Anyone looking to add services would be wise to use the airport's own data on what routes have a perceived business need. Same argument for EXT, BRS and any other airport....

(Edited to say, beaten to this comment by Flower!!!)

[Theplanemanuk]

Tried the search icon not much luck. could anyone post some links please. The only one which i found directly relating to emirates in english was this one.:ok:

On cwl master plan pdf but cant find info on route development. Anyone please

[flower]

Hehehe Twin Aisle I always liked the first and last word so what you expect ;)

[TwinAisle]

From the Cardiff Airport website, go to "About Us", then Masterplan is the bottom item in the left hand menu....

Typing "Cardiff Emirates" in the advanced search yields pages of links to threads....

Re last word - this thread could run and run!!! :ouch:

[flower]

Re last word - this thread could run and run!!! :ouch:

Sadly i think you could be right, what ever happened to the yawning smiley ?
:zzz:

[Theplanemanuk]

:ok: Ive found the masterplan but not new route details. Also if i type "Cardiff Emirates" the only thing that comes up is this thread. Any help on the matter.

[Theplanemanuk]

Could anyone offer any help on my predicemant of the cwl masterplan on futre destinations. Planeman (Thanks):ok:

[TwinAisle]

Can I suggest you spend some time reading it, before you ask us to spoonfeed you? There are loads of data in there, and with a bit of common sense, you will suss out quite quickly what the airport want....

Re search - have you asked the system to search all posts, not just the last month's worth (advanced search).

PS - why do you want to know all this info?

[LGS6753]

Dubai is developing faster than a Kodak film. Numerous apartments are being built, and money is no object. Developers are now starting to target monied private individuals in the West, and it won't be long before everyone wants to go there.
At that time, it will sustain flights from UK regional airports much as Almeria and Murcia do now. Because of the distance and the fact it's outside the EU, we can expect both UK and Dubai-based carriers to share the routes. I would expect it to feature increasingly, perhaps as a winter destination, in tour operators programmes, so expect to see it served by the likes of Britannia & Thomas Cook, as well as Emirates.

[Theplanemanuk]

Well once the destination of dubai becomes more developed the route probably will attract charter airlines. The only holiday company that offers a full range of holidays in dubai is Virgin Holidays with Virgin Atlantic (highly unlikley to serve CWL)
Emirates however is a airline with a large fleet on order with 45 A380(not coming to CWL) 24 773er, 10 772lr, and with 18 A340-600HGW orders on hold. (and not sure if they have A330 on order). So with this ever growing larger fleet is this really unlikley.
And with serving London heathrow and gatwick, Birmingham, Manchester and Glasgow in the UK would not an airport such as CWL really be that unlikley. With others like NCL and EDI.
:ok: PlaneMan


(http://www.answers.com/topic/boeing-777)

[TwinAisle]

The only holiday company that offers a full range of holidays in dubai is Virgin Holidays with Virgin Atlantic (highly unlikley to serve CWL)


Sorry, that's rot. Loads of companies do holidays in the UAE.

EK is a large and growing global airline. That does not mean they are eyeing up CWL. They have the whole world to play with, and FWIW, my guess is that they are getting close to saturation in the UK. They are double daily from BHX, and that puts the good people of South Wales within 90 minutes of a destination. They have great slices of the planet (and in Europe) where they don't have anything like that penetration, and they would probably go there first.

Can we get back to rumours with at least some basis in logic/hearsay, rather than pointless speculation on what we'd like in our dreams to see?

[Theplanemanuk]

Infact i was talking about the Emirates rumour in a previous posting. While i agree that other 'specilised' holiday companys will sell dubaio holidays no mainstream agent (tompson, first choice, airtours, my travel, thomas cook, not counting the many more) does. and certanly not their charter airlines.:ok: So it would make sense for them to add maybe 3/4 extra UK destinations.

[TwinAisle]

No package tours through mainstream companies....?

What about BA Holidays?

[bycrewlgw]

Hi guys n gals! A mate of mine is studying business studies at uni and is writing a business plan for his degree. As part of it he has to do proper market research (i'm not business minded so have no idea how he has gone about it lol )! Anyway from it he has concluded that scheduled services from CWL to CDG, MXP, FCO, FRA, MUC, CPN, BCN, MAD, NCE, ATH, PRG, NTE, WAW, JFK, LAX, MCO, IAD, PHL, YYZ, SIN, NRT, HKG, DXB & SYD would work using A320, A330 & A340 aircraft. I know its not real, but this does sound very far fetched well at least for some of the destinations anyway. He has asked me for some feedback and as I said I have no idea about business so if anyone could give some informed comments positive and negative he'd be really greatful!

Thanks guys!

BYCREWLGW

[LGS6753]

Market research -

When you ask someone "would you like a flight from your local airport to XYZ", most people will say yes.
The trick is to determine how many will use the service suggested, and how much they would pay.
If there was a simple answer, airlines wouldn't go bust.......

[caaardiff]

There's all this talk of several new routes etc etc etc.
Has anyone thought of how the airport will cope with the expansion?
This year, Take the busy days, you can just about get a seat in the departure lounge.....take busy days with a delay...lots of cold bums on the floor even!!
Look at the layout.
In my view there are only 3 stands that can take larger aircraft.... 6/7/10 - Stand 10 A320 up to 763 - Stand 7 757 up to A330 - Stand 6 up to 747.
what happens if more than 3 heavies are in at once? Echo of course! Hardly a proper plane stand for a functioning international airport.
Also at some points throughout the day there aren't even any stands available!
There are just about enough check-in desks available to cope with this years work. And the baggage belt is about as much use as a chocolate ashtray when its busy!
If any major expansion by Zoom CO (:confused: ) TOM etc is announced for next year or in the next few years then CIAL need to get this masterplan into action now, not 2030!
Also some TOM route news.... Innsbruck, Chamberry, Salzburg, and quite a few Cruise flights announced for this winter

[bycrewlgw]

Cool so that brings the TOM flights upto four with FAO x 4 weekly next year so that still leaves 2 routes. Any ideas? SSH maybe ? Was TOMs most demanded route from CWL last winter. Any other Longhaul now that POP has gone ?

[caaardiff]

FAO x4 weekly????
TOM have never operated that route before out of CWL, and with baby and MYT operating it, is x4 wkly viable?
With TOM chopping and changing aircraft around, anything could be announced with regards to Long-haul. and POP has been quite popular this year. It just what the prices were to make it so popular which could have been the cause of them dropping it. A direct CUN service could possibly work?
Hopefully through the winter and next year we wont get G-THOJ! Constant problems with it, was stuck in malaga the other day for over 15hrs with a tech prob!

