Employment prospects in OZ GA.

[hoopdreams]

Gday,

I just discovered this forum, and I was hoping to really learn about the aviation industry downunder. I seem to know more about the situation in the US because I frequently visit their forums.

Basically I would like to pursue a career as a pilot. I know its a rough road for a lot of pilots, but I was just wondering if a pilot could make a living other then flying heavy iron. Of course I wouldn't hesitate to take a jet job, but the reality is that airline jobs are fiercly competative, so I want know what other flying opportunities there are. Are there opportunities for Australian pilots abroad? Are CASA certificates accepted in Europe or US for instance? What sort of salary range is there in OZ GA flying jobs?

If there are some GA pilots that could point me in the right direction I would love to hear from you. Thanks for taking the time to read my post.


Cheers

Tristan

[hoopdreams]

Hey sorry guys I just found a thread on instructing which gave me a good insight. However, I am still open to any views, especially non intructing jobs.

Cheers

Tristan

[AerocatS2A]

You can certainly make a living. It's just a matter of whether it is enough of a living.

You can earn towards $100,000 in some GA companies if you stay long enough to get in to the check and training side of things. Or around $80,000 otherwise (in the same select GA companies.)

[Aussie_Pilot]

Me too me too me tooo :D

I 'd like to know what kind of GA aviation opportunity i may have in Australia...

I'm earning the CPL in Brisbane at the moment i will definitly proceed with ATPL Teory ...

I am not planning to stay here for ever and get an airline job who allow me to live here..but i wish to stay as long as i can build a good fly-resumè...

Is it possibile to find job and where's the best location?

Thanks... Carmine

[rmcdonal]

Is it possibile to find job and where's the best location?
"Head North son, head North."

[Chocks Away]

While it's good you're posting on here, be abit smarter and one step ahead of the others.
Do you know how many "Wannabee" pilots read this worldwide? It will astound you and it only takes 1 resume to be ahead of you, to miss a job, so research in stealth, use resources available (ie Fridays Australian, Pprune Search option...)... use the phone... talk and visit people face to face so they can judge your character, if short of experience.
Keep a log of Who/Where/When/Contact numbers/CV sent? etc... be diligent and KEEP Updating your CV!!!
I cracked my last job well before anyone knew about it. The job wasn't advertised either!
It hasn't been better for jobs in the Asia Pacific area for along time, from outback singles to widebody jets... what ever "floats your boat"
Happy Landings:ok:

P.S. A tip: If not already sold out, Flight Internationals' last few Issues were "World Airline Directories"...:}

[M.25]

The pilots GA award is HERE (http://www.afap.org.au/files/PTT7I6P4EP/GA%20Award%20%20as%20at%2031%20Mar06.pdf).

I would rate the chances of getting into an airline higher than earning 80-100,000 in GA!

[AerocatS2A]

Captains with companies like Surveillance Australia can earn over $80,000 (including allowances.) I realise that it is the top of the GA ladder, but it is GA all the same. Then there is RFDS and Aerorescue etc. You can certainly live comfortably in GA.

[Woomera]

And there are a few GA companies that do pay the Award, operate well maintained aircraft and provide career development and progression.

Your mission, should you decide to accept, is to locate those companies.

This post may self immolate in five seconds.........

:} :} :} :}

Sunny Woomera

[hoopdreams]

Thanks for the info, it's quite a contrast to the negatively surounding this industry. All I hear about OZ GA is that pilots are flying for nothing and even paying companies too build their hours up. I guess it's important to realise that not every pilot has the exact same ambitions or goals.

I would love to fly jets, but if that doesn't happen I'm not going to cry myself to sleep every night, I just want to know that there are other options. I don't have great aspirations to make a 6 figure salary, I just want to enjoy my work and do ok:ok: .

Cheers

Tristan

[neville_nobody]

You have to remember that the minimum requirements for companies that pay the award is going to be higher. RFDS you would need 1000 multi command plus remote area night etc. Even bugsmasher companies that pay the award will still need a 1000-1500 hours with a few hundred multi engine. Some of them even want 500 ME command to comply with mining requirements.

Surveillance you would need at least a 1000 hours with some night experience thrown in there too. Pearl would require a few 1000 hours with 500 multi.

