Ryanair low approach at EICK

[aidanf]

This one has been causing quite a stir in the local media today. A Ryanair inbound to Cork at approx 1800hrs (don't know where from) on Sunday night (June 4th) got several people's knickers in a big twist due to it's low approach.
Now I happen to live about 12 miles WNW of the airport and I understand that 17 was active at the time. This thing flew over me (relaxing in garden) and gave quite a feckin shock!! Couldn't say what height the bird was at, but she was bloody low (bear in mind that I live about 10 feet amsl and EICK is around 450amsl), and way off standard approach (never seen an approach for 17 route over my place, and wouldn't like to be on board for the required alignment turn a few minutes later). Some guys living between me and the airport quoted as saying she flew '20 feet above me roof' - a gross exaggeration, but she was certainly way below normal, and WAY off approach path. Ryanair's response was 'we're not concerned' - well ye mightn't be, but I feckin was at the time. (Not a RYR basher - actually use them often enough).
Anyone know what the **** was going on? :confused:

[cargo boy]

From The Irish Examiner (http://tinyurl.com/p7qxk)

05 June 2006

Ryanair plane was 20 feet above houses, residents claim

By Niall Murray and Olivia Kelleher

RESIDENTS have said a Ryanair plane flew dangerously low over their homes on its way to land at Cork Airport yesterday.

One man living in the Halldene estate in Bishopstown said the aircraft, believed to have been inbound from London Stansted, passed no more than 20 feet over his neighbour’s roof.

“I was at my kitchen window when I saw it turning outside, and it was dangerously low. I really thought we were in trouble.”

Denis O’Keeffe, living less than half a mile away in Cedar Grove, said he and family members were in the back garden when the plane flew over at 5.50pm.

“It was like a thunderous noise but very sudden, it was about the height of two houses off the ground. It was turning at a 90-degree angle heading for the airport,” he said.

Several complaints were received by the duty office at Cork Airport last night but a Ryanair spokesperson said the company had no concern about the flight.

Bishopstown is in the flight path for many services landing at Cork but residents insisted this plane was much lower than aircraft usually fly over their homes.

[sky9]

So a "Ryanair spokesperson said the company had no concern about the flight". I presume from that statement that they have already pulled the Flight Recorder and done a full analysis. They sure are on the ball in Ryanair and got safety as their first priority.

[magicembraers]

well i actually happen to live 1 mile from the threshold of the runway, and i did see the low approach. it was nothing spectacular, believe me. yes, it was lower than normal and it was a very abbrieviated approach, but the rubbish about it being '20 feet above peoples houses' is just people with no knowledge of flying overreacting. in short, nothing major and the plane was NEVER in any visible danger. people must also factor in the airport is on top of a 500ft hill, and the city is down in a valley.....

[delwy]

It is always possible, in this day of 45 mile finals and radar controlled approaches, that THIS AIRCRAFT DID A VISUAL WITH A SHORT FINAL. THE HORROR OF IT!! Otherwise said, maybe it was just a pilot flying an aircraft in a way that people don't see too often (and many modern pilots could'nt do even if they wanted to!!).

[aidanf]

Guys - as the originator of this thread I've gotta say that I'm still not fully happy with the replies. By rough guesswork the a/c was tracking something like 100 - i.e. coming from somewhere WNW of EICK. Now, pretty much all RYR flights heading for RW17 originate in Dublin or London - the only airports WNW of EICK would be Kerry or Shannon (no RYR flights from either). If RW35 was active then the approach is normally along the coast, turning in around the Sovereigns, South of Kinsale. Wherever this guy/girl was coming from it would appear, to me, that they were way off track and were forced to make some last minute adjustments. As for a 'visual with short final' I think if you knew the geography and proximity of the reports to EICK you too would realise that this was NOT as simple as you claim. C'mon, someone out there must know something - put me out of my misery :\

[aw8565]

On second thoughts maybe he was checking visually it really was Cork? Ok it was Eirjet but you see my point...

[5711N0205W]

Guys - as the originator of this thread I've gotta say that I'm still not fully happy with the replies
OK, I'll bite, what sort of reply do you feel you're owed?
The responses so far seem to indicate several legitimate, normal and non dangerous possibilities, will you only be happy when someone supports a sensationalist theory?

[SLFguy]

people must also factor in the airport is on top of a 500ft hill, and the city is down in a valley.....


That makes no f**kin sense at all!.....if the airport was in a valley and the city on the hill then yes.......:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[hafez]

Seems like it is the week for low flying aircraft. This morning EIN711 was very low passing over blackrock/ballinlough. Got a bit of a shock when I was walking up the road and saw it at about 1300ft when usually at the point I am at they are at 2500. Ive never seen an aircraft route the way it did either. I'd say the ryanair aircraft was at the same height and people were just not used to it. Ah well, at least it gave people a nice shock on their June bank holiday weekend:}

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Another bonkers thread about RYR.

"thunderous noise":eek:

"the height of two houses off the ground":eek:

"turning at a 90-degree angle heading for the airport":eek:

Don't tell me, the landing was "hard, but fast"

Good work lads;)

[aidanf]

The fact that it was a RYR a/c is merely incidental - had it been Aer Lingus / Aer Arann or any other, it would have received the same reaction. Don't assume that every thread which contains Ryanair is a DIRECT stab at them.
Do you want a hand getting your toys back in the pram? :}


As (to 5711) for me not being happy unless someone supports a sensationalist reply - not at all. I'm pretty sure that there's a rationale explanation, but this far I haven't heard it.

I'd expect, and enjoy, the biting in JB but not in R&N

[EI-MICK]

All the last week aircraft are taking vectors to a point and going visual when near the airport,nothing wrong with this.I live 5 Miles north/east and low flying aircraft of all airlines have come in low on the base leg for RW17 over the last few days.The sensible reply is that it was a visual approach.I think DELWY's post sums this one up best.

''a sudden thunderous sound??? this fella says,ha he must think its an F-18.

[WindSheer]

Lads, lads, lads.

Dont know EICK at all, but could there not have been a last minute change of runway or something, with a low alt visual flown??
By the way can anyone supply the weather for the time concerned?

Honestly.....

[EI-JIM]

Hi lads,
I saw this approach on Sunday.I'm located 1 mile N of Runway 17,noticed the 737 make his initial approach but he/she was too far to the left of the centreline on short finals presumably from a visual approach as the weather was scorchio with blue skies.The Ryanair had to go around so I went upstairs to see what he would do.He passed over the field didn't climb,so was maybe 800 feet,turned west,then out of view for a short while behind neighbours houses.Next into view in a tight turn to bring him back onto a very short finals over the sunbathing Bishopstown locals,another tight turn back onto the centreline with half a mile to the tresh-hold of Runway 17.With all the turns & slowish speed he climbed a little to come down on the glideslope,so I'd guestimate he was at 500 to 600 feet over Bishopstown.Far from 20 feet above rooftops but none the less very impressive,especially with the winglets.The passengers got their money's worth,nice flying.:ok:

[hafez]

EI-JIM
Presumed it was a go-around actually, Might have been one today with EIN711 too :p

[mikip]

I didn't realise until now that any Daily Mail reporters lived in Cork

[corsair]

I didn't realise until now that any Daily Mail reporters lived in Cork

They are everywhere now that we have been graced new 'Irish Daily Mail' just for little Irelanders! Actually it just sounds like a nice tight visual approach. For those not in the know they're quicker, hence RYR interest, and more fun. Last time I got a jumpseat in a Ryan it was a visual, with the GPWS harping on about the glideslope all the way down.
I saw something similar once near Dublin though. Sitting in a factory canteen with big picture windows just by the OM for 10. People were used to airliners passing by. But one day the canteen hubbub was silenced and everyone stared when a Ryanair 737 first appeared to heading straight for the factory then banked hard left to get on the centreline. It was mighty impressive.

[d2k73]

Anyone ever think its the clear weather making the aircraft look closer than they actually are!? I was out the back on saturday night watching the planes fly over and I couldnt believe how low they were, the probably were they same hight they usually fly over but the clear weather made them look alot lower!

[thirtysomething]

hi,

What other than some seat of the pants flying could be the motivation for such approaches. I mean Cork is not exactly bustling with traffic so its not like they were slotting into a Q for the active runway ?

[aidanf]

Well, a go-around would make a lot more sense .. with the a/c routing west after abandoning finals. The resultant low-flight circuit, from the west, over my own place and the residents of Bishopstown would fit in with this proposition - however, how one could get into a position where a go-around was deemed necessary (under the CAVOK conditions which prevailed at EICK that day) is totally beyond me .... but that, as they say, is a completely different matter.


ps - on an unrelated matter (and I know this is going to sound like RYR-bashing), on a recent flight with them, the CC announcements were made by someone for whom English was not her first language. I can safely say that I was not alone in being unable to understand one word of her safety brief (and all subsequent announcements). Does this not pose a potential safety issue in the result of an emergency?

[JW411]

aidanf:

"How one could get into a position where a go-around was deemed necessary (under the CAVOK conditions which prevailed at EICK that day) is totally beyond me".

Well then, I don't think you have thought too deeply about this or perhaps you don't know Cork airport at all?

There is no parallel taxiway between runway 25 and the threshold of runway 35. This means that every aircraft that lands on runway 17 has to backtrack the runway to the intersection (unless they land very short). Therefore, if the previous aircraft takes a long time to get off the runway then a go-around is quite likely to happen.

I have almost had to do this myself on more than one occasion and I don't work for Ryanair.

It would be very nice if someone would give them a nice parallel taxiway for Christmas!

[Flame]

Can anyone tell me ... why is it, that Ryanair appear to have been the only airline to take delivery of the B737-800 Aerobatic :p :p :p

[aidanf]

Fair point JW411 :(
I know there was one planned as part of the current development up there, but I think that went the way of the other airbridges, movement of cargo centre, etc. ..... etc.

[-8AS]

I refer to the posts regarding glide slope warnings from the EGPWS.

Glide slope warnings do not necessarily mean the aircraft was doing anything dangerous ie below the glide slope (unless the said aircraft was attempting to fly an ILS in IMC). Two scenarios spring to mind, first with the crew becoming visual with PAPI's and them being set to a slightly different angle to the glide slop (glide slopes will tend bring an aircraft in 'higher' than PAPI's). Thus an aircraft can be descending below glide slope indications (normally after DA) as the PAPI path is folllowed. Once the 2/3rd 'dot' threshold is reached one will get a 'Glide Slope' warning. I admit, not very common but does happen. Most occurances at dual military/civil airports where fast jets are based and PAPI's can be set as low as 2.5 degrees.

Second scenario, when conducting visual approaches it is always a good plan to back up the approach with all available nav aids. If performing a visual approach to a runway with no approach aids, it is sometimes possible to use the recipricle runways ILS backcourse to give guidance. This is not an approved method as it is illegal to fly back course approaches under JAR however it can aid in situational awareness. Having the ILS for the other runway tuned can give 'Glide Slope' warnings also.

Sorry, bit off the topic of the thread but I do find it interesting that any post about FR always attracts comments from peolpe who will make safety judgements with little facts.

And as a note to a previous post, I have not heard of an FR aircraft running off the end of a Runway. Please elaborate.

[ATIS]

I was there, heard and saw everything, NO BIG DEAL.

Pilot asked tower for a right hand orbit. Have to admit that I thought the guy was a few miles away on finals. However he suddenly appeared in sight and he initiated the orbit just before passing over the threshold.

Runway was clear for him to land. Whether the cabin wasn't secure for landing or whether he was stabilised in time, or other factors, I cannot say, the pilot didn't mention anything.

After flying a bad weather circuit (yes it was a beautiful evening in cork) he landed about 3-4 minutes later.

I'd be useless as a journo

[wombat13]

It's all a conspiracy. Cork ATC, Ryanair, etc etc have conspired to keep it quiet.

Or it is nothing at all.

Simplest answer is most often the right one.

Just because an approach is non-standard does not make it a story.

The Wombat

PS, I hate Ryanair

[rodthesod]

Ok so maybe he was just a tad fast on his approach and opted for an orbit to kill his speed. No big deal and better than touching down hot and risking overheated brakes or even an over-run. Visual straight-in or base joins are not the easiest things to judge if you don't regularly practice them. I don't work for Ryanair either but know Cork very well.
rts

[JW411]

I well remember arriving at Prestwick off the Atlantic one beautiful morning from New York. I was learning to fly the DC-10 at the time. As a ball-park rule we used to start our descent at a distance equal to 3 times the first two digits of the cruising altitude PLUS 10 miles to slow down.

Guess who forgot to allow 10 miles to slow down? "Sir" in the other seat said nothing and let me get on with it. A bit later on it became obvious to me that I wasn't going to make it and suddenly the penny dropped! An orbit around Ayrshire took care of the problem and the only thing broken was my pride.

I asked "Sir" why he hadn't say anything and he responded by saying that I would never do THAT again! He was right. In my defence I only had 8,000 hours at the time.

[Joe le Taxi]

-8AS; I have never come across a PAPI at a major western airport which significantly differed from the glideslope. Of course the larger the aeroplane, the more the eye height will be above the antenna (by the gear) - this is probably the discrepancy you perceive.

Also, I have never seen anyone use the backcourse of an ILS on a modern a/c - there is so much else available for use (eg extend the centreline, beacon, looking out of the window!) The only caveat would be circling from an ILS appr and the briefing should include inhibiting G/S warnings on the downwind, and (re the former point) maybe your military field example, but if the PAPIs are set at 2.5 deg, then following the glideslope would be my preference, rather than duck down at DH to catch and follow the lower profile.

Not least, IMHO it is bad practice to have a GPWS warning blaring continuously without doing anything about it. You obviously think differently, but I disagree.

[wombat13]

I asked "Sir" why he hadn't say anything and he responded by saying that I would never do THAT again! He was right. In my defence I only had 8,000 hours at the time.

Tis this kind of comment that makes it easier for a lowly peasant PPL such as myself. :ok:

[few@two]

Not that I am biased in any way but has it occurred to everyone that he was probably cleared for the visual approach, adopting standard procedure, until establishing on the glide min clearance is 500' above all ground buildings, and prob turning final at 4/3 miles.... nothing completely shocking, comp policy in VMC is to be configured at 500' thats it, so i would imagine he was prob in the slot, maybe a little tight...:)

[woodpecker]

CAVOK, Bad weather circuit? Why?

I presume they don't have a SESMA program in Ryanair, mind you that costs money to run.

[BOAC]

Ah well - this has now gone the way of all threads. Time to shut.:ugh: