EK: Lies...Damn Lies...and EK Management

[Charlie Murdoch]

DEC Salaries

Interesting...from the "Fleet Newsletter":

"...DEC's come in at a pay level of Dhs 28,000-32,000 per month based on experience, with the higher number being reserved for those with direct fleet experience..."

Congratulations to Mr. Ed for coming clean on this issue. However, on the "Rumour Buster" on the flight crew portal we find the following:

"I am happy to correct the rumour that you have heard. There are no 'various pay schemes'. The salary you quote is right (26210/- per month to be exact) but there are no additional "Professional Allowance" payments of any kind made to DECs. I hope that this dispels some of the wilder rumours that have been going around".

TCAS 21/2/06

Hmmm...looks like you've been caught out being somewhat economical with the truth TCAS.

"Be careful when you choose to lie...for that lie must remain truth forever more."

:mad:

[Yossarian]

Could it be that AS on the Rumour Buster was prior to the pay increase and Mr Ed after it? By my figures, the numbers would then be about right.

[Marooned]

I promised myself to stay away from this forum but recent events have made my blood boil...

We begin with TCAS assurances that DECs were not being paid more than the rest of us. This turns out to be an absolute LIE.

We continue with the abuse of the FOM to upgrade pilots out of seniority to the cost of over 20 pilots. It is a scandle that a document such as the FOM has been debased by the management to the extent that it has, a document that can be thrown at us when they need to and changed by them when they want to.They have cheated their 'colleagues' from the upgrades they deserve which, if they cannot be spared from the 330/340 fleet due to 'their' poor planning, they should at the very least be provided pass-over pay to compensate for the loss of earnings they will incur.

How can the management expect any respect from their staff when they lack any moral stature or professional ethics themselves? They do whatever they are told to do and have the audacity to patronise us with a half hearted explanation of why it can all be justified :yuk:

TCAS and Ed know damn well that this behaviour would never be accepted in their previous companies yet they have the temerity to look us in the eyes and lie.

[watertheflowers]

Ask me how I know...

Well, presumably you have applied to EK as a DEC and might well be joining them soon.

This ties in with the DEC thread that you started on this forum a few months ago that you very quickly deleted when one of your colleagues from Oz pointed out that you had made something of a career of jumping seniority lists.

No axe to grind, just observing.

[145qrh]

More lies " cant spare any MFF guys to go to Boeing",,,have a look at the guys on ground school for the 777 at the moment....Could have sworn I have flown with them on the 340....must be my eyes..Do the "management" think we are as stupid as we look? Do they think that we don't talk to each other?Do they think that showing little graphs make lying more acceptable? Do they think?????

Most, if not all of the guys off to 777 are 330/340, a few have been here 3 years so do not have recent command time, WTF ..

JUst had a look at the PORTAL, 10 guys either in or about to start grounschool for 777, all 340...enough to make you ?????

They seem to be pleased that the resignations have tailed off a bit, bet they are in for a shock when this latest masterstroke filters thro'

MR ED and TCAS....The Two Ronnie's of EK. :}

Maybe a letter to MR ED would help??, there must be a FOM extract that says "In the face of being caught out on a complete untruth, just deny everything"

[specialrider987]

Charlie and friends... it is a bit depressing isn't it? :ugh:

[watertheflowers]

Wizofoz.

Bit touchy, aren't you?

Making something of a career of deleting your post's as well. Lucky that I quoted the pertinent bit.

EK guys, look out for an Ozzie from Orangeland with heaps of European narrowbody time joining as a DEC this summer.

[Check 'Six']

1) Do not offer any of our OFF DAYS at all. Gents, if we do this for just two months, our T and C's will have to change for the better. We are expected to be flexible and understanding at ALL TIMES, whilst the company offers absolutely NO FLEXIBILITY in return. STOP DOING THEM FAVOURS ON YOUR DAYS OFF. LET's think long term and not for instant gratification. ALL IT WILL TAKE IS TWO MONTHS. THEN WATCH WHAT HAPPENS!!!

2) I personally asked Stealey about the DEC pay, in front of 10 other colleagues. He lied. So, instead of getting angry and upset, it is simple. Fly to rule. Discretion = NO. DAYS OFF = NO. UNDERSTANDING and pleading from Management = NO.

3) SALARY INCREASE = YES
4) JUMP SEAT = YES
5) COMMUTING STYLE ROSTERS = YES (I am not a commuter, yet. But would like to see the block days off like in the past, returned.)
6) BY PASS PAY for our FO's = YES

And I'm sure there are more points to add on this list.

Now it's time for management to CHECK SIX.

[Twinpacks]

Six, couldn't agree with you more. But check out SM's June roster! This is a newly upgraded airbus captain that has been here for at least 3 1/2 years.

Sadly, we are our own worst enemies!:(

[Zomp]

Nothing will change here to the better, how many guys really walked off the 201 and how many went into discretion? I am sorry to say there are too many w*****s and too many managment wannabies here (did I mention the guys from far south who talk a lot at the bar but then have their tails between there legs).

[sandflake]

Interesting that the resignations are quoted in percentages. 3.7% down from 4.5%. Fact is we now have over 1400 pilots vs. somewhere around 1100 a year ago. If my math is correct, that's 51 this year vs. 49 last, at a time EK can ill afford to loose a single pilot. Also know of 3 more resignations since that letter came out so that would make it closer to 3.9% for this year.

[Fart Master]

7 leaving in June:D

[captainjohndo]

Actually the numbers are a lot better. I realy do not see a problem.

Only one pilot who joined on June 7th 1994 has left. This is less than 0.1%.

Only 2 Pilots who have joined with no prior Command Time and are here more than 3 years but less than 4 have left.

No pilots who have got their Command and have less than 500 hours on type as P1 have left.

I think I should be up for a mabrouk award, since these numbers are great.

I love the saying if you cannot convince them confuse them.

I am sure the ED numbers came up in a management meeting, when they were asked to explain 53 resignations in six months, and the response was that it was only 3.7%.

I think the writing is on the wall now. The T and C s will continue to slide and I just cannot imagine what this place is going to be like when the good years and the expansion ends.....

Sorry Check Six, I do not share your views....

[Warlock2000]

CaptJohn,

Had a chuckle at your post, pretty close to the truth I'd say.

You don't agree with Check Six, that's a fair statement and you're entitled to your own view. I don't know how long you've been around, but T&C's have gradually been degraded over the years. What in your opinion can we as a pilot group do to make things better? Talking at pilot meetings doesn't help.... :ugh:

[captainjohndo]

Hi War,

I have been here for 12 years, and I have never seen before such an unrest and movement of people. Two of my friends have just resigned, and I am thinking, what am I doing here. I am seriously thinking of going back to OZ and getting a commuting job as well for about the same amount of money overall but a lot better quality of life for the family. Had I been on the Bus I would have gone to Jet*.

The reason why I do not share Check Six's views is because I have been flying with the new blood who has been coming from South America and they are very content. It seems EK has found another place to get their pilots.

I am not going to get into the discussion of are they suitable, are they enough, are they the solution, the truth is that they are getting more money here than they were back home, they are a lot safer here than they were back home, and they are enjoying the honeymoon period with the new four wheel drives and the hotel clubs.

It will be a few years before they also discover what we have, and by then it will be too late for those guys, as yet more new blood will have joined. The 777 has been flying a lot of late, and I am now completely and utterly shattered...

I do not know what the solution is, and that is the big problem with most of us, we do not know what we have to do to change the declining trend in our quality of life, our family's quality of life, and our savings due to the rising costs and drop in the US $.

[alwayzinit]

Gents I know that I am not entitled to comment on your T&Cs as I am not in EK. However I have been in the business all my life as 3rd generation pilot.

T&Cs are going down the swanny in just about all 1st world airlines, BA lost their final salary scheme years ago and general erosion has continued across the board since then.

In europe all airlines now are run by accountants who assume that the cheapest option is the best, when has the cheapest been the best solution?:ugh:

Whilst it is a bitter pill to swallow all airlines are in the business to make money and they don't care how. In reality there is no way for any individual to change the system, in a ideal world every brother pilot would stand up and be counted but that will never happen as long we all have individual problems of our own mortgages , boats , school fees etc to be frank I would not risk my kids future or my house cowardly but true.:=

My solution ... if they are not asking my opinion on a policy change chances are they don't want it! So fly the jet but leave the airline at the garden gate when you get home otherwise it will eat you up like a cancer.

As the old saying goes "life is like a sh#t sandwich, the more bread you have the less sh#t you get to eat relativley".

Fly safe

Alwayz

[Marooned]

Always...

The problem is that in a expat job like this you are surrounded by the job even at home.

I would also suggest that even at BA, and I am aware of the problems, the company could not have lied and cheated the way EK are able to do.

I have flown with new pilots recently who say they are generally content, their argument being that it is not as bad as their previous airline (no Europeans, Canadians & Malaysians mainly). The irony is that many years ago we were saying the same. As the decline continues their threshold will also be reached, where EK becomes as bad as their old job.

As sandflake points out, Eds 'creative' statistics indicate a constant attrition rate, not a declining one.

Managements coping strategy: "If we don't like it leave', well guess what, we're leaving.

[sandflake]

Wait...... I think I get this now. So if at the end of last year we had 1100 pilots and they're all pissed off, we make things worse to get some of the high paid whiners to quite. Hier 400 new pilots from places worse than this... giving us 400-500 new guys out of 1600, or so, by the end of the year. If out of the original 1100 there's now 1000, a 9.1% reduction, plus 500 new pilots who are markedly happier?? so what's that 31.3% :confused: ....... now let's say 7.6% of those people become discontented in the next 6 months that's net 23.7%. So now instead of 100% of the pilots unhappy it's only 76.3%.... hang on...... moral is IMPROVING!

[kingpost]

Sandflake

I need to correct to there, morale and motivation are two words not in their vocabulary.

