Hidden PPL Charges?

[planecrazy.eu]

Hey All! I am planning on getting a PPL at some stage in the new few months, but i have no idea on what the hidden extras are and their prices? I know about 45 hours of instruction but what other bits and bobs are needed? Medical, tests and is there a license issue fee?

A big thanks in advance for any help, much appreciated.

[BEagle]

You will need a JAA Class 2 medical. Costs in excess of £100

There are 7 theory exams plus an RT practical test. Costs vary - but allow at least another £100-200. You will also need to buy text books, perhaps 5 at £20 each.

Some places even charge for ground instruction as well.

You may need a headset (£220), nav computer, ruler, etc etc.....

The Skill Test will be conducted by an Examiner whose fee will be at least £150.

Licence issue fee is currently £159.

[planecrazy.eu]

Hey, thanks for that, is it class two medical needed? How oftern do these need renewing?

I am thinking of training in the USA, but is it really cheaper or is there places in UK or Europe that are not far off the price? I was looking at £4000 in the states with a place to stay.

Thanks again...

[mcgoo]

lots cheaper, i did my PPL in the states in a warrior for just over £4000, thats including everything, even a night qualification!

[Felix Saddler]

Is a PPL pointless? i mean is it more for recreational purposes or is it something which is 100% needed to become a comercial pilot?

[BEagle]

The Class 2 validity period depends on your age..

If you're at BHX, why bother with high pressure Spamland PPL farms in Florida? I suggest you visit the delightful Wellesbourne Mountford a mere 25 miles to the south. See http://www.wellesbourneairfield.com/ .

I have no financial interest in any of the schools, but would recommend South Warwickshire Flying School unhesitatingly!

[planecrazy.eu]

Hey thanks for that, I thought of Coventry, never thought about looking south, i am on-top of the M42 so welsbourne is no time at all, will have a look there, if its not much more than the states, £500 or so more i will use them. Its going to cost £5000 in the states with living and the costs, so much rather save the travel and stay this side of the pond.

[172driver]

Before jumping to any conclusion I'd suggest you search the archives here and read the (numerous) other threads about the relative merits of training in the US vs UK (or anywhere in Europe, for that matter). This goes way beyond merely saving (or not) a couple of hundred quid.

[planecrazy.eu]

Hey, i have searched the forums and now i am even more confused as it seems a matter of opinion, some say USA is good, some day UK is better, then people say spain? The money side of things dont really bother me too much, a credable ppl is what i want. I looked to the USA because its a chance to escape the country for a few weeks, and get a PPL at the same time, i just really dont know the real pros and cons, if there are any?

Do people frown on US PPL's? I know before i can rent a plane over here i will have to get a good few UK hours in, but are there any other majour disadvantages? I have searched posts on this, and as soon as i think i have found the answers i want i read another thread and go back to square one...

[Bahn-Jeaux]

Its personal preference.
The cost issue again boils down to whether you want a PPL at a low cost or a PPL that equips you for the type of flying you intend to do.
I chose the higher cost UK route because my flying will be here in this area mainly and I am training at a busy commercial airport which means right from the off, I will have to contend with a lot of radio traffic and get used to it which in my opinion is invaluable in this country.
Similarly, I have to contend with holds both on the ground and in the air together with having to be far more vigilant in the air due to heavier traffic than you will encounter in the US.
Thrown in at the deep end maybe, but it means that I have to swim right from the outset rather than just dipping my feet and suddenly finding myself out of my depth.
The extra cost for me is worth it for that knowledge and experience.

[gcolyer]

At the end of the day there is no right or wrong.

I find that those that trained in the UK are not so keen on the US route and vice versa.

I personaly trained in Florida and don't see a real problem with it. It really boils down to you intsructor (in my opinion). The issues with training in Florida are:

1) Some of the RT is slightly different, and it is definatley more relaxed.

2) The airspace that you fly in will not be so busy, other than in DAB ORL and SFB airspace. Then you have to worry about ATC sticking a 737 up your backside or telling you to land in the wake of a 777, or clearing a 767 to land on top of you.

3) The weather. Yes you get more sunshine and generally better flying conditions which means you can get the course done fairly quick. But you also get a lot of wind and i can promise you will loose at least two days to high winds (over 12kts on the runway).

4) As mentioned the instructor. You will most likely have an FAA approved instructor that trains you. They wont be very clued up on JAA regulation, and they will more than likely only be interested in hour building for the airlines. To me this is the biggest concern. My instructor was excellent, although he did not have a clue about JAA stuff. I think you should look for the following in any Instructor:

a) Good method of Instructor
b) Sound knowledge in the subjects (FAA or JAA)
c) Excellent pilot abilities
d) Trust in the student (early on)
e) Calm in tense situations (Stalls, spins, Simulated engine failure)
f) Approachable
g) Commited to your training (as an individual to you and himself)

When you come home to fly in the UK, you will need to do a club check ride in order to be able to use thier aircraft. You will most likely need to do some RT work and procedure work (circuit joins, routed departures...) and you will need to get used to the weather.

When i got home i done 1.4 hours with an instructor and got the all clear to use club aircraft. Since then i mostly use my mates PA32, in the last 4 months i have clocked just over 100 hours. I have spent alot of that time flying in not so good VMC weather, being that there is alot of poor weather in the UK i thought it would be best to get used to it quick. Howerver i would recommend at least 10 hours with an experienced IR/IMC rated pilot first. Luckily thats my mate.

of course this is all my opinion.

[Maxflyer]

When I started my PPL training I opted to pay up front to my club and everything was included i.e. 45 hours, all exam fees, landing fees at home field and skills test (excluding medical) I also received a flight case containing all Trevor Thom books, CRP1, Ruler, Protractor, kneeboard etc. I know that a lot of contributors to this forum reel with horror at the thought of paying up front, but for me it worked. I checked out the flying school and gave very careful consideration before parting with my money. I also paid by card; that gave me a certain amount of protection for six months anyway.

Everything went well for me, the flight time needed for me to pass was more than the basic 45 hours and I paid for that time accordingly, but for a simple soul like myself, I found this an easy way to go about getting my PPL.

MF

[Julian]

Another major hidden cost in the UK training regime is landing fees, especially if you are based an unlicenced airfield and have to travel to a licenced airfield where you dont have a landing card, agreement, etc (also more cost in flight time).

Landing fees can vary from £5-10 per landing to places such as Manchester where I have heard £35 a go!!!

make sure you include them in your calculations as you will be doing quite a few and they will rack up before you know it!

Julian.

[18greens]

Don't also forget the cost of getting to Florida, living costs, car hire and the cost of 4 weeks off work. Oh and TSA approval to train and the fact you can't change schools if you don't like it.

I doubt it makes much difference where you go, the US gets you your ticket quickly, and its better than giving up half way through because of poor weather in the UK. (it does rain in Florida though- try Arizona for guaranteed weather). On the other hand you get used to making weather decisions in the UK. Good/bad instructors, schools, planes exist everywhere.

Most people seem to choose their school based on how nicely they are spoken to when they walk through the door. Go to the schools, make your choice.

[smala01]

I actually did my JAA PPL in California and had a great time, although I’m not sure about the US being quiet. It was usual to have 10 planes in the circuit at once where I learnt, especially on weekends! Also some fantastic memories of flying over LAX on a cross country flight, lunch in Santa Monica – oh and almost flying into Mexico – but that’s another story.

BUT if cost is an issue, have you considered how you will fund your flying when back in the UK? I mean if your years budget is 4k for example, you could spread your learning over the year and this will be your years flying. Cram it into 4 weeks and you still have to find another 4k to go flying for the rest of the year.

[Julian]

The other side of that is you may not finish your PPL due to financial constraints in the UK. I had posted on a previous thread re: a freind who had just finished a PPL at a Northern school which took him a year flying weekends and the odd day on the week, mainly due to weather and lack of instructor.

In the end he clocked up 90hours (which is easy to do if you have to revisit lessons due to a week or two off due to weather, etc) and he worked out his PPL cost him about £16,000.

If you can afford a month off work then I would go the US route for your PPL and then decide what you want to do from there. At the end of the day its a licence to learn and you will be constantly building on your skills once you return.

If you cant get the time off then go the UK weekend route which is obviously much easier to fit in around your work calender.

If you go to the US the things to budget for are the course, flight test, exams (although strongly reccommend you do these in the UK and get them out of the way!), accomdation and food and the odd beer :p

Whenever I have been most hotels have run a free bus service so not needed car hire and of course once you pass you wont need car hire as you can fly everywhere sightseeing :)

J

[gcolyer]

I may as well mention this:

One flying school in the USA includes 21 days accomodation in the price of their package.

Hidden chanrges with them:

$100 insurance (optional but worth it)
$100 headset rental (returnable)
$50?? bits and bobs rental. Map, fuel strainer, AD book, FAR/AIM... (returnable)

If this is classed as a sales pitch then my tin hat is on

[Paris Dakar]

planecrazy.eu,

As well as enquiring about hidden costs, make sure you ask prospective schools about the 'average' number of hours their students take to complete their PPLs.

I may be totally off the mark here (and stand to be corrected) but I can't imagine getting a PPL in the UK for only £500 more than the US obtained one you mention.

[1d2d3d4d]

I also fly from Wellesbourne, but with Wellesbourne Aviation, which I have found very friendly and I must say cost effective. No landing fees at Wellesbourne, rarely held at the hold waiting for traffic, but there are exceptional days, this means paying for less time on the ground, brakes off to take off time.

You will however have a number of lessons cancelled due to crap weather, or have your training re-arranged because crosswinds are out of limits for solo circuits etc. Towards the end of your training you will need to take time off work (if you have work) to get longer flights ie QXCs in, because you will need the aircraft for half a day and weekends book up in advance by up to 5-6 weeks. You need to stay current.

Just got my QXC solo, revision and skills test to go, cost to date, don't know exactly but in the order of £5,700

Chris

[mcgoo]

why when people ask about doing training in the US do we get all the replies, "don't forget the hidden costs like food and living costs"

don't these people eat when they are in the UK?

[planecrazy.eu]

Hey, thanks for all those replies. I think the USA is the better option for me, i am out there already (No Airfare) it will cost an extra $40 to upgrade my insurance. To me living expenses is not a hidden cost, as said above, i eat here. I currently have been made redundant, so no lost earnings, i have no mortgage or rent to pay whilst i am away. So i think it weighs up for me, i have had 3 hours in the air over here and i will come back and have at least ten or so and join a club. Thanks all for the responses, been a great help, just now got to get an M1 visa as i have a J1.

I am thinking of OBA, which i have heard good and bad about, but they seem to be priced in the middle and are friendly and helpful, any views on OBA?

Plus, they are down in orlando, i am up in boston in the summer, thats a 22 hour train journey, are there any good schools up the north of the USA?

[gcolyer]

I think you should compare the actual finish cost between the UK and US and not the advertised cost. I am fairly sure that 90% of the time you will save money in the US, even with the hidden charges.

Minus the hidden US costs off of the advertised UK prices and i am sure you will still save money on the Final US cost.

[Paris Dakar]

planecrazy.eu,

I've been there [OBA] three times now - please PM me if you want info (I was last there a couple of months back). There is also a thread running on the 'Professional Pilot Training' forum which may provide you with some pointers.

Can't help on other schools in the US I'm afraid as my flying has been done in Florida and California only.

PD

[EC Does It]

planecrazy,

Have you thought about Spain? You can easily do a ppl, including all the extras and accomodation, flights etc. for less than 4k. The weather is excellent and the chances are you wont miss a days training.

Cheers ECDI.

[englishal]

As Julian mentioned, Landing fees can increase the cost in the UK (a friend converted his FAA IR to JAA IR and the landing fees / approach fees added an additional £500 to the cost, and this was for just over 15 hours flying).

I'd say, that it doesn't matter where you learn, but the fact is that when everything is taken into account - airfares, hotel, visa issue fees etc.... it is still far cheaper in the USA, especially with the good exchange rate at the moment. I paid $5000 for 64 hours in a 172 in the USA for a JAA PPL - back in 2000 though, plus about $1000 hotel and £250 airfare. I still ate in the USA,and had a damn good holiday at the same time, and the hotel rate is still the same now as it was then at $43 per night (special discounted hotel rate for flight school people) :)

[planecrazy.eu]

In florida i am almost set on OBA, but what good schools are in Calafornia and another user mentioned Spain? Spain would be better as there is no hurricane season to watch out for like i will probibally experience in Florida in August. Plus i was thinking of FTE for my ATPL in a few years time after Uni.

My other problem is i have J-1 visa, does anyone know if i can convert a J-1 to and M-1 Visa pretty easy whilst i am out there? I am working till the middle of August in the USA but my Visa is till October and i cant train on a J-1, so is there a conversion process thats pretty quick. The embassy is a rip of to ring £1.20 per minute, but might have to ring as a last resort, thats all for the info so far...

[gcolyer]

If you are on a J-1 then you will be able to apply for and obtain an M-1 whilst in the U.S

[bencoulthard]

Have a quick scan through http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=224869

You can see what I have spent to date on lessons and other PPL expenses, I know it's not a total figure as I'm not done yet but might give you an idea.

Ben

[planecrazy.eu]

Thanks all again, i never knew i could convert J-1 to M-1 whilst in the states, do you know if this is hard or the time it takes, and biggest question, where? I will be in the north, Pitsfield MA and NYC. I assume i go to an Embassy like i spent six hours in the Londone one a few days ago. Really not sure sure about that part and not sure even where to get help...

[ariel]

http://www.welshpoolairport.co.uk/breakdown.html

(plus fee for the medical)

[BroomstickPilot]

Plane Crazy,

The following is a copy of a post I wrote for the benefit of Bakoo, you too may find it helpful.

Bakoo,

I note that some people have suggested you should do your PPL in the UK. I disagree: I would say don't. Go to the US. You will not need to get your FAA PPL exchanged for a UK one at all. You can fly perfectly legally in the UK on an FAA PPL indefinitely, because both the UK and the USA are ICAO countries, (ICAO means International Commercial Aviation Organisation, a body set up by the UN to regulate commercial aviation internationally). ICAO countries automatically recognise one another's PPL licences. You only need the licence of the country in which you intend to fly if your intend becoming a professional pilot. Even then, you can go direct from your FAA PPL straight to a JAA ATPL, without having to get a JAA PPL.

I have just revalidated my British PPL in the UK after many years of being 'expired'. I had thought it would cost no more than £4,000 and take a couple of months. In fact, despite being available to fly full time, despite having all the money required on tap and despite being based in the relatively much drier South of England, it still took 20 months and cost in excess of £7,000!

Admittedly, some of this was due to poor instructors: I walked out of two clubs last summer and had to start all over again at a new club each time.

By far the worst obstacle, however, was UK weather. At least two thirds of my bookings were cancelled from that cause alone. In 2004, between July and December I booked a whole week's flying six times and cancelled it all, one day at a time; and that was in 'dry' Central Southern England, Northern weather was much worse!

My advice would be to go to the US, where you will have an FAA PPL licence within six weeks. (It doesn't matter which country issues the PPL as long as it is an ICAO country, and the USA is an ICAO country). Then at least, you will have a valid licence 'in the bag'. It won't be a holiday; it will be damned hard work, but enjoyable and worthwhile.

You should then be prepared to put in a further several hours at a British club on your return before being allowed to exercise the privileges of your licence. You will need this to learn to cope with UK weather and our extra complex airspace and busy radio. It sounds convoluted, but will be very much quicker and cheaper in the long run.

If you must train at a UK club or FTO, I would say do it in the Winter. The weather between October and March is much more stable and it is easier to control a light aeroplane without being thrown about by thermal activity. You will also have much less flying cancelled owing to bad weather.

Forgive me mentioning this, but since your training budget is so tight, are you sure you are going to have enough money available to keep yourself 'current' after your return. Don't answer this question on this thread; just recognise that this will be an issue to which you need to have an answer that satisfies you.

Good luck: I hope you are successful.

Broomstick.

[On the Spot]

have a look at - http://www.aopa.org/tsa_rule/ - which explains the hoops you have to jump through. You will need fingerprints taken - by the sherrif if you are in the US. You need the necessary forms completed by your chosen flight school to enable you to complete the TSA online system. Don't know how that affects you changing your visa once there but it allows you to apply for one if outside the US - and is killing off alien flight training in my view.
There was a full article on pprune posted by naples air centre you might still find it.

Oh and the savings in landing fees will more than cover the equipment you need. You might find it difficult to get the UK books in the US if you do the CAA syllabus. I currently fly in the UK on my FAA licence which although it is "valid" as an icao compliant licence does cause some complications with less knowledgeable rental organisations and particularly currently getting permission from teh French authorities to fly G-reg across the FIR to France.

[edwardholgate]

Hi Plane Crazy..

