Couple RT questions/opinions

[coodem]

1. Zone crossing/overfly/transit. Often I will go out flying I will follow VOR's, which usually take you over airfields, Now I have no problem with the standard radio calls, but often I will just fly out with no where to go, turn around and come back the same way, land at the same place I departed. Now I know we should keep RT short and sweet. But I find it very long winded having to say departed EGTR, OVERFLY EGSG, overfly EGMC, then do it all backwards, finishng off with destination EGTR

Could I just say departed EGTR, destination EGMC, even though I dont intend to land there? If so what do you do on the way back? What do others suggest.

I don't mind doing it properly, but am worried I clog up the radio and confuse ATC

2. I have heard from others that a lot of controllers don't like to be told what pressure setting you are on, as it might confuse others listening in. Most times you will be a few mb out, so it makes no real sense, if they are going to tell you (I understand it can be argued that they could work out your correct altitude, if they knew your current alt on what ever pressure setting/alt you gave them)

Any comments welcome

[foxmoth]

I would normally say "on a flight EGTR to EGTR, routing EGSG,EGMC" (using the names though, not the ICAO designators - and even if not using the names I would give the TPs as VORs rather than airfields).:ok:

[Dr Eckener]

Miss out anything historical

[IO540]

My CAA RT examiner told me to say as little as possible to as few people as possible. I think he was right, but I would expand on that to say there is little point in talking to anybody unless they can offer a useful service, and in practice that means radar.

So, non-radar I don't talk to. Equally I won't overfly some such airfield at 2100ft AGL :O

Conversely I do try to talk to any radar service.

The info passed should contain just the part of the route that is relevant to them. That means avoiding waypoints already passed - unless the most recent one of them is essential to get across the routing. As for forward waypoints, I give 2 or 3 max. Plus of course dep & dest but those are in any initial radio call anywa (except following a handover).

[rodan]

We atco's generally like our strips to be accurate, so your actual point of departure, destination, and turning points please. It also saves us the embarrassment of handing you over to (in your case) EGMC having told them you are inbound to them (Huh? Inbound to us? We have no details) only to have them hand you back to us 10 mins later going the other way.

[LowNSlow]

If you are just going for a bimble about why talk to anybody? Just plan your trip to avoid overflights and / or conflicts with anybody's airspace. Trundle around your local area practising stalls, steep turns and PFLs instead of getting worked up about talking to somebody.

Most of my flights start off with talking to Luton Radar (our strip is inside their zone) and then calling them when I want to get back to the tea and biccies! Nobody else involved and it can be wonderful just to faff about going nowhere. :ok:

[Droopystop]

Personally I avoid VORs if at all possible because there are so many people doing the same as you. Also some airfields are busy enough on the radio without me butting in. Of course if I plan to transit close to an ATZ it goes without saying that I would contact them by way of courtesy.

An altitude passed over the radio in the initial contact is useless without the QNH set on your altimeter being passed as well. I am in the habit of passing the Altimeter setting with every altitude report. If it is correct (which it should be after initial contact) then there can be no confusion to other pilots.

[englishal]

I would say:

"GABCD Gulfstream 5 from EGLL to EGLL on a VFR navex around the southwest, 10 miles west at 2000' request..<zone transit from VRP to VRP> <Radar infomation service> < FIS> ....." (or whatever)

They'll normally then come back and ask you what your next turning point is.

[Flik Roll]

I always use the term 'Navex' routing via if I am not intending on landing, and 'En-route' if i do intend to land. Seems to work everytime :ok:

[aluminium persuader]

Callsign - type - point of departure - destination - position - alt & pressure - next turning point - type of service requested.
Please note: "Point of departure" means the very last place you were on the ground. Some pilots (helos in particular) seem to think stopping somewhere to pick up, drop off or have a cup of tea doesn't count. Likewise, "destination" is the next place you'll touch the ground.
It's important to be accurate if you want us to be able to find you when you've crashed!
Type of service (outside controlled airspace) is a choice of flight information, radar information or radar advisory. Check in the AIP to see what you get for your money.
I'd be perfectly happy with "Earls Colne to Earls Colne. Up the coast to Lowestoft & back again" for an example of a return wander.
My best advice, though, would be to visit a local ATC unit & have a good look at a flight progress strip. Make it the kind of unit you most often work, so it has as much relevance as possible. If you're in Bucks then maybe Coventry or Cambridge. I'd give Luton a miss cos I think their radar is done from LATCC now. Don't forget, we don't bite & it's in our interest to help.
ap

[DFC]

XYZ (Unit), GABCD request (FIS, RIS, RAS, Traffic information, Airfield information)

GABCD XYZ(Unit) pass your message;

GABCD

is a C172

From ABCD To ABCD

Position XYZ, Altitude 3000ft

Routing

Request

The above is what you want. If you can not remember the format then print it on your kneeboard and if necessary fill in the gaps before making the initial call. After a while you will not need the prompt at all.

Remember to keep a good lookout.

Regards,

DFC

PS CAP413 is the reference you need to read for UK flying.

[bookworm]

We atco's generally like our strips to be accurate, so your actual point of departure, destination, and turning points please. It also saves us the embarrassment of handing you over to (in your case) EGMC having told them you are inbound to them (Huh? Inbound to us? We have no details) only to have them hand you back to us 10 mins later going the other way.

I think the key to routing detail, as rodan hints, is whether or not coordination is expected.

If you're giving a call to a LARS controller and are expecting to be handed seamlessly from one to another on a 200 mile trip, it's worth being specific about the routing ahead. The detail may be used to select the next appropriate unit for you, and it should be passed on -- though there is an aspect of Chinese whispers: I got promoted from a Twin Com to a Seneca by St Mawgan yesterday, and it apparently stuck, several stations down the line -- I was quite hoping to be a Cheyenne by Cambridge. ;)

By contrast, if you're calling an airfield you happen to be overflying for traffic info, they're really not interested in your turning points after you've left the immediate area.

[drauk]

I second what Bookworm said. I think it's a question of applying a bit of thought to what is actually required rather than following the list printed on your kneeboard. Whilst the information is standardised in CAP413 it clearly doesn't make sense to follow it to the letter every single time. Who you are, where you are and what you want is a good starting point.

If you're flying from Elstree to the east coast and back, Stapleford radio don't need to know anything about your route other than you're from Elstree eastbound. They don't need your precise heading either - if you're from Elstree and heading east your heading is going to be about 90 give or take 20 and what would they do with the extra info if they had it?

My RT examiner chastised me for using words like 'currently', 'overhead', 'we are' etc. Clearly it doesn't make a huge difference in terms of transmission time or comprehension so not worth getting hung up about, but it does make your RT sound snappy, efficient and more professional. Thinking about it 'currently overhead' is particularly daft (and don't get me started on 'at this time' - do airline cabincrew get a bonus every time they use this phrase - I heard it three times in one sentence on a recent US trip).

So putting it altogether:

'G-XXXX is a PA28 out of Elstree destination Elstree currently 3000 feet on QNH 1023 currently overhead the Lea Valley, via Stapleford, Southend, Clacton, Southend, Stapleford. We are requesting traffic information'

becomes:

'G-XXXX PA28 Elstree to Elstree, at Lea Valley, 3000 feet on 1023, eastbound, request traffic information'

or even:

'G-XXXX PA28 Elstree Elstree, Lea Valley, 3000 feet 1023, eastbound, request traffic information'

Mind you, whatever you say to Stapleford they still seem to call you sir in reply, which is nice, unless you're a woman.

[NinjaBill]

Why do you include a pressure setting eith your transmission, one of the first things that the ATCO is going to as you to do is change it.

[drauk]

Why do you include a pressure setting eith your transmission, one of the first things that the ATCO is going to as you to do is change it.

Because having only flown five miles since you set the QNH there is a distinct possibility it hasn't changed and if it hasn't Stapleford won't give it to you and you save that and having to acknowledge it. Again, it depends on the specifics of the scenario.

[Fuji Abound]

One other point - you mention a zone transit - get that bit in first

- G-XXXX requesting zone transit,

then follow other suggestions.

If you want the transit it tells the controller exactly what to expect when he calls you back to take your details.

[coodem]

Thanks for all your opinions. It does clear things up, and has given me a few idea's. I feel RT is real important and know that is one of my weakness's. I know all the theory, I understand it, I remember it all. But I find I'm scared of it. I guess that is because it is all new to me, I want to make sure I get it all right from the beginning. Usually I fly around if they are busy, but always try to go through if not much going on. I find Stapleford very relaxed, maybe that is because it has been quiet when ever I go through. Next week I will attempt going through Luton, but will take an experienced pilot with me. Just in case I don't quite follow what they are telling me.

But I guess like everything, the nerves will soon go away, and it will all come natural. Just got to keep on practising

[Leezyjet]

I second that Coodem.

I learnt to fly in South Africa from a controlled airport, and the ATC there is really simple, tower, approach, area and thats it - oh and the unmanned atc frequencies outside CAS, non of this RAS/RIS/FIS etc.

Over here though, its so confusing about who to speak to, when, and what for which makes me a bit scared of it all.