Most of these jobs you will be living in the bush too not major cities on the east coast!

[hoopdreams]

It beats going to the same office job day in day out.

[AerocatS2A]

Surveillance you would need at least a 1000 hours with some night experience thrown in there too. Pearl would require a few 1000 hours with 500 multi.

Surveillance require 1500 hours, and 3 instrument renewels, 70 hours night command with preference given to those with 100 hours night command.

[Centaurus]

India, SE Asia, Japan. All you need to get a RH seat in a Boeing or Airbus is a CPL and 200 hours plus of course being a local. In Australia the situation has never changed in 30 years. A huge oversupply of pilots means the lousiest operators can pick and choose which means even with 1000 hours you are behind the mob. Hence the absolute desperation faced by new CPL's who are forced to almost fly for free or go on the dole. PNG used to be a mecca for new CPL with 200 hours. But the oversupply of pilots in Australia has steadily pushed up the minimum PNG operators requirements to at least 1000 hours. The insurance companies are partly to blame but if pilots were in really short supply in PNG just watch the insurance premiums drop.
To get an idea of the oversupply of CPL's in OZ just look at the number of three and four bar "captains" hanging around the coffee machines at the flying schools!

[tinpis]

India, SE Asia, Japan. All you need to get a RH seat in a Boeing or Airbus is a CPL and 200 hours plus of course being a local.

:uhoh: We wont mention whats in the other seat http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/shocked2.gif

[bushy]

The flood of newly qualified cpl's are an embarssment to Australian aviation. There are a lot of keen, capable young people who have geat enthusiasm, and potential, who have paid a lot of money to flying schools, and done a lot of work to get where they are.
Unfortunately there are hardly any jobs for them today, and this has been the case for at least two decades, or more.
Only a few have been able to get airline jobs and many quit trying after a few months or a few years, when they realise for themselves what the facts actually are. Quite a few eventually get a job in GA,(in the first two years) flying mainly piston singles, and light twins after a few years. Some never get that first job. Some go on to airlines (about 5%) after GA flying for up to 10 years.

There are a few good jobs in GA, and some pilots make a good living flying GA aircraft for life, usually in the outback. And they usually have special skills, or attitudes that others do not have. (like low level survey, Chief pilot, lame/pilot, maintenance controller, HAMic or career bush pilot etc.) Those who talk about "clapped out Cessnas" and things like that do not get far. If it is "clapped out" you should not be flying it, and should not be there. A negative attitude is does not help anyone, and is not welcomed by aviators anywhere.

Going to outback Australia is usually a huge culture shock for most city dwellers, and going from an outback town to an aboriginal community in the back of beyond (like 700 km from the nearest town) is more so. Civilisation stops at the blue mountains. This is where most of Australias flying takes place. The roads are not built yet.

Most of the flying out here is done in piston egined aircraft. Only the Govt financed ones, or the gold mines have turboprops.We see a bizjet about once a year, and they do not go beyond the major centres.

The flood of newbie pilots has encouraged some city flying schools to bring shiny,crosshired, newly painted, 30 year old aircraft to outback towns, so they can sell training, and ICUS to young hopefuls in the cities. So we now get a continual turnover of beginners, looking for jobs, working for nothing, and undercutting the career GA pilots. So there are not so many worthwhile GA jobs any more. Some of the lesser operators are just as ruthless as the pilots and they set out to exploit one another. So operators no longer pay for endorsements as the pilot will leave soon, because he never wanted to be there. in the first place.This is sad. The pilots, operators (some of them) and the travelling public deserve better than this.

Newly qualified cpl's are usually out of their depth for the first year of outback flying (I had four bent nose locker doors to prove it. All bent when they were left unlatched by commercial pilots in their first year) and you have to look after them. One pilot had the rear door of a C206 come open in flight and twist the fuselage. He did not report it. He is now a training captain with an airline in Australia.
The accident figures show that most of the accidents happen to inexperienced pilots. So, to provide a safe, reliable service to people of the outback, you need a mix of experienced, and low time pilots. Responsible people who want to be there, and will work to make things better and safer. People who have a wealth of essential local knowledge. People who plan to still be there next year. Not a continual turnover of transient GPS followers.

I usually make myself most unpopular with post like this, because there are a lot of pretenders out there who do not want to acknowledge the facts as they are.

And it is not just GA. Some of the airlines are making money with a continual turnover of new FO,s who do not get the opportunity to continue on.

I believe the Multi crew licence is highly desirable, as the airline wannabies will be heading for the airlines, and not having to spend time in GA, where they do not want to be.

I feel sorry for the young pilots who have such uncertainty, and ashamed of the flying schools that are exploiting them.

[hoopdreams]

Some never get that first job. Some go on to airlines (about 5%) after GA flying for up to 10 years.

You mean only 5% of CPLs striving for the airlines actually make it? Are there heaps of CPLs who have the quals to fly jets, but don't get in because of the sheer numbers? What if one got type rated?

Would pilots get knocked back by the airlines for medical reasons even if they had a class 1 medical?

What is the differential factor between the people of the 5% and the people in the 95%?

Are there better prospects for OZ pilots in the US or Europe?

Cheers

Tristan

[rmcdonal]

Great post Bushy:ok: :ok:

[barney01]

Think of GA aviation (and most other careers) as a pyramid. At the top of the heap is a very few people getting 80-100k. Ask around to find out how many CPL's have jobs outside the industry to make a living wage.

[Chadzat]

Well done bushy-at least there is someone willing to tell it how it is.

After having just been there done that with CPL training, it is quite amazing to transition through the "bulls##t selling" of the flying schools when you are pre ppl about "how wonderful flying is and because you have trained here you will be instantly employable" blah blah, then when you start thinking about "what next after cpl" the veil of secrecy gets torn away as you make contacts and they let you know in no uncertain terms what the industry is REALLY like.

I am currently in that period of limbo- just after cpl, just before first job and like every other fresh green cpl am very confused which path to tread. But I am still motivated, and I can tell you that there have been times when I have thought "whats the point? Its just a giant headf##k dealing with some people in aviation".

hoopdreams: from my extremely limited experience the only advice I can give you is before you start training-ask yourself if you have the self motivation to really succeed. No one other than you and your mummy want to see you succeed in aviation.

If you do decide to bite the bullet, then throughout your early training (before you get a bit aviation-wise and get contacts) be as cynical as you can with what the flying schools are trying to sell you. They assume that you have no idea what the real life of a fresh cpl pilot is after training, and 99% probably don't. Really get as most as you can out of your training as once you get a signature on the dotted line of your cpl licence the FS doesn't want to know about you anymore, you have no more cash to offer, so they have no more time for you. :ugh:

[hoopdreams]

Hi,

Thanks for the advise. I know that the industry isn't for the faint hearted. I remember there was a 7:30 report (or some show like that) which did a story on the pilot who was killed in that plane crash in Queensland, I think the aircraft was a 16 seater or something. They were doing IFR approach in poor visibility and flew into a mountain killing everyone onboard. The girlfriend of one of the pilots said that they sold their house to fund his dream to get into the airlines. She mentioned that he was basically flying for nothing to get the desired hours and that these GA operaters are using the 'airline job dream' factor as means of exploitation.

It makes me think that the only reason that these companies are doing it is because they can. Which is scary when you think how unethical people can be. The only reason we don't have slavery in this country is because there laws which forbid it.

I really don't know how to look at this desired path of mine, but I feel that I just have to go for it anyways. If I don't, I know I'll always be looking up in the sky wondering...
It may be that I'll just fly as a hobby, but I'm not in the position to make that decision yet. Thanks everyone for you valuable imput.

Cheers

[Continental-520]

I could say that the attitude displayed in your post doesn't help, but indeed, you are telling it like it is.

I still feel that attitude will determine your fate, though, no matter what state the industry (or any phase of life one goes through) takes.

After all, I would be willing to bet that a reasonable proportion of the guys you've hired over the years may not have "wanted to be there" initially, but once they adapt to the culture shock that you talk about, they end up loving it.

I'm a newly hatched CPL holder, and I didn't want to leave home either when I left. Who does? Who wants to leave a comfort zone, especially when headed into the unknown?

I didn't want to be there either, when I got my first job, but I still was determined to and feel that I gave the operator the best I knew how to do at the time with my minimal experience. Indeed, I needed looking after (that hasn't changed) and one of the first things I learned was that there is lots of important stuff that the schools don't teach you.

So, I'm not saying you're the type, but I hate it when operators consider pilots as just there for one purpose: themselves, cause not all of them are. In fact, the majority of people that I've had the privilege of working with/alongside have been there doing their utmost for the operator, cause they know in the process they will go far themselves.

As for now, I still haven't gotten home yet, but there's no way I'd have a better time than what I've had since I left. If only I had known it then.


520. :)

[The Bunglerat]

I feel sorry for the young pilots who have such uncertainty, and ashamed of the flying schools that are exploiting them.

I agree wholeheartedly with your post Bushy, even if it isn't what certain people want to hear. However (and I'm only being the Devil's advocate here), would you suggest that CASA places a limit on how many pilots may be permitted to fly, and how many schools should be permitted to offer training services?

The number of schools churning out CPL holders like some kind of sausage factory, are resulting in an ever-spiralling deterioration in opportunities within the industry. Yes, it's true that from time to time you read the headlines "looming pilot shortage," but it's either in some 3rd world corner, or referring to a shortage of EXPERIENCED pilots. The fact remains (at least here in Oz), that there will never be a shortage of pilots.

Having said that, we live in a capitalist, free market society. Anyone is entitled to pursue their dream of being a pilot if they so desire, and the various flying schools are only catering to that desire. I too cringe at some of the glam marketing gimmicks they employ to entice wannabe's in the door, but again they are only catering to a desire. Is it wrong? Well it all depends on one's perspective.

I knew from the outset that I was embarking on a highly competitive and ruthless pathway, but it still didn't stop me from parting with obscene amounts of money to do what I'd always wanted to do - and I was going to forge ahead with it, no matter what. Is the flying school really to blame for that?!?

[hoopdreams]

I knew from the outset that I was embarking on a highly competitive and ruthless pathway, but it still didn't stop me from parting with obscene amounts of money to do what I'd always wanted to do - and I was going to forge ahead with it, no matter what. Is the flying school really to blame for that?!?

that's how I feel even though I'm aware of the realities.

From what I've read, OZ aviation seems pretty bad compared to the scene in the US. THere seems to be more opportunities for regional pilots, although they do complain about the conditions, but the situation doesn't seem as bad to the point where there are no jobs, which is the impression I have. I've been told that one shouldn't have too much trouble becoming a regional FO if they work towards it in US.

[DUXNUTZ]

" I've been told that one shouldn't have too much trouble becoming a regional FO if they work towards it in US."


This is true, regionals are hiring at a free-flowing rate here in the US, a fact that people are willing to accept in the order of 19k USD to fly a shiny jet. Regionals are the american GA. Some good operators but alot of scoundrels.

On the other hand i, i relocated here to get that multi-time that is soo hard to get in Oz. The company i work for will hire you as an F/O on a multi-turbine at 500 hrs TT with potential to upgrade to PIC at 1200 (try getting a go at a baron back in Oz at that time). It is night freight but beats bashing round the bush ina piston single for years and years (sorry bushy). The most fun i have had was said bashing round the bush for 2 years and quite a rewarding experience but not quick exit from GA. And believe me you want to get out of GA.


cheers

[Gyro drifter]

I keep hearing an advertisement on a popular radio station in Perth for a certain school at Jandakot. "From zero to airline ready in just 12 months". What an absolute crock of *&%&. This certain school must have one of the worst failure rates for ex students. It is also known to be full of young rich kids.

Not to slag off this mob but seriously guys what you are doing is just wrong.

I dont think iver ever heard of anyone from this school going into a airline job straight after graduation.

Pretty weak i reckon anyway.

Gyro

[hoopdreams]

DUXNUtz,

Would you recommend an Australian pilot who wants a regional job to go to the US? Can foreign pilots obtain these sort of gigs despite local competition? Apart from REX what else is there in Australia? I don't know whether I could make an airline job, but I am very interested in a career as a regional, perhaps it's not so bad once you climb the seniority ladder. vbmenu_register("postmenu_2639860", true);

[The Bunglerat]

There were times when I was tempted to leave Oz and try my luck Stateside. "Jobs galore," they'd say. "Low hour drivers wanted for regional airlines," etc. Twin hours, turbine hours, jet hours, and so on. Sounds too good to be true!

However, it's all relative. So what if there are more employment opportunities in the US than here? It pretty much cancels itself out when you account for the fact that there are so many more pilots over there as well. No doubt there are some great opportunities in the US for those who are in the right place at the right time, but I don't think it's manna from heaven like some make it out to be. In its own way, it is just as tough.

My dream job in aviation has always been flying for a corporate jet operation, or one of the fractionals like NetJets or similar (I know, silly me). As for this area of the industry, Stateside is where it's at. But in the end, I never went ahead and did anything about it. Even if the FAA licensing system is a walk in the park, it don't mean squat if you don't have a green card - and I don't.

As it turns out, I've just recently been offered a position with a major airline, so I guess it's a moot point. Although I'd still take a Gulfstream anyday over Toulouse or Seattle's finest products - but that's just me; I've never been motivated by the mainstream ideal of what constitutes success in aviation.

[MBA747]

It's about time some of the experienced guys let it be known the way it is. GA has always been the bottom of the barrel when compared to the other half of aviation. Unfortunately its got even worse. There is a serious over supply of pilots and unfortunately a lot of flying schools are peddling their wares even at high school level. The result being young dreamers taking to the skies with little idea of whats ahead of them.

It's only after a lot of money has been spent that they realise what the situation is. Instrument Ratings handed out like confetti with Instructor Ratings a close second. If one looked at the outlay in strictly cash terms your looking at $70K at least. At the end of which you are a qualified pilot with little or no experience and no other qualification to fall back on during the years of doing the "Hard Yards". Even after doing the hard yards it's Russian Roulette whether you make the airlines. So anybody entering this industry remember competition is intense and the risk of not making it high.

[iamanaussiemavrick]

HI,

I am Kanak and i am from India.

I completed my schoolong in science stream and now i am 18 yrs old..

I really love flying and its my passion.

There has been a lot of rumour that the situation is too good for pilots in India.

I was planning to go to aussie for my flight training at Basair,sydney..

and come back and convert my license..which i heard is a time consuming and stupid thing...

Is it better for me to do the training now or do it after graduation..

Also i heard tht there r two ways to get indian cpl by doing flight training abroad..
1. do the cpl theory ,,3 papers here and then go abroad and do the enough flying..

2..go abroad do the training...comeback ..do the conversion which will take more than 6 months...

I really dont know what the best is for me to do now...

Can anyone help me.

Regards

Kanak

[DUXNUTZ]

Bunglerat,


I follow your line of thought re: Flying Corporate, i'm trying to head that way. While there are alot more guys looking over here its not all bad. The regionals manage to suck up alot of the wannabes so the Night Freight jobs and miscellaneous "Earn your stripes" gigs are there. I'm doing much better over here, but then of course i know it will be hard to get back now.

Good luck with the new gig, and i think if your happ yin Aviation then you've got more than half of everyone else beat! I listen to the UPS unions guys bleating about lack of enough bottled waters on international flights and heck we load our own freight!

[dxbpilot]

Gyro Drifter , are you refering to the JAA school in Perth ?

if so there guys have a good chance of going straight into the RH seat for a airline in UK/Europe !

as many companys are takings people straight out of intergrated courses for F/O positions in 737/A320/Dash8/ATR 42 etc

[Towering Q]

Gyro, does this 'mob' have a big sign on the road into Jandakot Airport with a 744 taking off and some blurb about your career going places?

Says it all really.:rolleyes:

[Over and gout]

and heck we load our own freight!


Doesn't sound so bad. Flying night freight is my dream job at the moment! I just wish there were more companies over here......:(

[rmcdonal]

Doesn't sound so bad. Flying night freight is my dream job at the moment! I just wish there were more companies over here......
Its magic for logging hrs. You get Night, Twin, and some IF all at the same time. Plus night flying is smoother and you have less chance of traffic in the circuit.
And to top it all off no one in the back complaining. :ok:

[Gyro drifter]

Yeh another great advertising trick.

[DUXNUTZ]

"Doesn't sound so bad. Flying night freight is my dream job at the moment!"

Yeah well, after your first week of off-loading 2-3000 kgs off one airplane in one hit you may re-consider!

Still the plane is a multi-turbine thats non-pressurised/slow as, so at least the flying is easy.