The UK GA scene - where is it now and where's it going???

[Mad Girl]

I’m a newbie to flying so I’ve been reading everything on these forums with interest.

On reading “The Wizwheel, time to say good bye?”, the thread was partially high-jacked by IO540 commenting on the UK GA scene today.

So, why do so many apparently good pilot candidates avoid GA? May I suggest a few factors:
1. A desire to keep everything in the past
2. Outdated procedures (the circular slide rule is a really good example) when it's obvious to anyone with a brain that there are better ways
3. Anoraks everywhere (result of 1 2 4)
4. Lack of women (result of 3, mainly).

My answers / opinion….
1 My flying club is actively trying to encourage change, nice friendly club atmosphere, all staff friendly and willing to give advice, support etc (laugh with/at me, cry with me), people bring the family, nice food, bar, barbecues, curry & quiz nights…...
2 Wouldn’t know, got one but don’t know how to work it yet. My experience… technology is great but isn’t it wonderful how easily we forget to do things the old way when “sods law” kicks in – it always does, and when we least expect it – I WILL be learning how to use it ‘cos I’m not that cocky yet.
3 But they are everywhere!!!! If you get involved in any activity there will be anoraks. Why should flying be an exception? I just avoid them – lots of other nice people to talk to who tolerate this newly obsessive little flyer.
4 Don’t know where you go flying, but my club’s got nice female flying instructors and what am I?? (not 20 yr old leggy blonds – but what makes you think you’re so special??).

It's time to move on, ditch all this old rubbish and drag GA kicking and screaming into the 20th century.

Will it happen? No way. My kids will almost certainly not be flying. Not because VFRGA will be outlawed, but because the shrinking GA population won't support the present GA airfield network. Once these start to close, things will move fast. The UK will become like Greece or Spain, with negligible GA activity.

I’m still in the circuit, so haven’t seen the big wide world yet, so what’s it like?? Is my club the exception rather than the norm??

This virgin flyer would like to know the truth about the big blue yonder out there, so perhaps you “old hacks” would care to rape and pillage, and open this innocents eyes. I’ll now step off my soapbox and let you carry on.

ps sorry about the bad formatting - I haven't got to grips with this quote button thingy yet

[potkettleblack]

Madgirl I am sure your club is great and good on you for getting stuck in and enjoying your PPL. Having read many of IO540's posts I would tend to think that he is mainly fed up with GA as a whole and in particular the way it is regulated in a backward facing sense.

Once you have your licence and a few hours under your belt you to will come to see how things could be run so much better. Ask your school how many people drop out of flying within a year of getting their licences and that should be enough to give you a flavour for the problem that is facing the industry as a whole.

If you get a chance once you have your PPL try and do some flying in the US and you will see just how straight forward it can be. GPS approaches, no landing fees, full ATC services, nav aids galore to get you from A to B, swipe card fuel pumps at unmanned airports...the list goes on. Oh and did I mention it is half the price? Thats why so many of us that are heading down the commercial route get out of the flying club scene as soon as we can.

For people that want to fly recreationally though there is little for them to aim for once they have the ppl. The IMC is great but falls short of the IR in so many respects. I know the CAA have plans to change this but it has been years in the waiting and we are still not sure what this will involve. For keen GA flyers who wanted to advance their flying there really wasn't much for them to progress to unless they had a years spare time to sit the ATPL ground school which was pure overkill for their purposes.

Then there are the costs at flying at a club....I could go on for hours about this but ask yourself if paying £120 an hour for a 20-30 year old aircraft with a VOR (maybe 2), couple of old radios, no autopilot, tatty seats, coffee spills etc is considered value for money. If you only intend to do a few hours here and there then you can kind of substantiate the cost but what if you wanted to do 100-150hours per year and keep yourself nice and current which of course is what you need in an ideal world to be on top of things. So in this scenario you are looking more towards groups which can open an entire can of worms for the newbie.

Anyway there are some thoughts to get the ball rolling. Give it heaps on the PPL.

[Humaround]

I'd like to suggest that the future is in farmstrip-based flying.


I'd agree with many if IO540's points. What I can't really understand is why so many pilots continue to pay enormous sums to hire dull spamcans from restrictive flying clubs?


If airfields continue to close, and I'm sure that they will, I believe more and more pilots will use the farmstrip network. Instead of hiring, they will buy into syndicates and benefit from much lower running costs. They will fly more often, raising skill levels.


Airfields which work hard to attract visiting pilots, by providing good food, friendly service, and low landing fees, will thrive. Compton Abbas is a fine example.


IO540 said "My kids will almost certainly not be flying. Not because VFRGA will be outlawed, but because the shrinking GA population won't support the present GA airfield network. Once these start to close, things will move fast. The UK will become like Greece or Spain, with negligible GA activity."


I disagree with IO540 that sport flying will continue to contract and disappear. There will always be pilots and would-be pilots. It may well be that most will not use the tired and expensive airfields which we see at present.

[IO540]

I apologise for apparently hijacking a thread in my normal provocative style, but I feel that any debate about the traditional elements of the GA scene are inextricably linked with the modernist v. traditionalist debate. One can't objectively debate the pros and cons of the slide rule without extending the debate as described - because there are so much easier ways of doing the job.

With a business in electronics, I live and work in the modern world - as do most people in fact. I completely fail to see any objective argument for things like the slide rule and non-use of GPS. While modernisation is bound to erode traditional skills, it's equally the case that the motor car has eroded horse riding skills, but so what?

Mad Girl

You may be very lucky with your club, which is excellent. However, I suggest you get your PPL and then see how you get on. It's a very different world post-PPL.

potkettleblack

I am indeed fed up with the way the CAA has kept everything in the Dark Ages. I won't blame the CAA for anywhere near as many "wrongs" as many people do, but the UK GA scene is totally fragmented and nobody else has had the power to change things. Yet, with their ex-RAF-navigator traditionalist attitudes, they have chosen to do nothing at all, other than to churn out a load of patronising educational material. But to be fair to them, the flight training business has in general not wanted to modernise (because of the general lack of capital) and the CAA could have never acted against it.

There is no prospect of the IMC Rating being extended because JAA rules things now, and soon it will be EASA. The CAA is powerless now in this department. There is a JAA committee looking at reducing the ridiculous IR ground school (the chief thing driving the N-reg scene) but they are not making any useful progress.

Humaround

The only way out of the situation is to buy a plane, or a share in one. Until then, you are stuck in the same rut.

I agree that VFR flying as a sport (or leisure activity, whatever) will continue. The problem is that one needs an airfield to fly from. How far will you drive to an airfield? I know some people will drive for 2 hours but I think they are a tiny minority; most would chuck it in. For a start, except for a very long flight across Europe, there would be zero utility value in flying if you had to drive that far. Also, one's currency will go down the pan. Ask your local airfield for a breakdown of their income.

The future for many will be farm strips, but the vast majority of present-day PPLs will never get access to a farm strip. Have you tried it recently? I've tried it over the years and a simple polite enquiry regarding parking gets a very curt response. Farm strip communities tend to be very closely run private clubs, with tightly controlled recruitment and you have to be "in" with the right people to get invited. Most are constantly battling with NIMBYs so they are trying to keep a lid on how many pilots are active. Just like exclusive fishing clubs with fishing rights on a particular nice lake. You also need the "right" sort of plane; they don't want anything in the IFR tourer class - even if they have the required 700+m runway which most don't have.

[DRJAD]

I agree with virtually all that has been written so far about this subject. The remedies are generally obvious, but the will amongst clubs and flying organisations does not often seem to be there.

My old club (before I moved to a different part of the company) was trying in its own way to do the sort of thing Madgirl mentions ref. her club. With mixed success, I might add. It worked, after a fashion, for assertive individuals, but those more introspective people were still left somewhat isolated.

I have heard of situations where aircraft apparently used for touring are still equipped with basic navigation instruments (e.g. not over-stable DI rather than HSI, no autopilot, single altimeter, etc.) on the basis that that was what new PPLs were used to having in training, so there is no reason for them to want or need anything more 'advanced'. I can see some logic in this, in the sense that it will encourage new PPLs to use the skills they have developed. However, where does it leave them when they wish to undertake more adventurous touring, for example. My problem with this attitude is that it does not seem to be developmental. All this is, of course, additional to the comfort and amenity element missing in elderly and often fairly dilapidated aircraft - at least as perceived by the non-pilot passenger.

For these reasons, when touring, I often seek out special hiring arrangements in order to gain access to something more convenient for the touring I wish to do. This brings its own special expense, of course, in terms of checkouts, currency on type, even conversions or additional ratings (with more requirements on currency). These are the ultimate effects of trying to secure flexible flying opportunities in the UK GA arena, and may also contribute to its possible decline.

[Say again s l o w l y]

There are many, many problems with the GA "scene" at the moment but they all stem from from two things, Cost and over-regulation.

The cost of flying in this country is ludicrous, which stops the inward investment needed to provide things like new a/c or avionics.
The over-regulation for things like the IR, completely removes an entire strata of PPL's from flying G-reg machines. It not only is a financial issue, but also a safety one. If the IR was more useable, then more people would train for it and have more currency and capability.

At the moment, PFA and farm strip flying is expanding because they are seemingly more relaxed and sensibly managed. We all need to keep aviation as free and open as possible, otherwise it will end up being a sport only for the rich or the totally obsessed, rather than being for all. I am constantly finding new ways in which we are being scr*wed or bullied and since we are such a disparate bunch we can't make strong enough representation for ourselves.

Clubs can make a difference, but there are still too many sharks and incompetants in this business. I only know of one club run on sound financial foundations and I'm involved with it, all others I've known have either been "dodgy" or simply hopeless. This again stops investment as there is such a bad record industry wide, even though there are many good and sensible people involved in GA flying. The bad spoil it for the rest of us.

[rustle]

If the IR was more useable, then more people would train for it and have more currency and capability.

Do you mean "more usable" or cheaper?

[IO540]

The cost of getting an IR is not prohibitive relative to the ongoing cost of flying IFR and remaining IFR current.

I am certain that the chief problem with the JAA IR is that the sort of people who can afford to fly at that level (who tend to be people with the appropriate budgets, obviously, otherwise what are they doing there) are people with busy lives who can't slot the massive JAA ground school into everything else they have to do. Well, not before one exam expires before they can sit the rest... This isn't a problem with the main class of candidate which is a young man, usually "under employed", wishing to become an airline pilot.

Nobody is seriously arguing for an easier flying syllabus, and indeed the FAA IR flying syllabus is just as hard if not harder in certain respects.

But getting an FAA IR is also a major hassle. You have to go to the USA, mess around with visas and others papers, put the plane on the N register (which usually means buying one, but that's fair enough for IFR anyway), and mess around within the DfT restrictions.

If there was a European IR which involves the same training (ground+air) as the FAA one, and there is zero rational reason why there should not be, very few people would bother going the FAA route. A lot more people could use GA for utility purposes, just like they do in the USA.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Sorry, should have read, "Less ridiculous ground school to cover for an IR"!

[wsmempson]

I agree with most of what's been said here; the GA scene does have it's frustrations and the rise in costs is certainly helping to stifle advances in technology that are now common-place in the automotive world (electronic engine managment, sat-nav navigation, new fuel efficient aircraft) although the PFA guys are beggining to embrace such advances. Perhaps this will ultimately be the future of GA, as our aging fleet of Pipers and Cessnas can't last forever.

Personally, I think that there are good reasons to maintain the 'steam-driven' approach to navigation training, as that way the principles get absorbed properly before moving on to the ubiquitous GPS. What I can't understand is why GPS is regarded by flying schools as the work of Baelzebbub; surely a basic training in the use of GPS should be part of the PPL syllabus - rather than maintaining the present attitude that it doesn't exist.

However, I think that it is very easy to start to become "Eyeore"-ish about GA - which is unfair as there is still a huge amount to enjoy; if we - the pilots who already hold PPL's - continue to carp, surely we are aiding the decline of GA by discouraging new blood by our negativity?

Madgirl, good for you for taking up this most wonderful of pursuits, and good to hear that your club is a good place to spend time; so many aren't....

I fly a venerable PA28 140 out of EGTB, so if you fancy a right hand seat, to broaden your experience, do PM me. Otherwise, good luck with the studies.

[SkyHawk-N]

if we - the pilots who already hold PPL's - continue to carp, surely we are aiding the decline of GA by discouraging new blood by our negativity?.

well said.

and good to hear that your club is a good place to spend time; so many aren't....

hang on a minute, didn't you just say .... :E

[DRJAD]

Personally, I think that there are good reasons to maintain the 'steam-driven' approach to navigation training, as that way the principles get absorbed properly before moving on to the ubiquitous GPS. What I can't understand is why GPS is regarded by flying schools as the work of Baelzebbub; surely a basic training in the use of GPS should be part of the PPL syllabus - rather than maintaining the present attitude that it doesn't exist.

I agree in respect of navigation training. I would certainly not advocate becoming dependent on GPS, or any one navigation toolset.

I believe, however, that it is not unreasonable to expect to be able to find aircraft for touring (i.e. post licence acquisition) that have some reasonable levels of modern equipment, and comfort for one's passengers.

[Julian]

Yep GA needs to move forward even if it doesnt like it!!!!

I am fully supportive of teaching PPLs basic such as flight logs, W&B, dead reckoning, etc. but once you have your PPL and know what you are doing what is wrong with getting your laptop to do all the work for you and then a final 'cross check' against your charts?

As regards GPS, if its there then use it in conjunction with your map! If its GPS or any other device, technique, etc that will reduce my workload to free me up to concentrate on other, possibly more important issues, then I am all for it.

J.

[robin]

Yep GA needs to move forward even if it doesnt like it!!!!
I am fully supportive of teaching PPLs basic such as flight logs, W&B, dead reckoning, etc. but once you have your PPL and know what you are doing what is wrong with getting your laptop to do all the work for you and then a final 'cross check' against your charts?
As regards GPS, if its there then use it in conjunction with your map! If its GPS or any other device, technique, etc that will reduce my workload to free me up to concentrate on other, possibly more important issues, then I am all for it.
J.

Nothing at all wrong with what you say. You should always cross-check calculations, but the reality is that people don't

I suppose I am so old that I have seen the decline in people's ability to remember the basics. Once you have a laptop loaded up with a programme for your W & B and route planning you begin to rely on it and won't question stupidities. Look what has been happening with sat navs in cars. Drivers can see a cliff or a ford, but will follow the computer instructions, even if common sense tells them to stop

For what it's worth I am not a luddite in technology. Anything that makes life easier for me in the air is welcome. But technology is not the solution to all of our problems in aviation

[Mad Girl]

I’m still in the circuit, so haven’t seen the big wide world yet, so what’s it like?? Is my club the exception rather than the norm??

This virgin flyer would like to know the truth about the big blue yonder out there, so perhaps you “old hacks” would care to rape and pillage, and open this innocents eyes. I’ll now step off my soapbox and let you carry on.


Hold up guys - slow down.
Can I remind you of the point of my question.

Am I going to have places to fly to and nice people to chat to at the other end or is it all total doom and gloom.

I don't have GPS in my car let alone in my club 'plane so haven't got a clue what you're going on about (and no my car is not about to fall to pieces - IO540's original post) and NO I don't know how to use a wizwheel - yet.

If you get too technical we newbies can't follow you - so how are we gonna learn???

[Droopystop]

Mad Girl,

I too read some of the replies to your first post and thought that you might be jargoned out of the thread.

There are some great little GA airfields out there with friendly welcomes and good cuppas. There is also some fantastic scenery around to enjoy. Yes there seems to be a lot of musty, delapidated machines out there and I think the lack of investment does nothing to expand GA but in my opinion it is worth persuing your PPL.

Kit, technology etc etc. The great thing about aviation is that there is the whole spectrum out there from old classics with almost no instruments to the machine kitted out like a 747. Unfortunately money pervades, but other than that you can choose. It all depends on the sort of aviation YOU want to do.

[High Wing Drifter]

Am I going to have places to fly to and nice people to chat to at the other end
Most definately. You'll probably notice on your travels that PPRuNE is a bit of a microcosm; its manifest pessimism doesn't really seem to reflect flesh and blood attitudes.
or is it all total doom and gloom.
No, I don't believe so. I think that we will remain healthy. I suspect that the new technologies will provide economically viable replacement engines, instruments and avionics before too long (if not now!). Also the impending changes to the way airspace will be managed (Mode S will probabaly work out as an enabler, not a disabler), GPS approaches, relaxed commercial single engine IFR rules and corporate/very light jet operations will continue to prop up the regional infrastructure that serious and sport private pilots rely on too.

I agree with IO540 when he says that to really get the most from flying, you need to join a group or buy.

[Anywings]

Mad Girl
In all of this, don't forget to enjoy the beauty, challenges and sheer pleasure of flying. :)

[Whirlybird]

Don't have time to comment on a lot of this, but....

Don’t know where you go flying, but my club’s got nice female flying instructors and what am I?? (not 20 yr old leggy blonds – but what makes you think you’re so special??).

Your club is unusual, Madgirl. So is Sheffield, where I instruct, where we have three female helicopter instructors (in two schools). In the UK as a whole, 6% of PPLs are female, and 2-3% of commercial pilots. That's not many, by any standards. A fair number of women do a PPL and rarely if ever meet another female pilot, let alone an instructor. And at Tatenhill, where I instruct on Saturdays, it's quite rare to have a day when someone doesn't assume I'm the tea lady and look distinctly shocked when I say I'm taking them flying, or make comments about women drivers (often quite lightheartedly)....and a bit back one person refused to fly with me because I'm female!!!

Personally I don't think the anorak-ness of flying clubs is the reason for this; I'm simply adding a bit to how it is out in the big wide world. But to comment more generally, there are loads of nice people, some great places to fly to, a reasonable social scene if you look for it, fly-ins somewhere or other most summer weekends...loads of things. And some of us fly what we can afford, use map and compass on a nice sunny day and GPS when there seems good reason too, and don't get too excited about all these things - we just like to get airborne, and talk about it when we can't.

There's loads more I could say but I gotta go teach some people to fly. :ok:

[mazzy1026]

MadGirl - I just got my PPL in March and now have 4.5 hours as pilot in command, so all my comments are coming from someone who has low experience, not only from a flying point of view, but the general GA community as a whole.

I fly from Liverpool, a busy international airport, and I have never yet experienced anything negative as described, and if I ever think I am about to, then it is generally down to the attitude of the person involved, and not GA itself - airmanship for example. I have only ever flown to Wolverhampton and Tatenhill - both very nice airfields, with very nice people - again, nothing negative as described.

I have also met a fair few female pilots, who are every good, including Whirlybird who although I have never flown with her (I will I promise) I know is an exceptional instructor, not only because of her reputation (as a pilot :E ) but because of her attitude in general. That's enough compliments for you today anyway ;)

I would like a definition of 'anorak' - I mean aren't we all aviation anorak's in our own way? Don't we all love to talk about flying in the pub? Don't we all get on our wives/husband's nerves when we don't shutup about it?

Finally, the age old GPS debate - I haven't bought one and don't think I will. They are an excellent piece of kit, you can't deny that, and they do make flying easy - but to me, I love drawing the line on the chart, finding where the railway meets the bridge and flying a new heading - guess I must be an anorak.

I second the offer of a right hand seat MadGirl, if you are ever oop north! Enjoy your flying (you will anyway!) and make your own judgements from what you see :ok:

[High Wing Drifter]

6% of PPLs are female, and 2-3% of commercial pilots
I think those numbers are set to change. My small and empirical perception is that about 15-20% (and rising) of CPL trainees and instructors are are women.

[Fuji Abound]

Moving towards GPS or staying with traditional navigation is not the issue.

The issue is how we incentivise people to become pilots AND stay pilots.

The drop out rate of new pilots is extraordinarily high. Hang on to just a small percentage of those who qualify and you more than compensate for fewer people training to become pilots. You start to rejuvenate GA.

Mad girl - you ask are you going to have places to fly to and meet nice people.

Take on step back.

You will find that the majority of new pilots don’t fly to other places. They take friends around the local area - not too far from home. They may venture a little further afield in the local cabbage patch if you are lucky. They then realise the “exciting” places they fly to, they could get to by car. Not only is that a lot cheaper but also a great deal more convenient.

The thrill of flying the club spam can in the same way around the same area also starts to diminish at around the same time they are adding up all the costs of flying.

The end is close.

Mad girl - this is the scenario you need to avoid.

Find a good club. Join a good group as soon as you can. Latch on to another pilot or instructor who welcomes your company and go fly. Take on some longer journeys as soon as you can. Find interesting places to go - there are plenty - to which you would prefer not to drive. Try a few different types. You may find your thrills come from aerobatics, or flying an open cockpit. Find your reasons to keep on flying and you will help keep GA alive.

When you have done that, you will also realise that GA must embrace everyone. It must embrace the traditionalist. It must embrace the modernists with their new fangled GPS sets. It must embrace those who want an IR to enable them to fly for business. It must realise that if costs, red tape, and elitism continue to grow, then flying will become so elite there will not be any pilots left to pay.

So are you going to have places to fly .. .. .. Yes, but we are coming towards the end of the golden age of aviation. The biggest problem will be the increasing cost of fuel. Not today, or tomorrow but in the next forty or fifty years GA will need to change out of all recognition if it is to continue. Make the most of it now!

[Julian]

Find interesting places to go - there are plenty - to which you would prefer not to drive. Try a few different types.

To add to what Fuji says, dont forget that once you get a licence it also opens a complete new world when you go on holiday!

I go to the US almost every year and the oppurtunities for flying there are amazing! Imagine getting San Francisco or Las Vegas in your logbook next to your local airfield - give you something to look back on.

Its a completely different holiday when you realise that you are not now restricted to a few miles within your holiday destination. It also throws people off at work when you say you are off to California and they ask
"Are you hiring a car"
"No actually, I am hiring a 182T with Twin G1000s and taking my mates to Vegas for the weekend" :}

If you just stay flying in the UK, again as Fuji says, dont get yourself stuck in the circuit or you could become another drop statistic!

J.

[mazzy1026]

Julian - how dare you put such expensive outbound ideas in my head! :cool:

I fancy organising a week or two away in the states, kind of like a 'flying holiday' where you go abroad with just a bag and a PPL/Passport - hire a plane and go anywhere....

Anyone up for it :sad:

[Julian]

Maz,

Already booked mate, I am there from 10th July for 3 wks.

Current itiniery is

Long Beach - San Diego - Palm Springs - Scottsdale - Las Vegas - San Francisco.

No doubt this will change as it always does when other pilots mention places they have flown into and its a case of you just have to try it. Heehee.

I may spend the final week letting someone else do the flying and catch a commercial flight over to Maui but not fixed in stone.

In fact, another good reason to get your licence Madgirl, you are not tied to someone elses itiniery!!! :)

J.

[mazzy1026]

Jealous :(

MadGirl - I think this is more than enough inspiration, not only to you, but to us all ;)

[stiknruda]

Julian,

There is a very experienced Pitts instructor in Scottsdale, I'd recommend an hour or two with him - you'll learn lots!

="http://www.airbum.com"

Stik

3 goes at editting the link, sorry!!

[Julian]

Stik,

A Pitts is something I have always wanted to have a go in. I have done some aeros (Cap 10B) but told these are a whole new ball game.

Thanks for the link, you may have just cost me some $$$$$$$$$ :)

J.

[Mad Girl]

You may find your thrills come from aerobatics, or flying an open cockpit. Find your reasons to keep on flying and you will help keep GA alive.


I got into the PPL by having Aerobatic trial lessons and wanting to go up and whizz about on my own :D .
So... I already know one of the things that I want to do but I'm always willing to learn more.
Also, my partner has tried Aero's once and thoroughly enjoyed it but is unlikely to want to whizz about upside down all the time - hence the GA question.

Hi Stik - We're still going to Leicester this weekend are you?? Is it a case of if I find your 'plane I'll find you?? :ok:

[DRJAD]

I really don't think joining a group or syndicate is absolutely necessary in order to be able to expand one's horizons.

It may be desirable so to do, if one has the available capital to tie up in such an arrangement. Personally, I have other things to do with what capital is available, so I hire. Hiring has not stopped me planning and executing longer and more ambitious touring as time goes on, though it might be the case that I would have done more flying as such.

The point is to have some sort of incentive to develop. In this activity, it os probably the case that one has to devise and act on one's own incentive - rather than have it set by others. Nevertheless, it is possible to do so either inside a group or without it. Hiring for me provides an incentive to make the hiring time count in some way beneficial to development.

Having said that, the options available for hiring are limited as soon as one starts to wish for aircraft somewhat better equipped than standard club fare. That is undeniable, and perhaps a gap in the market (though I would be amongst the first to point out my own ignorance of market conditions). Still, though, the fact remains that one has to find one's own path through the various available options to develop one's own flying - or give up. For me the path is hiring, for others it is group or single ownership. None is more valid than another.

[stiknruda]

MG - If you find my aeroplane this weekend, you'll be at my house!!

Unfortunately I shan't be attending the Leicester comp as my "charge" has had to scratch and I believe that he wants me to repair his broken aeroplane.

Bodmin next weekend though. I need to go and fly the sequence a few times before I head down to the West Country.

No doubt we'll bump into each other somewhere. You've got a PM.

Stik

[Whirlybird]

6% of PPLs are female, and 2-3% of commercial pilots

I think those numbers are set to change. My small and empirical perception is that about 15-20% (and rising) of CPL trainees and instructors are are women.

I hope this is true. But in 2001, when I did my CPL ground school, I was the only woman, among approx 30 men - 3%. One of the other female instructor here at Sheffield did hers a year or so ago, same proportion, ie she was the only woman. It WILL change, someday...but I'm not sure it has yet. But like I said, I certainly hope so; there's no reason why not.

[UL730]

This virgin flyer would like to know the truth about the big blue yonder out there….

Pre qualification your progress will be carefully mentored but after that the big blue yonder tends to be full of weather, somewhat indiscernible regulation, lots of adaptation and strategic problem solving.

I found that from the first flight to where I am now – is as much a reflection of how I faired in life. If you look inside yourself – you will know what lies out in the big blue yonder.

It’s a glorious ride and fast or slow, distant or close – irreducibly memorable.

[Tuned In]

I think Mad Girl has been lucky to find her feet in a friendly aviation environment. She has much the same experience of the people in GA that I have - friendly, open and more than the rest of society willing to talk to a stranger, and be welcoming and helpful. Along with a fair share of anoraks, usually harmless enough.

Not sure where IO flies, but he seems to have little patience with other aviators who don't want to do things his way. I think that is a pity, as I gather from his posts he has an advanced aircraft with some very modern kit. It is available to GA, so I cannot see why he is not satisfied. The US IR he presumably holds still allows him to fly in the UK under IFR in most circumstances, and I believe it should carry on like that (despite not being as challenging flying as the JAA IR - according to those I know who have both qualifications this is the case).

I would agree if he is suggesting that EASA should come up with some equivalent of the US IR, but the problem is that by tradition US commercial pilots don't fly larger aircraft until they have many more hours, so the IR does not have to prepare them as thoroughly. The JAA IR is aimed at people going straight onto a type rating, or after another 40 hours IFR into single-crew IFR commercial flying on as few as 400 hours TT! Perhaps it is time to have a totally seperate "PPL IR" - an EASA IMC rating if you like, but allowing IFR in class A. That would be good for GA, in IO's IFR tourer class. The same issue doesn't apply to the groundschool as all the commercials go ATPL not IR, so perhaps the reform process there should be hurried, as a start.

He has presumably never had a GPS fail. I have, on a Garmin set, on several occasions - some apparently due to lack of reception, some due to the set actually crashing and needing power interupt to restart. One particular area that it doesn't like is around Cherbourg, where there are some small gaps to fly between danger and restricted areas.

And we have the main reason for the use of "outdated" techniques - they are tried and tested, and modes of failure are known and the contingencies well-established. In other words they work and have proved safe.

Clearly I do not have a brain, despite the qualifications, as I would say that the circular slide rule is still used because it is actually better than most other techniques, and for most of its functions as easy as an electronic calculator for those that bother to learn it thoroughly. It is also far easier to spot errors, as it forces the user to have an idea of the answer before starting. I think the term IO is looking for is not "easier" but "more familiar", which an electronic calculator certainly is nowadays.

[Mad Girl]

I have to profess to not understanding the great IR debate that's going on - No doubt my flying nut instructor would enlighten me if I asked him - send me a PM please Boss (words of one syllabel) - he's good like that!!!.

I already know I want to do my night and IMC rating when I eventually get out of the "aaaaagh" circuits and start flying about again and get my license, but is what they're talking about going to affect this??

I'm slightly reassured that some of you feel that there are good places that I could fly into and make "instant" friends.

One thing I haven't mentioned... as some are talking about groups/shares....My club is also trying to make GA more accessable for many people by organising shares in C42's - cheap enough to enable all flyers to get time in and be owners. How many clubs are doing this???

Thankfully, I'm going to be able to buy into a small group or maybe even own outright after I've got my license - depends if I go the aero's route or the more normal route and hire an aero's 'plane for playing in.

Life's very open at the moment and I don't want to close down any routes - just making sure that the aviation scene is ready for another nutter!!!

I appreciate the offer of RH seats as I have a lot to learn and may visit wsmempson as you're not too far away unless you'd like to come to me and see the club - PM me?

[Fuji Abound]

Turned In

I don’t believe many informed observers object to the flying component of the IR of whatever complexion. The objection is to the theory, much of which is irrelevant to the PPL/IR.

You are wrong to suggest one IR is better or worse than the other. The consensus is that each has its advantages and disadvantages. Both ensure the candidate obtains a satisfactory standard.

