Perth Based JAA ATPLs

[Chronic]

Someone mentioned to me recently that an outift in Perth ran courses for JAA ATPLs etc, apparently 3 weeks long (?!) for X amount of $$$. Can anybody provide any other details or suggest something similar? :} Thanks in advance!

[Aussie]

3 weeks? Goodluck.

I think its around about 9months duration from what ive heard.

Aussie

[Chronic]

Yeah I was sceptical myself :hmm: ...assumed perhaps it was just the exams based on the student having already studied theory...:bored:

[rmcdonal]

Its 3 sessions of 1 week each to revise before sitting the exams. It involves a whole heap of home self study beforehand. I think they offer a fulltime course as well (?).
Here is an idea….why not look the info up at their site? :rolleyes:

[Woomera]

They support PPRuNe through advertising, I suggest you go have a talk to Mark and the boys tell em we sent you. :ok:

http://www.waaviationcollege.com.au/college/contact.asp

[Chronic]

Cheers Woomera & Co.

Excuse my ignorance guys, I hadn't seen their banner on the site, and a google search before my original post didn't help :( . I'll touch base with them and let them know it was PPrune that helped me out, good to see local outfits supporting the site :ok:

Chronic :E

[300ER]

Anybody who thinks they can pass the JAA ATPL in three weeks is obviously to gifted to be in aviation and perhaps should go into Nanotechnology or Astrophysics research.
I don’t know what the present syllabus contains but I’m sure it would not have gotten easier over the years.

When I did the British ATPL I held an Oz SCPL which meant I had passed all the Oz ATPL subjects. There were a lot of topics that we covered which were not relevant but still had to be passed. The Met Practical consisted of decoding and plotting met reports, after which a Synoptic Chart was presented with all the station plots and we were required to draw in all the ALL the isobars and fronts, questions were then asked about the weather one would expect flying from A to B. Met Theory apart from the usual also covered World Climatology and Tephigrams.

Nav Practical consisted of a two hour Mercator Plot which also involved CP and PNR plots.

Instruments covered calculation of compass errors which having passed all the subjects entitled one to legally swing a compass.

Nav-Aids covered Hyperbolic navigation systems and all the navaids we now cover in Oz together with INS, Weather Radar etc.

The exams on Priciples of Flight, Engines etc which we cover at CPL is no where near what is required at JAA level. The Performance A exam again is at a much higher level than todays ATPL Performance.

Our Instructors were ex RAF navigators, instrument engineers and the met Instructor was a retired Meteorologist.

This is just to give you an idea of the work required. The only thing that has been made easier is that there is no more penalty marking but from what I hear the pass marks are now 75%.

It is a pity the NSW Institute of Technology or the University of South Australia does not provide such a course.

[Aussie]

300ER,

Sounds fairly intense. Can one self study at home though?
I think thats what the WAAC course is about. Study at home and then
come in for a week revision before the exams...

Aussie

[300ER]

If you can’t pass the Oz ATPL by self study I would say the JAA ATPL self study course would be well out of your league.

I would suggest contacting Oxford Air Training School or London City University and buy a few sample exam papers on each subject. I am sure it will be very enlightening.

[Oh that's super!]

300ER

It sounds like you did the old UK CAA ATPL. If you did, don't scare people too much! JAA ATPL is substantially easier than the old CAA one, with hugely higher pass rates.

[MBA747]

300ER I believe the JAR is easier, there is only one Nav. paper which includes a short plot on a Lamberts also the Met Prac has gone, but Climatology still remains. So now there is 14 exams to pass instead of 16.

The time span to pass all the exams I believe has been reduced, unlike the old UK ATPL which had to be passed in two years a failure in three sujects required one to sit the lot again.

If those standards were reintroduced the surplusof young fellows would soon dry up.

[itsbrokenagain]

Actually the old CAP 509 syllabus was much easier! There were less subjects and a lot lot lot less questions for the examiners to choose from.

The Oz ATPL theory will help a little, but its a walk in the park compared to the JAA system!

I have taught the CASA ATPL, the UK CAA ATPL and the JAA ATPL theory for the last 15 years. The old UK system ( still in use in parts of the world like Malaysia!) was great as we knew all the questions that were possible, you could learn it in 4 weeks by simply teaching the questions and a bit of knowledge. The current system is a nightmare, and they constantly change the syllabus and the questions!

Good luck, recommend OAT or more so Bristol GS for a course if you want to undertake this route. Do the pre exam brushup in Perth and the exams there , but make sure you can pass the medical first, not much harder than the initial Oz Class 1, but they are picky little buggers over there!

[Aussie]

Sounds like theres a variety of opinions out there...


On that note, anyone know how hard it is to convert your JAA to Aus ATPL?

Cheers

Aussie

[D.O.G]

I have twice asked for information on these courses from WAAC and, after nearly 2 months, I have given up on expecting a response.

[MBA747]

So what is MFA like? Did you teach the ATPL there?

[Boomerang]

Aussie, it's not hard, just costly in both time and money. You want to be reaaaaally sure of what you're doing. Having the WAAC available sounds like a good option, it will save you travelling to and from the UK for brush ups and exams. However not knowing the WAAC materials I can still only recommend Bristol Groundschool in the UK for distance learning. They certainly worked for me.

[Aussie]

Thanks Boomerang,

How long did it take you?

ANyone out there finish there JAA ATPLs with WAAC?

Cheers

[The Hedge]

Hi Aussie,

I am doing the JAA course with WAAC. I have 11 done out of 14. No one has done them all yet.

Are they hard??...Yes. But like anything else you put in the work you will get through it. You do however need discipline and if you start arsing around you will never get them done as you only have 18 months and 6 sittings to do all 14.

WAAC use course material from CATS in the UK which is fine to get you though. Its not as flash as the Bristol stuff but does the job all the same.

If you can’t pass the Oz ATPL by self study I would say the JAA ATPL self study course would be well out of your league.

If you had difficulty with with the AUS ATPL (apart from FLT Planning), you should have a good long think about JAA distance learning study.

[Aussie]

The Hedge,

Check your PMs..


Aussie

[300ER]

The old UK ATPL nav papers were not multi choice in fact they were essay type. Seeing I did them I would know. The fact you taught a course in 4 weeks says a lot for your knowledge and instruction. The modern ATPL is multi guess which allows amateurs to provide questions and learn answers by rote to pass the exam. I am glad you are flying corporate and not teaching,the profession is better of with guys like you out of it than pretending to know what your doing.

The ARB subjects were multi-choice, but that was not part of the ATPL it was part of the CPL.

[Boomerang]

The JAR exams took me about 18 months to complete. I had a couple of months break in the middle due to a new endorsement. I did the Aus ATPL back when you had to do all exams in a two day sitting. I found them harder because You had to know everything! for two days worth of exams. That said however the JAR exams want you to know even more, but the knowledge is divided into 14 exams with some topics being covered in multiple exams. Still very doable but as stated by someone else, you can't muck about.

Practical conversion was 2 sim sessions (one prep, one JAR ATPL skills test)

[Aussie]

Boomerang,

you said you did them in 18months. Can you do them in a yr?

Did you find some of the material in human factors and met ect to be similar to Aus?

Cheers

Aussie

[Boomerang]

If you read some of the forums on the JAR ATPL you will find that some people have done them in a year or less, even with distance learning. I couldn't have done it that quickly.

Yes some materials are the same, esp human biology parts and basics of weather.

[Aussie]

Thanks Boomerang,

Ill have to have a look into it.

Cheers

Aussie

[itsbrokenagain]

The quickest I saw them done was 1 month per 7 subjects, the guy then sat the 7 exams, took and did another 4-5 weeks study for the next 7 subjects, then sat the exams , about 3 months start to finish he took which was mainly due to fitting in the fixed exam dates the UK system uses.

This guy was a 737-400 check and training, about 15 000 hrs in his late 40's, highly motivated to take up a well paying high ranking job in a major carrier in Europe.

Depending on your experience you can do this too, its doable with motivation, but if you dont have some of the regulatory requirements you may be stuck for 10-12 weeks per 7 subjects as per the laid down minimum study hours of JAR land for the theory. Contact a school like more well known school like Bristol ( www.bgs.gs ) for a timeline for training based on your flight experience.

[RF00]

Preparation is definitely the key. The exams are a mixture of CPL and ATPL as you can bypass the 16 CPL/IR exams and do the ATPL. VFR and IFR comms are a giveaway if you do the feedback papers. The exams are not that hard individually, it is the volume of them,you end up sitting 7 and 7 or 8 and 6 to complete the 14 exams depending on where you do your study. I can't recommend Bristol GS highly enough. I did my distance learning through someone else whilst still in Australia and did my 2 week brush up courses with them and that's what got me through all of them first time. The cost overall is enormous and don't forget the flying training.

For the IR conversion you can do most of it in a sim but the aircraft (PA34) was 350 pounds an hour and the IR test fee is now 695 pounds i believe!!! Convert that to AUD and you will cry. Also there might be delays for weather for CPL conversion in the winter. If you want an air taxi/charter job make sure you look at he hour requirements of the CAA. They even charge an extra 95 quid to put single engine aeroplane on your multi CPL/IR licence. My estimates were way under what it all cost but it was worth it in the end. Remember also, if you fail one exam 4 times you loose all your previous exam credits and have to start again. PS don't agonise over how to do a compass swing too much (as I did) as they don't actually test it.

[Aussie]

RF00,

thanks for that. How well were you prepared for the exams from the course study? Whats the pass mark?

Did you find it difficult to sit so many exams at once, i mean do u remember it all? Compared to Aus where its just 1 at a time?

Cheers for info
Aussie

[RF00]

I went on price alone when choosing my course as the exchange rate was so bad. The course was covered to a good standard and the online exams were good. The brush up course is really just mountains of practice papers and 300ER is right about rote learning in that you do get seem to have seen a lot of very similar questions before when you sit the exam. I felt good before the exams, worried during the exams, not so confident after the exams and sure I had failed them all after waiting the two weeks it takes for them to send out the results. The exams are conducted in large halls like school exams of the past, with anything up to a hundred or more people sitting there looking worried. The law exams are closed book so you have to know how many crash axes, first aid kits need to be carried etc, etc. I hadn't done any study for a long time so I found it fun. It took me 18 months but I was working full time as well to pay for it.

[A37575]

It's all a bloody rip-off. From all reports airliners fly on automatic pilot from seconds after to lift off to landing and pilots are actively discouraged from flying the plane or even navigating it. With world wide GPS who needs Mercators Projections or interpretation of isotachs. So what's with 16 exams when nine tenths of the stuff pilots will never use?

[300ER]

A37575 You will find that any professional qualification you complete, requires that you are able to learn and pass exams well beyond the knowledge required for the day to day duties. If one did a four year engineering degree you would do four years of advanced mathematics and physics most of which one would not use on a day to day basis, the same thing applies for other professions.

As far as aviation is concerned before the French invented the JAA, the British ATPL was considered the most recognized license and the license to have. Only the people who could not pass the license exams or did a watered down version of it eg. Malaysian, Hong Kong etc, complained of its irrelevance.

As far as I am concerned the Mercator chart should be removed but perhaps introduce the Polar Stereographic and to make it a bit more demanding the Transverse Mercator. A lot of Trans Polar flights are in operation so I am sure someone could justify it. This would remove the rote learning and only those who are mentally capable will hold an ATPL.

[Aussie]

300ER,

Sounds like a good theory, but how many pilots out there would then have an ATPL?

Pilot shortages big time.

Aussie

[MBA747]

Well unfortunately the licences are easier to get, however more expensive. There will always be sufficient people who will pass the exams even if they were made more demanding.For those who can't become a plumber or painter.

[Aussie]

MBA747,

Well this is true. The expensive part i wont argue!

Aussie

[yowie]

I thought I heard that credits were given for certain experience,any truth?

[haughtney1]

Might as well as my bit......:ok:

I converted my NZ/OZ CPL (with ATPL theory) to the JAR's 3 years ago. It took me 9 months, mainly due to the first school I enrolled at going tits up, and then having to re-enroll elsewhere.
Distance learning was the way to go for me, I was able work and study. The toughest part I found was the sheer volume of work, the technical aspects were not particularly difficult, there is just so much of it.
Took the exams in 2 blocks of 7, passed them all with an average mark of 88%.
I used oxford aviations' course..a bit pricier but the results were worth it.

What ever you decide to do..make sure you do the research:ok:

[Aussie]

Haughtney1,

check your PMs

Aussie