Jetstar/AO threads Merged
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Jetstar/AO threads Merged
It appears that the approx 50 EK boys offered positions in Jetstar (at somewhat above current employee contracts) have made a joint counter offer to EK.
Serving their required notice (along with their offer of employment with Jetstar), they have offered to remain on Gilligans Is. "IF" EK agrees to;
A) Open Sydney (and other) bases.
B) Increase income by 20%
C) Plus some other stuff
Well done boys!
Serving their required notice (along with their offer of employment with Jetstar), they have offered to remain on Gilligans Is. "IF" EK agrees to;
A) Open Sydney (and other) bases.
B) Increase income by 20%
C) Plus some other stuff
Well done boys!
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what tha!!!
You mean to tell me that a group of pilots got together and formed a united front to better their causes.....surely you are kidding!!!!!
Two possible outcomes here..
1. Management sees the writing on the wall and coffs up, risking setting a precedent.
2. Management stands stubornly firm so as not to set precedent.
Good luck guys if it is true, if it is, give me a call, i will buy you all beers when you are ing Hong Kong!!!!!!
Two possible outcomes here..
1. Management sees the writing on the wall and coffs up, risking setting a precedent.
2. Management stands stubornly firm so as not to set precedent.
Good luck guys if it is true, if it is, give me a call, i will buy you all beers when you are ing Hong Kong!!!!!!
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Wouldn't that be a turn of events indeed!
As already previously stated, good on 'em - if true. However, would EK management really bend to such requests/demands? I ask a genuine question here, as it seems from my limited understanding of the industry (in its present incarnation at least), that the animosity between professional pilots and airline management has never been worse.
I also find it interesting that such action by the EK pilots sends a pretty clear message that they don't hold their future employers in very high regard either. Because they'll just as happily drop Jet* like a hot potato and stay with EK - if their demands are met - as they would drop EK like a hot potato and run off to Jet*. Then again, seeing as management seem to hold all pilots in the same contempt these days, I guess that just makes us all the same as each other in the end... Everyone's looking after No. 1 - pilots and management alike.
By the way, I'm for the pilots - and not against the management. Call me an idealist and a dreamer, but I still live in hope of one day seeing pilots and management work with each other, rather than against each other, for the common good of their respective airlines. Oh, but if wishing only made it so...
As already previously stated, good on 'em - if true. However, would EK management really bend to such requests/demands? I ask a genuine question here, as it seems from my limited understanding of the industry (in its present incarnation at least), that the animosity between professional pilots and airline management has never been worse.
I also find it interesting that such action by the EK pilots sends a pretty clear message that they don't hold their future employers in very high regard either. Because they'll just as happily drop Jet* like a hot potato and stay with EK - if their demands are met - as they would drop EK like a hot potato and run off to Jet*. Then again, seeing as management seem to hold all pilots in the same contempt these days, I guess that just makes us all the same as each other in the end... Everyone's looking after No. 1 - pilots and management alike.
By the way, I'm for the pilots - and not against the management. Call me an idealist and a dreamer, but I still live in hope of one day seeing pilots and management work with each other, rather than against each other, for the common good of their respective airlines. Oh, but if wishing only made it so...
Last edited by The Bunglerat; 14th Jun 2006 at 10:27.
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I would be very surprised if the conditions are above current employee conditions.
An agreement is certified and cannot be changed without a vote of the pilots employed by Jetstar. Also any command positions are limited to 3 years maximum and then back to whatever seniority will get.
Anyone telling you anything different is full of s**t.
An agreement is certified and cannot be changed without a vote of the pilots employed by Jetstar. Also any command positions are limited to 3 years maximum and then back to whatever seniority will get.
Anyone telling you anything different is full of s**t.
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Not what they are telling me Fist..... what I have seen in B&W.
BTW all TREs and TRIs will NOT be subject to seniority, hence demotion to F/O in less than 3yrs does not apply to the EK guys (or others being presently employed in the same role.)
The EK guys have this in writing.
That crew room is gonna be a hoot!
BTW all TREs and TRIs will NOT be subject to seniority, hence demotion to F/O in less than 3yrs does not apply to the EK guys (or others being presently employed in the same role.)
The EK guys have this in writing.
That crew room is gonna be a hoot!
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Now this is funny. I'm sorry, but you Jetstar guys are about to be disappointed. Though not as disappointed as the Qantas folks, who you deliberately set out to undermine. I guess what goes around comes around. Stiff cheese!
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Yup, I said it back in April in this thread:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...87#post2532887
.... that perhaps we are going to see some individual contracts to entice Aussies o/s - in places such as Emirates - back to Aust and JQ. And yes, fistfokker, it is completely legal in JWH's brave new world. The Certified Agreement means nothing - if just one single employee wishes to work on an AWA (individual agreement) alongside 99 other employees that work under a Certified/Collective Agreement, he can. Pure and simple. And he can do so in complete confidentiality too. That's the L.A.W.
The Jetstar guys voted to change their EBA to emcompass wide-body aircraft for minimal extra bucks. They don't seem to actually want to do the flying though. The only way it seems JQ can get guys is from overseas, and on what is sounding like significantly better T&C's.
Is it starting to sink into the Jetstar guys yet as to how industrially naive they have been? If only they had worked with AIPA on this, instead of insisting on a confidentiality agreement (yes, it was the JQ guys who wanted the confidentiality agreement, not Qantas!). Perhaps then we collectively could have worked out a way to provide existing A330 pilot labour to JQI at the productive level that Dixon and Joyce want. Ah, but no....... the JPC wanted to provide the "genuine alternative source of pilot labour to the Qantas Group". And they simply didn't want to hear how badly they were were underselling themself on the world market.
So now we have about 60 surplus A330 pilots in mainline. A dodgy CA in Jetstar that most of them don't actually seem to fully utilise and AWA's about to mix in there too. Chuck in the wet-lease concept up at CNS, don't even remind me about JitConnict, and what a bloody shambles the Qantas "Group" is becoming by the day......
Well, with EK needing to lift its establishment from 1400 pilots to 2400 pilots over 4 years - so that's not even accounting for attrition - that's where the demand is and if it's true that the EK blokes have asked EK for a better deal then they may get it. Supply and demand - yes, JWH's brave new world again! Indeed, it is common talk around QF flight-decks/bars that if EK upp-ed their package by about 20% then QF guys would be seriously looking at going. Junior F/O's I'm flying with are consistently thinking and saying that, and even I (as a junior-ish S/H Capt) would be thinking seriously about it, especially given we are going nowhere fast with the S/H EBA.... more 'ing......
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...87#post2532887
.... that perhaps we are going to see some individual contracts to entice Aussies o/s - in places such as Emirates - back to Aust and JQ. And yes, fistfokker, it is completely legal in JWH's brave new world. The Certified Agreement means nothing - if just one single employee wishes to work on an AWA (individual agreement) alongside 99 other employees that work under a Certified/Collective Agreement, he can. Pure and simple. And he can do so in complete confidentiality too. That's the L.A.W.
The Jetstar guys voted to change their EBA to emcompass wide-body aircraft for minimal extra bucks. They don't seem to actually want to do the flying though. The only way it seems JQ can get guys is from overseas, and on what is sounding like significantly better T&C's.
Is it starting to sink into the Jetstar guys yet as to how industrially naive they have been? If only they had worked with AIPA on this, instead of insisting on a confidentiality agreement (yes, it was the JQ guys who wanted the confidentiality agreement, not Qantas!). Perhaps then we collectively could have worked out a way to provide existing A330 pilot labour to JQI at the productive level that Dixon and Joyce want. Ah, but no....... the JPC wanted to provide the "genuine alternative source of pilot labour to the Qantas Group". And they simply didn't want to hear how badly they were were underselling themself on the world market.
So now we have about 60 surplus A330 pilots in mainline. A dodgy CA in Jetstar that most of them don't actually seem to fully utilise and AWA's about to mix in there too. Chuck in the wet-lease concept up at CNS, don't even remind me about JitConnict, and what a bloody shambles the Qantas "Group" is becoming by the day......
Well, with EK needing to lift its establishment from 1400 pilots to 2400 pilots over 4 years - so that's not even accounting for attrition - that's where the demand is and if it's true that the EK blokes have asked EK for a better deal then they may get it. Supply and demand - yes, JWH's brave new world again! Indeed, it is common talk around QF flight-decks/bars that if EK upp-ed their package by about 20% then QF guys would be seriously looking at going. Junior F/O's I'm flying with are consistently thinking and saying that, and even I (as a junior-ish S/H Capt) would be thinking seriously about it, especially given we are going nowhere fast with the S/H EBA.... more
'ing......
Last edited by Ron & Edna Johns; 14th Jun 2006 at 14:38.
Grandpa Aerotart
Info I have from the sandpit is not even 50 guys were interviewed let alone offered jobs. Apparently more like 30.
Maybe 20 offered jobs.
From what I hear several dozen odd current Ansettstar pilots have bid long haul so not quite accurate to suggest they voted up the EBA and then were not interested in the flying.
My source in the pit suggests EK would ignore their 'offer' if it is in fact true..with possible exception of a TRE/TRI or two, but even then unlikely...despite the fact that a huge % of the encumbant EK pilots are over 900 hrs in 365 days and Rostering is running on adrenaline only. Nothing new there, anyone ever seen airline management react differently?
As far as AWAs are concerned well anything is possible in our brave new world...but would it really be a good idea given the likely reaction of the encumbants? They can all nick off to the Sandpit too...I think EK would be happy to expedite their applications.
Entertaining as **** innit?
Maybe 20 offered jobs.
From what I hear several dozen odd current Ansettstar pilots have bid long haul so not quite accurate to suggest they voted up the EBA and then were not interested in the flying.
My source in the pit suggests EK would ignore their 'offer' if it is in fact true..with possible exception of a TRE/TRI or two, but even then unlikely...despite the fact that a huge % of the encumbant EK pilots are over 900 hrs in 365 days and Rostering is running on adrenaline only. Nothing new there, anyone ever seen airline management react differently?
As far as AWAs are concerned well anything is possible in our brave new world...but would it really be a good idea given the likely reaction of the encumbants? They can all nick off to the Sandpit too...I think EK would be happy to expedite their applications.
Entertaining as **** innit?
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There actually is a glimer of hope in all of this. AWAs were designed to shaft workers, not to improve conditions! Clearly if they have been offered it is because pornstar cant find people to play with their joystick on the conditions accepted by the jesters. (No one should be too surprised). So management are facing the reality of "maket forces" and the very real prospect of having expensive jets sitting around uncrewed at the end of the year? What happened to the 700 applications they were crowing about a few months back? Either they have the most stringent application process on earth, which none of the 700 could pass, or it was all BS! (Or both).
I think we have found rock bottom for terms and conditions. Management offering AWAs above the T & Cs JPC accepted seems to suggest I am right. If only it were true that the AWAs do exist in this case, not yet convinced...
Jesters, if you believe management are going to demote these Guys after 3 years, you have another thing coming. That clause is written into YOUR contract, not theirs. You can bet your bottom dollar it in no way appears on their shinny new AWA contracts! So it will only be enforced on the JPC guys who voted it in. These Guys will not be covered by your stinking deal, only you will!
I think we have found rock bottom for terms and conditions. Management offering AWAs above the T & Cs JPC accepted seems to suggest I am right. If only it were true that the AWAs do exist in this case, not yet convinced...
Jesters, if you believe management are going to demote these Guys after 3 years, you have another thing coming. That clause is written into YOUR contract, not theirs. You can bet your bottom dollar it in no way appears on their shinny new AWA contracts! So it will only be enforced on the JPC guys who voted it in. These Guys will not be covered by your stinking deal, only you will!
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The actual figure was a total of 10 A330 Check and Trainers from EK and Dragon were offered positions. (still waiting to see how many take up the jobs).
True it has been hard getting interest with such a low salary base.
But it is true that at the end of 3yrs they will revert to seniority dictated positions.
As to hold a Check position they have to rate a command.
My advise is if you are getting a better deal, get it in wrighting.
True it has been hard getting interest with such a low salary base.
But it is true that at the end of 3yrs they will revert to seniority dictated positions.
As to hold a Check position they have to rate a command.
My advise is if you are getting a better deal, get it in wrighting.
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Why can't EK see the light???
Improve T&C's to attract more pilots and improve current morale. Thus, in employing more pilots the rostering problem is relieved (to an extent) and more pilots may actually STAY at the company. It seems too easy.
The all important question I have is:
Is it cheaper to keep losing these pilots and having to re-train other new-hires (not to mention uncrewed a/c), or is it more cost effective to just treat the pilots right in the first place? I'm not talking mega-bucks or 400 hrs a year, but just fair treatment. Is there something wrong with me, or is it just EK management?!?!?!?
Improve T&C's to attract more pilots and improve current morale. Thus, in employing more pilots the rostering problem is relieved (to an extent) and more pilots may actually STAY at the company. It seems too easy.
The all important question I have is:
Is it cheaper to keep losing these pilots and having to re-train other new-hires (not to mention uncrewed a/c), or is it more cost effective to just treat the pilots right in the first place? I'm not talking mega-bucks or 400 hrs a year, but just fair treatment. Is there something wrong with me, or is it just EK management?!?!?!?
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A lot of experts floating around here.....
The TREs and TRIs were well prepared for the arrival of the Jetstar recruitment team. They collectively placed the deal the QF 330 Standards dept currently enjoy (before Jetstar's wet little nose) and said "where do I sign?" Oh, and while we are at it, they are management positions so clause X states that the position is 3yr renewable as Captain!
Given that Jetstar has no other choice.....you experts can decide what actually happened.
p.s. Do you really believe that in under 3yrs some snotty nosed kid whose daddy forked out $37k for an endorsement last week, is going to displace a current TRE?? HHHmmm...on second thoughts....
The TREs and TRIs were well prepared for the arrival of the Jetstar recruitment team. They collectively placed the deal the QF 330 Standards dept currently enjoy (before Jetstar's wet little nose) and said "where do I sign?"
Oh, and while we are at it, they are management positions so clause X states that the position is 3yr renewable as Captain!Given that Jetstar has no other choice.....you experts can decide what actually happened.
p.s. Do you really believe that in under 3yrs some snotty nosed kid whose daddy forked out $37k for an endorsement last week, is going to displace a current TRE?? HHHmmm...on second thoughts....
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mmmmm
Oh4sure...the problem is, is that no management at the moment want to start this bidding war off!! Once Ek start then others will have to follow suit. CX will have to offer better Aus package than the one going at the mo, J* will, etc etc etc. It seems that what is logical to us is quite distasteful to management. It is going to happen, that i am sure but by whom and when is the only question!!!
There is no such thing as patriotism anymore in this job!! Management have seen to that over the years. It will be their undoing though as pilots will sell themselves off to the highest bidder and with the eventual shortage of pilots in the middle east/India/China, those bids will be quite a sum. This of course will have a roll on effect with mainstream airlines who will also have to start paying top dollar to keep their pilots!!!
Even if this story of the EK guys is stretched, watch this space as i believe that will be the norm in years to come!!!!!!!!
Bring it on!!!!!!!!
There is no such thing as patriotism anymore in this job!! Management have seen to that over the years. It will be their undoing though as pilots will sell themselves off to the highest bidder and with the eventual shortage of pilots in the middle east/India/China, those bids will be quite a sum. This of course will have a roll on effect with mainstream airlines who will also have to start paying top dollar to keep their pilots!!!
Even if this story of the EK guys is stretched, watch this space as i believe that will be the norm in years to come!!!!!!!!
Bring it on!!!!!!!!
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Tifters,
What you are saying is indeed correct, I suspect however that at some stage Emirates will have to kick off the bidding war, because with their current orders they are the airline with the most to lose...
Cheers, HH.
PS: What an interesting thread, possibly the most informative on airline conditions yet!
What you are saying is indeed correct, I suspect however that at some stage Emirates will have to kick off the bidding war, because with their current orders they are the airline with the most to lose...
Cheers, HH.
PS: What an interesting thread, possibly the most informative on airline conditions yet!
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Alan Joyce has promised GD that he will introduce AWAs into JQ.
If JQ International is to fly, and GD made it clear that it must in his speech in CB this week, AJ has no choice but to get (buy) the EK pilots.
He will enter into AWA's with EK lads, and they will be attractive.
AJ has a track record for paying for people he wants. I have been told the recently employed manager, ex Gulf, is earning $70k more than the job is supposed to be graded at! What is good for the goose, has to be good for the gander.
If JQ International is to fly, and GD made it clear that it must in his speech in CB this week, AJ has no choice but to get (buy) the EK pilots.
He will enter into AWA's with EK lads, and they will be attractive.
AJ has a track record for paying for people he wants. I have been told the recently employed manager, ex Gulf, is earning $70k more than the job is supposed to be graded at! What is good for the goose, has to be good for the gander.