The approach of commercial pilots in this country and the intention of the IR is not as you suggest. The majority of commercial pilots spent a great many hours in light aircraft, usually hour building whilst teaching. Airlines would rarely consider pilots with less than 600 hours to their credit. The route for a private pilot to a European IR was more straight forward. Changes to practically preclude a private pilot obtaining a European IR are recent. It is for this reason the number issued each year to pilots with no commercial intentions can be counted on a hand or two. It is also the reason why so many private pilots now hold an FAA IR. I believe around 40% of all private pilots in the States hold an IR, I guess it is way less than 5% in Europe. This depressing statistic should alone tell us something, particularly when you consider a lot of pilots in this country hold or would like to hold an IMCR because they recognise it contributes to making them a safer pilot.

In an aircraft, pilots place their trust in a range of equipment, much of which is complex. The map and slide rule are the most basic equipment and the most unlikely to fail. Many derive great satisfaction from "traditional" navigation. However, and this has been debated very often in the past, there is little doubt moving map GPS offers some advantages. Some of us feel aviation should embrace the "old" and the "new". Some feel that in Europe the regulators have been slow to adopt new technology or to be receptive to the needs of GA. Comparisons are bound to be made with the States where GA remains in a good state of health and in Europe where IMHO that is increasingly less true.

The challenge for Madgirl and other new pilots is to embrace and understand the needs of everyone in GA, and to resist the regulatory demands for ever more restrictive practices, for if we fail to do so GA will irreparably damaged.

There are those who would tell you instrument pilots are the elite. There are those who will tell you they have no place in GA unless they hold a commercial license. I cannot imagine a more short sight attitude in a country where the weather is a constant challenge. GA must embrace the pilot who only wants to fly his Auster in 10K viz from one grass strip to another with a map and a slide rule. It must also embrace the new and far more capable aircraft like the Diamond Stars with EFIS and a Garmin 1,000 fit, because these aircraft are capable of safe and fast point to point transport in a wider ranger of conditions. If it fails to do so manufacturers such as Diamond will move their operations to America or where ever they can sell their wares.

In short as the old adage goes, move with the times or get left behind.

[Droopystop]

The great IR debate..........

Put simply, the full instrument rating allows you to fly in any airspace, subject to any restrictions placed on the type of aircraft. In effect it is what you need to fly in the main airway system, into major airports and internationally. Generally considered a professional qualification by the regulator, but is available to the ppl, although at commercial terms ie loads of ground school, twin engines etc. The ground school is extensive and teaches a load of stuff that you might never need again, but then again it is designed to filter out budding commerical pilots rather than educate the finer art of instrument flying.

The IMC rating will allow you to fly in most of the UK airspace and into almost all big airports IFR.

So what it boils down to is what sort of flying you want to do and how far you want to go and what level of weather dependancy you can live with.

Those that debate the IR are those wishing to do extended touring in Europe and get home in time to go back to work. I reckon it is a conspiracy to put GA aviation off IFR to avoid melt down of the airspace co-ordination system!!

[IO540]

There is absolutely zero risk of an airways melt-down, simply because so few pilots can afford planes of the required standard & equipment level. Also very few with the money to pull off the aforementioned have also got the time to get an IR. Even the FAA one is a long haul.

The low traffic argument is obvious to anybody who flies say 800nm in any direction out of the UK. Once past the UK FIR boundary, there is far less GA traffic, and in some countries there is close to none at all. Just some microlights pottering about way down below, perhaps.

I think a much more likely explanation for the very hard Euro IR is simply that the powers in charge don't care about GA. In Europe, GA is regarded as a sport and IFR GA doesn't really feature on the event horizon of the GA administrators. No suprise, there is no effective GA lobby. The PPL/IR group www.pplir.org do good work but they don't have the USD 30M or so budget of the US AOPA. Here, the IR is used solely as a route to the ATPL and that's why they don't see a problem with throwing a chunk of several jet type ratings into it.

There is also a great deal of elitism, especially when it comes to the USA who tend to be regarded by the "intellectual Europeans" as a bunch of stupid cowboys. Never underestimate simple factors like this!

[Tuned In]

Fuji

I have absolutely no experience of the FAA IR. I can only go by the judgement of friends who hold one as well as a CAA or JAA IR. The universal comment is that the JAA is more difficult in flying. The most definite opinion of that comes from a friend who teaches JAA IR and CAA IMC ratings, and compares the FAA IR to an IMC rating.The majority of commercial pilots spent a great many hours in light aircraft, usually hour building whilst teaching. Airlines would rarely consider pilots with less than 600 hours to their credit.I am sorry but that is simply untrue, although it would have been closer to the truth 7 years ago. I know a lot of pilots who have entered the airlines with far fewer than 600 hours, many as few as 2-300, and most don't ever instruct. It is common in the UK - and the reason that some single-crew operators have had difficulty recruiting, as they require 400-1000 hours minimum (depending on the operation).

I agree that a moving-map GPS has many advantages - I use one most days. However it also has disadvantages, some of which are most evident when I am flying fuel-critical legs in poor weather, others of which always apply. All can be overcome, but only by use of traditional tools alongside the GPS. The biggest disadvantage is made obvious when you're in the cruise in an airway and the signal suddenly drops out - as has happened to me. Fortunately I only use the GPS to back up my VOR/DME-based navigation. So the traditional methods must still be taught, before the new.

I also agree that aviation is over-regulated in Europe, and stifled by excessive costs. The US has a much better attitude, with aviation encouraged as being a normal part of life, rather than something special and different.

IO540

I would dispute that few people can afford planes of the right equipment. I have flown in one club that had airways equipment in all its PA28s and I think it's 172 (euch, don't like 172s so I don't know for that one), and one that had it in half of its aircraft. They were no more expensive to hire than most clubs in the area. The block is the difficulty of obtaining an IR which you point out, and that should be addressed, but I don't think it will be. The regulators are to blame. Maybe Droopy is right, that they don't want more in the airways. They can get pretty busy in places sometimes.

[IO540]

Tuned In

The problem with airway flight as you describe (VOR as primary) is that ATC often sends you to waypoints that just happen to be navaids (VORs or NDBs) but are much too far away for reception. That's why RNAV capability is mandatory at typical airway levels. I know you can get a KNS80 FM-immune (with an antenna filter) and BRNAV certified but it won't be much good most of the time because you willbe outside the DOC. And I don't know how else you are complying with the BRNAV requirements that apply at typical European airway MEAs - the only other option is an INS! Without a BRNAV GPS, you must be referring to an RNAV box like a KNS80, and they are nearly useless now.

If you don't use a big moving map IFR GPS you are seriously doing yourself out of situational awareness. This is not the same as arguing VOR nav should not be trained, which I am not saying at all. A GPS receiver, like any other piece of kit, can fail.

Another factor re aircraft equipment isn't just the gear it carries. BTW, do all these PA28s have Mode S?? It's also performance. I know a Warrior will climb to FL100, did that in my IR, but it takes for ever and then some extra. If you find yourself in IMC in N Europe at FL80-120 you will probably be collecting ice. One needs a plane that can do VMC on top, say FL150, or you have to hang around waiting for clear-ish skies to cover the whole area. The other week I was collecting ice at FL120 and had to climb to 140. I wouldn't even think of airways flight around Europe without FL150-180 capability (which rules out the PA28/Cessna trainer scene) and while any decent tourer will do that it also means oxygen.

Re the relative difficulty of flight training in the JAA and FAA IR, not many people have actually done both. This is because if you have FAA then the JAA needs doing it all again (and very very few people have done that, and what did they say? - I know of some of these and do know what they say), and if you have JAA you can get the FAA with 1 exam, 1 oral, 1 checkride.

There is a huge difference in style of training; with FAA you can get a deal where you fly around the USA with an instructor for 2 wks and then, having flown every imaginable approach etc, you have your oral and checkride, which will be realtively easy because you have been living the real stuff for 2 wks. This would never be accepted in the much more formal CAA/JAA training where you can do the whole IR in a sim and then banging away between Cranfield and Cambridge.

[Fuji Abound]

Turned in

"I am sorry but that is simply untrue"

Sorry to be pedantic but I said "spent".

The scene has changed in the last six or seven years - I agree. My point however was that the content of the IR has not significantly changed in this period. I dont beleive it can be argued we have the IR we do because it has been adapted to suite all these low hours commercial would bes.

"Fortunately I only use the GPS to back up my VOR/DME-based navigation."

I accept your expereince. Mine is different. I usually fly with two GPS. I have never had one fail - or drop out. In the same time I have had a VOR fail, a radio fail, a DME fail, a DI become sluggish, and an AI slow. With twin GPS personally I prefer to think of the GPS backing up my twin FM immune VOR, VOR G/S, and single DME. Fortunatley the whole lot has never failed but I would get out my map and slide rule if they did.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Fuji makes a very good point, I have never had a GPS fail but I've had an ADF catch fire....., VOR's that are reading 5 deg. different, Sticking glideslopes, and DI's with a mind of their own, oh and HSI's showing 10-15 degree difference between Capt. and F/O.

How did we deal with these issues? Simle, we ignored the dodgy stuff and used our GPS to get us out of trouble.

The FAA IR is a far more sensible thing that our JAA version. (I speak as an FI who teaches both IMC and IR). We could do a lot worse than to copy the American system, it is less theory based and more practical in its application. Not a bad thing at all.

The current situation with regards to PPL IR's is laughable, what should be used as a safety net has a barrier to entry that to my eyes is ludicrous. People should be encouraged to have an IR for safety reasons.

[Julian]

Yep the great IR debate!

I think it has long been decided that one is no better than the other, both have their pros and cons. I have heards dual holders say their JAA IR was harder and have also heard other say that their FAA IR was harder. I think was is in no doubt is that FAA IR is more accessible as a qualification. As SAS says we could learn a thing or two by looking at what is required theory wise to obtain an IR, the route of ONE theory test and an extensive oral exam before you fly makes much more sense.

Remember not all pilots wanting an IR want to join the airlines.

Anyone in any doubt should read "The Killing Zone".

J.