[Fart Master]

CaptJon, I beleive the saying is..............'If you can't intrigue them with your intelligence then baffle them with your bullsh*t':ok:

[145qrh]

Never trust any manager that issues worthless apology's..What does it cost him.... "**** all"

Never trust any manager that quotes percentages to cover up numbers.

Never trust any manager that love graphs which show nothing, but look pretty.

Never trust any manager that when caught out on a lie, lies again and just ignores the fact he had been caught...true politician..Maybe a name change is in order ...

TCAS is now Chief Accountant
Mr ED is now Chief Politician Fleets

MR ED, your honeymoon period is over..and I think that I would agree with many other...you have been found wanting...:{

[sandflake]

Just to play devil's advocate.... ED never lied. AS never updated the truth. ( those dots are periods ) Moral is of a percentage that comes up at managment meetings and tax increases. What's motivation?:confused: Always remember......

"Trying is the first sept towards failure".............H S

[145qrh]

"ED never lied" ??

Which of the following is true....

You must be in Emirates 3 years before being considered for a command..

We cannot release any 340 pilots because we are so short, it will be 330 only guys who go to the Boing....

Future commands will depend on uptake of DEC's who take the 30 pieces of silver on offer...OK that is true , but not what our last FCN on upgrades stated.

So 3 year pilots are last on the list for commands.....DEC followed by Accelerated then the rest of you useless rabble may be considered..


I am all for a devils advocate, opposing views are welcome too...

We also have a good idea why they are in the mess we are in, not helped by ED stating that EK terms and conditions remain competitive and still attract the quality we are looking for....
Says a lot about the quality we are looking for ..eh, amigo:=

"Do not try,do" ...Karate Kid

[sandflake]

sorry........... just in regard to the pay issues that came down prior to his arrival. The other bits, well.......... he's fallen nicely into step.

[mini cooper]

Has anyone actually seen Mr Ed or has any picture been published yet in the myriad of useless company PR newsletters, I wouldn't know him even if he bumped into me unless of course he's in a Stetson and cowboy boots!!!

[White Knight]

I've met the guy - he was in a suit. I guess the cowboy boots and stetson are for that dumbass texan 411a:}

[upndownagain]

From what I heard Mr ED didnt LIE : " no 340 guys will transition "

He just didnt know any better........

They tried to take the 330 guys who fit (todays) policy but were very limited and had no choice but to take 340 guys, or go WAY out of seniority.


Anyone else hear the same?

[brabazon2]

Have they taken any MFF guys (requiring a full transition) for B777 transition yet?

[radnav]

B2
Yes they have taken several MFF guys who require the full B777 transition......have spoken with a couple of them already on course.

[145qrh]

So far all of the guys going to the 777 are MFF who now meet accelerated requirements. 15 at the last count, all out of seniority.

A poke in the eye for all the 3 year pilots, because the company/management now has more faith in these guys not to fail the transition than Joe Blo who has served his time and put up with the BS.

Strange logic,but from Local management easy to understand." He has command before therfore he better pilut"...what it means is guys who came from small(ish) airlines got quick commands, get preference over Joe Blo from Alitialia, SAS etc , in other words large companies with great training and tough selection just long time to command.

Most trainers would say that they are just as capable and no more or less likely to fail...Do training records mean zip in this company

[Marooned]

Training Records, T & Cs, DECs. You name it...it all means zip.

[bus canuck]

From what I heard Mr ED didnt LIE : " no 340 guys will transition "

He just didnt know any better....

What is that, the ENRON defence? (Not guilty by reason of incompetence.)

[Mr Mugabe]

I remember reading a post from someone who said something along the lines.... "I have two buckets one for the sh1t and another for money. When either is full it's time to move on". I came here for lifesyle and hopefully to save some money! Just the other day I went through my log book (now I wonder what made me do that!) and was horrified how my roster has changed over the years and how much harder we are working. Management and the bean counters must be patting themselves on the back at what a good job they are doing with utilising their resources. It will not change and I totally agree with other posts saying things like "we are our own worst enemy" but they, management, rely on the greed factor.

B2
Yes they have taken several MFF guys who require the full B777 transition......have spoken with a couple of them already on course.

In fact 12 guys with past command experience are on course as we speak and the others have been put on hold so not as to drain the MMF too much.

If you want to get an idea how things are progressing just look at the FCC numbers and how fast they increase over a given time. Funny though some of them have locks but no names or rank?

My buckets weeellllll...... the money one has shrunk to a thimble and the sh1t one is now a 44 gal. drum. Sad but true. As I said we are our own worst enemies.

[Tail Rota]

Hi Guys

from what I have seen happening around here lately its anybodys guess as to the next move the company is going to make.

we have got guys being acclerated from the 330/340 fleet to the 777. the CP Airbus resigning, upgrades being delayed, then back on again, Trainer Brian and all his personalities becoming sim guys, DEC and F/O recruitment drives in the US, UK, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa, Wall street journal articles pulishing how great it is, sims being sourced in other countries for training, oustside contractors being sort to check/ train in the sim at much higher rates than doing it in house.

What does this tell you:cool: mmmmmmm

TR:ok: