Jetstar/AO threads Merged

[UNOME]

It appears that the approx 50 EK boys offered positions in Jetstar (at somewhat above current employee contracts) have made a joint counter offer to EK.

Serving their required notice (along with their offer of employment with Jetstar), they have offered to remain on Gilligans Is. "IF" EK agrees to;

A) Open Sydney (and other) bases.

B) Increase income by 20%

C) Plus some other stuff

Well done boys!:D

[tifters]

You mean to tell me that a group of pilots got together and formed a united front to better their causes.....surely you are kidding!!!!!
Two possible outcomes here..
1. Management sees the writing on the wall and coffs up, risking setting a precedent.
2. Management stands stubornly firm so as not to set precedent.
Good luck guys if it is true, if it is, give me a call, i will buy you all beers when you are ing Hong Kong!!!!!!:ok:

[Aussie]

If its true,

im impressed.

Aussie

[The Bunglerat]

Wouldn't that be a turn of events indeed!

As already previously stated, good on 'em - if true. However, would EK management really bend to such requests/demands? I ask a genuine question here, as it seems from my limited understanding of the industry (in its present incarnation at least), that the animosity between professional pilots and airline management has never been worse.

I also find it interesting that such action by the EK pilots sends a pretty clear message that they don't hold their future employers in very high regard either. Because they'll just as happily drop Jet* like a hot potato and stay with EK - if their demands are met - as they would drop EK like a hot potato and run off to Jet*. Then again, seeing as management seem to hold all pilots in the same contempt these days, I guess that just makes us all the same as each other in the end... Everyone's looking after No. 1 - pilots and management alike.


By the way, I'm for the pilots - and not against the management. Call me an idealist and a dreamer, but I still live in hope of one day seeing pilots and management work with each other, rather than against each other, for the common good of their respective airlines. Oh, but if wishing only made it so...

[fistfokker]

I would be very surprised if the conditions are above current employee conditions.

An agreement is certified and cannot be changed without a vote of the pilots employed by Jetstar. Also any command positions are limited to 3 years maximum and then back to whatever seniority will get.

Anyone telling you anything different is full of s**t.

[Keg]

So you haven't heard of an AWA fist?

[UNOME]

Not what they are telling me Fist..... what I have seen in B&W.:=

BTW all TREs and TRIs will NOT be subject to seniority, hence demotion to F/O in less than 3yrs does not apply to the EK guys (or others being presently employed in the same role.)

The EK guys have this in writing.

That crew room is gonna be a hoot!:rolleyes:

[4PW's]

Now this is funny. I'm sorry, but you Jetstar guys are about to be disappointed. Though not as disappointed as the Qantas folks, who you deliberately set out to undermine. I guess what goes around comes around. Stiff cheese!

[Ron & Edna Johns]

Yup, I said it back in April in this thread:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2532887#post2532887

.... that perhaps we are going to see some individual contracts to entice Aussies o/s - in places such as Emirates - back to Aust and JQ. And yes, fistfokker, it is completely legal in JWH's brave new world. The Certified Agreement means nothing - if just one single employee wishes to work on an AWA (individual agreement) alongside 99 other employees that work under a Certified/Collective Agreement, he can. Pure and simple. And he can do so in complete confidentiality too. That's the L.A.W.

The Jetstar guys voted to change their EBA to emcompass wide-body aircraft for minimal extra bucks. They don't seem to actually want to do the flying though. The only way it seems JQ can get guys is from overseas, and on what is sounding like significantly better T&C's.

Is it starting to sink into the Jetstar guys yet as to how industrially naive they have been? If only they had worked with AIPA on this, instead of insisting on a confidentiality agreement (yes, it was the JQ guys who wanted the confidentiality agreement, not Qantas!). Perhaps then we collectively could have worked out a way to provide existing A330 pilot labour to JQI at the productive level that Dixon and Joyce want. Ah, but no....... the JPC wanted to provide the "genuine alternative source of pilot labour to the Qantas Group". And they simply didn't want to hear how badly they were were underselling themself on the world market.

So now we have about 60 surplus A330 pilots in mainline. A dodgy CA in Jetstar that most of them don't actually seem to fully utilise and AWA's about to mix in there too. Chuck in the wet-lease concept up at CNS, don't even remind me about JitConnict, and what a bloody shambles the Qantas "Group" is becoming by the day...... :ugh:

Well, with EK needing to lift its establishment from 1400 pilots to 2400 pilots over 4 years - so that's not even accounting for attrition - that's where the demand is and if it's true that the EK blokes have asked EK for a better deal then they may get it. Supply and demand - yes, JWH's brave new world again! Indeed, it is common talk around QF flight-decks/bars that if EK upp-ed their package by about 20% then QF guys would be seriously looking at going. Junior F/O's I'm flying with are consistently thinking and saying that, and even I (as a junior-ish S/H Capt) would be thinking seriously about it, especially given we are going nowhere fast with the S/H EBA.... more :ugh: 'ing......

[Chimbu chuckles]

Info I have from the sandpit is not even 50 guys were interviewed let alone offered jobs. Apparently more like 30.

Maybe 20 offered jobs.

From what I hear several dozen odd current Ansettstar pilots have bid long haul so not quite accurate to suggest they voted up the EBA and then were not interested in the flying.

My source in the pit suggests EK would ignore their 'offer' if it is in fact true..with possible exception of a TRE/TRI or two, but even then unlikely...despite the fact that a huge % of the encumbant EK pilots are over 900 hrs in 365 days and Rostering is running on adrenaline only. Nothing new there, anyone ever seen airline management react differently?

As far as AWAs are concerned well anything is possible in our brave new world...but would it really be a good idea given the likely reaction of the encumbants? They can all nick off to the Sandpit too...I think EK would be happy to expedite their applications.

Entertaining as **** innit?:E:ok:

[Elroy Jettson]

There actually is a glimer of hope in all of this. AWAs were designed to shaft workers, not to improve conditions! Clearly if they have been offered it is because pornstar cant find people to play with their joystick on the conditions accepted by the jesters. (No one should be too surprised). So management are facing the reality of "maket forces" and the very real prospect of having expensive jets sitting around uncrewed at the end of the year? What happened to the 700 applications they were crowing about a few months back? Either they have the most stringent application process on earth, which none of the 700 could pass, or it was all BS! (Or both).

I think we have found rock bottom for terms and conditions. Management offering AWAs above the T & Cs JPC accepted seems to suggest I am right. If only it were true that the AWAs do exist in this case, not yet convinced...

Jesters, if you believe management are going to demote these Guys after 3 years, you have another thing coming. That clause is written into YOUR contract, not theirs. You can bet your bottom dollar it in no way appears on their shinny new AWA contracts! So it will only be enforced on the JPC guys who voted it in. These Guys will not be covered by your stinking deal, only you will!

[ur2]

The actual figure was a total of 10 A330 Check and Trainers from EK and Dragon were offered positions. (still waiting to see how many take up the jobs).
True it has been hard getting interest with such a low salary base.
But it is true that at the end of 3yrs they will revert to seniority dictated positions.
As to hold a Check position they have to rate a command.
My advise is if you are getting a better deal, get it in wrighting.

[Bazzamundi]

What is the pay rate for check and trainers? Significantly above the base rate? Is the amount for check and training written into the agreement?

[Ejector]

Side tracking just a bit for a moment, the folks on the A320’s for J* that re going to go onto the A330’s, did they have to pay for cost of endorsement? :confused:

[OhForSure]

Why can't EK see the light???

Improve T&C's to attract more pilots and improve current morale. Thus, in employing more pilots the rostering problem is relieved (to an extent) and more pilots may actually STAY at the company. It seems too easy.

The all important question I have is:

Is it cheaper to keep losing these pilots and having to re-train other new-hires (not to mention uncrewed a/c), or is it more cost effective to just treat the pilots right in the first place? I'm not talking mega-bucks or 400 hrs a year, but just fair treatment. Is there something wrong with me, or is it just EK management?!?!?!?

[UNOME]

A lot of experts floating around here.....

The TREs and TRIs were well prepared for the arrival of the Jetstar recruitment team. They collectively placed the deal the QF 330 Standards dept currently enjoy (before Jetstar's wet little nose) and said "where do I sign?" :D Oh, and while we are at it, they are management positions so clause X states that the position is 3yr renewable as Captain!

Given that Jetstar has no other choice.....you experts can decide what actually happened.

p.s. Do you really believe that in under 3yrs some snotty nosed kid whose daddy forked out $37k for an endorsement last week, is going to displace a current TRE?? HHHmmm...on second thoughts....

[tifters]

Oh4sure...the problem is, is that no management at the moment want to start this bidding war off!! Once Ek start then others will have to follow suit. CX will have to offer better Aus package than the one going at the mo, J* will, etc etc etc. It seems that what is logical to us is quite distasteful to management. It is going to happen, that i am sure but by whom and when is the only question!!!
There is no such thing as patriotism anymore in this job!! Management have seen to that over the years. It will be their undoing though as pilots will sell themselves off to the highest bidder and with the eventual shortage of pilots in the middle east/India/China, those bids will be quite a sum. This of course will have a roll on effect with mainstream airlines who will also have to start paying top dollar to keep their pilots!!!
Even if this story of the EK guys is stretched, watch this space as i believe that will be the norm in years to come!!!!!!!!
Bring it on!!!!!!!!

[ur2]

TC's $184k, CC's $194 plus OT. plus 9% super. est about $220k. with avg OT.
No existing J* pilot will have to pay for upgrade to any type.

[Howard Hughes]

Tifters,
What you are saying is indeed correct, I suspect however that at some stage Emirates will have to kick off the bidding war, because with their current orders they are the airline with the most to lose...
Cheers, HH.:ok:
PS: What an interesting thread, possibly the most informative on airline conditions yet!

[Lagrange]

Alan Joyce has promised GD that he will introduce AWAs into JQ.

If JQ International is to fly, and GD made it clear that it must in his speech in CB this week, AJ has no choice but to get (buy) the EK pilots.

He will enter into AWA's with EK lads, and they will be attractive.

AJ has a track record for paying for people he wants. I have been told the recently employed manager, ex Gulf, is earning $70k more than the job is supposed to be graded at! What is good for the goose, has to be good for the gander.

[Bolty McBolt]

I have just had a perouse of the Middle East forum looking for comments on this thread.

All looks like a wind up ??

[longjohn]

Agreed.

My sources tell me there are only 3 from EK.

This appears to be a (very good) wind - up:D

[UNOME]

Well indeed, we all have our expert sources.

I put this to you;

A) Why would Jetstar travel all the way to the beach (mid-summer!!) requiring 100 pilots and leave with just 3 pilots???? Not very plausable.

B) Why would any TRE/ TRI accept anything less than the conditions of a current Qantas 330 TRE/ TRI doing the same job?? Do Jetstar have any alternative? How many current Jetstar management pilots have 330/340 time or any widebody- longhaul command experience?? I can certainly see the CAA saying "Sure, no problem!" :ugh:

C) Why would they accept and not have it in writing (clause X) that they remain as Captain....forever. "Sure, I'm a 55yr old TRE and I am happy to become a junior 320 F/O again on 5k per month" :hmm:

D) These guys haven't accepted the positions, they are only saying to EK that the position is on offer, match it and we will gladly stay. For once, a smart move by a pilot!:D

How would EK feel if 50 pilots left en-masse, during the next 4 weeks?:confused:

No wind up, just the facts.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Wot? They'd be happy to stay at EK if EK matches the offer from Ansettstar?

I very much doubt they went to the sandpit (mid summer-who cares?) for just 3 pilots but how many passed the QF Psyc BS...I hear a few didn't:hmm:

Entertaining as **** innit?:E :ok:

[UNOME]

The psyc tests conducted by Jetstar have a certain nudge, nudge-wink, wink value added......as required. ;)

[OneDotLow]

Any truth to the rumour that the QF60 was crewed by the brothers in blue one day late last week?

Bearing in mind that this is a good 2 weeks prior to the AO/QF changeover, surely this is one for the QF mainline boys to watch out for?! AIPA? Surely this is not kosher...

Any more info...?

[Sheep Guts]

50 EK boys trying to do some muscle bargaining mmmmmmmmmmm reminds me of 49 CX boys doing the same once, outcome didnt end up in their favour.

Emirates must be getting further squeezed now especially with the A380 further delay announced yesterday.


Tough times ahead.

Sheep

[rescue 1]

I'm still confused as to how this new wetlease arrangement will work in practice.

Here we have QF pilots on secondment to a QF Group company undercutting QF pilots flying the same route?

Or will the direct entry Captain clause be invoked, or AWA's introduced?

One to watch...

[Eagleman]

Unconfirmed, but the buzz at the pub tonight..

Apparently a passenger on the BNE-DRW flight last night went "ape" and attempted to open the door in flight. The cabin crew restrained the guy - not sure if cuffs used.

When the dust settled the Cabin Manager informed the Captain who elected to continue to Darwin.

The CC were quite agitated when told by the CM that they were not diverting.

After arrival one of the CC spoke to the Captain who didn't realise the seriousness of the incident, in fact he claimed the CM had not told him the passenger had attempted open the door!!!

If this is true, there would seem to be a lot of questions that need answers.

[blueloo]

Once they had him restrained and assuming he was not causing any more kerfuffle why not continue? He cant open the door anyway! Not unless he can overpower however many square inches of door multiplied by the cabin diff = several tonnes of pressure.....

[Eagleman]

Correct, but was the captain properly informed?

[Scooter Rassmussin]

With the A380 delay EK just bought some extra time dont expect miracles , I love Jetstar and would never go back to the sandpit,:D life is sweet............

[Keg]

Rumours suggest that if we push for the mainline contract for the AO crew that QF will decide that it's all too expensive and close the base and flick the airframes as 'excess'.

Personally, my feeling is that they should be on the LH contract. How hard to push? Always the question where the answer is difficult to judge! :(

[Sonny Hammond]

That sounds similar to the rumour that J* int was to be crewed by a north american crewing company if the impulse boys voted no.

Good old qf propaganda.

[Keg]

Quite possibly Sonny. I'm just passing along the rumour. It's high stakes poker isn't it! :suspect: :}

[bonez]

OneDot - i dont believe that operation was any different to what has been undertaken form time to time in the past. QF crew was not available so an available alternative was put in place that got the job done. what would u have done?

[Capt Claret]

Perhaps DRW was the closest place to divert to?

[No Further Requirements]

Surely the punters would have loved to stop in sunny Tindal! And the refueller there would have been STOKED!

Cheers,

NFR.

[Capt Claret]

BUT, are there any stairs at Tindal? No stairs, no pre flight inspection, no flight.

ps, don't know if the A320 have integral stairs, the 71s didn't/don't.

[toolish]

I have to agree what a fantastic wind up.:D :D :D :D :D
Could respond more to it but I am having far too much fun reading this crap:)
So we will just wait and see:zzz:

[chimbu warrior]

Well if the passenger has made a nuisance of himself, who needs stairs? Just open the door (disarmed of course) give a firm push to the small of his back and remember to say "thank you for flying with Jetstar" :O

[Shitsu_Tonka]

Descend FL140, depressurise and ask him/her to have another go.

[Eagleman]

This event occurred early in the flight. All comments on this thread are relevant, but as a captain, I would be really p1ssed off to be told after landing that the report the CM had given me had been watered down to suit her personal needs. That is, she had to get back to BNE on time to collect her child from the minder. Other FA were told not to go to the cockpit or discuss the matter with the captain. If this information is correct, the level of professionalism of the individual has to be questioned. OR is this how things work in a LCC?

[Capt Claret]

Eagleman

I'd say that the LCC variable is a furphy. People in all walks of life are able to put self interest first, it's not the exlusive province of the LCC.

[Aussie]

I dont think its just LCC, can happen anywhere with any airline...

Aussie

[LTBC]

If they are doing essentially the same work as they were doing previously, why should they be paid any differently? The financial difference has always been considered acceptable due to the cost of living in Cairns, and the opportunity for a faster promotion. The only thing that has changed is the colour of the airframe, the brand of uniform, and the flight number.

They're AIPA members, not a 'threat'.

[Tankengine]

Hi Keg,
"close the base and flick the airframes as 'excess'" is crap from management of the first order. The crews come back to mainline creating a huge excess in Sydney, we require lots of paxing to /fro CNS [remember the 4 week basings?] :ok:
and they REDUCE airframes while the 380 is delayed again??!!:eek:
The worm has turned, it's just that some people don't realise it yet.:D

[Soulman]

Wouldn't you be trying to escape if Magda was cracking onto you? :}

[Danny Crane]

no pre flight inspection, no flight.


Sorry Captain - Jetstar got rid of preflight inspections as part of being low cost - supposedly the captain does them now during the fast turnarounds..........

and Aussie, It was my observation before I quit Jetstar that the level of professionalism amongst the staff was heading WAY South as a reaction to the way that the new management were treating people. Of the Impulse staff, those who could leave did so, and those who have not left yet want to. The newer staff who move in to replace the older ones are mostly very green, and where possible have no prior airline or even aviation experience.

Jetstar have no plans to retain quality staff - just use them and loose them. Now, why was it that this happened on jetstar and not some other airline ?????

[Capn Bloggs]

why was it that this happened on jetstar and not some other airline ?????
The feral wanted to fly Virgin but couldn't afford it! :}

Claret,
No stairs, no pre flight inspection, no flight.

Hop onto the top of the refueller's truck you wus. What about a bit of company spirit and all that?! :{

Danny,
Jetstar got rid of preflight inspections as part of being low cost - supposedly the captain does them now during the fast turnarounds..........
Hundreds of thousands of pilot pre-flights (most by the FO!!) have been done on hi-cap RPT jets by full-service airlines all around Oz for over 30 years. Welcome to the OLD world.

[Erin Brockovich]

Apparently the said passenger in-flight found out what the pilots were getting paid, realising they probably hadn’t eaten or slept in days and went hysterical. :E

[Veruka Salt]

If the AO operation is shut down the airframes won't be in excess.

QF needs all the capacity it can get, particularly with the Dugong being delayed further. Apparently 1 of the classics is running out of hours (due for a D check), the 767 returns to HK from Sept., and there's talk also of the 767 returning to the US west coast.

So any spare airframes will be most welcome!:D

[Keg]

I agree about the excess Tank. You may be right about the 'crap from management' point too. However, I don't agree that basings may be the outcome. QF may just decide that they won't fly those routes any more because they can't turn a dollar on them. We end up going back to the days where we just have a CNS-NRT and CNS-DRW-SIN services. I agree that the airframes are required now more than ever- the rumour I heard was before we knew that the A380 was going to be delayed- and so we may not be in such as dire straits as the rumour implies.

C'mon LTBC, the Cairns operation was set up with a lower cost base to meet the different requirements of the AO flying. These 'different requirements' (all economy, etc) no longer exist. They're QF pilots (albeit seconded) in QF uniforms in QF coloured aircraft. Why shouldn't they expect QF pay and conditions?

The rest is argy-bargy between the association and QF. I'm just providing one of the multitude of different outcomes that can arise.

[SkySista]

Bloggs, you beat me to it. Then again, if said situation had happend and the guys had used the truck to get to the ground to pre-flight, I'm sure some managment nong would then rake them over the coals for it being an OHS risk... which, I guess it is, but in exceptional circumstances...

Besides, I'm sure there's a ladder somewhere at Tindal... if it's good enough for engos it's good enough for a pilot!!! :E

[fistfokker]

What a pathetic topic. Poor old Eagle...when you get some experience and perhaps a job as a real airline captain you may understand that not everything is set in stone the way you seem to think it should be.

[ditzyboy]

Jetstar have no plans to retain quality staff - just use them and loose them.

Too damn right! No more so than in the FA department. I cringe when I think I could still be at Jetstar - if it weren't for our CP agreement. What absolutley hideous people to work for. Horrendous. It makes me sad that many former colleagues are still there anxiously looking for a way out. What they did to the employee base is terrible. Just eat and eat at morale (and people's livelihoods) until there is no more.

:yuk:

[LTBC]

The 'requirements' are the safe and efficient operation of a Boeing 767 to certain destinations. Some of the destinations may change, but suggesting flying an all-economy aircraft somehow affects the way you operate is a bit of a stretch isn't it? The only practical difference is that they now have to wear a hat and tie - the operation itself is unchanged. You'll have a very hard time convincing a court otherwise.

This paves the way of course for lower-cost AO to eventually contractually take over the 767. Now there's a thought...

[Danny Crane]

Ditzy me old mate,

I have seen you posting here for a long time now. Once you were a loyal and enthusiastic Impulse FA, and for a while I saw in your posts that you were trying to hang on to that loyalty after the rot under the new management started, and now I can see that they got to you as much as they got to me. It's sad to see what they did to a place that we all liked working at.

A small and friendly Australian company taken over by nasty mob of empire builders with a business ethos of dispising their passengers as much as they do their staff :{ :{ :{ It's just un-Australian..........

That's history now, and the best thing that I did was leave - I hope you have gone on to greener pastures - I know I did --> retirement !!

[Lagrange]

Fokker, I think you may be very mistaken.

Eagleman is known to me is far more senior and experienced than you have given credit. Perhaps he should come straight out and ask the real question without beating around the bush.

JQ do not have a proper CRM program. Their management is also becoming more "ryanair like" in managing crew. Only last week a young FA was apparently stood down for refusing "act" as CM. The girl had claimed she was not confident enough to accept the added responsibility. From my perspective, her behaviour was very responsible, JQ management saw if differently!

ah the new world

[woodja51]

Quite a lot of negativity but some good info mixed with some dodgey stuff out there.

Having been offered a job as a TRI with Jetstar and coming from EK, I can tell you that the decision to go depends entirely on your own circumstances. Contrary to popular opinion EK pays well (in excess of 20 000AUD per month in my case tax free).
Apart from the usual vagaries of ANY management they are not that bad to work for really (I have 7 years up my sleeve).

Jetstar just provides an opportunity to get home and if you are happy to take the paycut, pay tax and the cost of living in Australia, represents a viable option.

The contract employs us a first officers and specifically talks about return to FO at the end of the three years. However the managment/TRI clause will most certainly be used to effect. And as you guys who seem to know IR stuff - I didnt sign the Jetstar EBA and there are other options.

The numbers who did interviews and offered jobs are more like a total of 30 from EK , offers to maybe 10. Not enough of a drain on EK to make a dent. But I do agree that if EK were to offer remote bases etc they could save themselves around 100 000AUD per pilot a year as they would not have to provide a large component of the EXpat package such as housing, education medical etc etc. But trying to sell that to them generally wont work as the managers who could approve it wont as they cant do the same thing, 'if I have to be in the pit , so do you!' applies.

Cheers all!:O

[Chimbu chuckles]

Very best of luck to you:D :ok:

[SHRAGS]

Woodja,

Can you give us some details of the Jet* AWA for TRE/TRI's.

[Ron & Edna Johns]

Yeah, you have to laugh: the blue bro's are about to become WSW's again. They must HATE that idea!

Just winding you up, boys! :}

[ditzyboy]

Lagrange -
Re. CRM... I cannot speak for pilots but the Impulse/Jetstar CRM program for cabin crew was FAR more thorough than what I have experienced at Qantas. I am not suggesting the QF one is not adequate - just that the CRM programs I attended at VQ/JQ were more intensive. And we always had both pilots AND cabin crew attending the same course.

I left 'The Star' six months ago and things may have changed, ofcourse. Six months at Jetstar is a very long time!

Danny -
I agree. We FAs at Jetstar had a saying... "Have you ever heard of an airline where your colleagues congratulate you for leaving?" We used to laugh at how ecstatic we became when someone said they were quitting and how happy we were for them.

I really miss my colleagues at 'The Star'. No matter how miserable the company made us feel (or how many APS officers and ambulances we had to call for violent pax and drug overdoses) we ALWAYS had a great day.

[dunerider]

I think most of the guys going to Jetstar are guys who have just got their residency, and are perhaps in the process of getting Australian passports. It would appear that most Australians with families have done the figures, and they don't add up as compared to EK, so once again the lifestyle versus career argument presents itself. The single guys are ok with it and some probably will go. I believe the figure is around 10 guys. I assume the TRI/TRE's will get paid more and will have a deal to maintain a command after 3 yrs.
Perhaps Jetstar may increase the package slightly for individuals to attract the numbers they need. As far as the 20k with EK is concerned, that is only true if you live outside of the EK accommodation system and take the allowance. If you are single then the pay is ok, however if you have a family and are exposed to the high inflation your disposable income does not look to flash.Thats why the single guys have all the toys. And good luck to them.
All the best Woodja I'm sure you'll have a great time.:D

[UNOME]

Fist, Bolty and Longjock...still think it's a wind up?? Chimbu had a change of heart! :hmm:

Foreign pilots employed on AWAs at 230k (60-70K above the incumbent Aussie guys) and a no demotion guarantee!! Haven't I seen this movie before??:rolleyes:

Guess who is buying the beers on those long hot "days off" in HNL?? :ok:

[OneDotLow]

LTBC et al...

So lets look to the future for a moment...

2007
AO integrates seamlessly into QF colours and uniforms. No great loss... all the guys are on what they considered fair and equitable conditions right?! A lot of the boys are earning the same, if not more than they would be in mainline... And they are still mainline guys flying mainline aircraft right?!

2008
All of a sudden, JQ Intl comes onto the scene, with their overgenerous marketing budgets from management and just their domestic brothers, make a huge profit (QF A330s transferred over, just like the freebie A320s given to QF as a gift for buying the A380). Thats great they make a profit, as it distracts from the real QF Group finanacial results. Thats right, the sustainable futures program! Yes its sustainable, for those who leave in mid 2008 (formerly 2007)!

2009
Over time this JQI false economy begins to fall apart and it is decided that maybe those aircraft could be better utilised under the QF brand.

AND HERE IS THE CLINCHER...

In years gone by, AO was seamlessly changed over to the QF brand and there were no great problems there... So lets do the same with JQI... What a win!! JQI now wetlease their operation to QF for half (or whatever figure you chose to cook the books with) price. Hey they even chose to have their days off overseas (JQI pilots only have their domestic colleagues to thank for that lot! What a win!)!! Thats ok though, coz all of us are aiming to move onto QF and other airlines around the globe after a bit of time at JQI... Sorry fellas! Its not going to work like that, the whole industry has been brought down by the actions of a few. No longer are you able to aim for a higher paying job elsewhere, because the standard has been set by none other than yourselves!

And now back to the present....

What can we do about it? Well, unfortunately those JQ boys in their infinite brainwashing have already set our whole industry back a long way... but now is the time we must stand up and secure our conditions for the future! Stop undercutting eachother and protect what has been fought for long and hard! If you want that job with a major, DONT UNDERCUT THE JOB YOU ARE AFTER!

This post is not intended to 'get up' any particular group of pilots, but for goodness sakes look at what is happening to our industry!! We are being undercut by no one but ourselves!!!!!

:ugh:

[UNOME]

Fistf..ker

Just reviewing your enlightening posts here, there and everywhere. :rolleyes:

Let me take a wild guess……

Not so long ago you started out life as the illegitimate child of a Belgian prostitute who had webbed feet. Your Daddy purchased a licence for you and was prone to utterances such as…”I invented the question mark!”

Now days you’re a young Red Hot, hugely experienced Jetstar Capt jock?

‘Cause buddy…it shows. :ok:

UNOME you couldn't be further from the truth of the matter. It might pay to be a little more circumspect about deciding, based on a very small number of Pprune posts, just what link someone holds in the aviation food chain.:ok:

Woomera

[Contract Con]

Woodja51 hit the nail on the head.

Anyone who thinks 30 blokes quitting EK to go to J* will sway EK management is living in fairy land.

Much the same as J* Management spruking that they have hundreds of crew ready to quit Emirates and Dragon to fly any widebody as the company may operate for S.F.A!!

Check what Air Luxor are paying to get the going rate for A330 inAus. That is the REAL going rate for Widebody Contract pay in this part of the world. $11US Base plus plus

Cheers,

Con:ok:

[haughtney1]

CON has summed it up perfectly, JET* continue to dream if they think the floodgates will open and their crewing issues will be solved:ok:

I got offered an interview with them as a Kiwi with a JAA ATPL (was interested originally in the NZCH base) but when I found out the actual conditions..the hoops to jump through, and the "fluid" management practices, I told them no thanks.
A couple of EK mates of mine were offered interviews and turned them down as well:ok:

[fistfokker]

Keg, Yes I have heard of AWA's. However the current certified agreement is written as applying to "all pilots employed by Jetstar", therefore to employ some pilots under AWA's would be in breach of the agreement. Not a position management want to take at this point, I wouldn't think. Management pilots are outside the agreement and are employed under seperate management contracts. The Company and the Pilot Council reached agreement on conditions that would permit the employment of enough people to get the job done.

UNOME, at this point in time what you call TRI/TRE are still employed under the agreement and as such are subject to the three year command deal. The agreement states that one must have the seniority for a command to hold a TRI/TRE position. Therefore technically at the end of the tree year deal such persons would revert to whatever position there seniority would by them. It is however anticipated that the positions available would be sufficient(as a result of 12 wide body aircraft minimum) that nobody would be adversely affected. It is possible that the Company may have promised a permanent left seat position because of that or if the Company chose to keep them on in the left seat this would also be possible under the agreement by the payment of bypass pay to any pilots adveresely affected with reference to seniority. The Company does not like paying bypass.

The figure of $230K sounds like a phurphy because it is significantly more than even management pilots get paid. But if the Company is willing to pay that to secure the sevices of some key personnell, great, that is supply and demand. I doubt there would be a crew room problem. However I think I would need some tangible evidence before I could change my view regarding the wind up.

For all those reading to much into Jet* sending a team to EK , this was done simply for the convenience of the applicants on file, rather than 30 or 50 having to find rhere way to Oz in dribs and drabs. There were certainly enough applicants to justify this.

Jet* is not deperate for crew. It certainly needs pilots but the vast majority will come on throught the F.O. ranks on both the narrowbody and widebody aircraft.

[fistfokker]

Lagrange, my response to Eagle... was simply meant to reflect that too big a deal was being made of the "unconfirmed buzz from the pub". To suggest that any of Jet* CM,s would deliberately withhold crucial information for personal convenience is silly in the extreme. However it is possible that information transfer loss, differences in "what I thought I said" and "what you think you heard" are far more likely an explanation.
I have attended many CRM course with a number of providers and the Jet* course is one of the best. It combines tech crew and cabin crew on the same course. The workers have a very strong CRM commitment
The case you mention regarding the young Cabin Crew member is very disappointing. I have not heard about it. I wonder if they asked any of the others. It is worth pursuing. It would not surprise too many pilots to discover that Management does not always practise what it preaches, whatever the airline. There will always be issues that require resolving.
UNOME, far from the mark my dear chap. My recent renewed interest in this forum is twofold. I have recently obtained broadband (previously not available in my area) which makes the site more accessible and the constant attacks on my airline and my colleagues, often made from ignorance, coupled with perspective that I have received from seeing worse places to work.

[fistfokker]

OneDot, why do you think JQ guys have their days off overseas?

It is guaranteed in the JQ agreement that a minimum of 9 or 10 days off per month will be at home base. Any days off required for CAO purposes or whatever, overseas, are additional to those. This is a commonly held incorrect interpretation of the agreement. The rest of your attack on JQ is equally poorly informed. There is no JQI or JQ domestic. There is but one JQ that operates both a narrowbody and a widebody fleet. Both fleets can and do operate internationally.

It would be interesting if all the JQ knockers found out some real facts about the organisation before savagely attacking it and its employees.

[RFN]

Did the interviews also include sitting the QF psych test? If not, somewhat premature to interview someone for the job, don't you think?

[Watchdog]

fistfokker,
i'd be doing some maths before I would place money on continuing the LH seat position after 3 years - there are a heck of a lot of guys in the seniority list already. Also, what happens when the temporary A330s are replaced by the 787s - A330 TRI/TREs won't be required anymore? :confused:

[Toluene Diisocyanate]

Ditzyboy said: We FAs at Jetstar had a saying... "Have you ever heard of an airline where your colleagues congratulate you for leaving?" We used to laugh at how ecstatic we became when someone said they were quitting and how happy we were for them.Ironically this is the scene playing out in ALL Qantas subsidiary airlines with both tech and cabin crews.:hmm:
If nothing else, plenty of farewell parties to go to for us:} Atmosphere @ these shindigs is one of getting paroled from Alcatraz:D

Still, the (mis)management of said company's care nought about retention rates.:yuk:

[Normasars]

T.D

You beat me to it.

Some of the stories being told here by our JQ comrades have been happening to the rest of us in other parts of QF for much much much longer than that.

Welcome to the poisoned chalice if QF. Doesn't matter which part ur in it's all the same.

"Floggings will continue until morale improves":mad:

[UNOME]

Woomera

Well it was after all a light hearted dig.....and not knowing the chap personally (as you do) I can only base my comments on what he has posted.

However, noted, and good to see you stick up for a mate. :ok:

BTW Whatever happened to anonymity?? I sure hope the Jetstar management are not privy to the personal information of Pprunesters, especially those who take the odd shot!

[speeeedy]

ff,

It is you that has got it wrong regarding days off.

It is correct to say that days off OS will be in addition to the minimum days off at home, but what you have missed is the true definition of what these minimums are. You can't use assumption (you know whose mother that is), use the actual words.

Read this clause from that wonderous document that you are proud to defend:

25.1.3 “You will be rostered free of duty at your Home Base for minimum of 9 designated days off in 6 roster periods and 10 rostered days off in 6 roster periods. The minimum number of days off in a roster period for a pilot will be notified to the pilot no later than before the end of the preceding period.”


This says that the minimum is 9 or 10 days off over 6 roster periods, that’s a long time, plenty of scope for days off OS.

If you are still having trouble interpreting plain English, lets do something simple:

A roster period is a month, so lets replace the word “roster periods” with the word “months”. So how does this read:

You will be rostered free of duty at your Home Base for minimum of 9 designated days off in 6 Months and 10 rostered days off in 6 Months.

I'm afraid you have been sold a pup, and this is only one of 12 very “questionable” clauses (all coincidentally can be interpreted in the companies favor) in that dirty little document.

As you have correctly pointed out this rewritten agreement covers narrow body as well, no one is safe!

[UNOME]

Considered the possibility that they are not" employed by Jetstar", only working for Jetstar? The AWAs may have an interesting contractor name printed at the top! :eek:

[OneDotLow]

Speedy,
you beat me to it...

as for you ff,
your attention to detail needs a little focus. i hope you didnt sign off on the agreement by just listening to Romeo Hotel and his cronies... if you did, then you have been spun by the doctor! if i were a betting man, id put $50 on that bloke having a job in management within 2 years of the introduction of JQI. He did the same "smooth the boys over for us" job that QF's illustrious leader did!

seen it before... im just trying not to see it again!

:ugh:

[Jetsbest]

If you believe your interpretation more accurately reflects the 'intent' of the award, and if you believe that J*management also holds that interpretation, then it should be no big deal to have them insert the words 'each of' and a few others into said clause... just to help everyone's peace of mind.

Try to get it changed, easily and without fuss (ie without having to buy it in your next EBA negotiations!), to say;
25.1.3 “You will be rostered free of duty at your Home Base for minimum of 9 designated days off in each of 6 roster periods and 10 rostered days off in each of 6 roster periods in each calendar year. The minimum number of days off in a roster period for a pilot will be notified to the pilot no later than before the end of the preceding period.”
The reaction to, and progress of such a suggestion will let you know what was really intended by this clause.

If anyone baulks at such a simple request, then you'll know that other motives underly what many view to be a deliberately ambiguous choice of words. I actually really do wish you well if you're prepared to ask the question. And is it such an unreasonable clarification to seek if everyone else has misunderstood?

[Chimbu chuckles]

Yeah that would make sense:rolleyes:

Why would Ansettstar

1/. Pay a contract crew company $230K to supply people who are then payed some lower amount.?

2/. Pay a contract crew company some higher amount out of which said company pays the crew member $230K?

When Ansettstar could negotiate themselves.

When a company like Parc or Rishworth supply crew they do the sourcing not the airline...why would Ansettstar send a team to DXB to interview pilots on behalf of such a company and THEN pay them a monthy fee to supply such crew?

I mean think about it for a minute.:ugh:

watchdog FF is making that point too.

[UNOME]

OMG:ugh: What stops QF forming its own contract company???

"GD&AJ AWA LTD",will do nicely........:hmm: It is the law now right?

Jetstar may not be desperate for crew, just experienced crew.

[Chimbu chuckles]

touche...hadn't thought of that:ok:

When you said 'the AWAs may have an interesting contractor name at the top' I assumed you meant one of the well known contract companies like Parc etc.

I still think it's bollocks BTW.:ok:

[fistfokker]

Watchdog, The 787 will still need checkies. Anyone on the A330 will go onto the 787 with the company providing the necessary training. More 787's than A330's means more pilots and more checkies. I doubt that the number of
787's will stop at 12.

[fistfokker]

Slag off all you like gents. The clause in question was in the original agreement, nothing to do with the gentleman that you are quite erroneously putting ****e on. Neither the company nor the pilots have any difficulty interpreting the clause. No shortage of experienced people wanting to join Jet* either.

[OneDotLow]

ff,

At this stage, and please correct me if im wrong, but jetstar domestic rarely do overnights, if at all... therefore they spend every night in their home base.

However, once JQI start flying to overseas destinations with lower frequency, ie 2-3 times per week, this will require crews to slip. Do you think the company would take advantage of any such a clause at that point in time?

:ugh:

[Watchdog]

FF,
yep agree the 787 will need checkers - but would J* bother paying for the
A330 to 787 conversions after their 3 year contracts are up? If it were the case, then are the current A320 checkers being transferred onto the 330?

Why not then employ 777 experienced checkies who will do a short CCQ onto the 787? These guys would have relevant fleet experience? :uhoh:

[Woomera]

No UNOME that was not a light hearted dig and, FF, who is known to me personally, did not take it as a light hearted dig...so you can stop peddling your bike in reverse.

Annonimity is taken seriously here...no one knows who you are...but some of us know each other and, in the case of FF and I, have worked together in previous airlines.

There is a LOT of ill informed rubbish being posted about Jetstar and it's staff.

The way certain people chose to read certain clauses in the Jetstar Certified Agreement is simply breathtaking in it's panic ridden, adolescent stupidity.

It is long past time you lot calmed down and realised that the world does not owe you a living and no one has any 'right' to anything...be it a job flying jets, a comfortable retirement or CX A scale wages and low tax.

Expat Ozzies chosing to come home to fly for Jetstar will do so on the basis of their individual circumstances and will accept, or not, what is on offer.

That is no ones elses business and they are NOT STEALING JOBS from pilots within the available pool in Australia.

They are not prostituting themselves or driving the profession into the toilet...they are merely getting on with their lives and careers as they see fit.

I have merged all the threads because irrespective of the original topic you all end up in the same place.

NOW PLAY NICE!!

Woomera

[Wirraway]

Tues "Sydney Morning Herald"

Pilot ire as outsiders apply for Jetstar jobs
Email Print Normal font Large font Scott Rochfort
June 20, 2006

JETSTAR has further enraged long-haul pilots working for its full-service parent, Qantas, after announcing it had received 1000 "job applications" from pilots based in Asia and the Middle East keen to fly its long-haul services.

After holding "roadshow" job presentations in Asia and the Middle East, Jetstar chief executive Alan Joyce said many of the applicants were "experienced on [Airbus] 330s and 320s and working for major airlines around the world".

Just five months away from the low-cost airline's first long-haul flight, Mr Joyce said many of the expressions of interest were from pilots working for overseas carriers such as Emirates and Singapore Airlines, many of them expatriate Australians.

But with Jetstar already bypassing Qantas pilots to crew its long-haul planes, other unions are growing edgy over whether the airline plans to bypass their members as well.

After leaving the Australian International Pilots Association in the cold in recent wage negotiations, other unions are increasingly uneasy over Jetstar International's intentions given the airline has already stated it wants to have a 40 per cent lower cost base than Qantas.

The Flight Attendants Association says it is yet to hear from Jetstar.

Australian Services Union assistant national secretary Linda White said she was still waiting to hear whether the airline's long-haul arm planned to use the parts of the Howard Government's IR laws that would allow it to write its own Australian Workplace Agreements - without union or worker input.

"Either they haven't got [any plans] or they are not prepared to come clean," she said.

Ms White also warned the airline's plans to send call-centre jobs to Asia could create a backlash from Jetstar customers and the general public.

Her comments came after the Jetstar boss confirmed the airline was putting out a tender for a joint call centre serving Jetstar and the 44.5 per cent Qantas-owned, Singapore-based, Jetstar Asia.

Mr Joyce also confirmed Jetstar had held talks over possible code-share arrangements with Asian airlines.

"We are talking to a number of different carriers," he said, while declining to confirm speculation talks had already been held with Vietnam Airlines.

Mr Joyce disputed that code-share deals would result in Jetstar forming cosy deals with other carriers and undermining its pledge to offer the cheapest fares in the market.

"Our intention down the line is to have a very close relationship with people in Asia that could allow us to give customers greater choice," he said.

=========================================

[rickwithasilentp]

Woomera.

I take your point on JQ Int except it is using QF aircraft (A330's gifted to the operation for free) and flying QF routes.

QF mainline pilots careers have been destroyed by this move.

I find it unbelievable that (according to your view of things) we should be happy about this and say "oh well its OK for guys who by their own choice left Aust to fly elsewhere and because they now decide they want to come home you QF boys should just move over and let them undermine your careers, and if any of you winge about it then we will ban / censor you because the JQ Int TRE's / TRI's are our mates"

My livelyhood and future career prospects has been ruined by FF and his mates. The company writes threating letters to my home address, fleet management threaten us personally, and we are being told a massive pack of lies from senior management about fuel costs (fully recovered by the surcharge if any of you bother to do the maths) and you expect us to just 'roll over' and apologise for being a little 'hot under the collar' about what s going on.

Bizarre.

[Ken Nuff]

Alan Joyce and Geoff Dixon are working together to destroy Qantas and recreate it under the Jetstar banner.

They will succeed because we are all full of hot air and p1ss.

When are we going to unite to protect our jobs?

[Pete Conrad]

Dirty Harry once used the phrase that his police badge was a 6 star supository, I wonder could we apply the same to Jokestar? An Orange tail supository?

[speeeedy]

rickwithasilentp, exceptionally well said :D :D :D :D :D

Woomera, thanks for your unbiased moderating. Your mate FF and others will be proudly flying our ACTUAL aeroplanes at a bargain rate with no conditions, its MY job he is taking and you want me to say thanks??? Extraordinary.

BTW since you seem to be part of the debate now rather than just the moderator, would you care to explain how else to read the particular clause regarding days off???

This is kind of like the spotlight debate where employees traded in conditions for virtually no pay rise, except FF & Co have traded in conditions worth 40% and still took a 40% pay cut! A few spotlight employees may be uneducated and unskilled but they are obviously considerably smarter than certain pilots, because in the end they realised that they could just say NO!

[golow]

The 1000 pilots from overseas is rubbish. They just said that to keep the troops under control. No they use the sim for that!
They are having trouble crewing Ansett International, I mean Jetstar International and the blue shirts from the failed airline want to bring in full time command positions. No 3 years command then back to FO.
Ex QantaslinK 717 pilots get ready to bend over
Really they should have got Qantas A330 drivers to do the job but too many HQ people want to build an empire.

[BuzzBox]

It is long past time you lot calmed down and realised that the world does not owe you a living and no one has any 'right' to anything...be it a job flying jets, a comfortable retirement or CX A scale wages and low tax.

Absolutely!

If the silly, vitriolic comments in this thread are any indication of what it's like to fly in the cockpit of an Australian airliner these days, I'm glad I made the move overseas all those years ago.

It's about time some of you climbed down from your ivory towers and had a damn good reality check...

[Thumbs up]

RICK and SPEEDY.

Your preceived INTENT of Woomeras' post included;

its MY job he is taking and you want me to say thanks??? ,

or

and you expect us to just 'roll over' and apologise for being a little 'hot under the collar' about what s going on.



It Is very typical for you lot to slag off on the sidelines,we've heard alot of it since the Jetstar inception.
Times are are moving and changes are been made but you lot still have your head buried in the sand, surfacing only to cry little boy blue.

I know you all believe you are untouchable and you and AIPA will still be here in a hundred years,but so did Ansett in 2000 and so did the broard base domestic Pilot body of 1989, which AIPA conveniently came out unscathed.

The writing on the wall is now writen in very large letters.So stop you bleeding heart stories and get on with doing something meaningful about it.

For the record I wish you all (Qantas)the best.

[Jimothy]

Thumbs Up - Thanks for the advice.
What exactly is it you would do (meaningful)?

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

I too take exception to this post by the moderator(s).

Some of us, with a long term perspective, have worked it out already; some plainly haven't.

The aim of J* is an end to collective bargaining in this industry. Now a lot of you are going to say "So what?" to that statement and perhaps even "good riddance" from a few of the usual suspects.

If we cannot collectively bargain then any certainty in this industry goes out the window. Even for the QF haters in this forum, there is a need to understand that the current QF Certified Agreement, the thing that Oldmeadow and his mates are actively working to destroy, represents the last australian aviation career path that is stable, with protections for the pilot workforce and adequate remuneration.

If we go down the path of the AWA then we lose ALL of that. The job becomes a dutch auction.

In five years we, and those who follow us could be:

1. Paying 40,000 dollars for the priviledge of flying any new version of our employers aeroplanes.
2. Getting promotion on the basis of "Are you willing to sign this contract?"
3. Losing many years of invested time in a company as seniority becomes irrelevant.
4. Be forced to go offshore chasing the last worthwhile remuneration standards for this industry.

To say that those who are returning to J* are just doing the best for themselves and their families is only telling half of the story. The rest of the book will be completed in a few years time. How is it going to end? The complete disintegration of what was once a worthwhile career, or the story of how some people with a vested interest in maintaining a worthwhile endeavour rose above their petty squabbles, unified and resisted the threat?

This is not an ad for AIPA. This is a plea for unity. Look past the next few months and see the overall Oldmeadow game plan. AIPA, AFAP, the JPC and the ordinary pilots represented by those organisations need to become partners in the defence of our profession. Anything less will be suicidal.

[Animalclub]

It is long past time you lot calmed down and realised that the world does not owe you a living and no one has any 'right' to anything...be it a job flying jets, a comfortable retirement or CX A scale wages and low tax.
Woomera

At last - someone who nearly understands "rights". You do have a "right" to some things... like breathing.

Sorry Woomera I am NOT trying to P in your pocket!!

[Chimbu chuckles]

I take your point on JQ Int except it is using QF aircraft (A330's gifted to the operation for free) and flying QF routes.


Now I am no more a fan of Darth etc than you guys but surely when QF own the A330s and JQ they can allocate resources as they see fit?

My experience is that a career is never a static thing....you can do the numbers on when your command might happen or other such intangibles but the real world always seems to intervene inconveniantly. People here are claiming their careers have been adversely affected by JQ's pilots. At some points in the past promotion has been very, VERY slow at QF and at others has been quick...it's just the luck of the draw...whose fault was it last time?

I would suggest more careers at VB have been adversely effected than at QF but you don't see threads started by VB pilots slagging off against JQ. Lashing out at JQ pilots because they are there plays Darth's game if you believe the conspiracy theorists.

Instead I tend to think QF cannot be protected indefinately and sooner or later the Govt will allow SQ and EK a larger chunk of the pie. How many jobs would be lost if the Govt allowed unfettered access to the Oz market tomorrow? You guys may think the QF product forward of the bullet proof door is world beating (it isn't-most other airlines manage just as well) but I got bad news for you about the product behind the door...and that is the one the pax notice.

It is widely held that there is a looming skills shortage in aviation...the upper end anyway. Freeing up 'professional mobility' may be the best thing that has happened in a long time.

Pilots may start to leave QF for opportunities elsewhere instead of sitting there until the death....the more adventurous ones anyway. Those with less ability to move will benefit by quicker promotion than they may have experienced without 50 pilots above them on the juniority list heading off to India, or where ever, for big money contracts.

It seems to me we are the first to tout 'market forces' when they appear to be swinging in our favour and the first to slag off any and everyone when they are not.

Market forces appear to be swinging in our favour in the biggest way in 40 years...why not sit back and try and enjoy the ride...because you're going for the ride whether you like it or not.

Who knows what opportunities the ride may bring?

I was chatting about the IR laws in Oz to a Kiwi workmate a while back. The same stuff was introduced in NZ 10+ years ago when he was a union rep in his small company. At the time he decried them as the end of the world as we know it but conceded now that they were a positive force and people are better off generally. Just a few days ago was chatting about it to another expat Ozmate. His view was that it will be better in the long run...some people will be worse off but they will be the brain dead portion of the population...anyone willing to get off their arse will be better off. My view has been that Australia is going down the route of the US model which is bad. My view has changed as I now believe with Australia's much smaller population and different political system Australia will avoid the worst excesses of the US model of society while still allocating resources appropriately.

If QF is transformed from it's current state...that of an airline where you join for life and wait 15-20 years for a command...to one where pilots come and go like most airlines but commands come in 5-10 years will that be better for most people?

If the command pay is a little lower but you're getting it twice as long you might find you're better off.

QF's system works against the pilots as well as for. It's good for the lazy ones who just want to sit back and take what seniority buys. It also traps pilots because they have been brainwashed into believing the seniorty list is all powerful.

Imagine what it could be like if significant numbers of the Captains and SFOs were leaving for big $ contracts overseas with quicker promotion for the SFOs and big top ups for superannuation on 0 tax pay packets. Sooner or later QF would be exposed to pilot 'market forces' instead of shielded from them by a static pilot body trapped by seniority.

It could be all good.

[BuzzBox]

Well said Chimbu Chuckles, I couldn't agree more.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

BuzzBox, how exactly does a seniority system do that?

[Lagrange]

Alan Joyce will soon introduce AWA's at JQ. He has committed to GD and Ian Oldmeadow to do this.

Freehills have been preparing the documentation for sometime.

Seniority is dead.

AIPA has been left in the starting blocks, no, back at the hotel!!!!

[B A Lert]

What really is the purpose of a seniority system other than to protect the time-servers who put in little but take a lot? When almost all other jobs/rofessions/occupations in the industrial world are filled and based on merit, many pilot groups rigidly stick to the steam-age system of seniority and the dead wood that goes with it - just do the job and rise to the top largely by inertia whereupon, like a smug and sated cat, take all of the cream and bugger those lower in the food chain.

Time to face facts gentlemen, and of course ladies, and realise that promotion by merit is the only way to go in the 21st century. Pilots embraced modern technology without blinking but why are they so averse to the adoption and application of modern management practices? Guys, it is so simple. Really it is. :ok:

[Junkersjet]

Pardon my ignorance.

What has AIPA got to do with seniority or AWA's at jetstar?

Jetstar is represented by the AFAP, no?

JJ.

[Chimbu chuckles]

I don't want to head off down the seniority/merit side track but neither system protects weak sisters. In both systems they find their level of mediocrity...it might happen faster in a merit based system but it happens irrespective.

Australian pilots need to realise that QF is just the best job in Australia. If you take a wider international view it is just another flying job.

You can earn QF 744 pay flying jets overseas on 35 days on/31 days off tours.

The 'QF is he best job ever bar none' mantra is good for the personal gratification of the senior few and good for the management to keep all the rest in line and therfore a stable work force that can be 'managed' but it doesn't make it fact.

The only way the much vaunted 'market forces' will truly work in our favour is via truly mobile labour.

When 200 guys resign from across the ranks at QF in a year (year after year), heading elsewhere to take up other flying opportunities, on top of the usual retirements etc you will begin to see market forces at play.

'Better opportunities' can include a relatively junior FO leaving QF, joining jetstar and getting a command 10 years quicker than he would at QF mainline. His command pay may be a little lower but his career earnings go up. He then has the opportunity to either stay at Jetstar or 3-5 years later head off with a bunch of quality command experience (that he'd still be 5-7 years away from starting at mainline) and sell that experience to the highest bidder overseas.

If enough pilots don't come back from overseas to join QF, JQ or VB (at whatever level from DEC down) because the pay is crap or whatever, and enough pilots at the bottom end are not willing to pay for type ratings because they can go to various international operations that bond rather than charge, you will see 'pay to play' stop in Oz too...and pay and conditions go up to attract talent.

That is starting to happen now...QF Regionals and NJS tried to charge for 717/Bae146/Dash 8 type ratings and the market said shove it. Sunnies, NJS and Eastern pilots have had in the past, and continue to enjoy, success gaining employement in CX and KA...where they are bonded rather than charged up front.

Australia is a miniscule part of the industry when looked at even on a regional (greater asia) basis. Asia, and the ME, is booming from one end to the other...it wouldn't take long to see 'market forces' come in to play if Australian based jet pilots decided to become truly professionally mobile.

That is market forces...not a bunch of whining perochial Australian pilots comparing their lot with other pilots in different markets and insisting they are underpaid by 'world standards' and under attack by all and sundry....while at the same time not prepared to do the ONLY thing that has any chance of changing their situation...vote with their feet.

[BuzzBox]

Sunnies, NJS and Eastern pilots have had in the past, and continue to enjoy, success gaining employement in CX and KA...where they are bonded rather than charged up front.


Actually, they're not bonded either! Nevertheless, your comments are spot on. Perhaps some of the dinosaurs should take note...

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Chimbu, your logic is flawed. A QF FO generally has to take a pay cut to get a Jetstar command. Not only that, but any further pay rise for a larger type has been quashed by J* pilots agreeing to fly any widebody for less than what a QF FO makes.

You market rationalists sound great until it affects you. PAF, promotion on merit sounds fine until your promotion gets taken by someone who moves in the "right" circles and pisses in the right pockets. Don't be naive enough to think that wouldn't happen. Seniority doesn't guarantee anything except a chance for a promotion when your number comes up. The rest is up to your own ability.

Part of the problem is that Australia generally is a nice place to live. I don't want to have to uproot my family because market rationalists, aided and abetted by pilots desperate to also come to Australia, turn a blind eye to the moral dimension of what they are doing.

What are they doing? Let me reiterate it once more. QF senior management and Ian Oldmeadow are actively trying to destroy the only decent airline pilot position left in this part of the world. They are being helped to do this by the very people who aspire to a similar position, but just don't have it RIGHT NOW.

Once that has been achieved, they will turn their attention to the dupes who helped them achieve it. J* guys, do not think for a second that once that aim has been achieved, that you will be left alone.

Be aware that QF senior management and Ian Oldmeadow have similar plans for you.

Now it is up to you how you deal with this information, but don't say that you weren't warned.

[Watchdog]

...it seems to me it's all a bit too late for you guys down under :hmm:

[Chimbu chuckles]

TCoB

If that ends up being the case....and I don't think QF FOs are paid that much...then that, now ex, FO takes his command experience to the highest bidder...sooner or later market forces will dictate increased remuneration if there are not enough bums on seats. If they are not prepared to be geographically mobile then they accept the T&Cs where they are...and preferably shut up.

Yes one downside to the merit system is brown nosers getting ahead quicker...but it's rarer to see incompetent brown nosers get to far...but it does happen...so no system is perfect, not even life.

I will make it as plain as I can....In my view I don't think there will be the option to stand around gnashing teeth and moaning about pilots in other companies....well you can if you like but you will be the final loser.

Market forces are not influenced by people who sit and moan!

We see a LOT of drivel spouted about market forces rescueing our professional slide...how will that work if no one moves jobs?

[fistfokker]

TCob, I am having trouble understanding the suggestions that J* is the vehicle for AWA's. We have a Certified Agreement, while admittedly not as good as the QF one. To suggest that J* could have AWA's impose and QF not seems a little misguided.

You are quite correct in pointing out that management will constantly try to reduce conditons, as time goes by. I have no doubt of that.

It is naive however to suggest that a group of pilots, that has little chance of ever obtaining employment with QF should so "No, I will not work in Australia for any less than a QF pilot would" knowing that their alternative is nothing. What would you do in the same circumstances?

[UNOME]

Woomera

My dig was indeed “intended” as light-hearted, (are you Freud or Jung and know otherwise also, what part of the Austin Powers dialogue upset the two of you??)
It however, did have a point, i.e. to take the sting out of your friend Fist f..ker’s posts. Observation of his subsequent posts indicates that he has taken note.

I do not envy your role as moderator however, your recent outbursts and actions have me (and others) more than concerned.

You state that our anonymity is in tact. However, after one your self confessed close Jetstar mates (swings by for a dozen beers and has a cry on your shoulder about some Pprunester having a dig at him perhaps), you once again morph into the caped crusader of Jetstar City. I certainly hope you do not moderate from home.

If it is not obvious to you that your destruction of this thread, your premature closing of many other excellent past related threads and your immediate defense of your Jetstar mates, is not bias or even abuse of your role as moderator, then it is to those of us with the balls to speak up.

As you can see from my posts I am not an opponent of Jetstar, (I possibly have more mates in there than you) but I am very interested in the changing face of Australian aviation/ IR laws/ AWAs etc, etc and obviously I am not alone.

If this reply lasts long enough to be read, I will say my goodbye (obviously I will be banned) and hope things improve for others with similar such interests. :ok:

Why is it obvious that you will be banned? I didn't sanction you for having a go at a fellow pilot, merely gave you a headsup. It matters not what you think, only how others perceive your post.

You are entirely welcome to perceive my intervention in any way you see fit..I see it a differently and, short of being sanctioned by my fellow moderators, which hasn't happened yet, my way wins. Your opinion is as valid as anyone else's here...attack another ppruner and you don't get to air your opinion any more.

It's very simple.

Woomera

[Watchdog]

FistF,

It is naive however to suggest that a group of pilots, that has little chance of ever obtaining employment with QF should so "No, I will not work in Australia for any less than a QF pilot would" knowing that their alternative is nothing. What would you do in the same circumstances?

Yes perhaps this was a valid case for the VQ guys getting the initial Jetstar gig ("or else we will go greenfield"), but why accept the pathetic deal for Jetstar International (widebody) ops? :confused:

[slamer.]

It is said "seniority only means something when you have it"
reading the above posts it's obvious most contributors..... dont!

Many here like to quote " the free market ".... if you dont like seniority, then dont join or aspire to join a company that promotes by it.... ...problem solved for everyone.

[TineeTim]

TCOB,
I admire your attitude but I reckon your argument is fatally flawed.
1) The idea that a group of employees (us) can band together in order to keep wages artificially high is based in the 19th century. Whether we like it or not the global workplace has arrived in aviation and Dixon et al are quite happy to exploit that.
2) As you said, Australia is a nice place to live. Management know this and I think they will expoit that as well. 'Want to live in an above-average country, you have to accept below average wages. If you won't, there are plenty who will!' We are all going to have to place a $ value on what it's worth to live here. Along those lines look at the uproar caused, by Captains and F/Os, at the thought that they might have to do a blank line once a year or so. These are the same guys who are going to threaten to take up the expat life, in a non-seniority airline, in order to negotiate higher wages?
All that aside we're not 'rooned.' I don't think we will have to accept below average wages to live here- but management will try that on- bet on it. We just need to accept some facts and embrace some of the changes. The Company can't replace us, whether they want to or not. We have to bargain smartly and with an eye on reality. The idea that we'll all just stick together and the problem will go away should have been abandoned years ago.

[OhForSure]

I'll pay that wee one!

As long as there are plenty of pilots out there in oz, there will be people willing to take a jet job at low renumeration. As far as most will be concerned, that shiny new jet is a nicer plane, flying to nicer places, and all the while they will be getting more money, working for better people than is the case in GA.

This, of course is a generalisation, but it is valid nonetheless. There is no GA in Asia or the Middle East, therefore there are no experienced GA pilots to move into the airlines in these areas, and they must be sourced from other regions.

Young Aussie pilots are in abundance (at this point in time) and they'll take anything they can get. This industry isn't CHANGING, it has CHANGED. The situation won't improve at Aussie airlines until the situation improves in GA, or until overseas carriers start taking low-time Aussie GA pilots onboard. Regardless, the airlines understand that a pilot shortage is on the way, so they are taking advantage of the current over-supply before it's too late.

[Transition Layer]

Re: Woomera's post

It's all very clear now why so many anti-Jetstar threads in the past have been closed. Disgusting.

[OneDotLow]

TL,

I concur! If a moderator wishes to express his or her own opinion, fair enough, but do it under a different alias, and without the powers to forcibly change the course of a thread.

Aside from that, a moderator should be there to make sure that Pprune doesnt get sued and that individuals names are not dragged through the mud more than what would be expected on a rumour network...

Disgusting!

:ugh:

[Pete Conrad]

TL, I agree, it's OK for J* guys to slag off at mainline and stir the pot, but aint OK for the return volley.

Political correctness is a cork in the ass of progress.

[OneDotLow]

It is long past time you lot calmed down and realised that the world does not owe you a living and no one has any 'right' to anything...be it a job flying jets, a comfortable retirement or CX A scale wages and low tax.
Woomera

well maybe if "we" (generalisation of all pilots in australia) strived to maintain what we had instead of racing to the bottom we wouldn't be having this argument.

Don't cut down people with low tax, CX A Scalers, QF, Emirates boys, people with a comfortable retirement or people who fly jets, purely because you 'perceive' that they have something you don't. In the olden days if we wanted something we strived to get it! ... Not cut those "tall poppys" with 'it' down to our own level!

:ugh:

[Chimbu chuckles]

I have been involved with pprune, under one guise or another, since pretty much the beginning and I don't think I have ever seen a thread locked or a poster banned for what I perceived as biassed or unreasonable reasons.

The QF pilots seem to have forgotten how they came to be the best paid pilots in Australia...Industrial Bloodshed.

The QF pilots of my fathers generation, all LONG retired, drew the line in the sand and backed it up with resolve.

Now QF pilots expect everyone else to draw the line in the sand to protect their conditions.

It just doesn't work that way...as the CX pilots found when they tried to institute a recruitment ban to force CX to reinstate the 49ers while at the same time accepting promotions into the vacancies that resulted from those sackings.

So QF pilots have at it....have you the balls of your forefathers?

[Iakklat]

Chimbu with all due respect they certainly do not and this has been proven time and time again.

[rickwithasilentp]

Iakklat

If we have the cojones or not may well soon be tested given the imminent rejection of the shorthaul EBA.

Regardless, the key difference between here and 1966 is that workchoices has ensured that the company can do what it wants when it wants.

I have just registered with p!rep.0rg Prior to doing so I emailed the mods to see if they were jetstar biased also.

[Casper]

Sydney Morning Herald - 22 June 2006

…………..

Mr Gregg said he had “no idea” about speculation that Qantas’s full-service operations may soon lease aircraft and crews from its low-cost Jetstar subsidiary.

There is speculation the airline may lease Boeing 787s from Jetstar when the new jets are delivered from 2008, in an attempt to drive down labour costs.

“Realistically Qantas will do what it needs to do to continue to operate,” Mr Gregg said. “Whether or not Jetstar provides wet-leasing capacity to Qantas, I think that would be some time away.”

……………………

[rammel]

Gregg is probably telling the truth for once. Some time away is 2008.

[fistfokker]

UNOME, please don't retire hurt. I was not upset by your humerous post, infact I really did find it amusing and as I believe it was intended. You are correct, I did have a look at myself and analysed my previous posts and have modified my view on a number of things as a result of your dig. Well done. I wasn't aware that I knew a Woomera. Now I suppose I could work out which of my friends it is but I probably won't. Nice to have a friend who will leap to your defence tho.

Watchdog, Jet* is a much bigger group than the pilots that accepted the original gig in order to have a job. The vote on the widebody would have been influnced to a very large extent by a number of ex-Ansett Captains that wished to have permanant commands, as well as younger people who wished to fly wide-body international but don't wish to work for QF(maybe they could or couldn't anyhow) and a bunch of F.O's that want a command. We have a number of pilots that have resigned from QF to join us. It is not as simple as "well we got the original start, lets reject this so that QF/Other pilots in the region won't be pressured." Jet* pilot body is not a unionised workforce, in fact a number of people here have reason to believe they have been disadvantaged in the past by unionisation.

Until all pilots in Oz work together again there will be a continual downward trend. The AIPA and the AFAP can't agree on how to get together in order to protect all pilots. AIPA apparently want to assist only the pilots employed under the QF banner. They don't appear to care about NJS, Virgin, REX, an a myriad of other pilots who will constantly be willing to take up any offers available. The stated aim of AIPA was to curtail the growth of Jet*, understandable but not likely to attract Jet* pilots to join AIPA to fight for terms and conditions.

If AIPA and AFAP are able to get together and agree on a way forward then pilots will be able to participate in that common goal.

[rickwithasilentp]

FF.

Were starting a new list, similar to Alex Pattersons,

and we have very long memories

To call for unity is complete crap. QF pilots hve been willing and able to help but have never been meaningfully asked. A vague hint was dropped under the pres who is now the CP. Figure that one out how it didnt work.

AIPA has continously offered to help the Jetstar pilots. They have refused because its easier to undercut and its more satisifying for people like you to see blokes such as myself and my peers lose their houses and lifestyles.

Its spite pure and simple.

Unbelivable that you have the gall to try and justify your position here on a public forum.

Go on ban me woomera, it wont change how any QF mainline pilots feel about you and your mates like FF

OK...7 days enough?

Woomera:mad:

[speeeedy]

FF a seemingly reasonded post but there is still that anti AIPA sentiment.

The ogre that is AIPA in you're mind needs to be considered.

If AIPA wins the court case regarding the JI A330 flying you will find that nothing will change regarding WHO crews it, but the award (cash + conditions) will be markedly better. That is how this law is applied, it is not about who does what, but about the instrument (award etc) under which it is done.

Not a bad outcome for people who by and large are not members.

AIPA, QF pilots and various individuals here are not you're enemy, even if we are a bit p&**%d off by what you guys have done. Nothing AIPA is doing is designed to prevent JI as such.

It may well be you that will get a very LARGE win out of this.

The only win your "enemies" will get is a useful precedent which may or may not help out later....you should be hoping "we" win for "your" sake.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Can I ask that we keep this civil?

Speedy's tell's it as it is. Watch the developments in the AIPA Federal court case. There will be evidence given there that will clearly delineate who the bad guys are here and what their plans are for all of us; and it won't be AIPA.

Jetstar guys, I say this again. Once you have been used to destroy the QF LH and SH Certified Agreements, they will go to work on you using exactly the same tactics and probably using the other players mentioned.

You have no scope clause. You have no way to stop QF farming off your flying to a wet leasing company specially made for that purpose. Don't think it won't happen. The only way for all of us to avoid being played like second hand violins is to UNIFY.

Are you getting that message?

[Woomera]

rick is having a break...anyone else start threatening other posters in any way shape or form, let alone with a scab listing, will be banned Forever.

This thread is now locked. Feel free to start another but the instant it heads down the path of vitriolic slagging it will be 'click' and bannings.

Your enemy is not one another.:ugh:

Woomera