Emirates pilots no longer allowed to fly the plane. [Archive]

Oblaaspop

8th Jun 2006, 10:42

Sorry Warlock, gotta agree with "line ops is not considered the time to practice handling skills".

I think you will find this is the same in many airlines around the world (certainly was the case at the last 2 British carriers I was with).

I for one don't feel the need to "practice" on the line, and I think most of us have the experience to be able to cope if all the automatics "dropped off line". KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid).

Having said that, I do disagree with the other 92,000 stupid policies!!!!!:cool:

Cheers

Warlock2000

8th Jun 2006, 11:19

I understand that there are times when flying the plane through the automatics makes perfect sense (long night flights, crappy wx etc) and is highly recommended.

The problem with the new policy is that now even on a CAVOK day, during daylight hours the pilot is no longer permitted to fly the plane, and flying the plane is by definition of job description definitely not practicing handling skills. :=

That would be steep turns and stalls out in the GF.

Muttley Crew

8th Jun 2006, 11:25

What about the new joiners and more-so, the cadets.... first time they fly the jet they have 300 paying punters down the back who have no idea they are being used to fund a training flight...... oh my God!! Let's get a grip here, please or this time next year it'll be AutoLand Only.

Rumour has it this policy emphasis was a reaction to some DECs who "didn't do it like this in my old airline..."? (Yes something else to blame DECs for :p , but I did say it was a rumour and like it or not, true or not, it is out there doing the rounds.)

Me, I think it's because some of the guys are sub-standard and can't fly for sh!t. The same reason everyone is so afraid of flying a VISUAL frigging APPROACH, for fcuk's sake. And we weren't allowed to do them for such a long time. The laughing stock of Sydney ATC where Independent VISUAL Approachs applied to everyone except us.
I for one don't feel the need to "practice" on the line, and I think most of us have the experience to be able to cope if all the automatics "dropped off line".

Having seen the way SOME of the guys hand-fly an ILS intercept, lurching and heaving around, following the F/D, some practice would definitely not go astray.

IAS slightly low during climb-out but the F/D says pitch up so that's what they do, only to have it come straight-back down as soon as the directed B/A is reached....:rolleyes: Stuff like that. You know??

Capt Basil Brush

8th Jun 2006, 12:45

Muttley, regarding the F/D, have you ever noticed how the Automatics fly the aircraft?

I dont fly the 777, but the Boeings I have flown, when the AP is controlling the aircraft - the F/D is absolutley nailed virtually all the time, spot-on.

Watching how the automatics do it, can teach you a lot about how to smoothly and accurately fly the aircraft. :ok:

chinawladi

8th Jun 2006, 14:36

Most CFIT were accomplished with the FD spot on. Automatics don't fix everything.
But this is not the issue. The issue is that too many at EK get sweaty hands if
you take away FD/AP/FMS over the airport at 5000ft and tell them to go and land.
Watching some fly into SEZ rwy13 with CB's in Jepp's way is scarey and revealing.
Such policies have been among the early signs of upcoming big one's, just as the
JNB incident. It unveals the incompetence of selection and training or their
complacency facing the cost cutting mania leading to dismanteling the bearly
acceptable standard that has once been established.
Just wait for the procedures on the A380: 20 miles final, fully configured on
final approach speed, only autoland and autobrake, max taxispeed 10kts. The FO
will definitely remain just to fill out the voyage report ....

McGreaser

8th Jun 2006, 20:47

Automation will always be there but in the "unlikely" event that it becomes unavailable then manual fying will save your life. But if you haven't been practising it or tried it then you could find your self in a big tin of soup with no meat :ugh: whenn you are called upon to fly manually. Besides nothing beats flying an a/c manually especially without a F/D on a clear day. That's why we are called pilots not programmers..................................

411A

8th Jun 2006, 23:21

So very true, McGreaser, absolutely!
The number of younger guys that can't fly a standard visual approach, is quite astounding, from my experience...watching from the LHS.:sad:

Muttley Crew

8th Jun 2006, 23:31

I thought you were watching from a comfortable armchair these days, at the old pilots' home.... :zzz:

Bit hard to get excited about FOs when you're worried about spitting out ya falsies or filling ya diapers....:uhoh:

"First Officer Bloggs, is this lump on my neck bigger than it was last week....???"

Stormy Petrel

9th Jun 2006, 00:14

411A

Are you the same 411A that thinks pilots are over paid louts? Now we are supposed to fly for a living? If we are so loutish, then why try to fly. Lets just push the buttons. FMA says 'CAT III dual' no probs until - OH NO - No flare, or lack of 'FLARE' call by FO. Big bang. Oopps.

DHC8-FO

9th Jun 2006, 01:17

For you guys that agree with this policy about only using automation (silly in my book), arent you going to miss actually "flying" the airplane? In my daily routine, ill usually handfly all the way to cruise and usually all the way back down (unless something would justify otherwise---unusually busy airspace, weather, etc) I dont know about the company procedures for many of the worlds airlines, but i wasnt aware that they are mandating using automation at all times unless something else is needed. Thats a shame for pilots, slowly but surely companies and aircraft builders are removing pilots out of the picture. I understand newer technology has its place in todays world of ever crowding airspace, weather, etc, but still.......arent we all flying these planes because, well, we enjoy flying? If i wanted to program a box I would have studied computer science. I guess ill have to accept the changes, or just keep getting jobs with second rate operators flying yesterdays technology.

This is why the newer generation of aircraft being produced interest me very little. I could care less about how techno-crazy the newest A380 or dreamliner is. Just give me round gauges and smokey engines. Someone made a good point about the cadet pilots that are being hired. You will have to excuse my lack of knowledge on the subject of cadet hiring, etc, but how is a guy who goes from light cessna's/pipers directly to a 737 supposed to learn to be a pilot if they are required by company policy to engage the autopilot at 1500' and not disengage it untill 200' or even make it autoland? Its going to be a not so good day when the captain has a heart attack and the 400hr. FO has to actually put their hands on the yoke and make things happen.

sunchaser

9th Jun 2006, 01:31

Using automation during marginal weather, operating in high density airports, non normal conditions or when fatigue maybe a factor just makes good common sense. However implementing a blanket SOP which mandates the use of autopilot during all phases of flight is not a good practice from a safety point of view in my opinion.

Typically wide body operators fly longer sectors resulting in fewer take off and landings per month. In my company our FO's may only get one or two sectors per month and spend the rest of the time dozing for dollars as we operate with augmented crews most of the time. So i encourage them to hand fly when conditions permit inorder to refresh there handling skills. We all know the autopilot can fly. Infact our MEL authorizes the crew to fly up to 8 hours with no autopilos although i would dread ever having to do that.

And i can personally say that my handling skills have deteriated over the years flying a 744, infact we refer to the 400 as a retirment acft..But then again i'm not the "Ace of the Base".

critical winge

9th Jun 2006, 04:31

One thing to do when you have had an engine failure is TO GET THE AP IN and THANK GOODNESS for the AP!! These jets aren't small flying club flyarounds and shouldn't be flown like so. Everyone who gets into an airliner has paid for the ticket as a contract to get them from points A to B as safely as possible. In my vote, (although hand flying should be practised IN THE SIM or UNDER SUPERVISION TRI etc in aircraft) whenever I have any of my family flying on any commercial jet, I would always want Maverick and Ice Man at the front to allow the automatics do it and them monitor those. Should the backup of all the redundant systems fail, only then would I appreciate a hand flown ILS to minimums, in a high crosswind, be flown by some boywonder who never made fighter school or NASA because he didn't have the required handling skills.

MOTTO of the global airlines SAFETY FIRST!!!!!!!!!!!

CW:hmm:

Icebreaker

9th Jun 2006, 06:05

mensaboy

9th Jun 2006, 07:12

There is nothing wrong with automation but I think we have it completely wrong here. We should be mandated to hand fly once a month opportunity permitting, taking into account things such as ATC, weather etc.

When exactly are we supposed to practice our skills then? Certainly not in the sim sessions. We are occasionally tasked with flying one approach manually but that is to be assessed, not just for practice. So, in other words, we never practice.

From my experience, those pilots who occasionally hand fly during appropriate conditions are those pilots who maintain there ability to do so effectively. The opposite is true for those who never fly manually.

As for other airlines.... I have worked for 2 that allowed if not encouraged pilots to occasionally manually fly the airbus.

I believe this is a potentially disastrous policy that is designed for the lowest common denominator.... ie. those pilots who typically botch up the approach when attempting to manually fly.

The MEL should now be amended to state that autothrust is required prior to dispatch. Otherwise we are now expected to fly the aircraft under circumstances that we are neither trained for or ever practice. Madness I say...

bman0429

9th Jun 2006, 07:17

Couldn't agree more with Crit Winge.
The modern day jets are designed to be flown with the automation, with pilots 'supervising' and programming. Why should the operation's overall safety level be degraded just to satisfy the pilot's desire for personal satisfaction. You've just got to compare the human errors when hand flying with 'george' operating - eg. level busts.
You guys that want to hand fly all the time, why not go to your local flying club and hire a Cessna? Or find a job on a 727? Nobody is forcing you to fly a heavy, modern jet.

So lemme get this straight, you think that hand flying an approach is less safe than the autopilot?! WTF?!

If you spent anytime flying for a commuter in A/C that had no autopilot you might have a higher opinion of what pilots actually do. Which is fly airplanes. Think 8 approaches to mins everyday all day.This arguement is totally inane!

Every pilot in the room say it with me now " I am paid to FLY airplanes! Every system in the aircraft is to ultimately AUGEMENT my skill!"

Remember for many decades there were airplanes with no autopilots or dare I say it FMSs and the pilots managed to operate aircraft safely. GO read Fate is The Hunter sometime.

It seems like many have adopted the idea that a good pilot is someone who can prattle off obscure tidbits about a particular aircraft system or radar wave lengths. That's way off we can all stand to continually excerise our skills. Its not bloody training!

As an aside doe EK conduct IOE or some type of line qualification for their intial pilots?

Icebreaker

9th Jun 2006, 07:45

McGreaser

9th Jun 2006, 09:33

To the advocates of automation as opposed to manual flying what happens when due to the nature of the problem all autopilots are inop (e.g on the B767 loss of left ac bus) ? Do you let you pax know that you can't fly the a/c due to limited manual flying skills if at all or have no experience in flying an a/c due to company procedure compounded by lack of practice ? Or you would show the a/c "who is flying who". Whilst the advent of automation has brought about a huge increase in safety and reduction in workload in the industry, ignoring the basis of the profession which is to "pilot" an a/c is even more dangerous.

Rushing to stick in the autopilot when you lose an engine whilst being the best and the most recommended solution usually happens when you when you have the a/c in trim. I stand to be corrected here but trying to engage the a/p with an out of trim a/c will result in a even more dangerous situation. Actually manual flying should be encouraged in times of low workload (ie uncongested airspace) and when wx permits:ok:

Most pax when they see us going into the a/c believe in their entirety that we actually fly the plane hands on. Try telling them that when the going gets tough we will be found wanting and see how many will fly.

bman0429

9th Jun 2006, 11:00

bman,
actually it's not only me that thinks it's safer for an autopilot to do an approach. If you have access to air safety databases you too would see. Have you ever studied Human Factors - such as in JAR FCL?
Autopilots don't get tired after a 14 hour tour of duty for example.
And yes, I spent 12 years flying commuter aircraft, some without autopilots....but we ARE NOT talking about commuter aircraft are we! Maybe in your commuter airline crewroom, you 'FLY' the aircraft, however in large aircraft it's 'operate' - geez....on FBW's the pilot isn't even directly connected to the flight controls!

Icebreaker,
My first reaction to your post was an angry rant about you being an arrogant A$$. Comments like" Maybe in your commuter airline crewroom, you 'FLY' the aircraft, however in large aircraft it's 'operate' - geez"

But I thought better of it!

Point one:
You assume that I work for a commuter airline, you are wrong. I fly (operate if u wish)large aircraft (B744).

Point two:
Your "Fly/operate" arguement is semantic and I can site just as many accidents where the AP was fully functional and operating when the A/C collided with mother earth. AA Cali 757

Point Three:

FBW stands for FLY by Wire. If we were only ment to "operate" the aircraft there would not even need to be any form of controls system in an Aircraft. Some might think that we are headed that way, but the realistic limitations of the technology, current and near future, belies something to the contrary. An airplane isn't an airport shuttle train that can be safely operated by the limited AI that is currently available.

Point Four:

There shouldn't be a question of whether a pilot can fly an approach to minimums to the highest degree of safety. If that pilot cannot he has no business being in command of any aircraft ,large or small, carrying the unsuspecting public.The pilot and the autopilot have the same standards and operating parameters for an approach and need I remind you that when those standards were concieved autopilots weren't commonplace.

If you think it is appropriate to not allow pilots the discretion of hand flying then maybe you fall into the camp of those (especially management types) who think anyone can do this job.

My opinion is that it is essential that we Excercise our skills whenever we can. Everyone of us should strive to be the best pitch/power pilots that we can be, because when things go T.U. thats the guy we all want in the cockpit when our families are on board. SEE Al Haynes or Denny Fich UAL 232.

bman0429

9th Jun 2006, 11:05

To the advocates of automation as opposed to manual flying what happens when due to the nature of the problem all autopilots are inop (e.g on the B767 loss of left ac bus) ? Do you let you pax know that you can't fly the a/c due to limited manual flying skills if at all or have no experience in flying an a/c due to company procedure compounded by lack of practice ? Or you would show the a/c "who is flying who". Whilst the advent of automation has brought about a huge increase in safety and reduction in workload in the industry, ignoring the basis of the profession which is to "pilot" an a/c is even more dangerous.
Rushing to stick in the autopilot when you lose an engine whilst being the best and the most recommended solution usually happens when you when you have the a/c in trim. I stand to be corrected here but trying to engage the a/p with an out of trim a/c will result in a even more dangerous situation. Actually manual flying should be encouraged in times of low workload (ie uncongested airspace) and when wx permits:ok:
Most pax when they see us going into the a/c believe in their entirety that we actually fly the plane hands on. Try telling them that when the going gets tough we will be found wanting and see how many will fly.

I concur wholeheartedly!

Somepeople don't even realize when situations happen that fall outside of the autopilots design limitations it turns itself off and guess who's got the airplane?!:hmm: United 232 is the prime example.

Warlock2000

9th Jun 2006, 12:09

There shouldn't be a question of whether a pilot can fly an approach to minimums to the highest degree of safety. If that pilot cannot he has no business being in command of any aircraft ,large or small, carrying the unsuspecting public.
AMEN ! :ok:

whenever I have any of my family flying on any commercial jet, I would always want Maverick and Ice Man at the front to allow the automatics do it and them monitor those Spend some time in the sim and you'd be surprised at how many have crashed BEFORE the AP was able to be engaged during V1 seizures. Also, this flight that your family's on, hope they don't encounter windshear, because when the AP runs out of survival ideas guess who's got to fly ???
When the chips are down and no AP's avail, you'd better pray that Mav & Ice didn't spend too much time at EK watching the AP's flying....:D

Shouldn't we be teaching those who struggle to hand fly to fly rather than stopping those who can from doing so?

gl69

9th Jun 2006, 13:04

I can't belive what is being said on this thread! We are pilots and pilots fly airplanes. If they want computer operators they can hire monkeys to push bottons and pay them far less than even we make.
I was most recently at a US airline that had a superior training department. In fact the last time we killed any of our passengers that was atribtuted to pilot error or airline procedures was 1974. We were very good. Having said that we were not allowed to use the autopilot at all during recurrent sim sessions and the line pilots did just fine. Also the airline encourged the pilots to try different ideas out on the line each month. Like take-off without the flight directors or swithing the FD from the cross hairs to the bat-bars for each leg. On line checks the check airman would reach over and turn the A/P off and the flight directors off and say fly, yes that is fly the airplane. What a noval idea!
I can't believe that "most" airlines require its pilots to use the automation nowadays. The only reason that an airline would even publish that is maybe for the lawyers to cover themselves from a lawsuit.

chinawladi

9th Jun 2006, 13:51

gl69
No, unfortunately you have to add incompetence.
Especially at the VPO level, running down to poor
choices of heads of fleet and training.
Policies and SOP's mirror their competence and EK
has nothing really pretty to show off with.

critical winge

9th Jun 2006, 19:00

OH FOR CHRISTs SAKE, LISTEN ALL YOU BLOODY MANUAL HEROES. IF YOU ARE ALL SO BLOODY GOOD AND THE FORCE IS ALWAYS WITH YOU, THEN WHY LET THE AUTOMATICS FLY THE JET.... BECAUSE IT DOES IT BETTTTTTEEEEEEERRRRRRR? nooooo wayyyyyy. WIIIIIIIIIND YOUR NECKS IN AND REALISE THAT YOUR EGOS ARE WAY ABOVE YOUR ABILITIES. IF YOU CAN FLY FOR 14HRS AND DO A CAT 3 DUAL LANDING BETTER THAN THE AP THEN TELL ME SO,,,,,,AND NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOBODY WILL BELIEVE YOU, SO SHUT IT AND GET ON WITH ANOTHER THREAD. Really bored of maverick and goose telling us how well they are going to do this job better and with all our families on, YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWNNNNNNN.:ugh: and if you feel upset by this post MAV AND ICE, then go to councelling as CRM is way beyond your own awesome abilities. Your reply means your requirement for rehaB!!

Icebreaker

9th Jun 2006, 19:25

Bman....yeah yeah, whatever you believe.... :8

have to agree again with Crit Winge..... :D

The simulators prove we can do it all manually when we have to but lets face it, the modern automation systems don't suffer from fatigue and in almost all conditions will do a better job than us. Our responsibility is to the punters not to our "I am....I am" ego's. End of input.

Muttley Crew

9th Jun 2006, 19:51

Please get control of yourself Minge...

Obviously there are arguments for and against and any situation might be subtley different from the next. But the following is something less than professional:

OH FOR CHRISTs SAKE, LISTEN ALL YOU BLOODY MANUAL HEROES. IF YOU ARE ALL SO BLOODY GOOD AND THE FORCE IS ALWAYS WITH YOU, THEN WHY LET THE AUTOMATICS FLY THE JET.... BECAUSE IT DOES IT BETTTTTTEEEEEEERRRRRRR? nooooo wayyyyyy. WIIIIIIIIIND YOUR NECKS IN AND REALISE THAT YOUR EGOS ARE WAY ABOVE YOUR ABILITIES. IF YOU CAN FLY FOR 14HRS AND DO A CAT 3 DUAL LANDING BETTER THAN THE AP THEN TELL ME SO,,,,,,AND NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOBODY WILL BELIEVE YOU, SO SHUT IT AND GET ON WITH ANOTHER THREAD. Really bored of maverick and goose telling us how well they are going to do this job better and with all our families on, YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWNNNNNNN. and if you feel upset by this post MAV AND ICE, then go to councelling as CRM is way beyond your own awesome abilities. Your reply means your requirement for rehaB!!
Only getting 2s for 'handling', ehh minge??? :cool:

Shame about your credibility around here after the above ranting. :{ Hope ya upgrade psych interview goes well!!

How's your hangover, Minge? Must've been a hell night on the sauce.....:yuk:

MR8

9th Jun 2006, 22:10

I just keep flying the thing. Unfortunately I have to keep the ATHR and FD in with this new FCI. I used to disconnect them for virtually every approach where it was possible.
Doing that, I was not practising, that's something I did when I was a student pilot. What I do by switching off the automatics is just doing my job at MAINTAINING my skills.
Of course I agree that when flying in a busy airspace or in marginal weather conditions, that a pilot should use the automatics as much as possible, but I also think that whenever conditions permit, a pilot should FLY the aircraft.
How to decide where to do what should be up to the pilot, because every day is different, and a good judgement is just basic airmanship. Of course, that's something a lot of guys at EK miss... unfortunately

Let's see how long untill we make a GF go-around because we miss a basic scan...

MR8

411A

9th Jun 2006, 22:26

>>....lets face it, the modern automation systems don't suffer from fatigue and in almost all conditions will do a better job than us.<<

More than likely true.
Looking at it another way, now that the EK crews are SO overworked and underpaid (according to a few of 'em anyway), this way the company can KEEP working 'em to the max, keep the pay within reason, and STILL keep the safety levels up.

Management, their finest hour.
What a beautiful idea!!:D

theautopilot

10th Jun 2006, 02:25

no one has asked for my opinion.

I work longer
I am always accurate
I never back stab
I never moan
I don't get paid
I don't bonk the hosties
I listen to alot of crap and never talk back

Gimme a break, watchin ya fly makes me laugh.

theautopilot:8

chinawladi

10th Jun 2006, 02:59

I am limited at 15 cross
I sometimes just refuse to engage, God (Airbus) knows why
I can't handle RA's, I'm a little slow you know
If I don't like it or can't handle it, I always have my cheap back up:
I just throw it back at that lazy tart behind the stick

If the latter then runs into trouble, no sweat, it will always be statistcally
marked as pilot error.

Get professional guys. We're still needed with our skills.
Skills need to be sharpened, not inhibited.

bus canuck

10th Jun 2006, 03:45

I can't believe what is being said on this thread!

I agree! I'm shocked that this is even debatable. All we bring to the cockpit is the 'human element.' If you don't keep your handling skills current, what are you going to do on the dark winter's day with the gusting cross-wind? Since Icebreaker was quoting JAR FCL, I suggest you read up on the NASA research into currency. Most skill items are given a maximum of 30 days before you "lose currency."

The guys who practice, at appropriate times, manual flying tend to be the more conscientious of the group. Sadly, the 'AP on at 100 feet brigade' tend to be the pillows and blankets at 10, 000 feet types. Not modern airplane "programmers", just lazy $hits!

(CW, tone more than content, you've lost a lot of credibility with that post.:= )

SIDSTAR

10th Jun 2006, 03:58

I suppose it's "horses for courses" but in our outfit we are encouraged to handfly the aircraft when appropriate ie when the traffic is light and the wx is good at a quiet airfield. Nothing wrong with that - nobody's forced to do it and those who do it regularly, definitely show up better in the sim in their handling skills than the lazy b*ggers.

I seem to remember the Gulf Air accident not a world away from said EK! A little handling skills in a routine 2-engined go-around would not have gone amiss methinks! Remind me NOT to fly with EK from now on. I'd like to think that when the bright shiny Bus ( or Boeing) decides to do its own thing, that at least one of the guys/gals up front could do something about it. They sure as hell aint gonna learn it in the sim in 4r hrs every six months.

El Peligroso

10th Jun 2006, 06:39

Agree with MR8, if conditions permit why not fly the aeroplane?
Don't agree with the FCI. :=

EGGW

10th Jun 2006, 10:10

Don't agree with FCI, but its their company. However, i WILL do VOR/NDS/RNAV approaches and visuals (following SOP's) regularly. Not practicing, just flying as trained. One day i might have to do that Circling approach in Sh1tty Wx. Better be ready i guess :D
As for A/Thr well it ain't rocket science is it!

EGGW

Centaurus

10th Jun 2006, 10:29

Surely the ideal pilot should have equal competency at hand flying the aeroplane or monitoring and operating the automatics? If hand flying skills are not required then what's wrong with making inexperienced pilots captains providing they are up to scratch at monitoring automation? While you are at it, drop the salaries commensurate with basic computer skills which is all you need to press V and L Nav...

semper fi

10th Jun 2006, 12:12

Ummmm guys, have any of us here flown a modern fbw widebody across any great expanse of water without the a/p? just wanna know.....:)

Zomp

10th Jun 2006, 14:01

yes, I did it 6 hrs over the atlantic, why?

uplock

10th Jun 2006, 14:40

I agree with Seaman cant see why so many guys are spitting the dummy the Policy has been around for a while in one form or another with the powers that be banging the drums on this one for a while.

Seen more than the odd stuff up at 2 or 3 am departing Dubai from my off sider showing me how crash hot their flying skills are and as a previous poster pointed out its all FBW and we are not in the local aeroclub so what really are you doing?

Personally the fun went out of flying many moons ago. We are here to get the punters safely from A to B deal with the night to day problems and any thing else in between. I don't have a problem saying AP1 shortly after Take Off and disconnecting before landing.

We all know how to fly Airplanes else we wouldn't have been given the job in the first place. One guy I recall mentioned that in the old days the blokes who drove the Steam Trains around were paid big bucks and had to operate complicated machinery, now days you can jump in an electric train that is fully automated and doesn't even need a train driver.

Times have changed and will keep changing. Personal computers and monitors are cheap these days you can use very realistic software to emulate both Boeing and Airbus FBW B777 and A330/A340.

Have to say Im surprised over all the hoo hah, what happend with just getting the job done?

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5977/1136/1600/Aprilpic.jpg

Muttley Crew

10th Jun 2006, 20:15

cant see why so many guys are spitting the dummy....... Have to say Im surprised over all the hoo hah
The hoohah and teddy-tossing seems to be mainly by guys who can't believe other pilots are actually capable of manual flight.

The policy has always been to make maximum use of the automation. The FCI formalises the policy, somewhat, and emphasises the intent. Now, if something goes wrong, there is one more meat-hook from which to hang the pilot (as opposed to the policies).

These FCIs or policy reminders normally come about as a result of an event of some kind. I'd like to know what triggered this latest effort from the office.

Meanwhile, some pilots will continue to engage auto-pilot at 200ft with a sigh of relief whilst others will hand-fly until they see fit to engage the auto-pilot because the FCI doesn't stipulate exactly when to engage it.

The first lot will disengage at the DH or wherever they feel it's safe to "cut in" for a moment whilst the other guys might actually hand-fly the intercept.

So what??? With the size of the egos being bruised here, you'd think it was indeed Maverick, Slider and Mailman we were talking about... :rolleyes: All over a little hand-flying in a straight line.

Warlock2000

11th Jun 2006, 05:15

I think from the above that no-one disagrees that flying the aircraft through the automatics it at times the best and safest option, but, there are times when some hands on manipulation of the flight controls is ALSO prefectly acceptable. It's a matter of choice, in the past if you wanted to fly AP/A-THR/FD engaged ALL the time fine - it was your choice, now it is no longer. :{

And as for the FBW comment that the pilot is not connected to the flight controls - I've got a wireless mouse and it does the same job as my old wire one.

MR8

11th Jun 2006, 09:14

I'm a bit stupified by some of the replies here..

It's a FACT that if you don't fly manual for a long time, you will get rusty at is. Doesn't take a lot to brush up, just a few approaches in good weather to actually feel how the lady behaves. If someone tells me that they KNOW how to fly, and they don't need to keep up their abilities, well, that sounds to me a lot more like a hotshotpilot instead of the guy who flies the plane, and thus admits that his skills will go downward if he wouldn't practise. Who to call Maverick or Iceman now??

Even if you don't agree with me on that point, what about the ''less fortunate'' guys, who never will have the chance to actually fly a jet with these new policies. Would you want to have your family on board of that flight to Hong Kong with a nice gusty crosswind, maybe windshear, and the two local guys in the front haven't really flown the thing manual before, because they weren't supposed to do so? No offence to the local guys, just wondering where the cadet will be getting his experience to become a good captain? Maybe he should go out and rent a Piper for his manual skills?

Bottomline, I think it's ridiculous to issue an FCI like this one. The sole reason we are on board of the aircraft is for when the faeces hits the fan, and then you'd better be prepared..

MR8

Andu

11th Jun 2006, 09:49

Personal computers and monitors are cheap these days you can use very realistic software to emulate both Boeing and Airbus FBW B777 and A330/A340.My God, are you actually saying what I think you’re saying, uplock? That if a professional pilot wants to practice flying the aeroplane he’s paid to FLY, he does so on Microsoft Flight Simulator?

Eliason

11th Jun 2006, 10:18

Nice one MR8.

I'm just at the beginning of my career, so I sometimes like to compare myself with the cadets. I finished my ratings with about 270hrs, mainly C152, C172, a bit of twin time.

After the 40+ hours of sim-time during the type rating I felt I can "fly" the plane, but only the next few hundred hours taught me how it really "behaves".
We can - and sometimes have to - fly VOR, NDB, visual approaches, ...

We always fly ILS when appropriate (busy airports, bad weather, ...). But if the weather is good and traffic permits, I don't believe it's unsafe to fly visually or disconnect the autopilot and FD, fly a practise VOR approach...

I've got about 500 hours on type now on as many legs and must confess, only now I slowly start feeling comfortable with most the stuff the weather throws at me (appart from very strong crosswinds, my max was 20kts and dodging thunderstorms - had the good luck of missing most of them so far due to mainly morning flights).

Not everyone in a major airline joins with thousands of hours - some are low time, who might still need some "practise" sessions, who not only need to "maintain" their skills, but to actually aquire them... ;)

Oblaaspop said: "line ops is not considered the time to practice handling skills". I do agree. But I also believe that an airline shouldn't just rule it out totally. Did they actually leave a leeway - some exceptions? Something like: Cadets during their supervision should perform a certain amound of A/P off approaches? or: on flights with training captains, weather and traffic permitting certain things are still allowed?

I must say - I do enjoy the type of flying I do. Having the plane fly down an ILS in nice weather so you have more time to enjoy the view is great, but nothing beats a nice visual approach with 30km+ visibility and blue sky - for example in Venice where the line ups for the ILS are usually something like: fly direkt Laren (hdg 200) - cleared ILS 04R. :\ :)

ruserious

11th Jun 2006, 10:52

MR8, couldn't agree with you more, its not about ego or proving you are iceman.
For an experienced airline pilot, hand flying must be a motor action or an over learned process, that requires minimal mental effort, so that they can cope with other tasks.
If a pilot is rusty, or worse, has never developed good hand flying skills they will have a significantly higher cognitive workload the day they have to hand fly, whether it is a gusty x-wind approach, autoflight system abnormal, windshear recovery or Carnarsie arrival into JFK. Lack of hand flying practice means they will have no extra capacity to maintain good situational awareness or deal with any failures.
All of our major incidents in the airline have required solid flying skills to recover the situation, (KG, SAN, JNB etc). Yes leaving flying to the automatics gives a better performance 99% of the time, but in these highly automated aircraft we are there for the day when it all does not work as advertised, then we have to take over smoothly and seamlessly. This requires that we rewuire some level of practice, to maintain our hand flying motor skills. Anyone who does not understand this is either in denial or just plain thick.

waldorfin

11th Jun 2006, 15:20

Good point on the MEL. Just looked it up and the MEL states that dispatch with A/P, F/D and A/T inop. are authorised unless ETOPS, RVSM or low viz however faced with this situation would AS and co accept a reasoning of “this is not the time…” and have the airplane grounded in some airport around the not so developed world.

A fellow Gulf carrier lost lives because the pilot became disorientated in manually flying the aircraft, before stating the obvious that would he have used automatics the incident would not have happened, just three days ago the A/P disengaged in a brand new A/C and for some unexplained reason would not re-engage until 15 minutes later. Should an incident as this mean a potential hull loss, what if it happened on a dark night flying into some outpost, as we do. On the 330 that lost an engine the A/T would NOT re-engage, what then is it acceptable to believe that safety should be compromised because the driver was not up to speed.

We as the “PILOTS” are the last line of defence against catastrophe and as such this line depends on well skilled and professional operators. We are licensed not to a commercial entity but a government authority who mandates a minimum level of competency. As far as the argument regarding economics, ask gulf air if they would have accepted 16kg’s extra fuel burn per approach in lieu of a disaster such as they faced.

BYMONEK

11th Jun 2006, 16:38

Seaman

SRA. Are we authorised to do those in this Company? I thought not! :confused:

145qrh

11th Jun 2006, 16:57

SRA was mentioned in recent FCI about the change in our OPS SPEC's, "no longer mentioned but still allowed"..NOt quite sure how that works though ?

readytocopy

12th Jun 2006, 01:23

I love being micro-managed again. Here we are trying to be overly safe that we are taking the thinking out of the pilots. Already airmanship is gone cause we are over reliance on the Fcuk'in FOM. Boom!! That's whats going to happen next. Nice to have someone in the office flying the plane.:=

WhatsaLizad?

13th Jun 2006, 03:03

I just wonder how successful some of this group will be in the event they are faced with the possibility of a non-autopilot, pre-employment simulator check after years and years of button pushing.

While I would agree that hand flying for hours from 30-50W, or 5-10 holding circuits at Ockham while at 0300 base time is over the top, but becoming familiar with your aircraft with the autopilot off when the opportunity presents itself will enhance the safety level of your operation.

CanadaKid

13th Jun 2006, 07:16

http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resources/Airbus%20A320-200,%20I-BIKE%2006-06.pdf

How well can you handfly with limited panel?

Beta Light

13th Jun 2006, 07:19

It's like golf; you need time on the course to keep your handicap. Cannot rely on your ability of the past. I sat as a P3 ( Second Officer) for almost 4 years, needed LOT of time to get the skill back, it is not just cadets.

Would gladly follow the company S.O.P. if they give me time to practice my swing and putting on the driving range.

Unfortunately simulators have become "checking" and not "training" aids.....Well in my company anyway!!

Personally I disconnect when ever the oppertunety arrive.

critical winge

13th Jun 2006, 13:45

Had to reflect on some of the wiser statements made about flying, sadly none from this thread.

If you push the stick forward, the houses get bigger, if you pull the stick back they get smaller. (Unless you keep pulling the stick back -then they get bigger again)

Modern A/Ps don’t allow this manual rule. And (pilot safe) automatics are there to help Maverick recover from a bad situation.

Remember, you're always a student in an airplane A/Ps have been around longer than most of us.

CFIT. Would love to know the proportion of Human Vs AP CFIT statistics.

Flying is the perfect vocation for a man who wants to feel like a boy, but not for one who still is.

Lol.

Good judgment comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgment.

Automatics have a lot of previous experience built into them. A solitary Mav or Ice man can no way be up to date with all the possibilities that have taken out his previous heroes.

Ice man, was that a landing or were we shot down?

The only recorded heavy landings have been manually flown!!

Oh, why should I go on. By the way. I have flown low level very fast on my own. But still I believe we should let the automatics do it until we really have to take over. Its easy to keep the blue side up and the brown side down, when you did your selection you prooved it. If you lost both A/Ps you cant be trusted to fly anyway and Non RVS compliant ensures you don’t attempt it. POINT MADE AND FINISHED.

ByAirMail

13th Jun 2006, 16:21

If only it was that easy critical winge, why does the powers to be want us to demonstrate our skills bi annually?

The reason I got the job was because I could fly the sim. well due to the fact that I was "hands on current"

WhatsaLizad?

13th Jun 2006, 17:55

Ice man, was that a landing or were we shot down?
The only recorded heavy landings have been manually flown!!

Does your company permit autolands up to the max certificated crosswind limit?

Mine doesn't

fiddlair

13th Jun 2006, 18:23

CV no wonder you are an asshole, guys like you never enjoy retirement - they always die before reaching it.....

bigmountain

13th Jun 2006, 19:09

Maybe the company wants you to lose your flying skills so as not to be able to pass any other airlines sim interviews. Thus avoidig a mass exodus.
BM

Vorsicht

14th Jun 2006, 05:47

Would i be right in saying that EK still require you to hand fly the sim when interviewing for a job here.

Bit hypocritical don't you think if they require you to posess the skills when you arrive, but don't require you to retain them once you are here.

Oblaaspop

14th Jun 2006, 12:28

Hey Bigmountain, I'd be very wary of using the initials BM on this board if I were you!:ok:

Scudsy

14th Jun 2006, 13:38

If I may be allowed to speak in my previous capacity as a training captain. I can definitely see a far greater level of situational awareness from pilots with regular hands on flying practice (and this includes jets with moving maps).
This enhanced S.A. is clearly evident when the automatics are engaged ALSO.
All studies back up this evidence.
The pilot has far more free capacity when the **** hits the fan if he has the scan associated with a well practiced pilot, that is why you do a sim ride manually prior to employment. It shows how much spare capacity you have.
The aircraft will still be dispatched with a u/s autopilot and those that are insisting you don't "practice" are the one's who will insist that you accept this aircraft.
There is definitely a time & a place, as mentioned previously in this thread.
BUT...
It is completely crazy to word a rule that precludes manual flight at midday on a CAVOK day to your home base when there is little or no traffic.
Who comes up with this crap? The tail is wagging the dog.
A cadet who eventually gains his command and has to land in a large crosswind because the conditions are outside the autoland limits is a VERY SCARY proposition. Far more dangerous than rewording this rule to return to COMMON SENSE.
CW you are lucky enough to have lots of hands on. Some of us have but that is no longer true for many pilots.
I've trained lot's of 200 hour cadets (in my previous airline) and they NEED to get hands on experience on the aircraft. No sim will be good enough (in the forseeable future). Even one of your qualifing autolands has to be done in the aircraft.
An automatics only attitude will get these guys into ALOT of trouble, mark my words. Management pilots that come up with these rules don't fly much anymore. Some don't fly at all any more. Even TRI's who can't escape the sim are getting little exposure to the real job
I have yet to see any aircraft, fly by wire or otherwise that has auotmatic landing limits equal to manual landing limits.
The hard landings are manual one's SURE! But that's because the autopilot wasn't able to do the job AT ALL! Not because pilots are all dick heads who should stay away from the controls. Most hard landings find nothing wrong with the a/c during inspection, and are not truely HARD.
There are still many occasions when manual intervention is THE BEST course of action to ensure a safe flight path.
TCAS RA events are handled better by pilots who are well practiced in manual flight. This is a manual flight critical manouvre. Are you comfortable with that?
YOU SHOULD BE.

ruserious

14th Jun 2006, 14:50

Yep, spot on Scudsy, couldn't agree more
CW, I am thinking you have lost the plot on this one, maybe you have been in the sun too long and have gone native :\

EGGW

14th Jun 2006, 14:55

Personally i have had more hard, or should that be firm landings done by a fully Cat3b FBW aircraft than any bad effort on my part. Once at BHX RWY15, i had the friggin thing bounce in CAT3b on landing, only rescued it by manual intervention. Yes there was protection and LVP's in force.

Bottom line i agree that the new policy sucks, but work around it, let the SOP's work for you, visual approaches and NPA's are approved, use them!

I must say the truly worrying thing is the problem any cadets will face in the future, who have not truly been faced with a good exposure to strong xwinds and manual flight for extended periods. Would i want my family on board, no thanks :=

EGGW

critical winge

14th Jun 2006, 15:05

OK OK OK OK OKKKKK!!!! I give up, you are all as cool as Mav and Ice man and fair enough, you must remain hands on capable AS AND WHEN APPROPRIATE. Funny thing is I do it AT THE APPROPRIATE time also and therfore agree with you, generally. Jeepers, some of you guys do go on. No harm in causing a little debate, love the aviation terms asshole and tone of post. Come on guys, spot the wind up, getting way too serious, had to come out in the end. :D Besides I fly it manually every time (to 201'):rolleyes:

brokenenglish

14th Jun 2006, 17:29

Bottom line i agree that the new policy sucks, but work around it, let the SOP's work for you, visual approaches and NPA's are approved, use them!

Are they? I refer you to ASR 18902 published yesterday, the last sentence states:

"practice approaches using less than the best available approach guidance are not permitted in normal line operations".

chinawladi

15th Jun 2006, 03:34

The A380 production delay is due to e.a. ".....problems with the highly sophisticated electronics."
So the mania to complicate things and taking it away from the expensive pilots and trying to give it
all to the oh so economical big brother takes a blow. This time it will be a huge financial one and
it will not be restraint to the manufacturer, but also to the airlines bowing to the hollow promises
they made. I hope Airbus (AND EK) will learn from this lesson: Keep it simple, best use of equipment
should also contain the pilot and if you continue to use him where HE performs best, you might end up
with the more economical solution!

Warlock2000

15th Jun 2006, 06:28

Critical wind-up....:cool: Mhh, nice try in recovering some face, but I don't think so. :=

EGGW

15th Jun 2006, 08:22

Hi Broken english. Lets play with words here, EK do all the time. I did not mention anything regards "practising" approaches, just being a competent shag line pilot and doing NPA's and visual approaches, no practice there mate! Try it out, you may one day have to do a sh*tty circling approach, at night, no amount of sim practice will help you out!

EGGW :D

CV Donator

15th Jun 2006, 10:53

If yo need to practice your NPA,s and circle to lands in crap weather come and spend the average week in RYR.

brokenenglish

15th Jun 2006, 12:00

Sorry Luton, wasn't having a stab at you.

Without revealing the full contents of an internal ASR I was pointing out that according to that ASR the only time EK crews are permitted to conduct a visual or NPA is when that is the best approach available.

For example (according to the ASR) a practice localiser approach should not be flown in good weather if an ILS approach is available.

From a lawyers narrow point of view it makes perfect sense to always operate to best capability. From the flight deck crews professional point of view it makes more sense to conduct an NPA in good weather as practice for the time when the NPA may be the best approach available in marginal weather conditions.

Is that clearer? (I was attempting to highlight the nonsense of the apparent company policy mentioned in the ASR).

EGGW

15th Jun 2006, 13:17

No worries there, you make a fair point! EK policies, as clear as mud :ugh: :ugh:

EGGW

violate

17th Jun 2006, 06:35

EK policies are there to allow the company maximum flexibility and enable blaming the pilots when something goes wrong. Its just a shame the GCAA is so dumb as to let them away with such patently ambiguous policies.

fly737

17th Jun 2006, 07:45

EK=GCAA , hello wake up guys?????

KeepRecovering

17th Jun 2006, 10:31

I would love to hand fly the aircraft more, do the odd 'join downwind for a visual circuit' (heck I used to do it before in a 747-400). However, I am about to put my wife and kids on an aircraft back to blighty this summer and given the ability of some of our pilots, I am more than happy with EK policies.

Heck, the company had to put in 'gates' and policies to drastically reduce the number of go-arounds and thats with crews using ALL available automation!! Let some of the idiots turn off the automation and guess what?.. it WILL be abused and there'll be an incident. Just look at the number of incidents there used to be before they tightened up the policies. I think we've been damn lucky so far.

Another interesting point of discussion might be that if guys handling skills are poor then this should be picked up by the training department and acted on accordingly. Lets have more 'hands-on' flying in the sim please!

Safe Flying All.

fatbus

17th Jun 2006, 11:49

EK does not =GCAA, get it right.
EK chairman is also Head of DGCA(Dubai not the UAE)

brokenenglish

17th Jun 2006, 11:53

In the same way that Tartanguy turned out to be brian, I wonder if KeepRecovering could turn out to be alan.

Spinning up EK and DXB on his other post (no problem with that, quite refreshing for a change). But, doing down his colleagues on this thread? Very bad form, old boy.

Now, who would have that point of view?

Sounds like an 'ace on the stick' though (double entendre intended):

...... do the odd 'join downwind for a visual circuit' (heck I used to do it before in a 747-400).

Anybody know how brian is these days?

145qrh

17th Jun 2006, 12:31

There I was " nothing on the clock but the makers name, and so low had to stand on the seat to see over the waves" Blah blah :D :D

Old phrase " he who pays piper calls tune" :)

Don't like it tho'. 1 more reason to add to the why I must go list.....

Not many reasons to stay..Lots to go, and getting longer by the FCI.

KeepRecovering

17th Jun 2006, 21:00

Hey BE ! 'Alan' !!! don't make me laugh. You appear to be more the company man with your quoted concern for ones colleagues. A real team player and fine upstanding citizen no doubt.

Very constructive post though, keep it up.

p.s. I will have a go at the company in a later post if it makes you feel better though (trouble is, I just can't be bothered to write a post that long).

AIMS by IBM

18th Jun 2006, 20:03

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/smartapi/cgi/sga_doc?smartapi!celexplus!prod!DocNumber&lg=en&type_doc=Regulation&an_doc=2005&nu_doc=2111

Any complaints about the UAE DGCA or EK should be sent to......

http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/pri/en/oj/dat/2003/l_167/l_16720030704en00230036.pdf

The reason why the EK A 340 Joburg landing was a complete **** up is simply because the pilots were not able to make a non precision approach on the longest runway since no ILS was available for that runway ......landing deep and high on speed........lack of basic flyings skills.

The whole system is infected.....unless EK dramatically increases the hours and frequancy of sim training. Two times a year is no longer enough to keep up to speed.