I've done a few flights around the South East to get used to it - including a lap of London from EGLK-EGLK though to get used to it, but I'm still not confident.

I know what to say, but in SA they don't have all these services that we have here so I'm not always sure what to ask for and from whom.

:)

[Whopity]

Put simply:

WHO are you
WHERE are you
WHAT do you want

I never ceased to be amazed at the number of pilots I hear who state everywhere they are intending to go, with ATC having no idea where any of these places are; and failing to State WHERE they are, or WHAT they want.

[Julian]

WHO are you
WHERE are you
WHAT do you want


Here here!
It astounds me how some pilots launch into War & Peace and what they had for lunch and with the classics "urmmmm......arrrrrrr......doh.....standby....." when the above is clear, simple and concise. If they want anything extra you will be asked for it.

The other thing is before you go all verbose to tx:

"XYZ, G-ABCD, Request."

It gets ATC attention and stops you launching into something if they are busy and you having to repeat it all again clogging up the airwaves.

J.

[IO540]

with ATC having no idea where any of these places are

That's a difficult one.

We are taught to navigate visually, by reference to terrain features, villages, lakes, etc.

How can ATC be expected to know these places? I have very often heard this on the radio; some reference to some village. It is often a waste of everybody's time.

ATC reinforces this by requiring one to report at some VRP (even if the arrival is clearly navigating IFR, via intersections/navaids, and may have even requested a practice ILS) but then at least the VRP should be listed in the AIP entry for that airfield (which doesn't mean it's easy to find...).

This is one big reason why fully-IFR flight is so much less stressful than VFR. You don't somebody suddenly asking you to report at the "Nokia Factory" or whatever.

[Fuji Abound]

Where ever you are most of the "traffic" is likely to be local. If you state where you are, the locals should have a pretty good idea, as hopefully will AT - but I agree those en route, not familiar with the area may not - certainly without looking at their map.

However by referencing your position to VRPs or even some other clear visual feature everyone stands a better chance. For example, whilst I cant remember whether Herne Bay is a VRP for Manston, tracking one mile offshore, abeam Herne Bay, tells everyone where you are. In other words try not to use obscure visual features such as the Nokia factory which probably looks like every other factory to the uniniated!

[DFC]

This is one big reason why fully-IFR flight is so much less stressful than VFR. You don't somebody suddenly asking you to report at the "Nokia Factory" or whatever.

In other words try not to use obscure visual features such as the Nokia factory which probably looks like every other factory to the uniniated!

Fully IFR as opposed to?

The Nokia factory is published and clearly marked on the charts.

One does not have to see the factory to know where it is. There is a bloody big airfield very close and a motorway and another smaller airfield and several other features that one can use to locate the VRP.....................unless one is struggling to navigate and prodding the GPS to try and get it to tell you where the factory is.


Reminds me of the Tomtom navigator ad - Fuji, Fuji, is that the VRP ahead - ????, Fuji Fuji, I have a zone ahead who do I call - ??????, Fuji Fuji the GPS it taking an age to fiddle with, was that flash an aircraft passing close by?

Basic simple VFR avigation in an area with a host of visual features should not be a problem to so called "real pilots" should it?

------------

Remember that the ATCO doing radar at XYZ approach most probably will not be a local and may not know much more than the locations commonally used i.e. VRPs and the locations they drive through on the way to work. Thus it is always best to reference location to a VRP or Navigation Aid.

Don't forget that England has many places with the same name (sometimes more than 1 in the same county!)

Regards,

DFC

[IO540]

The Nokia factory is published and clearly marked on the charts.

Which really helps in identifying it.....

A lot of VRPs are very hard to identify, but of course the locals never see the problem.

[Fuji Abound]

"The Nokia factory is published and clearly marked on the charts."

I havent got the faintest idea where the Nokia factory is - I assumed it was a hypothetical feature.

I guess if it is published then it must be clearly marked so there is a good chance we are likely to be able to spot it.

However, it always use to intrigue me the pilots trying to find the testing ground en route to the PFA rally - it seemed a pretty good feature to me, but many find other wise.

"Basic simple VFR avigation in an area with a host of visual features should not be a problem to so called "real pilots" should it?"

So true - but we know who to blame for it being a problem - the instructors.

"Reminds me of the Tomtom navigator ad - Fuji, Fuji, is that the VRP ahead - ????, Fuji Fuji, I have a zone ahead who do I call - ??????, Fuji Fuji the GPS it taking an age to fiddle with, was that flash an aircraft passing close by?"

DFC - you must be confused, Tomtom is something we use on the roads not in the air. You are not using it in the air are you and trying to read the raod signs at the same time. You need a helicopter for that I find.