I did my PPL in the USA and thought it was very good training, however, if your intending to fly when you return back to the UK, BE AWARE. Very few UK clubs will actually let you fly their a/c since they feel that they have lost money that you gave to the US and you have skipped the 'Weather Drag Curve' e.t.c. of the UK. They also will make you go through practically everything with 1 of their instructors before they put you in for a skills test with an examiner (For the UK JAR-FCL licence). They will make you sit all the written exams and RT practical but it is worth it. The UK is very different in terms of airspace and RT workload than the US and the phrase's and general terminology is very different also.

I am converting my FAA licence to the JAR equivalent and I have done at least 10 hours flying in the Warrior (I trained on the cherokee in the US) from Blackpool airport. The CFI actually says that my flying is actually very good and was just commenting on minor issues.

The 2 biggest things to get your head around are 1. Air Traffic and 2. Airspace then your away

Good Luck ED:) :D :ok:

[gcolyer]

Edward

Thats because you are converting from FAA to JAA. It is easier to get your JAA in the U.S and then apply for FAA based on your JAA.

I got my JAA PPL in Florida. When i got home my local club where not pleased that i did not get my PPL with them and tried to make me do another skills test. I put my foot down and told them i will do a check ride and that is it, as I have a valid JAA PPL i don't see why they should want to make me do another skills test. Some clubs will try it on and others won't, you just need to stand up to them.

As i still fly in the U.S from time to time i applied to the FAA for an Airmans Certificate based on my JAA PPL. it cost a grand total of £38 which was payable to the CAA!! The FAA actualy gave me an FAA license which is valid as long as my JAA license is valid.

I was not asked to any exams or test flights, just for a few signatures.

[mcgoo]

Ditto, I did JAA PPL in Florida, came back, did a 1 hour checkride at Coventry and got signed off straightaway

[Julian]

Edward,

See posts above but if the club you are presently flying with is making you do all the written exams and a skills test then I would turn around and find another.

Its needless and they are spending YOUR money that you could be using doing some flying for yourself...or probably by the time you tot up whats its going to cost you for that lot ...buy yourself a share!!!!

Julian.

[Human Factor]

The biggest hidden cost:

You can gain a JAA PPL with a minimum of 45 hours. It is not guaranteed that you will achieve it in that time so be prepared to pay for more if necessary. We normally suggest 50-55 hours as a norm. The 45 hour minimum depends on good continuity (at least an hour a week - not an issue if you're doing it full time in one go), good weather (not a big issue in the USA, except in hurricane season :} ) and personal ability.

[BroomstickPilot]

Everybody,

Be aware that if you either train in the USA or buy into an 'N' Reg aeroplane you will be attracting the spleen of many in the UK GA industry. They are invariably professionals who know all the ropes and also know that you do not.

Some years ago, I chanced to remark to someone that I intended buying into an 'N' Reg aeroplane and was told that you are only allowed to use an 'N' Reg aeroplane for six months of every year. This was clearly a lie designed to disuade me from going 'N' reg.

If you have an FAA PPL, you do not need to swap it for a JAA PPL on your return home. Both Britain and the USA are ICAO countries and all ICAO countries recognise one another's PPLs. The only time you need to hold the licence of the country in which your aeroplane is registered is if you hold a commercial licence.

In short, there is no reason why you should not fly for the rest of your life in Britain in 'G' Reg aeroplanes on an FAA licence. You do not have to undergo written exams or a skill test. Any club that tells you this is committing a fraud on you. Believe me it goes on. Don't be fooled.

Broomstick.

[IO540]

Be aware that if you either train in the USA or buy into an 'N' Reg aeroplane you will be attracting the spleen of many in the UK GA industry. They are invariably professionals who know all the ropes and also know that you do not.

Cynicism is an art best not practiced on the internet, Broomstick ;)

Actually, if I may correct, the UK automatically validates ICAO (which includes FAA) PPLs for a G-reg, worldwide operation, but this is rare and I don't know of another ICAO state which does the same.

The USA is perhaps the closest, making a piggyback FAA PPL (based on a JAA or another PPL) easy to get. Most European states don't do this.

It's quite suprising the CAA has put in such a concession, IMHO. Technically, it's very reasonable (because the FAA PPL is no easier to get, in flying skills terms, than the JAA one, and its written material is completely adequate for the job) but it must be a thorn in the side of UK flying schools.

[edwardholgate]

Its needless and they are spending YOUR money that you could be using doing some flying for yourself...or probably by the time you tot up whats its going to cost you for that lot ...buy yourself a share!!!!

Julian I understand what your saying, but I found it very much different in the UK to what it is in the States (Airspace & the like) so it is in my best interests to be fully converse with the UK and I think it is foolish to simply just do a checkride and then be cleared to fly around in an alien environment. But thats my opinion.. you might be much more advanced than myself and I am quite proactive with regards to airmanship. But I am a motorglider instructor in the UK based from Samlesbury in Lancashire and have nearly 300Hrs

Cheers:ok:
ED

[edwardholgate]

Im very interested in these articles:

Out of curiousity..could someone please state the EXACT requirements for flying in the UK with an American FAA Licence...I repeat FAA not JAA thankyou guys!!;) :O :ok:

[Julian]

Ed,

No problem, it was your statement :

Very few UK clubs will actually let you fly their a/c since they feel that they have lost money that you gave to the US and you have skipped the 'Weather Drag Curve' e.t.c. of the UK. They also will make you go through practically everything with 1 of their instructors before they put you in for a skills test with an examiner (For the UK JAR-FCL licence).

That led me to believe that you had been told you HAD to do it. If you are doing it for yourself then thats fair enough - its recognising your own personal limits/comfort zone.

I have only heard of 1 instance of someone getting told he would need extra training, i think a figure of 15 hrs was mentioned, when the instructor had found out he had a US PPL and had not even flown with him yet - he walked away. I came back from the US with a 'whopping' 62.5 hrs :) and did a checkout with instructor at Bournemouth who was happy to cut me loose afterwards. I did the same at WLAC and was signed off.

The radio and airspace is different but not that much, I found the easiest(and cheapest hehe) way to get used to it was bum a lift with another pilot and just observe.

Good luck with exams and GFT!

J.

[Kaptain Kremen]

quote from edwardholgate

"BE AWARE. Very few UK clubs will actually let you fly their a/c since they feel that they have lost money that you gave to the US "

As a school owner i find this a bit harsh. More likely there are a few schools like this, not most.
If a FAA PPL licence holder comes to us, a checkout is done with no pre concieved ideas of standards - it is very individual as to the standard and we have had a mixed bag of both excellent and poor standards. A checkout lasts as long as is required to be the standard required, simple.
i find it hard to believe that most clubs will not let you fly solo in order to earn cash from the PPL holder.
KK

[172driver]

Im very interested in these articles:

Out of curiousity..could someone please state the EXACT requirements for flying in the UK with an American FAA Licence...I repeat FAA not JAA thankyou guys!!;) :O :ok:

Simple answer: none. The CAA recognise the FAA license and you're good to go w/o any further ado. The only limitation is day-VFR only if flying a G-reg. On an N-reg you can obviously do whatever your license permits (i.e. night VFR on a normal PPL, as this is included in the US).

HTH

[edwardholgate]

Thanks Guys

What kind of airspace were you guy's flying in when you went to the USA? Because I couldnt picture myself jumping straight into a checkride when coming back into the UK and be expected to perform..Cheers:ok: :)

[edwardholgate]

Thanks Guys

What kind of airspace were you guy's flying in when you went to the USA? Because I couldnt picture myself jumping straight into a checkride when coming back into the UK and be expected to perform..Cheers:ok: :)

Also I did my ppl in Nevada, out of an uncontrolled airport based on a Unicom freq. Therefore you just announced what you were doing and never had to report at requested positions by ATC or join in a specified way. You didnt have to call for Taxi or anything like that either. You just fit in wih the flow of the normal traffic pattern and that was it!

Not like back here

[edwardholgate]

Its irrelevant now, but to convert to the UK JAR licence, do I need to complete all the exams or just the skills test..(Just got Nav paper to do this weekend):ok: :-Sorry to be a pain with all these ?'s

[Julian]

Ed,

Was flying out of Long Beach which is Class B airspace. Very busy airport with 5 runways shared with the big boys as well as the military in the C17s!

Frequent flights during training into other busy Class B as well as transits in the VFR corridor over LAX, San Diego, etc plus the odd couple of jollys out to places such as Palm Springs.

The radio prepares you for anything as it is VERY busy with you sometimes feelng that clearances arent so much given to you as hurled at you :) The weather is also very changable on the West Coast and not all blue skies.

J.