[bycrewlgw]

Yeah the FAO is a scheduled service according to the brochure operates mon thurs fri and sun

[PhilM]

THOJ is a good ship, any aircraft can go tech, doesn't mean its a bag of spanners, just means one component has gone u/s, a relay for example...

[MerchantVenturer]

As for the long-distance routes floated in his survey by bycrewlgw's pal, many of them are already available from CWL via AMS.

Over the years I have used this connection for inter-continental travel many times, admittedly from BRS but the principle is the same, although not since KLM were taken over by Air France.

I have read through the CWL draft master plan and no specific new long-haul scheduled routes are mentioned as likely to be viable during the period of the plan (until 2030), although significantly larger totals of long-haul sched pax are forecast, so some new l-h sched routes will eventuate.

In its draft master plan BRS states that demand for such routes from its catchment is limited and specifically mentions only four as being realistic during the next twenty-four years, viz, New York (already operating), Washington, another US destination which it thinks might be Atlanta and Dubai. This is based on perceived demand, not airport infrastructure limitations. BRS does, however, believe that l-h charter flights will blossom.

I would think that CWL would be in a not dissimilar position as regards likely demand.

If Dubai becomes the massive hedonistic destination that appears to be developing there, I don't think it is rocket science to say that within ten years there will be flights from a lot of UK airports, in the same way that Sharm el Sheik has become popular in recent years.

[Evileyes]

OK folks. Lots of recent posts in this thread have been ppruned. Some posters are having a rest. What say we talk about Cardiff specific topics this time?

If someone has a dream Cardiff to Honolulu direct route they are welcome to post it for discussion and ride the wild waves.

However, asking “where can you fly to from Cardiff” is a stretch. Asking “tell me everything about Cardiff because I’m too lazy to do a search and read it myself” is right out.

Cheers,
Evileyes

[Antdenatale]

Well, I flew from Cardiff for the first time today, and to be honest not that impressed. I found the staff there very good and helpful, but the depatures area seems very small. Granted I was there at 8am when there was a flight to Orlando delayed and another due to leave at 11am. It just seems too small with not much there.

I did fly with Eastern Airways, and apart from both the outbound and inbound flights being late (which was out of their control - weather problems) I was a little blown away by the customer service on board, it was very good and you can see why they don't class themselves as a low cost carrier :D:D:D:D

[TwinAisle]

In fairness, this is the one day of the week that I have thought that Cardiff's departure area is an issue - the two MCO flights really fill it up (they are VERY popular!) and if they start running into delays, the rest of the day's services get bunged up as well. My only real criticism of the departure area is the lack of a runway view, but that seems to be an increasing feature of airports these days....

[flower]

Apparently, although I have yet to have the figures confirmed, there has been an increase this year of a million Pax on last year. The terminal is too small especially on days there are US flights made even worse of course with the additional security restrictions.
If you can take a look from airside however you will see quite extensive building work going on to increase the size of the building, we are told there is even more to come, lets hope it does increase the departure lounge size.

[pipertommy]

Hi all,apparently they start work on extending the departures lounge in November,after they take down that weird white dome thing!All that area will be built on.Basically filling in the L-shape on the corner(in front of stand 1)

[PeterP]

Apparently, although I have yet to have the figures confirmed, there has been an increase this year of a million Pax on last year.

Bit of an over-statement. CWL is currently running over 12 per cent up on last year - that means a couple of hundred thousand extra pax, not a million. Still, it means Cardiff is one of the UK's fastest growing airports.

[pipertommy]

Whats happened to Eastern airways?The J41 has gone for abit?

[TwinAisle]

BRU is a business route (have been saying this for a while now ;)) and the service is suspended for the holiday season. Back in September.

Sensible business decision!

[f1-6 sabre boy]

It appears that dragon have their aircraft temporaraly doing the bru route at the minute, rumour i heard was that eastern don't have enough aircarft to cope with their routes and tech probs at the mo! true or not, who knows?

[TwinAisle]

Not the issue at Cardiff. Try booking CWLBRU or vv - no flights until September.

Who are Dragon?

[f1-6 sabre boy]

Dragon air, little company next door to the flying club, got a king air or somthing similar.

[TwinAisle]

Ah. Dragonfly! ;)

[f1-6 sabre boy]

That's the one:ok: , i'm loosing it here.

[bamcb38c]

globespan website is offereing cwl to yyz from november on. another 767 coming to cwl?

[airhumberside]

Those flights are operated by Zoom with a GSM codeshare

[bamcb38c]

oopsie my bad, got a little trigger happy there.

[pipertommy]

Do you mean Dragonfly are covering the route for eastern:confused:

[MerchantVenturer]

Not the issue at Cardiff. Try booking CWLBRU or vv - no flights until September.
TA,

I tried a few test bookings in the Eastern web booking engine and couldn't find any available flights in September.

The first date I could find with availability was Monday 2 October.

Having regard to the fact that the CAA June and July figures for the CWL-BRU route were 509 pax and 488 pax respectively (giving an average load of between 6 and 7 if all rotations were flown in those months), I can't believe that all flights in September are fully booked already.

It seems the route is taking a slightly longer holiday.

As you said BRU is primarily a business route and the more established SNBrussels BRS-BRU always drops from 3 rotations per day to 2 from mid-July to early September each year.

Eastern must still think there is mileage for them in a BRU link because I believe they are to start a MME-BRU.

[TwinAisle]

Well, I stand corrected! It makes sense for Eastern to suspend the route - BRU will start again as soon as the European Parliament and all the other institutions kick off again. October it is then!!

[BAforever]

Im flying out of CWL on Saturday to Palma with Tompsonfly. Will the lack of Dispatch affect if the plane leaves late? As im only going for two days. Thanks for any info.

[Fernando_Covas]

TOM are handled by the circus not Aviance. Avaince will only provide the ramp services.

[BAforever]

Good to know, but Aviance and servisair were i thought the only major handling agents at CWL

[Fernando_Covas]

They are. Signature run the VIP side of things and the flying club most of the GA stuff.

[Gary Lager]

AvianceUK -

Bir concerned about your last post - I'm a CWL-based pilot handled (usually to good standards) by you chaps; if you'd like to PM me with any safety issues you'd like to discuss (in complete anonymity and confidence, of course), I'd be more than happy to take them up with our bosses on everybody's behalf.

To be honest, I'd rather go late than have anyone break rules on the ramp - they're there for a reason!!!

GL

[AvianceUK]

Cheers for the recognition!!

I will PM you but for the public record......

The majority of the safety concerns are to ground staff with things like manual handling, working alone and lack of experiance.....

Rushing around due to lack of staff causes more injuries (manual handling), and instances of violation (like not enough boarding staff to watch pax, and they wonder off!)(dispatcher handling two flights at once...)... All has caused a severe lack of moral which in turn reflects on our service and willingness..... A lack of an adequate break to eat this summer has been the biggest gripe... On a 12 hour shift and wolfing your food down in 5 mins does no-one any good!!

So sorry if we don't always look happy to be here!!!! There have been better times!!

[cym]

Any idea when the new TOM services to FAO, CMF, INN & SZG will be bookable - nothing currently on their search engine

[AvianceUK]

Read the link for news....

http://www.uk-airport-news.info/cardiff-airport-news-300806.htm

Good luck to him.... Hope to see some good development in the near future...

[BAforever]

Me too. But I am wondering whether CWL will get any new long-hauls next year?:ok:

[CWL_Chris]

I notice that Eastern Airways are operating CWL-BRU today. Is the route back for now then?

Regards,
Chris

[TwinAisle]

They don't seem to have operated the second BRU (no arrival on the BRU website, no arrival at CWL), and the website is still showing nothing until 2 Oct....

[BAforever]

Eastern just cant seem to make up their minds when the routes will start and its all very confusing:confused: Sept 11 Oct 2/3 and now this, just what are they doing.:ok:

[Hawk]

One of the Forum's "regular" spotters has been posting here and other threads on this Forum. Thank you to the professionals who took the time to respond to his posts. Nevertheless, the poster's latest question has been split off and is now in Spotters Forum.. under "Cardiff Flight Question". Doesn't effect any other discussion on this thread.
Thank you
Hawk

[PhilM]

Zzzz, why is this thread so dead? ;) Must say routes arn't my thing, and as such I don't get involved in discussion with it, but, theres plenty more interesting things that have happened recently at CWL that have gone unnoticed here....
The bomb scare on BMI Baby a week ago, the Harrier that has been here the past 24hrs, the new walkways looking nearly ready etc... :ouch:

[Evileyes]

Let me guess, you were the wallflower type at dances right Phil? If you have a topic, maybe you should ummm......post it?

[PhilM]

;)

Seems Thomson's run of bad luck has gone on, G-THOG grounded all day today.

Whats happening with ramp these days? Seems very few people out and about, even the guys in shirt & ties (I presume managers/supervisors) are driving the bagage carts about, having staffing problems?

Glad to see security have gone back to old ways outside the terminal, when they coned all of the dropoff area the roads turned to chaos! Nearly had a few people/cars try and plant themselves in the side of our van when driving to/from the staff carpark! - If only they'd decide whetehr they are allowing drinks airside or not for staff....seems to change on a daily basis! :ok:

[caaardiff]

Thomson have had a terrible summer all over for tech delays and such,not just Cardiff. However in my opinion they have done extremely well in minimizing delays for passengers, lucky they have quite a large fleet to bring in replacements. The 767's have been suffereing all over, but it seems their 737's are the biggest problem though. Any idea whats wrong with GTHOG?

Ramp are suffereing with lack of skilled staff. I expect it take times to train up new staff on certain things. At least when this new 'walkway' is open it will take the pressure off the bus drivers who seem to go from one gate to the next all day long.

And as the security saga still goes on, i just wish someone will decide on some logical rules and stick to them! And then get some extra staff in for security search point at departures. Mornings are a nightmare with queues often to the information desk, that last quite some time, surely resulting in passengers missing their flights.

[PhilM]

OG had a problem with the linkage on the nose gear, that links the actual gear to the gear bay doors (so the doors shut as gear retracts).

Just the way of the world with older aircraft though, the 737 classics are getting on a bit and things do occasionally fail. Saying that, BMI Baby haven't had many problems this season. Though I do recall shortly after OJ (Thomson) went tech with standby power problems, one of the Baby 737s had exactly the same fault...seem to come in pairs! spooky!.

The MyTravel A320 and Excel's 737NG both seem to be doing very well though!

[cym]

See news section on website for details - looks like they're pulling out of mme to concentrate on core bases.

[bycrewlgw]

So we know of 2 new TOM destinations (FAO x 4 Weekly and INN x 1 Weekly) so what are the others? anyone know ?

[caaardiff]

...CMF for winter as well... Are TOM operating the FNC, or is FCA operating it with TOM using seats?
It seems TOM have recognised the 733's are getting on a bit by getting some 738's, i believe some of the 733/735's, if not most are ex EZY? so they would have been pushed before, and TOM definately push their A/c to their limits!
The FCA 320 hasnt been a success story unfortunately. Thats been terrible all season.
Agreed Baby have had quite a good summer, as well as XL and MYT. Maybe the Storm guys should work on extra commission with TOM!! :ok: :p
Great news about baby's 4th aircraft. Its about time someone got their act together to get a proper operation out of CWL. Hopefully TOM may have another 737 at CWL for next year also, or maybe 1 based and 1 split part week.
Anyone any updates on Zoom's UK operation? It would be great to see at least 1 or 2 extra long hauls from CWL, even if its a split load. :ok:

[PhilM]

Aye, great news about baby's 4th aircraft.

I've heard the romour Thomson may be getting a 2nd 737, not that convinced though - would be great however. XL are here for the next 3 years so I heard, with their NG, possibly even a bigger aircraft aswell (75/767?) for next summer.

The one thing I'd like to see though is for MyTravel to fly through the winter.

[PhilM]

On a side note....since there isn't a St Athan thread, and with no commercial flights in/out of there there probably wont be one....but I noticed a localiser antenna at the end of the runway at Saints the other day?!

Unless I've not noticed it for the past three years, ti must have gone up recently, whos paying for that?! What with ATC Lasham pulling out, Dara pulling out, RAF mostly gone, who's left, with a requirement for ILS and enough use to justify it?.

[caaardiff]

Apparently we wont be getting XL's new 744's at CWL, but probably their 767's. So maybe more than just SFB long haul? Which other airports in the UK do XL do long haul flights from?
Some of the XL loads have been quite succesful, however some havent been that great, but again its down to yield.
Totally agree again about MYT coming back all year round. Notice from another thread though that their profits for this year havent gone as well as planned.
With FAOx4 weekly, and JER x4/5 weekly finally on TOM a/c theres a great possibility of a 3rd TOM a/c. Look at DSA, BOH and CVT, they have a number of small aircraft, and TOM do seem to have their sights set high for CWL.
...Watch this space...

:ok:

[bamcb38c]

lasham have left due to the wda renaging on their promises of financial help and support.you'll have to trust me on this one but this has been done to force lasham out (they werent paying any rent as part of the deal so it was easy for them to walkaway with no contract present) to make way for another larger scale maintenance orginisation with an anouncment by the wda on who in the next month or two.

[PhilM]

A new MRO coming in, sounds good to me! Any ideas who? Feel free to send me a PM :ok:

[pipertommy]

Hi Phil,Whats an MRO:confused:
Is Air Scotland going to be working out of Cwl?Gotcardiff on its site Advertising Link Removed or is it a share?

[caaardiff]

They've been operating for the past 3/4 weeks now. Split with Norwich normally.
Cant keep up with them though, so far they've had 4 different departure times ranging from 0820, 2305, N0005, and tonight its now 2110, however i notice a 'Next Info 2115' delay on it. Cant be good organisation if you have a new departure time every week.
I've seen thier weekly shedule and the aircraft doesnt stop. Their first CWL bound flight consisted of NWI-GRO-NWI-CWL-GRO-CWL-MAN-GRO, all in one evening/early hours

[Rachman]

I've seen thier weekly shedule and the aircraft doesnt stop. Their first CWL bound flight consisted of NWI-GRO-NWI-CWL-GRO-CWL-MAN-GRO, all in one evening/early hours

:confused:
That's some going to do Gerona 3 times in one evening!!!?

[Rachman]

So, Monday is optimistically named as the big day for the new passenger walkway.
Passengers lucky enough to make it through security will now be faced with a 250 metre walk to a boarding gate with NO TOILET facilities and no other faciliies, unless you're flying on KLM when you might get a seat to sit on.
I would suggest that 50% of the problems encountered by handling staff are down to the physical layout of the airport. It never was and never will be designed to work as a coherent unit. But that's what you get with piecemeal development and lack of foresight.
They should have started from scratch on the South side and ideally that should have been coming on line this winter for an operational shake-down in time for next summer.
Missed the boat? Not half as much as our passengers are going to miss their planes!

[BAforever]

http://www.uk-airport-news.info/cardiff-airport-news.htm


German airline Lufthansa is considering operating services from more UK airports, including Bristol, Cardiff and Southampton airports.
Speaking to industry newspaper Travel Weekly, the airline's UK and Ireland general manager Dieter Grotepass said that Lufthansa was looking at operating flights from other hubs to ease congestion caused by the recent security alert at Heathrow.
Lufthansa's passenger traffic at airports outside London has been steadily growing, he said, adding: 'Growth from regional airports has been up ten percent to twelve percent since July and is increasing, especially from Manchester and Birmingham.'


So what do you think is the chance of CWL getting one of these Lufthansa flights, or if they choose BRS will CWL become unviable?:ok:

[Rachman]

http://www.uk-airport-news.info/cardiff-airport-news.htm
So what do you think is the chance of CWL getting one of these Lufthansa flights, or if they choose BRS will CWL become unviable?:ok:
Germany currently not served from CWL since BmiBaby withdrew from their popular MUC route except via AMS on KLM. There is a case for MUC and perhaps STR but not sure about frequencies.
Whether both CWL and BRS get a service or only one of us won't matter a jot to the other airport.
Let's hope they choose both!
R

[WATABENCH]

Lufthansa rumour has been in BRS for a while, however I would think CWL may be better for them as BRS already has quite a few EZY-SXF&HAM, OLT-HAM&BRE, BA-DUS,MUC&FRA. Maybe you guys over the bridge may strike lucky with that one, also heard a rumour that XL were going to pull their 737 from CWL next year, anyone over there herd that? seems a strange move to me, i thought they were doing ok over there? :confused:

[MerchantVenturer]

BAforever

Interesting that the reason seems to be the security-related congestion at the major airports. We discussed this recently with reference to transatlantics and wondered whether regional airports might become more attractive for the same reason.

As for BRS or CWL, BRS already has a substantial German route network: BACon daily to MUC and 6 x weekly to FRA and DUS; easyJet daily to SXF and 6 x weekly to HAM, although the latter is to cease in October; OLT double daily 5 x per week to HAM and BRE.

On that basis it might be thought that CWL, with no German connection at present, could be more likely. However, airlines would of course decide where the better profits are likely to be so the answer to your question must really be "who knows?", although CWL does have access to that RDF which might help a bit.

On a separate topic, there is a post in the Excel thread saying that airline is to cease its programme from CWL, EMA and HUY from next year.

I haven't heard that one before. Is this likely?

edit: WATABENCH - we must have been typing at the same time! Thought transference?

[Rachman]

Anyone who tries to fly CWL - Sharm on a 737-800 deserves to have their a/c pulled! It is not up to it. Many bags left behind on 2 occasions I know of -and we're talking 50-80 bags. Just has not got the performance for the route. This is ideal 757 route.

[WATABENCH]

Who do viking airways operate for over there? They left 80 bags on HER yesterday, FCA kindly took 43 of their bags to HER from BRS meaning the 321 was at its take off limit for BRS, leaving a further 37 for the poor sods at SAir BRS to sort, seems to be a lot of bags to leave behind, what type of a/c is it?
Merchant - I herd that XLA rumour from a very good source in BRS yesterday, was very suprised, seems to me CWL takes 2 steps forward 1 step back at the mo :confused:

[MerchantVenturer]

WATABENCH

I believe Viking operates MD 83 aircraft and the Friday flight to CWL from HER routes via EXT inbound each week. Not sure of the tour operator (s).

As for taking one step back etc, it seems there is a bit of consolidation about at present at a lot of airports. For example our local airport at BRS has lost several routes this coming winter, the latest to go seemingly the Flybe daily TLS which originally was shown to be operating through the winter.

Maybe the easyJet competition on the route has taken its toll.

[caaardiff]

The remaining HER-EXT-CWL-HER VIK bags are hopefully on a TOM BRS-HER flight in the morning. Theres never been a problem before, possible error by the captain for load requirements?
Also the excel rumour is circuling CWL, Excel crews apparently already been issued letters regarding it.
Would this mean a concentration on BRS? Or would they utilise the aircraft on their new Ireland operation?
Passengers lucky enough to make it through security will now be faced with a 250 metre walk to a boarding gate with NO TOILET facilities and no other faciliies, unless you're flying on KLM when you might get a seat to sit on.
I would suggest that 50% of the problems encountered by handling staff are down to the physical layout of the airport. It never was and never will be designed to work as a coherent unit. But that's what you get with piecemeal development and lack of foresight.

Complete waste of time and money. When will CIAL start putting some proper ideas and investment into the airport?! And the big wigs actually spend one day dealing with what handling agents have to deal with every day!
Passengers have suffered cramped Check-in / lounges / arrivals facilities and badly planned and delayed works all summer. Now its nearly done they have to face a brand new 'school corridor', as thats what it feels like, with no facilities or seating and a badly designed maze that eventually gets you to an oversized immigration area but smaller baggage hall. Roll on Summer 07!:ok:

[Richard Taylor]

Any news down CWL way of a start date for CWL-ABZ...if there is one.

Still nothing from *T3, who previously announced they were to take over the route from 6G.

Noting WW are moving airframes out of MME, could they step in & announce a route to ABZ (having stolen a march on BE by announcing BHX-ABZ).

WW's MD Crawford Rix comes from Aberdeen...could this be of significance?

* T3 have announced they are to add 4 routes from ABZ without confirming where, so I suppose CWL could yet be one of them.

[MerchantVenturer]

Also the excel rumour is circuling CWL, Excel crews apparently already been issued letters regarding it.
Would this mean a concentration on BRS? Or would they utilise the aircraft on their new Ireland operation?

I doubt it would come to BRS as an additional unit.

BRS already has two based aircraft operating the Excel/Freedom Flights programme - an Excel 738 and an Air Malta 320 - that have been at Lulsgate through last summer and winter and this summer.

They might choose to replace the A 320 with one of their own aircraft (no idea what contract they have with Air Malta of course), but I would be very surprised if Excel saw the need for three aircraft at BRS.

But commercial aviation, like life itself, is full of surprises.

[Wellington Bomber]

With regards to T3

They are restarting CWL - BRU on the 2nd Oct which they stopped in August.

The a/c operating this twice a day service in August sat on the ground in CWL most of the day, was this a crewing issue? And if so as this now been resolved, how long does it take to crew a new base?

If this is now not a crewing problem, can you see T3 having an a/c sat on the ground all day during October, I think not!!!

Now, what destinations do you think are a possible

ABZ fits in, but could this be 1 of the 4 new routes from ABZ
CDG but this would be a new destination for T3
any where else could anybody think of?

[CWL_Chris]

Now, what destinations do you think are a possible

ABZ fits in, but could this be 1 of the 4 new routes from ABZ
CDG but this would be a new destination for T3
any where else could anybody think of?

I think that one of the four new routes to be launched from ABZ will be to CWL, a 2x daily service (Morning and Evening service). T3 would be suited to the CWL-CDG market, however I think that there is demand for a service with a 50-75 seater aircraft with a high frequency, rather than a T3 service with a J41 with 29 seats at 2x daily (not enough seats for the route) or a BMIbaby 737 with around 140 seats at 1x daily (you need a higher frequency of at least 2x daily on this route). If however T3 were to base a SAAB 2000 for the CWL-CDG route and possibly launch another route from CWL to use the Saab on, that could work.

As for other destinations I'd like to see T3 operating from CWL are; IOM and INV.

Regards,
Chris

[crackling jet]

I doubt it would come to BRS as an additional unit.

BRS already has two based aircraft operating the Excel/Freedom Flights programme - an Excel 738 and an Air Malta 320 - that have been at Lulsgate through last summer and winter and this summer.

They might choose to replace the A 320 with one of their own aircraft (no idea what contract they have with Air Malta of course), but I would be very surprised if Excel saw the need for three aircraft at BRS.

But commercial aviation, like life itself, is full of surprises.

Speaking to SRT engineers ( contracted engineers )at Brs a couple of weeks ago they say that they were expecting 2 Excel based units next year, together with the fact that Air Malta was awarded contract to operate flights on behalf of Excel for the next 3 years, it looks like it may be 3 units at Brs next year, just have to wait and see what next year turns up. got to fill up this winters apron extension with something !!

[FunFlyin]

I think that one of the four new routes to be launched from ABZ will be to CWL, a 2x daily service (Morning and Evening service). T3 would be suited to the CWL-CDG market, however I think that there is demand for a service with a 50-75 seater aircraft with a high frequency, rather than a T3 service with a J41 with 29 seats at 2x daily (not enough seats for the route) or a BMIbaby 737 with around 140 seats at 1x daily (you need a higher frequency of at least 2x daily on this route). If however T3 were to base a SAAB 2000 for the CWL-CDG route and possibly launch another route from CWL to use the Saab on, that could work.
As for other destinations I'd like to see T3 operating from CWL are; IOM and INV.
Regards,
Chris

Personally I'd rather see the route being run by Air Southwest with a stop off somewhere like southampton as an intermediate. :D

FF

[aeulad]

XL res staff have recieved an email stating the closure of the CWL base in S07.

Regards

Mike

[bycrewlgw]

First Choice are now operating their own flight to KGS next summer. Weren't they due to charter XL to do it on a Sat night? Anyway here are the details:

CWL --> KGS

FCA
1955 - 0150

KGS --> CWL

FCA
0250 - 0510

Goes out on a wed gets back thurs morning

BYCREWLGW

[cym]

bmibaby putting 3 x 733's into BHX from Jan. If they are still only increasing fleet by 4 next year (2 new and 2 ex mme) CWL could have a lot of competition to get the 4th......

[xtypeman]

Hearing lots of rummors as follows:

EA out of BRU
XL out next summer
WOW pulling out
Baby 4th a/c may not happen

Looks good for the new routes man

[Right Touch]

Heard Yesterday that Eastern are pulling out of Cardiff all together ,and Brussels route wont be restarted.

Local based cabin crew given notice of redundancy yesterday http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/infopop/icons/icon9.gif

[BAforever]

According to Excels website routes will be operated next year.

XL res staff have recieved an email stating the closure of the CWL base in S07.


The routes will be operaterd on behalf of Excel by Air Malta.:ok:

[WOWBOY]

Air Southwest and Eastern pulling out of CWL?

If they do that would leave a major whole in CWl's domestic network!

[TwinAisle]

A major whole (sic)?

What, Newquay? A Manchester service that frequently has loads in single digits?

Newcastle shouldn't be affected if the Cardiff base closes, it is flown on a NCL based aircraft.

I bet the airport would sweat if it lost EDI, GLA and BFS, but I can't see many tears being shed over these two domestic routes going....

[pipertommy]

Would`nt it be a good opportunity for Aer arran to take on the routes since they seem to be in out of Cwl alot anyway with Dublin,Gallway,Cork,Lorient and plus Jersey for Tom-fly.A base could be developed with Brussles,Aberdeen/Manchester,Paris,Isle of man,London/split with say Dublin?
And what has happended to the German route thats supposed to be in demand?

[MerchantVenturer]

According to Excels website routes will be operated next year.
The routes will be operaterd on behalf of Excel by Air Malta.:ok:

The only routes apparently currently bookable for next summer on Excel's web site are ACE, PMI, TFS and CFU.

The first two are shown as KM (Air Malta flights) operating as a 'W', the TFS is also a 'W' but with an XLA flight number and the CFU is shown as an XLA flight leaving CWL at 0600 on Mondays and returning at 1400.

I wondered if the KM was the BRS-based Airbus but next year's timetable shows it fully employed in and out of BRS on the dates in question.

[cym]

Looking at their Summer 07 schedule, by adding FAO it would appear that they will need to add another based aircraft. May well mean more routes to come as they are advising that further announcements will be made.

Anyone heard what they are considering?

[137park]

Eastern have confirmed they're pulling out of CWL-BRU. I tried to phone a booking today and they said nothing after 2/10

[AvianceUK]

Looking at the Eastern website, the Brussels timetable no longer appears!! It was there before, stating re-commencing on the 2nd of October....

Tried the booking agent for BRU on the 2nd and it states no flights available...

An indication perhaps??? Had a re-think??

NCL doing pretty well though with the business traveler....

[TwinAisle]

Looking at the Eastern website, the Brussels timetable no longer appears!! It was there before, stating re-commencing on the 2nd of October....


This thread, post #197.

[AvianceUK]

Can't see beyond my monitor!!!

Even the post before mine!! I must be in a cloud!!!

Any indication as to why though???

Oh, and that's stand 8 useless again then!!

[PhilM]

Here's a really wild romour, and quiet possibly a wind up, my mate got told this the other morning; that Virgin are looking at building a hangar southside for their Virgin Nigeria maintenance :confused:

I'd have thought any such move by Virgin would have been more likely at St Athan than Cardiff, but who knows eh? :ouch:

[TwinAisle]

You're very welcome, Aviance. We've all done it! :E

Re Virgin Nigeria. I did hear a strange rumour that St Athan was going to be making a major announcement shortly... haven't heard any more though. Could be connected?

[PhilM]

I've heard the same too regarding St Athan, but Virgin weren't one of the names mentioned!

[BAforever]

So, Eastern are stopping the BRU service? I never actually used the service though would like to go on holiday to Belgium, but Eastern was really cost prohibitive for me and the family. So what is the possibility of Aerran operating the route with an ATR 42? I would definatley use the service.:ok:

[bamcb38c]

st athans rumours are true but not for virgin nigeria. currently its between an joint SIA/LHT facility and an unnamed (but large) european outfit

[Wellington Bomber]

If Eastern can not make it work with a 29 seater what economic sense would it be for an operator with a 50 seater on the Brussels route:\

It would be commercial suicide, because I am sure they would not survive on BAForever's family contribution to the route

[cym]

Some of the interational routes for S07 on sale now - may soon find out re 4th 733

[aeroconejo]

Air Wales (despite the questionable management) regularly flew 30+ pax to BRU.............Eastern did not advertise their presence and fares were utterly daft................there is and always will be demand for CWL-BRU

aero ;)

[TwinAisle]

there is and always will be demand for CWL-BRU


Have to agree with that. BA ran the route for yonks with the J41, and latterly the 145, and got a healthy return. Good mix of business fares (up to £500 return in Club) and leisure fares (£99 was possible). Eastern's error seems to have been (a) little advertising and (b) assuming that everyone who used to pay £500 would come back. SNBA at BRS has had many converts since BA pulled out of CWL, and they even give BA Miles...

Eastern should have made this one work. It needs something like a J41. Air Wales made some decent progress on the route with the ATR42, but it is a tad big.

[babymax]

Aye, great news about baby's 4th aircraft.

I've heard the romour Thomson may be getting a 2nd 737, not that convinced though - would be great however. XL are here for the next 3 years so I heard, with their NG, possibly even a bigger aircraft aswell (75/767?) for next summer.

The one thing I'd like to see though is for MyTravel to fly through the winter.
just to let you know guys excel are closing their base in cardiff 5th november,next year all the flights except 4 will be operated by air malta.

[jetstream7]

...next year all the flights except 4 will be operated by air malta.

Err... no

There will be only 4 flights a week next year for XL from CWL compared to this years XL / Excel AW program.

See Merchant Venturers response above, reply #202, for the current situation.

[BAforever]

If Eastern can not make it work with a 29 seater what economic sense would it be for an operator with a 50 seater on the Brussels route:\

It would be commercial suicide, because I am sure they would not survive on BAForever's family contribution to the route:eek:

Air Wales (despite the questionable management) regularly flew 30+ pax to BRU.............Eastern did not advertise their presence and fares were utterly daft................there is and always will be demand for CWL-BRU

aero ;)


Quote:
there is and always will be demand for CWL-BRU


Have to agree with that. BA ran the route for yonks with the J41, and latterly the 145, and got a healthy return. Good mix of business fares (up to £500 return in Club) and leisure fares (£99 was possible). Eastern's error seems to have been (a) little advertising and (b) assuming that everyone who used to pay £500 would come back. SNBA at BRS has had many converts since BA pulled out of CWL, and they even give BA Miles...

Eastern should have made this one work. It needs something like a J41. Air Wales made some decent progress on the route with the ATR42, but it is a tad big.
Wellington Bomber how did you come to this conclusion.(As show above)
BA did run the service for yonks. The main reasons it failed were high fare and no advertisment.

BA

[Wellington Bomber]

So why are they not still running the service then:\

You have answered the question yourselves!

BA did not make enough money it
Air Wales had good loads, but still made no money

If i had a butchers shop and gave away free sausages, I would have a full butchers. Having good loads does not necessarily mean making money and that is what counts at then end of the day.

[seewl]

Get real guys
Eastern are subsidsed by the Welsh Assembly.
They dont have to sell the route to make money to BRU.
Their attempts to fill the plane at huge expense have obviously fallen foul of someone.
After all, the freeby champagne and everthing else is suppose to remain a secret.!!

[aeroconejo]

Air Wales were actually making a good return on Brussels (2nd time around) as they were on Newcastle which was going to increase to3x daily. Unfortunately other factors saw the end of scheduled ops.

A great shame

[TwinAisle]

BA did not make enough money

On BRU they did. The issue was that BA's overheads were so high that when they decided to terminate their less profitable services from CWL, the BRU route couldn't carry the fixed costs. That doesn't mean that BRU was a bad route - this is a volume game.

Re Air Wales - Aeroconejo is quite correct; it was no where near as simple as it may have appeared. As I mentioned, 6G were making some useful progress on developing that route, but there are always other reasons than just the financial performance of an individual route when an airline decides to cease operations....

As for your comments, seewl, please be aware that in that post you have accused an airline and the Assembly of something illegal. I am sure you meant that the Assembly's Route Development Fund was used, correctly, to reduce certain charges on the CWL-BRU route.... I am sure you would wish to clarify your post, otherwise I would suggest you email Danny or one of the mods with the evidence to back up your statement.

[xtypeman]

Twinaisle is correct, however there where other polictics for cancelling. Dont forget who the actual operator of the route was not BA but a franchise then owned by BMI. The BRU was one of several routes cancelled strange that a Lowcost took most of the routes on!!!!!

[cym]

Anyone know when they plan to announce the next batch of routes for Summ07 and what they're liable to be?

[jetstream7]

Twinaisle is correct, however there where other polictics for cancelling. Dont forget who the actual operator of the route was not BA but a franchise then owned by BMI. The BRU was one of several routes cancelled strange that a Lowcost took most of the routes on!!!!!

I'd disagree with your view about the 'other politics'.

At the point that BA withdrew from Cardiff, there was no longer any link between CitiExpress (who were the franchise operators) and BMI.

CitiExpress was a wholely owned BA subsiduary, formed after the acquisition of BRAL / Manx by BA.

The announcement of the arrival of bmiBaby, and routes to be served from CWL preceded the withdrawal of BA from CWL, so you can't link the two actions, and suggest that it was part of a plan by BMI.

[flower]

It was many months after British Regional withdrew that BMI Baby announced it intended to base themselves at Cardiff.

I do remember being told that BA only needed about 6 people on the Brussels flight to make it viable, however times have very much changed since then as this was before the advent of Bristol taking off in the way in which it has, also companies are less prepared and able to pay the larger sums of money that Eastern are charging when they could send their workers from Bristol after an hours drive for a considerably lower fare.

I thought I had written a post about Eastern and my lack of faith in such a company succeeding from Cardiff, but it was probably just myself in a conversation with Aeroconejo or Twin Aisle and other ex Air Wales types.
Brussels is such a short flight that a champagne service is not needed but lower fares are.

[MonkeyB]

Am I alone in wondering why CWL aren't pushing BMI Regional to establish a complementary opperation to Baby. There's plenty of scope for business routes routes such as Brussels and Paris. Plus they could tap into the RDF on Frankfurt, Munich, Milan etc

MB

[flower]

MonkeyB

The rumour mill has it that Baby intend setting up more business type routes, Paris should be restarting soon and lets hope more interesting routes such as Munich follow. With a fourth aircraft there should be scope

[MonkeyB]

flower

Bearing in mind that they didn't run for very long, loads were pretty encouraging on both Munich and Bergarmo during Baby's first summer at Cardiff - although I don't know what the yeilds were like! Smaller jets with timings to suit business as well as leisure passengers may be a better fit.

[BAforever]

The rumour mill has it that Baby intend setting up more business type routes, Paris should be restarting soon and lets hope more interesting routes such as Munich follow. With a fourth aircraft there should be scope

Flower i agree with you about munich, but not so paris 2xdaily on a 733 is just to large and business need more than 2xdaily. I think that bmi Regional with an erj-145 would be perfect 3/4x daily on that flight.:ok:

[TwinAisle]

Guys - can I suggest that those of you who think that baby will restart MUC or start any other German route out of just about anywhere do a quick search on bmi's ownership structure??

I've said this before - but clearly I need to say it again. CWL-CDG and CWL-BRU are NOT low cost routes. Someone like Eastern would have been ideal, Arann is possible, but BACON would be better, or as BAForever says, a bmi service (although I can't even begin to imagine a bmi base at CWL). You do need a way smaller aircraft than a 737 to build these sort of routes, since adding what is in effect 600 seats a day between the two (you have to be double daily) would be impossible to shift at anything approaching a decent yield.

Please go and read the following:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Airline-Business-Rigas-Doganis/dp/0415346142/sr=1-5/qid=1159469857/ref=sr_1_5/202-3079088-6546221?ie=UTF8&s=books

It would save soooo many daft postings on this thread! :ok: And before Hawk or her mates has a paddy, no, I am not the author, and no, I don't get any commission. I just agree with his sentiments....

[BAforever]

I've said this before - but clearly I need to say it again. CWL-CDG and CWL-BRU are NOT low cost routes. Someone like Eastern would have been ideal, Arann is possible, but BACON would be better, or as BAForever says, a bmi service (although I can't even begin to imagine a bmi base at CWL). You do need a way smaller aircraft than a 737 to build these sort of routes, since adding what is in effect 600 seats a day between the two (you have to be double daily) would be impossible to shift at anything approaching a decent yield.



Exactly, they are not LoCo routes. And unless theres a radical change that will always be the same. But, its also about time we accept that BACON will not come back to CWL for some time at least. Arann, cant see it myself due to fleet shortages but when the new atr72s come possibly. bmi I still think is the most likley with a regional ERJ-145 service. Probably the most ideal plane for a 3/4xdaily to CDG(200 seats a day) and 2xdaily to BRU(100 seats a day).Far within reachable goals for CDG i think and not so sure with BRU but not impossible. (but these routes will not go baby):ok:

BA

[TwinAisle]

Just for the record, bmibaby started CWL ops in October 2002 (hard though it may be to believe that).

BA announced the closure of their Cardiff base - including the CDG and BRU services - on 17 December 2002. All flights ended within weeks of that date.

bmibaby launched CWL-CDG in Summer 2003.

Google is your friend.....

[BAforever]

Just for the record, bmibaby started CWL ops in October 2002 (hard though it may be to believe that).



:eek: Wow, it is hard to believe that its been all that time.

[MerchantVenturer]

BRU seems to be an especially difficult route to break into as the market from/to the UK is shrinking in pax number terms.

I have looked at 2001 when CWL still had a year-round service to BRU. It was operated on behalf of BA using I believe J 41s. There were two rotations on weekdays and one on Sundays.

In that year 20,534 pax were carried on the route giving an average load throughout the year of around 18. If Eastern could have carried this sort of load on their Jetstreams I suspect they would have been very satisfied.

In 2001 the UK-Brussels routes carried 2.44 million pax but the figure has dropped each year since then, and by 2005 had dropped to around 1.52 million pax. As an example, in 2001 BRS carried 93,000 on its BRU route but by 2005 this had dropped to 63,000 (albeit there were more rotations on the same equipment in 2001).

In February this year Air Wales tried the route again, having tested the water a year or two before for a relatively short period. The RDF may have encouraged them to try again but their only full month on the route before going out of business was March in which they carried 1159 pax, an average load of around 12, assuming all timetabled sectors were flown (I have an idea they weren’t so the actual average load would have been a little higher).

Eastern’s short tenure on the route this summer reveals 509 using the route in June and 492 in July, an average load of 6 or 7.

All this seems to confirm the argument that BRU is primarily a business route (from anywhere in the UK) where loads will not be high. One would think that Eastern would be the airline that might have made the route work.

[TwinAisle]

I keep saying this as well....

LOAD IS MEANINGLESS DATA WITHOUT CORRESPONDING YIELD DATA!!

Since no-one except the carrier has any idea of their yield, making statements like "the load looked good" is meaningless.

Sorry, but it is frustrating.

I work in this field. It pays my bills. I could fill an aircraft between almost any two points on the planet. I could give tickets away, or in extremis, pay people to fly on them. The trick is, can you drive YIELD!!!!

I refer again to Rigas's book, and others who write about the good stuff like passenger price elasticity and behaviour...

[flower]

Twin Aisle,

The German routes are definitely up for discussion, be it BMI Baby or someone else who knows but with a 4th Aircraft there is no reason not to consider further business routes and yes the rumour mill definitely has German routes on it.
A bit confusing this BMI business and when they started, I certainly do not remember BA and BMI Baby operating at the same time, wish I could find the archive news you refer too but am so certain they were not there at the same time. I cleared the first baby flight for take off it was October , days the clocks changed but am sure BA had cleared off by then. It was the day all the aircraft got damaged at the flying club, I think a certain Skipper had gone from CWFC by then

[MerchantVenturer]

flower

The BA CWL-BRU was operating in November and December 2002 (after bmibaby had started its routes from CWL).

The BRU carried 1734 pax in Nov and 1398 in Dec.

In January 2003 it carried only 111 and did not operate after that which tends to support TwinAisle's information that the final BA routes ceased within a few of weeks of 17 December 2002.

[flower]

Some BA routes were pulled almost as soon as they announced they were leaving CWL and I think the Brussels and possibly the Paris routes ran a little longer.
It shows how memory can trip you up but I do not remember them being there at the same time, it could be by the time Baby started most of BAs flights had gone and we were left with just the J41 and not the Embraers.
What I remember was how we had to do a major PR job when Baby visited us when they were choosing a new Base as we already knew by then that BA were pulling out and we needed a LoCo.

[MerchantVenturer]

flower

I do have the same memory as you that some of the BA routes went earlier in 2002 but that BRU and probably CDG lingered on to the end of the year.

It will be very interesting to see what routes the fourth baby 737 brings. Has the extra aircraft definitely been confirmed?

I see there is also speculation about an extra Thomsonfly 737 next summer as well.

If these aircraft do commence operations the airport should see well over 2 million pax next year. Even if they don't the 2 million should be comfortably exceeded.

August took the running 12-month total to 1,913,967 (up 7.6% on the figure a year ago), with 256,000 passing through last month (up 16.2% on August 2005).

From comments you have made in the past I believe you will thoroughly enjoy the extra work.:ok:

[TwinAisle]

To settle this once and for all:

bmibaby starts CWL ops - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2366103.stm

BA withdraws from CWL - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2582763.stm

bmibaby announces CDG - Edited for advertisement. Follow TwinAisle's suggestion below.

As I said, Google is your friend, and soooo much more reliable than memory...


Whoops - apologies, forgot the rule on airline press releases! ;)

[BAforever]

It will be very interesting to see what routes the fourth baby 737 brings. Has the extra aircraft definitely been confirmed?



No, it hasnt but it does seem quite likley. (but who knows with bmibaby)

[babymax]

who cares if bmi bring in 4th aircraft what we need is a good standard airline at cardiff rather than a low cost mickey mouse airline all crew are fed up with the long days and no support from management,bring back airwales - and excel why are you not coming back next year?:{

[BaconSarnie]

rather than a low cost mickey mouse airline all crew are fed up with the long days and no support from management:{

And how is that different from how Air Wales used to be?

[AvianceUK]

Baby website....

News Section....

'Release date : 2006-09-13'
'bmibaby announces fleet expansion plans for Summer 2007'

Just to clarify what baby have said - though could change their minds!!!!

[AvianceUK]

Just for the record, bmibaby started CWL ops in October 2002 (hard though it may be to believe that).

BA announced the closure of their Cardiff base - including the CDG and BRU services - on 17 December 2002. All flights ended within weeks of that date.



Just for the record, the announcement of the closure of the BA Cardiff base was many months before December 17th.....

I was involved in the redundancy and re-hiring at the time... And the news was public knowledge...... CDG and BRU did run longer as the J-41s went first, then the EMB-145s....

GOOGLE ain't pefect!!!!

According to the BBC, it was late MAY that Aviance announced closeure of it's Cardiff base due to BA pulling out, only to be 'saved' by BABY stepping in and choosing Aviance late in negotiations, ready for it's winter operation to commence....

---Just felt it needed to be said---:ok:

Cheers

AvUk

[TwinAisle]

Just for the record, the announcement of the closure of the BA Cardiff base was many months before December 17th.....

Not sure that is correct. My sources tell me that BA had announced that they were slimming down their Cardiff operation - not closing the base - during Spring 02, and as a result, Aviance had announced job cuts. A certain low cost operator at CWL announced on 20 September 02 that they were going to use Aviance, and had secured almost 50 jobs and ensured that handling agent, aviance now has a future at the Airport.
Keith Nicholls, Commercial Director for aviance said that he was
...delighted to welcome bmibaby to our operation at Cardiff Airport. Before securing the contract, it was our intention to withdraw operations at Cardiff and close the station, due to a severe downturn in business as a result of our main Customer, British Airways moving a large number of it's routes. This agreement now means that all 47 employees' jobs have been protected, and the future now looks bright, which is wonderful news for all concerned.
Note the expression - moving a large number of its routes - not closing the base, which was announced in the December. BA killed off Cardiff in more than one cut.....

[flower]

AvianceUKs post is how I almost remember it myself but memories can be fooled. I do remember so well how it was imperative for us to woo Baby when they visited as we knew BA were leaving, that of course doesn't tie in with the news articles but then news articles are not renowned for their accuracy.

Anyhow that is the past and the future is more important.

Thomson does seem to be working well from an outsiders point of view but then again the fares are reasonable, I'm not saying we Welsh are cheapskates but we are more of a low cost type airport and with Bristol only an hours drive away offering many more cheap flights then the only way we can compete is to offer the same. Time and time again people say I would have liked to have flown from Cardiff but I got a cheaper flight from Bristol, that to me shows how an upmarket service is not what is required from CWL, but a greater range of flights at low fares. Business is tight this way and nobody in the accounts department will be able to justify the huge fares to Brussels when a cheaper alternative is just a short drive from here.

[TwinAisle]

but then news articles are not renowned for their accuracy

More accurate than the average PPRUNE posting, I would wager.... :rolleyes:

Be careful of assuming that Thomsonfly from CWL is a low cost airline. The Cardiff operation relies on selling off rump seats after the charter requirements have been met, so their pricing model tells us very little about the dynamics of the Cardiff market. Also, when you see their 767 departing for PMI, don't assume that aboard are 300 happy punters who would have flown baby/easyJet/A N Other Jet - most of them have bought Tui packages, and had no choice of carrier.

an upmarket service is not what is required from CWL

A rather broad generalisation. BA ran Club Europe services from CWL to CDG and BRU, at about £500 return (J class), and the many times I flew it they had very promising loads in Club, which had a min fare (D class) of about £375....

Cardiff does need more routes, and many of those routes need to be operated by low fares airlines. However, there is certainly room for premium carriers at Cardiff as well, provided that they are advertised properly and have sensible fare structures, and are run on the right size aircraft. IMHO, Eastern only got the last of these three things correct.